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OLDPRO
03-25-2006, 10:12 AM
Hello, I'm sick of the condemming the students

Want to know why students wen to St. Chris?

I was one of them before.

1. The school is listed in WHO,ECFMG and IMED
2. The GMC recongised the school for the PLAB before.
3. The School is in the UK
4. They had 3 buildings
5. They had a lot of students some who were telling people anything they could to make the school positive and they made it sound like the Big three in the Carib.
6. the Admin would tell potential students things that were not all true.
7. There were loans including Key when I went.
8. The sources telling us that the school had problems seemed to be attacking the school.


If the GMC would not have approved the school in the begining and stuck to it I would have not gone. I had other schools lined up but everything seemed in order. Yep A mistake I found out in Sept of last year and I worked into getting into the school I'm at now, didn't know all this was comming till after the stuff broke in NOV. It was hard for me to believe but I came to believe there were major problems by Jan 06.

When you are ready to attack a student you need to really look at yourself and where you are and say " Could I have been one of these students?".

I was and now regret going there, regret believing what over a thousand or so other people did over 5 years.

Have empathy and a heart. I do

It really bothers me that other Medical Students are posting on other forums and this one how inferior the Medical students are, why becuase they made a mistake and were lied to? Come on. Lets be compassionate here. There are some really good students that went to St. Chris and some that are not just like any other school.

pruritis_ani
03-25-2006, 10:30 AM
Well, the fact is that a LOT of people were warning students about potential problems all along with this school. So, while the school certainly played it's part, it appears to me that the students were also lying to themselves.

The worst part is the outright hostility shown to those that warned against the school. Go back a few years and take a look at the posts by bts, mtt, futrphysician, etc...anytime this school was questioned they got HOT!

Now, to hear that people are still blaming Az for this, just blows my mind. It is not like any of those that warned against attending this school had anything to do with the downfall. It is pretty clear that the school's set up invited scrutiny, and the conflict between Senegal and the administration prevented SC from holding up to that scrutiny.

All that being said, about the only thing unique to SC as a med school was that it was located in UK. I think it is pretty obvious by now that choosing a school based primarily on locations is foolish. From my limited experience with SC students, they were either underqualified for a better school, kicked out of a better school, or wanted to convince people that they were attending an English school. Not exactly wonderful reasons deserving of heaps of empathy.

I feel bad that all this work was a waste for many. But, the questions were there from the start. All the students that went to SC choose to be lab rats in that experiment. Well, sometimes things don't work out so well for the lab rats.

OLDPRO
03-25-2006, 10:49 AM
Well, the fact is that a LOT of people were warning students about potential problems all along with this school. So, while the school certainly played it's part, it appears to me that the students were also lying to themselves.

The worst part is the outright hostility shown to those that warned against the school. Go back a few years and take a look at the posts by bts, mtt, futrphysician, etc...anytime this school was questioned they got HOT!

Now, to hear that people are still blaming Az for this, just blows my mind. It is not like any of those that warned against attending this school had anything to do with the downfall. It is pretty clear that the school's set up invited scrutiny, and the conflict between Senegal and the administration prevented SC from holding up to that scrutiny.

All that being said, about the only thing unique to SC as a med school was that it was located in UK. I think it is pretty obvious by now that choosing a school based primarily on locations is foolish. From my limited experience with SC students, they were either underqualified for a better school, kicked out of a better school, or wanted to convince people that they were attending an English school. Not exactly wonderful reasons deserving of heaps of empathy.

I feel bad that all this work was a waste for many. But, the questions were there from the start. All the students that went to SC choose to be lab rats in that experiment. Well, sometimes things don't work out so well for the lab rats.
I agree with some of what you said, the heated debates mad me think the school was being "picked on" When pm'd some of those people I was told that there were a lot agianst the school and they told me what they thought was true. Yea I made a mistake I have a wife and a 14yr old son that I would not bring to the caribbean so we opted for the UK.

