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medques
02-28-2006, 07:11 PM
I came to St. Chris because, from another medical schoo, because it was a tri sem program and offered clinical exposure in the United States. I met with Mr……F and…..Dr….L in my home town and they really convinced me about the school. Dr…..L gave a presentation in my home town stating that in 2007 or 2008 they would be fully accredited in the UK and that students would not even have to sit the PLAB????? He also stated that they were in the process of eventually getting approval in Cali, and Tex???????? I don’t know if he was tired from his flight and the only thing his toung could flap out was a bunch of lies, but he sure did do a good job of making a fool of me. I actually even had the opportunity to talk to Dr…L..for along time after his presentation…He told me that the school also had an affiliation with John Hop??????/ So what I would like to ask/state to the St. Chris “allies” is this:
a) Let alone getting fully accredited in the UK, we don’t even have the right to sit the PLAB
b) Cali and Tex?…it would be good if we can just get ECFMG back first
c) John Hop? I don’t even know what to say about that one….you pro “St. Chris” guys tell me

I am not trying to degrade St. Chirs, I was really excited to attend the school and was looking forward to life in England. But I really feel as if I was lied to and cheated, like that is a whole lot of ** to throw out of ones mouth, I think at this point his mouth is so dirty from the lies that, not even extra strength Colgate will clean it.. Dr….L…also walked around to our class rooms, informing students about the school and whatever else, and the question was raised to why we lost the Cleveland Clinic? Dr…L’s response was “it has nothing to do with the GMC”…alright fine…so I called Mr…..F…in new jersey his response was.. “As soon as the GMC issue is resolved, they said we could have the clinic back”…ummm o.k so who Is right? And who is wrong? Way too keep your stories straight guys, good JOB. All I can say is, the teachers at St. Chris are good, most of the faculty is good also. Overall the school WOULD have been good, but if the foundation of the school is built on lies, then the consequence and the events that are occurring speak for themselves. You have to lie a million times to cover up the original lie, so why not just tell the TRUTH. This has been my experience here at “St. LIES school of I wanna just make money so I’ll tell people things to get them to come to the school.” I hope people read this post and make a good decision. The TRUTH is buried underneath a mountain of LIES, so if one can move this mountain please let me know the truth that lies there. As for students looking to come to this school?, I hope your source of info into didn’t come from the Admin like mine did.

P.S. I am new to value MD..so if there is something wrong with this post, let me know, But even if there is something wrong don’t edit it out..unless you want to edit out the truth.

Speedracer
03-01-2006, 08:16 AM
Amen, to your comments, and the TRUTH! It's about time someone spoke up, and presented the REAL TRUTH! I highly commend your bravery.

I bet you won't be getting too much responsese from the "Pro" St. Chris people!

jpryor
03-01-2006, 09:54 AM
P.S. I am new to value MD..so if there is something wrong with this post, let me know, But even if there is something wrong don’t edit it out..unless you want to edit out the truth.

There's nothing wrong with your post, so I doubt any moderator will edit it. Unfortunately, my response will likely be lengthy, but there are some things that need to be said and I'm going to take this opportunity to do so.

Make no mistake, I am critical of St. Christopher's not having all of the proper documentation on hand to validate its charter and all that entails. They were remiss and it is inexcusable. That said, they were and are perfectly legal, as they have stated and as has the government of Senegal. I am willing to bet that this event resulted in every school visiting the issue of their own documentation and making sure their own house was in order.

The remedy is not as expedient as anybody would like. I wouldn't defend this even if I was inclined. To explain it requires speculation, so at best, all I can say is that government bureaucracies usually irritate with the plodding nature of paperwork. Given the gravity of the situation, I would expect a better display of sensitivity to the plight of the students.

Whether you were lied to about California and Texas remains to be seen. I think it is reasonable that this sucker punch levied against the school was unanticipated and has thrown a monkey wrench into the school's timetable. I do not attend the school nor have I been to its campus, so I have no opinion on whether it is a viable candidate for acceptance by either state. But I think it is a reasonable assumption that the school would be posturing itself toward those goals. It may be some creative marketing to state that in 2007 or 2008 that it will obtain those goals, but I'd stop short of saying that they are lies.

