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jpryor
03-15-2006, 09:28 AM
I’ve been silent for a couple of days for two reasons: first, to see if anybody would see the obvious and second, to let the predictable players have their say. As for the latter, there were no surprises. Those who like to pontificate, pontificated and those who are reasonable, were.

But nobody detected the fact that the original poster who started this round of discussion alleged improbable contact and statements emanating from the GMC. To illustrate a point, I defy anybody to call the GMC and ask to speak with an investigator…any investigator…on any issue. Allow it a week. Call every day, multiple times a day. It isn’t going to happen. Investigators do not have discussions with unknown callers over the telephone. Why? Imagine a newspaper reporter calling as a ‘citizen’ versus going through the press office. So, the allegation that an alleged student spoke with an investigator involved in the St. Christopher matter is improbable.

Compounding that improbability is the allegation that the ‘investigator’ stated that the GMC had reached a conclusion and would not be allowing anybody from SC to apply for registration in the UK. A couple of things are wrong with this story. First, investigators inquire and present findings. They do not make decisions and they do not reveal their findings to anybody outside of their organization. It’s just not done and would be unprofessional, not to mention illegal. Second, do you really think the GMC would reveal a final decision to an unknown caller over the telephone and still not have updated its web site days later? Do you think they would have revealed this information and not informed the school and Senegal, as well as the ECFMG? The GMC isn’t operating in a vacuum and has acknowledged an open communication with the school, Senegal and the ECFMG. Ignoring the inferred prejudice of the school and Senegal, the ECFMG would have no basis for withholding that kind of information and as of yesterday, Mr. K of the ECFMG has stated there have been no new developments in the matter.

Given the choice of calling the alleged student who posted this story a liar or somebody who misunderstood the information that has already been made known via copies of e-mails posted on VMD that were from the GMC and ECFMG, I’ll choose to be kind and think there was a simple misunderstanding. That some chose to believe it and continue berating the school is consistent with past behaviors. That a couple of people chose to embellish the misinformation just underscores their despicable nature.

I apologize for the length of this post, but there are still three points I want to make. The first is that the school did not err in submitting documentation to the GMC or the ECFMG. Both of these agencies have the responsibility of ensuring that the acceptance of schools is based on proper documentation. There is no debate that the GMC allowed registration and that the ECFMG had issued certifications. If there was a question regarding the documents, it should have been resolved prior to any official acceptance of the school.

Second, we have all read the copies of emails that originated from the GMC acknowledging communications between Senegal and the GMC and the statement that the submitted documents have yet to satisfy the requirements of the GMC. This is communication between Senegal and the GMC, not the school and the GMC. The GMC stated it would not accept documents from the school; so alleging that there is an attempt to deceive by the school is baseless. The same holds true with the ECFMG—only Senegal can provide the documents to the ECFMG. Only Senegal could provide the documents to IMED, too, and it is irrefutable that Senegal is acknowledging that the charter exists and has existed since 2000, as the school has stated.

Third, Senegal cannot deny the charter (and there is certainly no indication that it intends to do so). It has represented to authorities that the charter has existed and continues to exist. If Senegal wanted to terminate the relationship, the only legal means of doing so is revocation of the charter; however, any student completing training prior to that date would still be eligible for certification.

Instead of fabricating false information, consider the facts: both the GMC and the ECFMG have stated that they are waiting for documents to be submitted from Senegal. The school is waiting as well as the students. This is between Senegal and the two agencies. NOBODY is happy with the length of time involved so far and reasonable people would believe that the school would want this resolved expeditiously. There may be many factors involved in the absence of a suitable response from Senegal; however, postulating that a charter never existed cannot be one of them. Given the turmoil in Senegal, the high turnover in the government and the history of graft, I can think of many reasonable factors that could be impeding a rapid resolution. I imagine those people within the GMC and the ECFMG are just as worldly and tolerant.

empathy
03-15-2006, 09:45 AM
St. Chris needs to give you the boot and hire a new one.

teratos
03-15-2006, 09:54 AM
I think you hit the nail on the head, JP. G

azskeptic
03-15-2006, 10:21 AM
from the original BBC article I can see no changes or difference in SC's situation

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4410020.stm

jpryor
03-15-2006, 11:01 AM
Atta boy, Az. Deny IMED. It suits you well.

maximillian genossa
03-15-2006, 12:53 PM
...."So, the allegation that an alleged student spoke with an investigator involved in the St. Christopher matter is improbable".

And I would add IMPROPER from the investigator to do so.








I’ve been silent for a couple of days for two reasons: first, to see if anybody would see the obvious and second, to let the predictable players have their say. As for the latter, there were no surprises. Those who like to pontificate, pontificated and those who are reasonable, were.

But nobody detected the fact that the original poster who started this round of discussion alleged improbable contact and statements emanating from the GMC. To illustrate a point, I defy anybody to call the GMC and ask to speak with an investigator…any investigator…on any issue. Allow it a week. Call every day, multiple times a day. It isn’t going to happen. Investigators do not have discussions with unknown callers over the telephone. Why? Imagine a newspaper reporter calling as a ‘citizen’ versus going through the press office. So, the allegation that an alleged student spoke with an investigator involved in the St. Christopher matter is improbable.

Compounding that improbability is the allegation that the ‘investigator’ stated that the GMC had reached a conclusion and would not be allowing anybody from SC to apply for registration in the UK. A couple of things are wrong with this story. First, investigators inquire and present findings. They do not make decisions and they do not reveal their findings to anybody outside of their organization. It’s just not done and would be unprofessional, not to mention illegal. Second, do you really think the GMC would reveal a final decision to an unknown caller over the telephone and still not have updated its web site days later? Do you think they would have revealed this information and not informed the school and Senegal, as well as the ECFMG? The GMC isn’t operating in a vacuum and has acknowledged an open communication with the school, Senegal and the ECFMG. Ignoring the inferred prejudice of the school and Senegal, the ECFMG would have no basis for withholding that kind of information and as of yesterday, Mr. K of the ECFMG has stated there have been no new developments in the matter.

Given the choice of calling the alleged student who posted this story a liar or somebody who misunderstood the information that has already been made known via copies of e-mails posted on VMD that were from the GMC and ECFMG, I’ll choose to be kind and think there was a simple misunderstanding. That some chose to believe it and continue berating the school is consistent with past behaviors. That a couple of people chose to embellish the misinformation just underscores their despicable nature.

I apologize for the length of this post, but there are still three points I want to make. The first is that the school did not err in submitting documentation to the GMC or the ECFMG. Both of these agencies have the responsibility of ensuring that the acceptance of schools is based on proper documentation. There is no debate that the GMC allowed registration and that the ECFMG had issued certifications. If there was a question regarding the documents, it should have been resolved prior to any official acceptance of the school.

Second, we have all read the copies of emails that originated from the GMC acknowledging communications between Senegal and the GMC and the statement that the submitted documents have yet to satisfy the requirements of the GMC. This is communication between Senegal and the GMC, not the school and the GMC. The GMC stated it would not accept documents from the school; so alleging that there is an attempt to deceive by the school is baseless. The same holds true with the ECFMG—only Senegal can provide the documents to the ECFMG. Only Senegal could provide the documents to IMED, too, and it is irrefutable that Senegal is acknowledging that the charter exists and has existed since 2000, as the school has stated.

Third, Senegal cannot deny the charter (and there is certainly no indication that it intends to do so). It has represented to authorities that the charter has existed and continues to exist. If Senegal wanted to terminate the relationship, the only legal means of doing so is revocation of the charter; however, any student completing training prior to that date would still be eligible for certification.