I really think you have no idea of the students though, at least half could have and will be able to go to one of the BIG 4 or other schools like SMU. Yes there are the others but to make a broad statement like you did is just not right, many have passed and went on to residencies so that testifies for itself.:rolleyes:


Oh one more to add SGU wouldn't be helping if all the students were "SubPar".

dt
03-25-2006, 11:13 AM
Well, its an experience and never too late to learn something from it.

MDXRS22
03-25-2006, 03:15 PM
I used to ignore the warning signs posted by some of the best in here. They know who they are...From now on, I will make sure I read between the lines and even use my grandpa binocular to look further into some details...

So young and so old in a place so full and loaded with truths and amazing stories of those fallen-short MDs.

It's no joke to spend so much money and not getting anything to show for it.:( I do feel sorry for those students.

OLDPRO
03-25-2006, 03:18 PM
I used to ignore the warning signs posted by some of the best in here. They know who they are...From now on, I will make sure I read between the lines and even use my grandpa binocular to look further into some details...

So young and so old in a place so full and loaded with truths and amazing stories of those fallen-short MDs.

It's no joke to spend so much money and not getting anything to show for it.:( I do feel sorry for those students.

Yea the explainations seemed to be correct at the time now it's show me the facts, not the reason! I've had enough of promises.:rolleyes:

MDXRS22
03-25-2006, 04:08 PM
We were all in the same basket!

Thank God many made it out of there.

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03-25-2006, 05:06 PM
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CorporateRaider
03-25-2006, 05:11 PM
I think it is high time people stop using the W.H.O. and the E.C.F.M.G./I.M.E.D. "marker" as some type of "verification" that everything is legit.
I don't know how many times I hear people (yes, even school officials) say that our school is "recognized" by the W.H.O. and the E.C.F.M.G. and our graduates are allowed to sit for the P.L.A.B.; those less fortunate that hear this really don't understand it, but take it to mean it's a GOLDEN SEAL OF QUALITY.....of something. Schools do this all of the time and it's abusive and wrong and they know it.

I compare it to telling a patient "you have prostatic atrophy with miccion difficulty." Why use needless jargon with someone that has no idea what this means?

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BEING RECOGNIZED BY THE W.H.O. or the E.C.F.M.G. ; (The owners of this website should requiere a STICKY on each forum explaining this and just like the mod's pushing TOS , should also push this point).

How many of you have ever participated in obtaining a letter for the W.H.O. and/or the E.C.F.M.G.?

If you knew how simple it is you would realize it's NO BIG THING.

1. A school requests that the local office of government that is in charge of chartering schools issue a letter that reads that "X" university operates a recognized medical school program that is conducent to a M.D. Degree.

Example:

C. Batty
Senior Research Analyst
FAIMER

Dear Mrs./Ms. Batty:

The government of the Republic (Island) of _______________, has issued a charter to "XXXXXX UNIVERSITY" located at 2303 west highway I95, BangTurkey, Washalot, ........to operate a medical school as of 23 of March, 2006. The Medical School Program has either a 4 year, 5 year and/or 6 year duration depending on the qualifications of the applicant and upon succesful completion leads to a Doctor of Medicine Degree (M.D.). Graduates of this program are elegible to sit for the PTF (pass this fast) Licensure of Medicine Test, upon which they may practice as general practitioners in our Country.

Due to the above, we respectfully request you add "XXXXX UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE" in your next update of World Medical Schools.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXX
Secretary of Education

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX

A copy of the above should be faxed to the W.H.O. and the E.C.F.M.G. and the original letter should be sent directly from the office of the government official that signs the letter.

After that the W.H.O. / E.C.F.M.G. faxes/e-mails a questionaaire to the school asking for more particulars:

A that folks is as hard as it gets.

THE WHO/ECFMG/IMED does not accredit anything !




Hello, I'm sick of the condemming the students

Want to know why students wen to St. Chris?

I was one of them before.