Lying and creative marketing seem to go hand in hand with offshore medical schools. I don't know if it speaks to the culture of the people who start these schools, the business model they employ or whatever rationale is used to explain it, but it is pandemic. People can do their own research, as I have, and find that the U.S. has had concerns about offshore schools since day one. The U.S. government has been very active in this arena dating back to the early 1980's. The majority of the Caribbean schools didn't even exist then, so it's fairly obvious that the older, more established schools were the issue then. It's worth noting that the stigma attached to Caribbean students is decades old--again, the result of the older, more established schools. But, in time, these schools have proven worthy and reputable. They weren't when they started and since each new school seems to follow this pattern, it makes me wonder if the lies and unethical practices are a cultural phenomenon or a business practice. The answer really is irrelevant because none of us find it acceptable. But it isn't specific to one school, but a trait found in all of them. Given that you encounter fewer unethical practices and even fewer embellishments at the more established schools, one can speculate that it is a growing process that each school goes through and that once the school is secure, it ceases this behavior. That may be total ** or just wishful thinking.

Much has been said about the character of one of the people you made reference to. Some have focused on his credentials while some have expressed opinions of him on a personal level. I agree with those who have expressed the opinion that this individual does not matter. He sounds like a good salesman--and I have never believed a salesman. That doesn't excuse any lies he may or may not have told, but the rule in life is "Buyer beware". The constant theme on this web site is to visit the school, do your own research, contact your medical board. I've been on this web site for a couple of years and there hasn't been anybody with the credentials to offer any expertise about selecting or assessing a school. As a result, you will get personal opinions, both pro and con. Some of it is good advice, in my opinion--from both those offering pro and con perspectives. Yet, all of it should be considered as unreliable. The biggest shortcoming of ValueMD, in my opinion, is the absence of objective information. I believe it exceeds the grasp of this web site.

To that end, I'll offer a brief defense of myself. There are people who perceive me as being pro XYZ school. Not true. In St. Christopher's case, I have no affiliation with the school and will not be having any. My comments have not been in defense of the school but against the lies and distortions that have been used to denigrate the school. I am on record as saying that I would not go to this school because of the charter issue that arose. But I will reiterate that once this issue is resolved, I think it will be as good as any other offshore school. Perhaps my biggest complaint is that the lies and distortions that are used are harming the legitimate criticisms that are made about each school. It's a sad commentary that health professional plebes cannot rise above the fray. Fortunately, those with an agenda are so transparent that even the most naive of us soon learns to distrust their comments.

In summary, you'll find many sympathetic to your concerns. I'd say I'm sorry that you were lied to, but it's not my place to offer that. As far as the current issues with St. Christopher's...it will be resolved. We've already seen that evidence. It's an emotional roller coaster for those affected and most of us here feel for you. My honest gut feel? Hang in there, as I think you'll be glad you did.

jpryor
03-01-2006, 10:16 AM
Amen, to your comments, and the TRUTH! It's about time someone spoke up, and presented the REAL TRUTH! I highly commend your bravery.

I bet you won't be getting too much responsese from the "Pro" St. Chris people!

The truth, huh? Maybe you'd like his answer to this....


HI i am currently a student at Univ of Debrecen in Hungray. My time here has been amazing and i have learned alot. I was wondering is it better to stay here and finish my degree or transfer to a carib med school where you can do Clinical rotations in the US and everything is in english? Is it really important to do Clinicals in the states if thats where i eventually want to work? or do licencing boards care more about step 1 marks and things like that?

That one's dated 2-14-06. And this one...


Hi i am a University of Debrecen student, I did not have a BSc and i did not sit the examination, just a very easy entrance interview..however i did pay an angent close to 1200 canadian. Some of the Agents there are crooks, but luckly i hooked up with the right one. I think it was the best 1200 dollars i spent. Not only did i get exempt from the entrance exam, he also helped me alot upon my arrival. I also got one months rent free at the dorms, and free taxi rides for a week until i got used to the city, and alot more. so i personally think if you find the right agent its totally worth it.

As for the school, the study is HARD (easy to get in, hard to stay in), but hard work always pays off, overall a very very good school.

Dated 2-27-06

empathy
03-01-2006, 10:47 AM
I've rec'd emails from other students and their stories were very similar to yours. I asked them to come forward and call the GMC, Oregon or the US Dept. of Education for advice. They felt helpless and depressed -- just wanted to wait it out. Only a couple of schools will accept credits they'd paid thousands for so they knew they were facing a total loss. Some couldn't afford to move and begin again so their dream of becoming a doctor was over.