Instead of fabricating false information, consider the facts: both the GMC and the ECFMG have stated that they are waiting for documents to be submitted from Senegal. The school is waiting as well as the students. This is between Senegal and the two agencies. NOBODY is happy with the length of time involved so far and reasonable people would believe that the school would want this resolved expeditiously. There may be many factors involved in the absence of a suitable response from Senegal; however, postulating that a charter never existed cannot be one of them. Given the turmoil in Senegal, the high turnover in the government and the history of graft, I can think of many reasonable factors that could be impeding a rapid resolution. I imagine those people within the GMC and the ECFMG are just as worldly and tolerant.

Borgy
03-15-2006, 01:27 PM
jpryor i have a new found respect for you. Thanks for being so professional.
0

azskeptic
03-15-2006, 02:16 PM
...."So, the allegation that an alleged student spoke with an investigator involved in the St. Christopher matter is improbable".

And I would add IMPROPER from the investigator to do so.



investigation was being done by NHS Fraud Control Unit I thought?

jpryor
03-15-2006, 02:23 PM
investigation was being done by NHS Fraud Control Unit I thought?

It is/was being done by the NHS Fraud Unit. Does this mean that you are now questioning the veracity of the post, too? Wonders never cease.

azskeptic
03-15-2006, 03:21 PM
It is/was being done by the NHS Fraud Unit. Does this mean that you are now questioning the veracity of the post, too? Wonders never cease. a potential student received this reply to a request for info about SC to the GMC. THink it is self explanatory

Thank you for your enquiry regarding St Christopher's College of Medicine.

The GMC has investigated the claimed affiliations and the quality assurance arrangements at this institution. We are not satisfied about the status of the school's programme in the UK with respect to the school's recgonition by the Senegalese government nor are we assured that the school is subject to adequate quality assurance arrangements. At this present time, the GMC is not registering students and graduates of St. Christopher's College of Medicine nor allowing them to book or sit the PLAB test.

The GMC currently regards most, but not all, of the primary medical qualifications listed in the World Health Organisation (WHO) directory of medical schools as acceptable for the purpose of registration with the GMC. Please always refer to the factsheets on our website which contain the latest information on acceptable medical qualifications.

jpryor
03-15-2006, 03:25 PM
THink it is self explanatory

It certainly appears consistent with the previous emails received from the GMC. Note no deadlines, final decisions or threat of impending doom.

maximillian genossa
03-15-2006, 03:38 PM
investigation was being done by NHS Fraud Control Unit I thought?

But leaking out the results of any investigation to the first Joe Schmuck who calls asking,before a final report is out... is improper.

empathy
03-15-2006, 03:51 PM
It's a technique used in politics. It softens the blow. By the time it is posted on their site the frenzy will be over. As far as students talking to investigators goes most universities would encourage this - if you are an honest institution you definitely want your students out there talking to anyone who will listen.

maximillian genossa
03-15-2006, 03:59 PM
It's a technique used in politics. It softens the blow. By the time it is posted on their site the frenzy will be over. As far as students talking to investigators goes most universities would encourage this - if you are an honest institution you definitely want your students out there talking to anyone who will listen.

So you are saying this is a political investigation?

Again, for what I've learned, any leak out of an investigation is subject to prejudice. Ask a lawyer what I mean.

If this leak in fact happened, it was improper and can be used by the affected party in their defense to allege prejudice or bias.

empathy
03-15-2006, 06:32 PM
I've seen it a lot in Washington. A government agency needs to put out some info that is going to cause a group to go wild so instead of blowing up the dam, they create small cracks so the water can drain out slowly.

Also, if you ask a shrink the GMC is going about this in the least emotionally damaging way possible. They are extremely worried about students and concerned for their well being. It's best that the message is delivered slowly and in small increments rather than one HUGE announcement.

They could have simply directed all calls to an answering service and made an official announcement via the BBC shielding themselves from the fall out of something that they are as much a victim of as anyone. But instead they chose to swing the doors wide open, take all students calls and confront the situation head on.

Let's face it the General Medical Council of England has much more important issues to deal with but they are treating these students from a third world foreign medical college run by a group of admin with 'Quack Qualifications' like first rate doctors. Taking every call, answering every question directly and giving them as much advice as they legally can. Don't think for a second that the GMC is verbalizing anything to anyone without the direct advice of council.

maximillian genossa
03-15-2006, 11:42 PM
It is plausible, but sice we are dealing with a multiple account holder who obviously wanted some exposure (the person who originated this and Az blindly believed it were different people) I honestly cannot think about anything else other than a "leak" and leaks are not good.

As a reminder, I am not advocating for either sides here. I am being impartial.


I've seen it a lot in Washington. A government agency needs to put out some info that is going to cause a group to go wild so instead of blowing up the dam, they create small cracks so the water can drain out slowly.

Also, if you ask a shrink the GMC is going about this in the least emotionally damaging way possible. They are extremely worried about students and concerned for their well being. It's best that the message is delivered slowly and in small increments rather than one HUGE announcement.

They could have simply directed all calls to an answering service and made an official announcement via the BBC shielding themselves from the fall out of something that they are as much a victim of as anyone. But instead they chose to swing the doors wide open, take all students calls and confront the situation head on.

Let's face it the General Medical Council of England has much more important issues to deal with but they are treating these students from a third world foreign medical college run by a group of admin with 'Quack Qualifications' like first rate doctors. Taking every call, answering every question directly and giving them as much advice as they legally can. Don't think for a second that the GMC is verbalizing anything to anyone without the direct advice of council.

empathy
03-16-2006, 08:06 AM
then this thread should be locked along with all others like it.

teratos
03-16-2006, 08:21 AM
Not until it degrades. SO far the conversation is civil. G

empathy
03-16-2006, 08:30 AM
thanks G.............

:ooops:

empathy
03-16-2006, 09:30 AM
Read the other threads. They have emails and they are saying that the students are being told the same thing via email that the student was told on the phone. He may not have talked to a person who was involved in the investigation though. There are so many threads here that it's hard to keep track of what's going on. So much is happening so quickly. I like that you are neutral -- I need to learn from your example.

futrphysician
03-17-2006, 07:09 AM
Yeah yeah yeah. Thanks Deano. Tell us something we didn't know or that you cannot google.
There is so much happening here that you really don't know, and that little data mining program of yours can't touch. Pity....or rather, hooray?

empathy
03-17-2006, 07:25 AM
will be doing another report soon. Students just need to sit tight 'til then.

jpryor
03-17-2006, 08:09 AM
Hopefully, they'll use an illustrious resource such as yourself on the next report.

PathOne
03-17-2006, 09:38 AM
Unfortunately, I find this discussion somewhat irrelevant. The GMC HAS made a decision, and it's available for anybody to see on their website:

http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/how_to_register/registration/acceptable_primary_medical_qualification.asp

The GMC is not accepting a St. Chris diploma for either limited or full registration in the UK. Yes, they are still investigating, and yes, they may reinstate any or all of the five schools listed on their disapproved list. However, speculation as to if and when they would do so is pure conjecture. Look at that GMC list again. How long time has St. Luke's been on it?

Obviously, the important thing for most St. Chris students is ECFMG status. Again, it is pure speculation as to when this matter will be resolved. However, the continued refusal of GMC to accept St. Chris grads must be a cause of concern. Unlike Senegal, the UK is a first world country, and the GMC is a powerful and well-funded government agency, much more powerful than ECFMG (since they can actually issue and revoke licenses). So if they refuse to accept St. Chris grads, that's hardly an encouraging sign.