1. The school is listed in WHO,ECFMG and IMED
2. The GMC recongised the school for the PLAB before.
3. The School is in the UK
4. They had 3 buildings
5. They had a lot of students some who were telling people anything they could to make the school positive and they made it sound like the Big three in the Carib.
6. the Admin would tell potential students things that were not all true.
7. There were loans including Key when I went.
8. The sources telling us that the school had problems seemed to be attacking the school.


If the GMC would not have approved the school in the begining and stuck to it I would have not gone. I had other schools lined up but everything seemed in order. Yep A mistake I found out in Sept of last year and I worked into getting into the school I'm at now, didn't know all this was comming till after the stuff broke in NOV. It was hard for me to believe but I came to believe there were major problems by Jan 06.

When you are ready to attack a student you need to really look at yourself and where you are and say " Could I have been one of these students?".

I was and now regret going there, regret believing what over a thousand or so other people did over 5 years.

Have empathy and a heart. I do

It really bothers me that other Medical Students are posting on other forums and this one how inferior the Medical students are, why becuase they made a mistake and were lied to? Come on. Lets be compassionate here. There are some really good students that went to St. Chris and some that are not just like any other school.

OLDPRO
03-25-2006, 05:16 PM
My post is clear, I said I went like others due to LISTING and yes the GMC visted the school too and allowed grads to sit for the plab, they had suspended them before. So I think they have some blame in this as well. Also these governements do not answer the phone an answer emails well, they do not reply back. Try it sometime and see how far you get, oh sorry I had to read about all the attempts.

Bottom line the WHO organization needs to get it's act together and not list schools unless it is verified. It looks like they did not do a good job verifying this school, so I think for now they do not and only list. It appears there may not have been a charter? Or was this changes in the Senegal Government? I don't know. But it is clear now that Having a school outside the country of charter is very very risky and too risky for me.

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03-25-2006, 05:28 PM
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OLDPRO
03-25-2006, 05:46 PM
You are arguing as if everything would have been OK if the charter issue had not come up. Perhaps, but the point is that one should not use WHO listing as an indication of ANYTHING. It is kind of like having a business license. You need one to operate but it signifies nothing about the quality of the business.

The point is that new schools are risky irregardless of their WHO,ECFMG and IMD listings.
No not Aurguing just making it clear, charter issues are the issue. Thats what happened here, and it will happen again at a few other schools I suspect, I know of a couple who's charters are suspect.

Don't go to a school who's charter is not solid. And this case other than not in country of charter was not easy, but it did happen.

Yes any school not around 10+ years very risky, this school looking back was even more risk than some others

So I mostly agree with ya!

CorporateRaider
03-25-2006, 08:57 PM
WHUDS:

My point is not to "pick a bone" with you; what I am trying to rescue for the benefit of others, is to NOT place the WHO/ECFMG listing as a "big whoop" item to look for (you placed it @ NUMBER ONE), as if though that was part of your due diligence.

This is the main thrust of my post, understood?




No not Aurguing just making it clear, charter issues are the issue. Thats what happened here, and it will happen again at a few other schools I suspect, I know of a couple who's charters are suspect.

Don't go to a school who's charter is not solid. And this case other than not in country of charter was not easy, but it did happen.

Yes any school not around 10+ years very risky, this school looking back was even more risk than some others

So I mostly agree with ya!

CorporateRaider
03-25-2006, 09:04 PM
It should be made clear to all that going to a school that operates outside of its Charter Country, is not looked upon in a positive fashion ! Specially one that clearly does not have a solid base operation in its country of Charter. If what you have is a "pizza stand" in your country of charter and outside of your country of charter you have a multi-million dollar investment something is not right; this leads me to conclude that the "pizza parlor" is just a front.

For all of the WHO / ECFMG / IMED / FAIMER / ABC / 123 organizations out there that simply "RUBBER STAMP" , you should not for one second think that this is the KEY to licensure !

You will still need to get by the STATE MEDICAL BOARDS !