I came to St. Chris because, from another medical schoo, because it was a tri sem program and offered clinical exposure in the United States. I met with Mr……F and…..Dr….L in my home town and they really convinced me about the school. Dr…..L gave a presentation in my home town stating that in 2007 or 2008 they would be fully accredited in the UK and that students would not even have to sit the PLAB????? He also stated that they were in the process of eventually getting approval in Cali, and Tex???????? I don’t know if he was tired from his flight and the only thing his toung could flap out was a bunch of lies, but he sure did do a good job of making a fool of me. I actually even had the opportunity to talk to Dr…L..for along time after his presentation…He told me that the school also had an affiliation with John Hop??????/ So what I would like to ask/state to the St. Chris “allies” is this:
a) Let alone getting fully accredited in the UK, we don’t even have the right to sit the PLAB
b) Cali and Tex?…it would be good if we can just get ECFMG back first
c) John Hop? I don’t even know what to say about that one….you pro “St. Chris” guys tell me

I am not trying to degrade St. Chirs, I was really excited to attend the school and was looking forward to life in England. But I really feel as if I was lied to and cheated, like that is a whole lot of ** to throw out of ones mouth, I think at this point his mouth is so dirty from the lies that, not even extra strength Colgate will clean it.. Dr….L…also walked around to our class rooms, informing students about the school and whatever else, and the question was raised to why we lost the Cleveland Clinic? Dr…L’s response was “it has nothing to do with the GMC”…alright fine…so I called Mr…..F…in new jersey his response was.. “As soon as the GMC issue is resolved, they said we could have the clinic back”…ummm o.k so who Is right? And who is wrong? Way too keep your stories straight guys, good JOB. All I can say is, the teachers at St. Chris are good, most of the faculty is good also. Overall the school WOULD have been good, but if the foundation of the school is built on lies, then the consequence and the events that are occurring speak for themselves. You have to lie a million times to cover up the original lie, so why not just tell the TRUTH. This has been my experience here at “St. LIES school of I wanna just make money so I’ll tell people things to get them to come to the school.” I hope people read this post and make a good decision. The TRUTH is buried underneath a mountain of LIES, so if one can move this mountain please let me know the truth that lies there. As for students looking to come to this school?, I hope your source of info into didn’t come from the Admin like mine did.

P.S. I am new to value MD..so if there is something wrong with this post, let me know, But even if there is something wrong don’t edit it out..unless you want to edit out the truth.

stephew
03-01-2006, 10:48 AM
i can assure you there is no relationship with johns hopkins.

medques
03-01-2006, 02:39 PM
Well to let you know I am currently a St. Chris student, and many of my friends from Debrecen and I use this same log in name…we don’t sit on Value Md 24 hours a day..we have better things to do like study..I never even knew what this was until last year.. so I am sure if you use your digging skills you could find some more posts under this log in name to prove me wrong, why don’t you use you digging skills and find the TRUTH about the school, put it to good use instead of trying to prove me wrong. Well this characters “Honest gut feel is to hang in there, and us St. Chris students will be glad” Let my give you another analogy I think you cant process stuff very well. As you stated , “ I do not attend the school nor have I been to its campus”, so then you do not know how the 800 students of St. Chris feel. Imagine someone is holding a gun to your head….how would you feel??… you have no where to go, no where to turn, and no idea what to do and your scared…you would be stuck and forced to wait until the gunman decided to let you go or shoot you…THAT’S how St. Chris students feel…the Admin has this gun to our head s (the issues affecting st. chirs)….we don’t know where to go, or what to do…were forced to Wait until they make a decision…. IF we go based on these “Gut” feelings of yours and other St. Chris supporters including the admin that’s like saying…….ohh that’s o.k… if someone is holding a gun to our head, maybe he’ll decide to put the gun down, then everything will be o.k…and we’ll become best friends one day… get real, obviously people are in a panic, and scared...and there gona look for a way out of this, instead of waiting and hoping the Admin will come up with something (which they haven’t). Instead whats gona happen is the Admin is gona shoot the future of current students down the drain..… I am telling you first hand, my experience… If you think logically for a second dose it makes sense to gamble with ones future and WAIT until its resolved….you might as well get shot in the head then…the FACTS are right in front of you…. Again I say the foundation of this school is based on LIES, and people that lie and play with the densities of these many people cant be good people, and they cant be running a legit business, and cant be trusted not now, not in the future.