Also, please bear in mind that the GMC is a UK government entity. Since I presume that none here are lawyers, much less solicitors or barristers with knowledge of UK law, I find all this talk of lawsuits amusing at best, pathetic at worst and generally entirely irrelevant. If the school is dissatisfied with the GMC decision, they can appeal it. I have no information that they have done so. But then again, the school hasn't to my knowledge made any official comment whatsoever on this entire mess.

jpryor
03-17-2006, 09:43 AM
If only the world was as black and white as you see it.

maximillian genossa
03-17-2006, 10:24 AM
And so far no new updates. Besides the url posted by pathone that says...

"The following primary medical qualifications are included on the WHO directory but are NOT regarded by the GMC at the current time as acceptable primary medical qualifications.

St Petersburg State I.P Pavlov Medical University
Ulica Tolstogo 6/8
St Petersburg 197089
St Petersburg State Medical Academy
Piskarevsky Prospekt 47
St Petersburg 195067
St Petersburg State Pediatric Medical Academy
Ulica Lilovskaja 2
St Petersburg 194100
St Christopher's College of Medicine
Dakar
Senegal
Saint Luke School of Medicine
206 Broad Street
Luke Building
3471 Monrovia
Liberia We are currently investigating the affiliations claimed by UK based medical colleges with these universities. We have suspended our acceptance of primary medical qualifications awarded by these universities until further notice."


In other words, this is subject to change...the game isn't over I guess.



Anyone want to challenge the semantics on what the GMC has posted? Does it say its final and firm? Nope.

PathOne
03-17-2006, 11:37 AM
Anyone want to challenge the semantics on what the GMC has posted? Does it say its final and firm? Nope.

Ehhh. How long time has the other four schools been on the list? St. Luke's certainly been there quite a long time....

I still can't see anything but people grasping at straws, unfortunately. The school IS currently banned by the GMC. They have made NO indication of a change in this status and have obviously NOT received or accepted the documentation they have requsted.

Come on people.... Even from Senegal it doesn't take half a year to send a charter and other pertinent information through proper channels...

I really can't understand why people don't look at the only verifiable FACT in this case, which is that the GMC has suspended St. Chris. All talk of "a solution just around the corner" is just that -- talk. And speculative talk at that.

jpryor
03-17-2006, 11:42 AM
Come on people.... Even from Senegal it doesn't take half a year to send a charter and other pertinent information through proper channels...

You're correct. Once events are made known to the public all will understand the reason for the delay.

azskeptic
03-17-2006, 11:49 AM
You're correct. Once events are made known to the public all will understand the reason for the delay. Well, the Senegalese delegation is in the UK so they should fix this if it can be fixed. If not, then the humane thing to do is help the students transition to schools that will take the students and SC will freely provide the transcriipts needed for timely evaluation.

maximillian genossa
03-17-2006, 11:55 AM
You're correct. Once events are made known to the public all will understand the reason for the delay.

I have dealt with a couple of African nation clients and I do know and have seen how painfully slow they can be. Their bureaucracy has no limits. If you have not, I wonder how you can tell. I base my comments on personal experiences, not speculation or reference from other people.

maximillian genossa
03-17-2006, 11:58 AM
..."All talk of "a solution just around the corner" is just that -- talk. And speculative talk at that."

I have been saying that all along. Especially the speculative part.






Ehhh. How long time has the other four schools been on the list? St. Luke's certainly been there quite a long time....

I still can't see anything but people grasping at straws, unfortunately. The school IS currently banned by the GMC. They have made NO indication of a change in this status and have obviously NOT received or accepted the documentation they have requsted.

Come on people.... Even from Senegal it doesn't take half a year to send a charter and other pertinent information through proper channels...

I really can't understand why people don't look at the only verifiable FACT in this case, which is that the GMC has suspended St. Chris. All talk of "a solution just around the corner" is just that -- talk. And speculative talk at that.

azskeptic
03-17-2006, 11:58 AM
I have dealt with a couple of African nation clients and I do know and have seen how painfully slow they can be. Their bureaucracy has no limits. If you have not, I wonder how you can tell. I base my comments on personal experiences, not speculation or reference from other people. If the Shaykh can't fix it, it can't be fixed. he is indeed a powerful and well respected person in the Sufi/Islam community.

maximillian genossa
03-17-2006, 12:02 PM
If the Shaykh can't fix it, it can't be fixed. he is indeed a powerful and well respected person in the Sufi/Islam community.


You have never dealt with these folks. They torture you, one millisecond at a time.

empathy
03-17-2006, 12:06 PM
I've read about his center in Naples which I believe is where he got involved with the St. Chris folks. I don't think he is aware of the fact that St. Chris was trying to strike out on their own in Luton and presenting themselves as a 'US Run' school and I'm sure he didn't know that the admin were making up credentials. He might be met with some surprises. He is as much a victim in this as the students.


If the Shaykh can't fix it, it can't be fixed. he is indeed a powerful and well respected person in the Sufi/Islam community.

maximillian genossa
03-17-2006, 12:08 PM
"He might be met with some surprises. He is as much a victim in this as the students."




I've read about his center in Naples which I believe is where he got involved with the St. Chris folks. I don't think he is aware of the fact that St. Chris was trying to strike out on their own in Luton and presenting themselves as a 'US Run' school and I'm sure he didn't know that the admin were making up credentials. He might be met with some surprises. He is as much a victim in this as the students.

PathOne
03-17-2006, 12:19 PM
You're correct. Once events are made known to the public all will understand the reason for the delay.

Yet again these ever-so-subtle hints of insider information, while the same poster started this thread with accusations against other posters for their information re. the St. Chris debacle.

I would recommend either sharing what information you claim to posess, or stop making hints if you have no inclination to share the substance of whatever information you may have.

Let's please stay with the facts. The school is suspended by GMC. At no point has the GMC officially indicated that they will provide a "final" verdict or other information than they have already supplied. Obviously, the GMC can change its decision (and do remember that they have in fact already made and published a decision) if their questions are fully answered. But until such answers would come, there's really very little the GMC can and should do. It's not really their job to keep squatter schools in business.

BTW I still find it incredulous that the school has made NO official comment, statement or explanation all this time.

maximillian genossa
03-17-2006, 12:38 PM
I can only imagine that they want to stretch the gum as far as they can before it snaps, reason why they have not made any announcement to their students, which by the way is very unethical on their part.

Oh, I clearly mentioned that my experiences with African nations are based on work I have done in other business ventures for other clients. I never said I had any inside info on this St. Chris miasma.

And I clearly stated that my position concerning "leaks" were my concern about the legitimacy of the "alleged" phone calls made by a multiple account holder who was basically feeding St, Chris with ammunition for their own defense. By the way, that person was banned.

Nothing wrong with that.





Yet again these ever-so-subtle hints of insider information, while the same poster started this thread with accusations against other posters for their information re. the St. Chris debacle.

I would recommend either sharing what information you claim to posess, or stop making hints if you have no inclination to share the substance of whatever information you may have.

Let's please stay with the facts. The school is suspended by GMC. At no point has the GMC officially indicated that they will provide a "final" verdict or other information than they have already supplied. Obviously, the GMC can change its decision (and do remember that they have in fact already made and published a decision) if their questions are fully answered. But until such answers would come, there's really very little the GMC can and should do. It's not really their job to keep squatter schools in business.

BTW I still find it incredulous that the school has made NO official comment, statement or explanation all this time.

jpryor
03-17-2006, 04:20 PM
I would recommend either sharing what information you claim to posess, or stop making hints if you have no inclination to share the substance of whatever information you may have.