AUCMD2006
03-25-2006, 09:26 PM
i feel bad for most of the students. at least this may serve a purpose and myself and others will not be automatically crucified for asking students to look past the shiny who/imed recognition and urge them to look at the bigger picture.

if kigezy, mcl, and now this doesn't convince people that being a ginea pig or choosing a med school based on location may not be the right choice i don't know what will.....

OLDPRO
03-25-2006, 09:26 PM
WHUDS:

My point is not to "pick a bone" with you; what I am trying to rescue for the benefit of others, is to NOT place the WHO/ECFMG listing as a "big whoop" item to look for (you placed it @ NUMBER ONE), as if though that was part of your due diligence.

This is the main thrust of my post, understood?
Yea I know and you know, This has been a lesson to all who went to the school and all who have visited this site, but there are schools out there discussed on the VMD site who do not even have all those items and they should be 100% avioded. I agree that even if they have all the rest the operation of the school must be looked at and talk to students and check everything out, Problem is you can preach and preach and still people will not do everything you want them to do they will still make mistakes, a school that appears even after all the checks passes can still be a risk unless it is in the US or a solid university in some place like Europe. And BTW WHO was asked to continue the list because the world, including state boards use the list still. So the rubber stamp has meaning I only listed as number 1 not as number 1 but a start. I think you missunderstood. If not listed on WHO don't even apply.
As far as your point:

Okay we get the point.

One thing though, a new school may have some things not complete like history, you know they are new, How does a school get a history without students?

pruritis_ani
03-25-2006, 10:22 PM
One thing though, a new school may have some things not complete like history, you know they are new, How does a school get a history without students?

This is one of the all time stupid defenses of new schools. By stating something like this you are basically saying that you are putting the schools future ahead of your own. Who cares how a school gets a history without students??? What you should be asking is what can this school do for ME, not what can you do to help the school build a history.

The fact of the matter is NEW SCHOOL=RISK. Period. Are you willing to accept that risk? Well, more power to you, but don't come a-crying on VMD when the owners run off with your money, or when the states start to gang up on offshore schools, and you find yourself with a worthless degree.

Students need to go in with the attitude that ALL schools are risky, and the best bet is to minimize risk. How is one very effective way of doing this? Go to the proven schools.

Established schools have the experience, the money, the alumni and the facilities to whether a lot more of a poop storm than any new school can. If the poop hits the fan, the new schools will be up a creek, sans paddle.

Do not be a lab rat!! Lab rats often die for the glory of somebody else!

amyames
03-25-2006, 11:30 PM
This is one of the all time stupid defenses of new schools. By stating something like this you are basically saying that you are putting the schools future ahead of your own. Who cares how a school gets a history without students??? What you should be asking is what can this school do for ME, not what can you do to help the school build a history.

The fact of the matter is NEW SCHOOL=RISK. Period. Are you willing to accept that risk? Well, more power to you, but don't come a-crying on VMD when the owners run off with your money, or when the states start to gang up on offshore schools, and you find yourself with a worthless degree.

Students need to go in with the attitude that ALL schools are risky, and the best bet is to minimize risk. How is one very effective way of doing this? Go to the proven schools.

Established schools have the experience, the money, the alumni and the facilities to whether a lot more of a poop storm than any new school can. If the poop hits the fan, the new schools will be up a creek, sans paddle.

Do not be a lab rat!! Lab rats often die for the glory of somebody else!





it seems like you are belittling all those that came before us that made SGU, ROSS, ect what they are today. all these schools were risks at one point in time, yet students still came and paved the way!


now and days, people know what the established offshore schools do, so if a new school isn't doing much of the same, or isn't pushing for much of the same then don't go there. and to really find that out, you have to visit the school. SMU was new like St. Chris, but it was 1. in the country of charter and 2. had kick butt admin that really pushed the school forward and made it legit.


for any risk, you gotta know what you're getting, or at least try and get all the facts. so before attending any offshore, go visit! the advice is stated on valuemd time and time again, use it! I did, and it was best decision I made. I realized I could handle everything Saba would try and throw at me.