Were basically putting our lives in the hands of the Admin and many other people when choosing to come here, so all we can hope for is that these people are honest and trustworthy. Your saying that every school goes through this, yes o.k but why now?, why not in 1998 or 1999 OR was it 2000 when we supposedly had a proper charter and a proper affiliation to the school in Senegal. Many Caribbean schools have gone through this, but in the early years of there existence, I believe… so why are we going through this now, I don’t get it??… I don know why you cannot admit what’s in front of you. Your logic and perspective seem legit.. yes the school would want to achieve goals such as Cali approval, I think even you know how hard that is?,..So when Dr….L.. told me this he used it as a selling feature…, he might as well have told me that they were getting approval to practise on the moon….is that a realistic goal to strive for…. Its IMPOSSIBLE for St. Chris at this point…unrealistic and I only realized that when I came here. You have to have proper labs at the institution, a huge faculty, research coming from the institution to get Cali approval, so I think St. Chris is a couple of light years away from that still…not only am i saying this…I had a meeting with the dean....those were infact his words…”Light years away” from anything like that, so why say that??? Just to get students to come to the school.

What happens to “new criminals” that enter jails??….they get………….up the………..by the senior criminals, so this leads me to think maybe the St. Chris supporters are like the new criminals in the St. Chris jail…and I don’t know now if the Senior criminals such as DR…..L….are doing the same thing to you guys as would be done in a jail, and that’s the reason for all your support of the school, even when the facts are written in front of you??…maybe that is what’s going on, I don’t know…if it is…you sure must like the feeling…your just as much of Liars and Criminals as they are….don’t try and twist around or justify someones LIES…I know I got lied to….so did many other students who are going threw this pain and suffering…all we can do is hope for the best…my only advice is get OUT before that bullet goes off…

jpryor
03-01-2006, 04:01 PM
The panic in your post is quite evident, so I'll try not to trip any buttons to aggravate it. I think you'll agree that multiple users of the same account from different schools can confuse people. So, let's assume you are a St. Chris student and go from there.

I can research and find the few posts I've made stating that if the suspicions of the GMC were proved accurate that the administrators of St. Chris should be held accountable. I'm not glossing over anything on their behalf. But I'm not on a vendetta against the school, either. We all waited to see which way the wind was going to blow when this thing erupted. The majority of us were holding our breaths that no harm would befall the students. Unfortunately, you and your classmates are sitting on the front lines of this battle and some of us do sympathize with you. But allow me to offer some insight that may help you to see the reality of things.

You say that there are 800 students at St. Chris right now. That represents a fairly healthy chunk of money in tuition for the owner(s). Given the amount of money invested and the amount of money that can be made from this venture, it is reasonable that everybody connect to the operation of the school is doing everything possible to expedite a resolution. That's pretty much common sense. People like to complain that these schools are only interested in money, so it works in your favor if that is true.

There is clear and objective evidence that the charter issue has been resolved. This doesn't come from anybody here on ValueMD, from the school or any party that can be considered biased. IMED has updated its web site that confirms there was a valid charter from 2000, that the Luton campus is the chartered school and that this entire issue was baseless. The government of Senegal did not provide the explicit documentation that the ECFMG wants, so the ECFMG has pended approval of any new applicants until it recieves the requested documentation. But even in doing so, the ECFMG acknowledged Senegal's recognition of the school--again, an objective party that isn't going to be swayed by any school or government representative. In its subsequent e-mail exchanges from people, like me, who made inquiries, the ECFMG reiterated its position...it needs it explicitly stated that the Luton campus is the chartered school. Senegal made an effort to do that, but just not to the satisfaction of the ECFMG.

If you see doom and gloom in this, I don't think I'd be critical of you. I knjow it has to be hard sitting there going through this without getting information you can trust. I'm not a cheerleader for the school nor do I have an axe to grind with anybody involved in it. I wouldn't lie to help the school and I certainly wouldn't lie to harm it. I've watched this unfold and I see the evidence emerging. I don't have to have confidence in this working out because it has already been shown that it will.

But, if you want to pull the trigger...

Tritonesub
03-01-2006, 06:32 PM
If you feel like you've been cheated, why not leave? You transferred before (the reason for that left to speculation). There are many that are quite happy where they are and dont feel 'lied to'. I understand that from your history that you have some problem succeeding at medical school and this ECFMG publicity may be your chance to 'get rich quick' for your 'pain and suffering', but if its this type of compensation you're after perhaps your on the wrong side of the medical industry. There was never any claim that St. Chris had approval in cali and texas, only that we were in the process of building the school up to get approval in those states. What was always said was by the time you actually get to the point of applying for license (depending on your level.. around 10years) in those state we would probably have them.