At the risk of explaining the obvious, my statement was that once the events were made known to the public, people would understand the delay. It's not my place to divulge any information shared with me in confidence and if my saying that once you heard what was happening you'd understand why it was taking so long disturbs you, there's not much I can do to help you.

jpryor
03-17-2006, 04:22 PM
I can only imagine that they want to stretch the gum as far as they can before it snaps, reason why they have not made any announcement to their students, which by the way is very unethical on their part.

The students at St. Chris know what is going on. They are very active in their discussions. The fact that they don't wish to come here and discuss it reflects poorly on VMD, not them.

teratos
03-17-2006, 04:24 PM
The students at St. Chris know what is going on. They are very active in their discussions. The fact that they don't wish to come here and discuss it reflects poorly on VMD, not them.
They have had a rough time here, no doubt. Some of it legitimate, and some not so much.

JP, do you go to SC? I thought you went someplace else...... G

azskeptic
03-17-2006, 04:24 PM
At the risk of explaining the obvious, my statement was that once the events were made known to the public, people would understand the delay. It's not my place to divulge any information shared with me in confidence and if my saying that once you heard what was happening you'd understand why it was taking so long disturbs you, there's not much I can do to help you. It is widely known what is happening right now in Luton. Obviously when reports are made public all will know. Dean

PathOne
03-17-2006, 07:34 PM
At the risk of explaining the obvious, my statement was that once the events were made known to the public, people would understand the delay. It's not my place to divulge any information shared with me in confidence and if my saying that once you heard what was happening you'd understand why it was taking so long disturbs you, there's not much I can do to help you.

Oh, not to worry. I'm not disturbed at all. Just realize, that while you yourself think the information you have received is valuable, it is utterly worthless for the rest of us, due to the simple fact that you do not share what that information is. Thus, I would personally feel that it is nonsensical to claim that you know something, and then fail to divulge what you know.

Let me just reiterate that ever since the GMC suspension, and the subsequent ECFMG suspension, numerous persons on this board has claimed, that it was a bureaucratic issue which would easily and swiftly be resolved. So far, these persons have been proven wrong, and there is no reliable information in the public domain which lends any credibility to the claim that the GMC and ECFMG suspensions would be lifted anytime soon.

Apart from that, the current huge uncertainty is unfortunately sure to damage not only the reputation of St. Chris immensely, but also the financial position of the school, as prospective students defer enrollment and current students seek to transfer to other fully apporved schools. This will obviously in the long run damage the ability, such as it is, of St. Chris to provide quality training to the students.

smoohead
03-17-2006, 07:36 PM
I actually don't think anyone on here (other than current students) really have a clue... and if you think you do, you definitely don't have the full picture. I say that with no malice... it's just the honest truth :)


It is widely known what is happening right now in Luton. Obviously when reports are made public all will know. Dean

teratos
03-17-2006, 07:38 PM
I have heard things through the grapevine. Possibly from SC students. I really would prefer to wait and see what happens when all is said and done. Why don't we all take a deep breath and sit back. Keep your eyes and ears open and your mouths shut. G

PathOne
03-17-2006, 07:54 PM
I have heard things through the grapevine. Possibly from SC students. I really would prefer to wait and see what happens when all is said and done. Why don't we all take a deep breath and sit back. Keep your eyes and ears open and your mouths shut. G

Sounds like prudent advice.

CorporateRaider
03-17-2006, 09:20 PM
No Az, I don't think it is widely known what is happening in Luton, oh I would say just yesterday.




It is widely known what is happening right now in Luton. Obviously when reports are made public all will know. Dean

jpryor
03-18-2006, 07:39 AM
They have had a rough time here, no doubt. Some of it legitimate, and some not so much.

JP, do you go to SC? I thought you went someplace else...... G

No, I have no affiliation with SC at all. I did go to SJSM until the MedAchiever loan withdrawal.

jpryor
03-18-2006, 07:53 AM
Let me just reiterate that ever since the GMC suspension, and the subsequent ECFMG suspension, numerous persons on this board has claimed, that it was a bureaucratic issue which would easily and swiftly be resolved.

I don't know who has stated that this would be resolved "in a week or two"--and I think I've read every post on this topic. I have seen a speedy resolution alleged by people who are against the school saying that it SHOULD be resolved quickly, but I haven't seen anything by a SC student saying that. I know I sure haven't...to the contrary, I have always agreed that the time factor is an unknown.

As for 'inside information'--I am merely a spectator and for that privilege, I have been asked to remain silent. I haven't been dangling anything in front of anybody to flaunt 'inside information'--all I have said is that once this all became public knowledge people would understand the delays. Big whoop dee doo, huh?

CorporateRaider
03-18-2006, 10:48 AM
While it may not be a "BIG DEAL"under the strict definition of the phrase, I think it's a BIG DEAL to hold some information that is material in understanding what in the hell is going on in Senegal. It stops speculation dead in its tracks.

First and foremost I would like to point out the following:

SENEGAL: To some (few, many) outsiders looking in, the lack of speed @ which Senegal has acted in answering the request for verification , means that Senegal is your typical "3rd World" Country.
Holding the information that some do about what is really going on, helps clear Senegal's good name and intent, which personally makes me very happy because I really get disgusted at the "stereotyping" ; .........Duh, it's a Third World Country (what a crock).

Second: It proves that Senegal is not corrupt as some might have thought. Yes, each man has his price, but it seems that this time around the contractor(s) was not able to meet the price of the fiddler.

Once again this shows the following:

Don't screw the "little guy" along the way, you never know when you might need him again.


Last: I don't feel important because I know something that some of you might not know (yet). Sooner or later those that follow these matter's will know and you can be the judge.

For now I say, "KUDOS TO THE SENEGALESE."

Miklos
03-18-2006, 01:36 PM
Just FYI:

Senegal is ranked 78th in the world, tied with China, Morocco, Sri Lanka and Suriname according to Transparency International's 2005 Corruption Perception Index (http://ww1.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005.sources.en.html).

IMO, not that it matters, but yes, I think that gives one license to call the country "corrupt".

empathy
03-18-2006, 02:30 PM
I think they are working hard to clean up their act. They need aid from the UN and grants from the US. They aren't going to get them if they cont. to be known for diploma mills, etc.

bts4202
03-18-2006, 02:31 PM
Just FYI:

Senegal is ranked 78th in the world, tied with China, Morocco, Sri Lanka and Suriname according to Transparency International's 2005 Corruption Perception Index (http://ww1.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005.sources.en.html).

IMO, not that it matters, but yes, I think that gives one license to call the country "corrupt".


and?... Neither Dominica, grenada, St. Marteen, caymans, nevis, or st. kitts are even listed, so does that give one license to not even consider them a country at all?

(before anyone says that the list is too small, countries like barbados, trinidad, and belize ARE listed)

teratos
03-18-2006, 02:45 PM
Makes little difference, really. G

empathy
03-18-2006, 03:08 PM
The director of the government's department of higher education was asked about St. Chris and said that they awarded accreditation to a college called St. Christopher - Iba Mar Diop medical college which didn't open in Senegal until 2003. He also said that this college may have started its activities before getting their agreement. So we have Senegal's answer. No doubt they supplied documentation to the BBC at the time of their investigation and this was given to the GMC. If Senegal comes back now and tries to rewrite history they'd be in HUGE trouble with the US. Senegal may support St. Chris now but their support can only go back as far as 2003. The St. Chris Admin will have to stand alone and answer questions as to why they were doing business between 1998 and 2003 and under what authority and charter -- and why they presented themselves to potential students as a 'US Run' School.