pruritis_ani
03-25-2006, 11:38 PM
it seems like you are belittling all those that came before us that made SGU, ROSS, ect what they are today. all these schools were risks at one point in time, yet students still came and paved the way!


now and days, people know what the established offshore schools do, so if a new school isn't doing much of the same, or isn't pushing for much of the same then don't go there. and to really find that out, you have to visit the school. SMU was new like St. Chris, but it was 1. in the country of charter and 2. had kick butt admin that really pushed the school forward and made it legit.


for any risk, you gotta know what you're getting, or at least try and get all the facts. so before attending any offshore, go visit! the advice is stated on valuemd time and time again, use it! I did, and it was best decision I made. I realized I could handle everything Saba would try and throw at me.
No, I am not belittling anybody that chose new schools when they were the only choice around. When SGU, Ross, AUC, started, they were really the only players in the game, other than true international domicile schools. The students had the choice of either learning medicine in a foreign language or trying out this new method of education.

The difference now is that there is NO REASON to go for the newer schools. If you cannot academically get into one of the better schools, improve your grades. If you can't afford them, take out a loan. If you don't want to live on a crappy island, suck it up. Trust me, you will have much bigger problems to deal with later. If you really cannot handle 18 months in some s**thole in exchange for practicing medicine, then you will be in for a real treat when you see some of the conditions you will have to work under when you get back to the good 'ole USA. Short term adversity is a small price to pay for you (and your family) in exchange for assuring them a comfortable and secure future.

Sure, it is great for the new schools that students want to take that risk. However, it seems to be a huge risk for the student, with the only upside being the sometimes remote possibilty of achieving the same thing that could be achieved without risk at a different school.

BTW, St Matts is not yet in the big leagues. Still a risky school compared to the established and universally approved schools.

If you want to risk your money on a new school, and are happy with the fact that you will be limited in where you can work, by all means go ahead. But, to expect people to think that it is a good decision is ridiculous. As DrB has said, sometimes bad choices have good outcomes, but that does not change the fact that it was a bad choice. And, if/when the poop hits the fan, don't be surprised when the people start pointing fingers and saying "I told you so". These are not situations that deserve empathy. There are sometimes consequences to bad or risky choices.

pruritis_ani
03-25-2006, 11:42 PM
Another BTW, if you go to SABA it is pretty clear that you made a good choice. But, simply visiting a school doesn't tell you much. Case in point: St Chris. Those guys were adamant about what a great facility they had, and how impressed you would be after a visit. Fat lot of good it did them. Look at real data, not subjective fantasies.

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03-26-2006, 02:57 AM
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CorporateRaider
03-26-2006, 09:41 AM
A school get's a history by doing things right, even a "new kid on the block" can turn into a succesful school.


One thing though, a new school may have some things not complete like history, you know they are new, How does a school get a history without students?

OLDPRO
03-26-2006, 09:43 AM
This is one of the all time stupid defenses of new schools. By stating something like this you are basically saying that you are putting the schools future ahead of your own. Who cares how a school gets a history without students??? What you should be asking is what can this school do for ME, not what can you do to help the school build a history.

The fact of the matter is NEW SCHOOL=RISK. Period. Are you willing to accept that risk? Well, more power to you, but don't come a-crying on VMD when the owners run off with your money, or when the states start to gang up on offshore schools, and you find yourself with a worthless degree.

Students need to go in with the attitude that ALL schools are risky, and the best bet is to minimize risk. How is one very effective way of doing this? Go to the proven schools.

Established schools have the experience, the money, the alumni and the facilities to whether a lot more of a poop storm than any new school can. If the poop hits the fan, the new schools will be up a creek, sans paddle.

Do not be a lab rat!! Lab rats often die for the glory of somebody else!
WOW you missed the point, it is not a defense but an oberservation, St. Matts is newer and becoming proven by graduates and is building a history, so far a positive one, St. Chris has had a lot of negative history in it's short 5 years, They only real positive history is some good students has gone there and now there are Docotors and step 1 passers with very good scores. The last two you can't deny they happened, but as far as the school is concerned it's current adminsitration is the biggest negative as well as the charter issue.