CorporateRaider
03-18-2006, 03:36 PM
The director of the government's department of higher education was asked about St. Chris and said that they awarded accreditation to a college called St. Christopher - Iba Mar Diop medical college which didn't open in Senegal until 2003. He also said that this college may have started its activities before getting their agreement. So we have Senegal's answer. No doubt they supplied documentation to the BBC at the time of their investigation and this was given to the GMC. If Senegal comes back now and tries to rewrite history they'd be in HUGE trouble with the US. Senegal may support St. Chris now but their support can only go back as far as 2003. The St. Chris Admin will have to stand alone and answer questions as to why they were doing business between 1998 and 2003 and under what authority and charter -- and why they presented themselves to potential students as a 'US Run' School.

Actually I think that jursiprudence allows a country to offer "amnesty" to degree's awarded before your 2003 example (If the country wanted). But the "kicker" is that the ECFMG nor any other Alphabet Soup Organization would allow the "amnesty" degree's to be used for registration, thus for a foreigner (or someone other nationality in general) it would be worthless for purpose of registration/certification.

Presenting oneself as a "U.S. RUN" school, reads to me as "energized marketing tactics". I am sure, I read where [Doctor L] is a U.S. Citizen.........so if he runs the school (you get the picture) and he is Northamerican....... it's a [U.S. RUN SCHOOL].

empathy
03-18-2006, 04:25 PM
they are using the 'piggy back' charter debate. Also the 'US Run' school advertisement they paid for in the Luton paper went a little too far - it gives us perhaps the only published example of what students have been told. The admin rec'd their education from foreign schools and their experience was working for foreign med schools so that's a very poor argument.

futrphysician
03-18-2006, 04:57 PM
The director of the government's department of higher education was asked about St. Chris and said that they awarded accreditation to a college called St. Christopher - Iba Mar Diop medical college which didn't open in Senegal until 2003. He also said that this college may have started its activities before getting their agreement. So we have Senegal's answer. No doubt they supplied documentation to the BBC at the time of their investigation and this was given to the GMC. If Senegal comes back now and tries to rewrite history they'd be in HUGE trouble with the US. Senegal may support St. Chris now but their support can only go back as far as 2003. The St. Chris Admin will have to stand alone and answer questions as to why they were doing business between 1998 and 2003 and under what authority and charter -- and why they presented themselves to potential students as a 'US Run' School.

You wanna provide some documentation here instead of airing speculative opinionated "facts". Copies of contracts, links to documents online, all that would certainly do more to substantiate your claim rather than one who is airing a bit of fantasy and claiming its true.

Just the facts, not your highly undesired opinion. We know what that is. Mr. L and you did not get along. Whatever. Move along.

azskeptic
03-18-2006, 05:00 PM
You wanna provide some documentation here instead of airing speculative opinionated "facts". Copies of contracts, links to documents online, all that would certainly do more to substantiate your claim rather than one who is airing a bit of fantasy and claiming its true.

Just the facts, not your highly undesired opinion. We know what that is. Mr. L and you did not get along. Whatever. Move along. Its all business now. People trying to get in on the gravy train, others trying to save their gravy train, and the students are caught in the middle. I assume you know the reality as well as anyone, futrphysician. Lets hope that some creative stuff happens quickly.

CorporateRaider
03-18-2006, 05:46 PM
Dean,

Don't get a flair up! It appears that St Chris is on its way to Nicaragua.




Its all business now. People trying to get in on the gravy train, others trying to save their gravy train, and the students are caught in the middle. I assume you know the reality as well as anyone, futrphysician. Lets hope that some creative stuff happens quickly.

Tritonesub
03-18-2006, 07:23 PM
Dean,

Don't get a flair up! It appears that St Chris is on its way to Nicaragua.

I wouldnt invest too much in that theory.:bored: Go back to sleep... im sure you;ll have answers to all your questions soon enough.

empathy
03-18-2006, 07:42 PM
Student or Admin?


I wouldnt invest too much in that theory.:bored: Go back to sleep... im sure you;ll have answers to all your questions soon enough.

CorporateRaider
03-18-2006, 09:05 PM
I don't have any questions. It's not a theory, it's a joke towards AZ.




I wouldnt invest too much in that theory.:bored: Go back to sleep... im sure you;ll have answers to all your questions soon enough.

Picard
03-19-2006, 07:46 AM
I know there are quite a bit of recent activities going on with SC/Luton in recent days. I can also understand why SC students have chosen to remain out of public limelight at this time. I also think that there has been enough public information for perspective students to ponder and pause at this time, even without the specific details of what had gone on in Luton over the past few days.

So I say we all take a deep breath, wait and see what happens over the next week or so (this is NOT meant to be a timeline prediction), and allow SC students some room to sort out their internal affairs. After all, it's their arses on the line and they have the most to lose if this goes sideways.

P

bts4202
03-19-2006, 11:42 AM
I know there are quite a bit of recent activities going on with SC/Luton in recent days. I can also understand why SC students have chosen to remain out of public limelight at this time. I also think that there has been enough public information for perspective students to ponder and pause at this time, even without the specific details of what had gone on in Luton over the past few days.

So I say we all take a deep breath, wait and see what happens over the next week or so (this is NOT meant to be a timeline prediction), and allow SC students some room to sort out their internal affairs. After all, it's their arses on the line and they have the most to lose if this goes sideways.

P

thank you, as the smoke clears, we will annouce what has happened...

azskeptic
03-19-2006, 11:54 AM
I know there are quite a bit of recent activities going on with SC/Luton in recent days. I can also understand why SC students have chosen to remain out of public limelight at this time. I also think that there has been enough public information for perspective students to ponder and pause at this time, even without the specific details of what had gone on in Luton over the past few days.

So I say we all take a deep breath, wait and see what happens over the next week or so (this is NOT meant to be a timeline prediction), and allow SC students some room to sort out their internal affairs. After all, it's their arses on the line and they have the most to lose if this goes sideways.

P The students are having to choose if they go with the Senegal proposal, stay with L. or transfer to the various schools that are attempting to recruit the students (good for the Luton economy at the Thistle Hotel)....each decision has a certain risk to it. Good luck.

CorporateRaider
03-19-2006, 02:33 PM
Az,

From what I see there are only two viable options out of the three you have proposed.

1. Go with the "Senegalese" Proposal. Senegal holds all of the power.
Possible Result: VIABLE

2. Stay with "L.". Staying with him......if he holds no valid charter in Luton is not really an option to choose. Pretending that a serious country would charter his Luton campus in a record time, sight un-seen , is simply playing with more fire.
Possible Result: NOT VIABLE

3. Transfer.
Possible Result. VIABLE



The students are having to choose if they go with the Senegal proposal, stay with L. or transfer to the various schools that are attempting to recruit the students (good for the Luton economy at the Thistle Hotel)....each decision has a certain risk to it. Good luck.

empathy
03-19-2006, 04:25 PM
Can a medical college remain open if it doesn't have a charter?

pruritis_ani
03-19-2006, 04:34 PM
I would be a bit concerned about the Senegal solution as well. Clearly the students are being used as pawns by pretty much everyone involved.

Get while the getting is good. What is the saying...fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Hopefully those in the match can get this worked out well. Outside of that group, who really have no choice but to support the Senegal side, I don't see a lot of reason to stick with this school that has already given about 1,000,000 headaches to those involved with it.

empathy
03-19-2006, 04:37 PM
What is the Senegal Solution?

CorporateRaider
03-19-2006, 04:59 PM
A college with no Charter is not a college at all, but rather may be in one of the following catagories:

1. A recently opened college with no charter that is working towards accreditation (usually takes a minimum of 3-5 years).

2. A college that operates under religious exception. (never heard of a medical college in this category, thus, I doubt it would be acceptable).

3. A blatant diploma mill.

Mind you my above examples were not created to fit the mold of a medical college.

When specifically referring to a medical college, THERE IS NO SUCH MODEL AS ONE THAT DOES NOT HOLD A VALID CHARTER.








Can a medical college remain open if it doesn't have a charter?

###
03-19-2006, 05:00 PM
.............

pruritis_ani
03-19-2006, 05:04 PM
I suspect that any "solution" that involves a squatter school in the UK will be fraught with headaches -- no matter who runs it. Thus, best to avoid them and go elsewhere.
Agreed. It seems like the students are being asked to choose between trusting L or a third world country whose govt is not the most stable and where corruption seems to be rampant. The solution sure looks like it has potential to become an even bigger problem...

Go to ANY school that will take you, and go quickly. Preferably, pick one that has been around a while so this sort of thing doesn't happen again. St Chris is becoming a great example of why the old "every school has to start somewhere" argument is plain stupid.

Brings to mind a discussion about this very same administrator in the not too distant past. Something about how the claiming of unverifiable credentials may have been a clue to the ethics this person possesses?? Seems to be ringing true about now, and I bet a lot of people are wishing they never bought what L was selling.

CorporateRaider
03-19-2006, 05:04 PM
I agree that once a school/charter/situation is called into question that holding any level of confidence in it is of high concern.

Be that as it may, it appears that the GMC will allow squatter schools to operate in England (probably due to a loop hole in the law) or at least I have not seen or read anything to do date that would prove otherwise.

If the GMC allows squatter schools in the UK and the Government of Senegal recognizes a new "St. Christopher's College of Medicine" (probably under a new name) then it will be up to one of the many alphabet soup organizations in the U.S.A./CANADA to reject applicants when they apply for professional Licensure.

So you are correct, being concerned about the Senegal solution is justified, but for some there is no other solution because they are already in the "mix" so to speak.



I would be a bit concerned about the Senegal solution as well. Clearly the students are being used as pawns by pretty much everyone involved.

Get while the getting is good. What is the saying...fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Hopefully those in the match can get this worked out well. Outside of that group, who really have no choice but to support the Senegal side, I don't see a lot of reason to stick with this school that has already given about 1,000,000 headaches to those involved with it.

pruritis_ani
03-19-2006, 05:31 PM
I agree that once a school/charter/situation is called into question that holding any level of confidence in it is of high concern.

Be that as it may, it appears that the GMC will allow squatter schools to operate in England (probably due to a loop hole in the law) or at least I have not seen or read anything to do date that would prove otherwise.

If the GMC allows squatter schools in the UK and the Government of Senegal recognizes a new "St. Christopher's College of Medicine" (probably under a new name) then it will be up to one of the many alphabet soup organizations in the U.S.A./CANADA to reject applicants when they apply for professional Licensure.

So you are correct, being concerned about the Senegal solution is justified, but for some there is no other solution because they are already in the "mix" so to speak.
Yeah, I would imagine that the "loophole" is still around. But, really, with the uproar about limited clinical sites in the UK, the obvious concerns the GMC are having with oversight, the fact that the UK is just about the only civilized country that would allow such a relationship and the recent sad history of Kigezi, I would not be surprised to see that loophole snap shut in the not too distant future.

Those that are in the mix, well, they are screwed for now. I would imagine that the 4th years need the Senegalese to step up and save them. The others really have no real need to go down with this ship, as they have plenty of time to get into a new school and go with it. Just get those St Chris credentials in and verified by somebody ASAP, and go through another school for the degree and paperwork. Much less risk there. I wonder if they can sign up for the FCVS without having graduated? Perhaps they can just get copies of transcripts into the new school, and the new school can be the custodian of records.

I am wondering if all those that came on here clamoring about how great the school is, how wonderful the admin is, how there were going to be no problems are feeling now. They helped sucker a bunch of people onto this sinking ship. I feel bad to a point, as they have worked hard. But to go back and read all the claims of future greatness for this school, or academic brilliance, the people that got so upset when anybody stated that there are potential problems for this school. I don't know how they sleep at night.

empathy
03-19-2006, 05:34 PM
So what the St. Chris admin will not be held accountable for the last 7 years that they have been in business? They just get to begin again? Haven't they done that once before?

Can someone get licensed in the states if they attended a college that didn't have a charter or was in the process of getting a charter? What about the students that have already graduated from St. Chris. How will all of this affect them?

Also, I'm sure there are some students who are trapped and can't transfer due to low GPA's. Maybe they should have never been able to get into a medical college to begin with. Will they be able to get a refund?


A college with no Charter is not a college at all, but rather may be in one of the following catagories:

1. A recently opened college with no charter that is working towards accreditation (usually takes a minimum of 3-5 years).

2. A college that operates under religious exception. (never heard of a medical college in this category, thus, I doubt it would be acceptable).

3. A blatant diploma mill.

Mind you my above examples were not created to fit the mold of a medical college.

When specifically referring to a medical college, THERE IS NO SUCH MODEL AS ONE THAT DOES NOT HOLD A VALID CHARTER.

###
03-19-2006, 05:54 PM
......................

azskeptic
03-19-2006, 08:59 PM
PRUNTIS, the way penance works is you do another year of medical school in a place you have ridiculed (carib) and then you spend a lifetime explaining why you have 5 years of medical school I suppose.

it just takes saying you were duped and helped dupe others. We'll see if some of the apologists are big enough people to admit to it or not. Doesn't really matter in the scheme of things. There are bigger problems for their victims to handle anyway than someone else who has duped them. Perhaps attending Cults Anonymous is a good course.

pruritis_ani
03-19-2006, 09:17 PM
PRUNTIS, the way penance works is you do another year of medical school in a place you have ridiculed (carib) and then you spend a lifetime explaining why you have 5 years of medical school I suppose.

it just takes saying you were duped and helped dupe others. We'll see if some of the apologists are big enough people to admit to it or not. Doesn't really matter in the scheme of things. There are bigger problems for their victims to handle anyway than someone else who has duped them. Perhaps attending Cults Anonymous is a good course.

I had some interesting reading earlier, looking at all the posts made by some of these guys. I highly recommend it, for the curious. Click on the screen name of some of the SC folks, click on find all posts, and read away. It is interesting to see what they had to say in defense of the school, and how they attempted to ridicule many people that had what turn out to be very legit concerns. Interesting reading, indeed.

I would hope that they do have the sack to get on here and apologize, but that is not very likely.

OLDPRO
03-19-2006, 09:20 PM
Lets be careful this is getting close to flames here. They are medical students. If this conversation continues I may close this thread it is not productive.

pruritis_ani
03-19-2006, 09:26 PM
Lets be careful this is getting close to flames here. They are medical students. If this conversation continues I may close this thread it is not productive.

What on earth are you talking about? Flames? This is simply bringing up what people have said in the past, and holding them responsible. Is it against TOS to bring up what posters have said in the past? I don't think so.

OLDPRO
03-19-2006, 09:40 PM
What on earth are you talking about? Flames? This is simply bringing up what people have said in the past, and holding them responsible. Is it against TOS to bring up what posters have said in the past? I don't think so. My last word on this, Calling Medical students a "CULT" among other things is offensive to me and I'm sure other Medical students.
Following these comments I do not want to start to see the member names of the past posters on this forum. then As I said I will close this thread to prevent TOS violations. As far as I know they are students like some of you. And they are in a crises now have some EMPATHY for them.

CorporateRaider
03-19-2006, 09:50 PM
Well the word "cult" came from AZ..........isn't there some type of moderator to moderator "zapping" that can be done without ruinning the party for the rest?