I guess you and others may need a dissclaimer from anyone who may have gone to this school at any time that we are not defending!

There I hate to have to write that on every post.

As far as crying on here why don't you stop coming here and reading these posts then? Half of VMD are new schools. Your lucky you were born when you were because if you wanted to to Medical School before 1970 and was not able to get in in the USA then there was no Caribbean option, and when they did open up some schools help class in Hotels on the Island, I know this is true for one of the Big three because one of the Professors at my school taught there back then. So they would have been a big risk back then.

OLDPRO
03-26-2006, 09:52 AM
A school get's a history by doing things right, even a "new kid on the block" can turn into a succesful school.

Yep agree with you and SC has NOT.:rolleyes:

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03-26-2006, 09:58 AM
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ValuelessMD
03-26-2006, 12:04 PM
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ValuelessMD
03-26-2006, 12:15 PM
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CorporateRaider
03-26-2006, 01:48 PM
Allow me the indulgence:


People went to St. Chris because frankly, the Carib's is no "walk in the park" when it comes to creature comforts.
England is and will always have the "mystique" , "the culture" and the rest of that "jazz". Imagine being on break and being able to travel around Europe, the Carib's cannot shake a stick at that.
The "brag" factor plays a role; my "son/daughter" goes to school in Europe (not bad for $8,000 in tuition), just so happens right down the road from prince(s) william and harry. Sure as heck plays better than; my "son/daughter" goes to school in Dakar. Note: Senegal is famous for its - PARIS-DAKAR rally, not medical school.


So why was it people went to SC.

Picard
03-26-2006, 07:32 PM
Just a coment on new schools in general nowadays, not specifically SC.

The fallacy of comparing new schools now to the infancies of established schools 25 years ago is the lack of understanding in "industrial progress." Offshore medical education is an industry that is about 30 years old. When you look at offshore education, you cannot just look at each individual school. You must look at the industry as a whole. As the industry grows, newcomers in the industry must conform to the contempoary standard, not old standards. Yes, SGU/Ross/AUC... etc were "crappy schools" 30 years ago, but that was the standard 30 years ago. The industry has grown.

The analogy I like to use is this -- imagine a new passenger aircraft company going to NTSB and asked that their passenger airplanes be held to the safety standard of 1940 because that's when Boeing/McDonald-Douglas...etc first started, that's the standard they were held to. Imagine that the new aircraft company asking NTSB for 30 years to catch up to the safety standards of today, arguing that Boeing/McD had a much longer time frame (50+years) to be where they are today. Would you like to fly on this company's airplane on your next trip?

Nobody is saying that we shouldn't have new schools. But new schools must realize that this industry is 30 years old, and they must meet the industry standards of today FROM DAY ONE when they open their doors. This means that new schools FROM DAY ONE ought to meet at least the NY standard before they accept students. Doing anything short of that is irresponsible and unethical.

P

CorporateRaider
03-26-2006, 08:10 PM
Where can a mere mortal find the standards of new york posted or published?


This means that new schools FROM DAY ONE ought to meet at least the NY standard before they accept students. Doing anything short of that is irresponsible and unethical.

P

smoohead
03-26-2006, 11:20 PM
Haha.. I find that amusing. Luton is no picnic :p What with the crappy housing (I see huge rats in my often flooded backyard all the time and the plumbing backs up in my building often), the lack of worth ethic in the UK (it took me 2.5 months to get a chair replaced and more than a month to open up a bank account...what do you expect in a country where the drinking age is 18 and the bars are open 24/7??), the filth (the local "mall" smells like urine and B.O. and the vomit and urine puddles I wake up to every Monday morning on my way to class are always fun to dodge)... I often think the Caribbean might have been a better choice. At least it's sunny and warm and you feel like you're on vacation down there!! :D







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