My last word on this, Calling Medical students a "CULT" among other things is offensive to me and I'm sure other Medical students.
Following these comments I do not want to start to see the member names of the past posters on this forum. then As I said I will close this thread to prevent TOS violations. As far as I know they are students like some of you. And they are in a crises now have some EMPATHY for them.

###
03-19-2006, 09:57 PM
..............

CorporateRaider
03-19-2006, 09:59 PM
No. The last seven years they have been in business appears to be ok.

I am not sure you understand the meaning of the term "they" ....... if there is a "tug-o-war" going on between a mister "L" and the Senegalese , there is no "they" to it. In this case the Senegalese hold the power (in my view), while the other party seems to hold the money.

I don't see anyone getting a license if they have graduated from a non-chartered school.

Students that have already graduated should not be affected one little bit, St. Chris is listed, so at least gets the grads in the door.

Once, twice, three times a lady (so reads the song).

Refund? Have you read the St. Chris tuition refund policy?




So what the St. Chris admin will not be held accountable for the last 7 years that they have been in business? They just get to begin again? Haven't they done that once before?



Can someone get licensed in the states if they attended a college that didn't have a charter or was in the process of getting a charter? What about the students that have already graduated from St. Chris. How will all of this affect them?

Also, I'm sure there are some students who are trapped and can't transfer due to low GPA's. Maybe they should have never been able to get into a medical college to begin with. Will they be able to get a refund?

pruritis_ani
03-19-2006, 10:02 PM
My last word on this, Calling Medical students a "CULT" among other things is offensive to me and I'm sure other Medical students.
Following these comments I do not want to start to see the member names of the past posters on this forum. then As I said I will close this thread to prevent TOS violations. As far as I know they are students like some of you. And they are in a crises now have some EMPATHY for them.
Lordy, lordy. Overmoderation?

I do have empathy for the students of St Chris, especially those that went there with little insight into the potential problems. They are in a rough position. In fact, even some of those who seem to be part of the problem have my empathy. It would be awful to have worked through school, and to have this to deal with at the very end.

However, I also think that it is appropriate to look at what was said in the past, and by whom. It is pretty clear that all the worries many had are now coming to fruition. These folks are not guilt free. It is poor form to try to sweep it under the table now that what they claimed never could happen is actually happening. I found it very interesting reading, learned a lot about what people will actually say to sell something (or more likely to justify to or convince themselves). If nothing else, those old posts serve as an excellent lesson to newbies on what kind of ** is out there. And, isn't that the point of the board???

Do any of those posters have anything to say? I am sure that you know who you are. In fact, a couple of you have posted on this very thread....

OLDPRO
03-19-2006, 10:17 PM
Lordy, lordy. Overmoderation?

I do have empathy for the students of St Chris, especially those that went there with little insight into the potential problems. They are in a rough position. In fact, even some of those who seem to be part of the problem have my empathy. It would be awful to have worked through school, and to have this to deal with at the very end.

However, I also think that it is appropriate to look at what was said in the past, and by whom. It is pretty clear that all the worries many had are now coming to fruition. These folks are not guilt free. It is poor form to try to sweep it under the table now that what they claimed never could happen is actually happening. I found it very interesting reading, learned a lot about what people will actually say to sell something. If nothing else, those old posts serve as an excellent lesson to newbies on what kind of ** is out there. And, isn't that the point of the board???
No this is not a "free for all" you can't call people out for a brawl on the forum. All I have done is post an opinion of the conversation and you all are so ready to "Brawl" you snap at me. Yes Value MD is moderated. This is not SDN. I do not want a list of the people you expect to "appologise" on this thread or any other, In my opinion that is only to start trouble. Anybody who goes to or went to St. Chris wants people to blame (I'm included) it's themselves and possibly a few others in the Admin.

I did not want to post on the school any more so the above is and will be the last word I have.

I think this explains my posts and fears well now so lets have an end to it I will just be quite on the forum and read as always.

pruritis_ani
03-19-2006, 10:30 PM
No this is not a "free for all" you can't call people out for a brawl on the forum. All I have done is post an opinion of the conversation and you all are so ready to "Brawl" you snap at me. Yes Value MD is moderated. This is not SDN. I do not want a list of the people you expect to "appologise" on this thread or any other, In my opinion that is only to start trouble. Anybody who goes to or went to St. Chris wants people to blame (I'm included) it's themselves and possibly a few others in the Admin.

I did not want to post on the school any more so the above is and will be the last word I have.
Who is calling anyone out for a brawl? And, while I can see that valuemd is moderated, I don't think that as a moderator you are entitled to close/lock a thread because of something "you don't want to see". Nobody wants to brawl, but if your "opinion" is the threat of closing a perfectly civil and helpful thread, then it is pretty clear from the above posts that you don't have the support of the posters. In fact, nobody seems ready to brawl but you! You fly on here, claim you are going to lock the thread, and start insisting that we all feel sorry for some people who don't deserve a lot of sympathy.

There is pretty clearly 1 person to blame, and that is the esteemed leader of St Chris. So, nobody is looking for other students to blame. But, perhaps now would be a good time for some of the more ardent supporters of the St Chris admin to tell us how they feel currently. In fact, it would be a great time to tell others what they may have looked in to more carefully, and/or things to avoid in a med school so others will not face these problems.

My intent is not to whip these people in the town square, but rather have folks look at what was said in the past, and look at the current situation. This would be very, very helpful for many students considering some of the newer offshore schools.

If you don't agree, don't post. Simple enough. I am of the opinion that pretty much nobody will respond to my points, nor will they bother to reply, so this brawl you are expecting is not going to happen. Or, if it does, you won't find me brawling!

###
03-19-2006, 10:43 PM
.............

jpryor
03-20-2006, 06:52 AM
It is obvious that people have conjectured what is happening and have based opinions on scant information. Working yourselves into a frenzy over inaccurate information is hardly a scientific approach to anything.

Wise people might reflect on why there has been misinformation posted on VMD (with resulting banned accounts) and whether the information being fed to certain parties is reliable.

pruritis_ani
03-20-2006, 08:27 AM
It is obvious that people have conjectured what is happening and have based opinions on scant information. Working yourselves into a frenzy over inaccurate information is hardly a scientific approach to anything.

Wise people might reflect on why there has been misinformation posted on VMD (with resulting banned accounts) and whether the information being fed to certain parties is reliable.

True, true, nobody really KNOWS anything. In my opinion, that includes the students and those that have been "let in" to the secret circle.

A wise person would also reflect on the source of the information...anything coming from anybody affiliated with St Chris is certainly suspect. So, we should question the information being fed to members of this forum, or to students and freinds. But, the information out there is pretty limited....

Regardless, the situation currently is crappy for the students and the school. Who knows if, when, or how that will change. There has obviously been some serious issues with the school and the relationship with Senegal. Given that, it is pretty clear that at this point many of the past concerns about this school are currently a reality. That is why I am so curious about the students that in the past were dismissive and outright hostile when the potential of problems with St Chris was even mentioned.

CorporateRaider
03-20-2006, 09:18 AM
Interesting you touch upon the "misinformation" note; and hint towards the realistic possibility that someone (more than one) has/have posted said "misinformation" here.

Potentially a school that has:

1. conflicting charter dates
2. gray area overseas charter permit
3. other questionable issues

and now some "cloak and dagger" ------>

GSG-9/S.A.S/S.E.A.L./DETACHMENT DELTA - DELTA FORCE/SAYERET MATKAL/ tactics to boot ...............

what a list of accolades. :cool:




It is obvious that people have conjectured what is happening and have based opinions on scant information. Working yourselves into a frenzy over inaccurate information is hardly a scientific approach to anything.

Wise people might reflect on why there has been misinformation posted on VMD (with resulting banned accounts) and whether the information being fed to certain parties is reliable.

milos
03-20-2006, 09:34 AM
whuds?


Who is calling anyone out for a brawl? And, while I can see that valuemd is moderated, I don't think that as a moderator you are entitled to close/lock a thread because of something "you don't want to see". Nobody wants to brawl, but if your "opinion" is the threat of closing a perfectly civil and helpful thread, then it is pretty clear from the above posts that you don't have the support of the posters. In fact, nobody seems ready to brawl but you! You fly on here, claim you are going to lock the thread, and start insisting that we all feel sorry for some people who don't deserve a lot of sympathy.

There is pretty clearly 1 person to blame, and that is the esteemed leader of St Chris. So, nobody is looking for other students to blame. But, perhaps now would be a good time for some of the more ardent supporters of the St Chris admin to tell us how they feel currently. In fact, it would be a great time to tell others what they may have looked in to more carefully, and/or things to avoid in a med school so others will not face these problems.

My intent is not to whip these people in the town square, but rather have folks look at what was said in the past, and look at the current situation. This would be very, very helpful for many students considering some of the newer offshore schools.

If you don't agree, don't post. Simple enough. I am of the opinion that pretty much nobody will respond to my points, nor will they bother to reply, so this brawl you are expecting is not going to happen. Or, if it does, you won't find me brawling!
edited for insults/flamming

OLDPRO
03-20-2006, 10:06 AM
If you knew whuds' unfortunate background, you would understand why he "overmoderates." Shall we discuss this, whuds?

While I appologize for any missunderstanding from my posts, my goal is not to misslead or defend this school but to keep the posting civil on this forum, I have stated many times I am an RN and have had a distingused career, I later decided to go to med school, I'm over 40. In fact I have a web site for family and friends. I do not see discussing my past has anything to do with St. Chris. I went there for around a year and caught onto some lies I was told about my situation there and was accepted as a transfer into MD1 at my current school.

There is nothing wrong with being a male nurse for 18 years.

stateofequilibrium
03-20-2006, 10:36 AM
There is nothing wrong with being a male nurse for 18 years.

Unless your first name is Gaylord and your last name is Focker. Then it might be a problem.

However, being somewhat out of the loop of the St. Chris problem, I find the silence bewildering. There are people who claim to be in the "know" and claim that all will be revealed like the second coming and not to worry, and there are those speculating wildly that the UK is planning to search their campus for WMDs.

All I know, is that if I were a prospective student, both parties, the ones in the "know" and the ones not, would scare me SILLY about attending. Silence is just as devastating as overreaction.

milos
03-20-2006, 10:55 AM
While I appologize for any missunderstanding from my posts, my goal is not to misslead or defend this school but to keep the posting civil on this forum, I have stated many times I am an RN and have had a distingused career, I later decided to go to med school, I'm over 40. In fact I have a web site for family and friends. I do not see discussing my past has anything to do with St. Chris. I went there for around a year and caught onto some lies I was told about my situation there and was accepted as a transfer into MD1 at my current school.

There is nothing wrong with being a male nurse for 18 years.



You're flat out saying St. Chris "lied" to you. Isn't that a bit more inflammatory than mentioning "cult" in relation to St. Chris?

If you fail to remove that word from your post, I will lock this thread!

edited for insults

endorphin
03-20-2006, 11:00 AM
All work is honorable, especially caring for the sick.

CorporateRaider
03-20-2006, 12:34 PM
Lashing WHUDS is not a part of the solution.




"Distinguished career" RN, is that an oxymoron?

You're flat out saying St. Chris "lied" to you. Isn't that a bit more inflammatory than mentioning "cult" in relation to St. Chris?

If you fail to remove that word from your post, I will lock this thread!

azskeptic
03-20-2006, 01:54 PM
True, true, nobody really KNOWS anything. In my opinion, that includes the students and those that have been "let in" to the secret circle.

A wise person would also reflect on the source of the information...anything coming from anybody affiliated with St Chris is certainly suspect. So, we should question the information being fed to members of this forum, or to students and freinds. But, the information out there is pretty limited....

Regardless, the situation currently is crappy for the students and the school. Who knows if, when, or how that will change. There has obviously been some serious issues with the school and the relationship with Senegal. Given that, it is pretty clear that at this point many of the past concerns about this school are currently a reality. That is why I am so curious about the students that in the past were dismissive and outright hostile when the potential of problems with St Chris was even mentioned. I stand by my predictions as to what will happen in the UK and believe what is happening is well known to SC students near and far. If you don't know all of this JPryor, then you are the one in the dark.

jpryor
03-20-2006, 02:31 PM
Well, nice try, Az, but I'll not make any comments about what I do or do not know. I agreed not to discuss what has been told to me and I honor my word.

empathy
03-20-2006, 02:37 PM
You defend St. Chris and Xavier. Why? Both schools belong to the same admin and both schools have charter issues.

jpryor
03-20-2006, 02:41 PM
You defend St. Chris and Xavier. Why? Both schools belong to the same admin and both schools have charter issues.

You better check your facts, Empathy.

azskeptic
03-20-2006, 02:46 PM
Well, nice try, Az, but I'll not make any comments about what I do or do not know. I agreed not to discuss what has been told to me and I honor my word. See, there can be honor on this forum. Good. Glad to see it. Dean in London

empathy
03-20-2006, 02:53 PM
got an excellent source. Would you like to see my evidence?


You better check your facts, Empathy.

jpryor
03-20-2006, 02:56 PM
got an excellent source. Would you like to see my evidence?

Sure. Otherwise I might not get any sleep.

empathy
03-20-2006, 03:00 PM
I'm going to let you and BTS embarrass yourselves a while longer. So, what happened at St. James?

jpryor
03-20-2006, 03:02 PM
I'm going to let you and BTS embarrass yourselves a while longer. So, what happened at St. James?

Well, so much for that! St. James...when?

empathy
03-20-2006, 03:08 PM
St. James. Did you graduate?

jpryor
03-20-2006, 03:11 PM
St. James. Did you graduate?

Well, if you're that interested feel free to research my posts. You won't even have to go back a week!

empathy
03-20-2006, 03:14 PM
I do have a job. Just answer silly billy.

jpryor
03-20-2006, 03:17 PM
I do have a job. Just answer silly billy.

Oh, I see. You can sit here writing posts and that won't interfere with your job, huh? Okay...no problem. I left SJSM when they discontinued the MedAchiever loan. Is that a big mystery? I think I've mentioned it a few times on VMD.

marconim
03-20-2006, 03:21 PM
this thread has turned into a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!
what a waste!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jpryor
03-20-2006, 03:26 PM
Hang tight, Marconi...I think Empathy is about to profess her undying love for me.

jpryor
03-20-2006, 03:41 PM
Well, shucks. I thought this was going somewhere. My bad. I gotta run for the evening...y'all have fun.

empathy
03-20-2006, 03:48 PM
You're about as charming as a pit bull.

CorporateRaider
03-20-2006, 09:00 PM
Guys,

Ever hear of PM?


:-smiley7

You're about as charming as a pit bull.

azskeptic
03-20-2006, 09:03 PM
Guys,

Ever hear of PM?


:-smiley7 Never negate romance on the internet, Corporate. Opposites attract. azskeptic in London

empathy
03-21-2006, 05:29 AM
Az lay off the beer!

:beerchug: :beerchug:

sheikh1
03-21-2006, 06:29 AM
I wonder why they say love is in the air, may be internet is best medium!!!

empathy
03-21-2006, 11:54 AM
We started a dating thread in the relaxing lounge. Is it still alive?


I wonder why they say love is in the air, may be internet is best medium!!!







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