Medicine is a commitment (something that a divorce expert wouldnt understand) you put your head down, ignore all the rumors and pursue your goals inspite of the road blocks. You deal with issues when you get there and you will be able to overcome them. How can you even talk about a license when you have not passed a single licensing exam or know if you'll pass any of them?

medques
03-01-2006, 06:37 PM
Sorry if multiple users of my account confuses people, I don’t use this web site much, and i am just here to get some quick answers. It seems to me as you were trying to show people that I was lying and my story was **, I am sorry I don’t LOVE the politics on this web site as much as you do, but I want to get some answers myself and keep other students informed as I feel that is the right thing to do? Do you not agree?


I am wondering if your not a St. Chirs student? And you Have never been to the Campus? Then why do you have so much interest in the drama going on here? I mean you e mail the GMC and ECFMG and do all these other thing, WHY?? isn’t DAYS of our LIVES more interesting then St. Chirs???..I am sure it is. Your on the outside looking in, it easy for you to judge the outcome of this drama cause your just watching it.. your not actually in the fire. SO of course I am PANICED why wouldn’t I be its common sense for a student in my situation to be.. I’ve invested my money and more so my time and effort here which is priceless.

I am not just coming here to degrade the college, I am here to tell my side of things. I used to tell everyone to come to this college I even told people that if all goes well in 5 or 6 years time and maybe just maybe it would bypass the big 4 Caribbean schools. But I am here now in the mix of things? And I am seeing everything first hand, I walk threw the halls of St.Chirs I talk with the GMC and faculty and that is how I came to these conclusions., and I take that statement back in a heart beat. I think you would agree that the reputation of a school is very important?? and based on the reputation and history of events that occur in a institution, that is something State licensing boards will look at right?? I was told that when your applying for a licence the state boards don’t look at the “good stuff” in your application they look at the "bad stuff" in your application, so they can throw it out and move onto the next candidate, who has nothing wrong with his application and he/she is given the licence. I don’t know but something like the events that are occurring at St.chirs could potentially give them a reason to throw you application in the garbage ??…WHY would anyone risk that?…you should phone a licensing board and ask them if the school you attend is important? See if they tell you the same thing? its not "Wishful" thinking on my part, its the only logical train of thought that makes sence.

What evidence is there that the charter issue is resolved?? I was told from a student that received an mail from the GMC that there investigating a fraud with the charter…yes there maybe an affiliation now and a charter now, but what about 1998 when the school opened.??. and the graduates of the school before that time? Was there a charter then??…if you say it doesn’t matter then your wrong??…I asked a associate director of a NHS hospital in Leeds who had offshore medical students practising at his clinic and YES they do care, about the establishment and charter issues of offshore medical schools that send there students to NHS hospitals. They want proper documentation of the schools Charter, affiliations, ect..ect.. .So I don’t know maybe I am to worried and tripping out…maybe you know something more about this then I do? I don’t

medques
03-01-2006, 07:06 PM
I think the "Jail" comparison made in the eariler posts applies to you Triton, do you not know how to put together words, i mean you are in med school ..its something that should come hand in hand..Right?? or should i understand from your history that you have some interpretation problems?? How do you know there wasnt a claim about eventaully getting Cali and Tex??..were you there??? you dont know what they said to me... Exactly so what your saying makes no sence..which leads me to wonder how you ever got into medical school

Think about this...if you can see a road block a mile away and you know your heading straight for it...wouldnt you plan in advance???...wouldnt you find away around it..so when you got there you would know how to deal with it??? and cross the road block easily, instead of dealing with the issue when you got there?...think about that one..what makes more sence???

I mean you should know your a med student right?? you should be able to think outside the box..well a little i hope.

Tritonesub
03-01-2006, 07:18 PM
Kid, I'm a physician, you're the med student. Perhaps you misread my earlier post, I did state that the admin were quite open about their pursuit of eventual California and Texas Licensure. While I dont know what was said to you exactly, I can assure you that no 'special' orientation was custom taylored just for you. It is the same 'plans for school expansion' speech that was given to countless others on numerous occasions. My point is, how can you say anyone promised you any type of license in any state if you havent graduated or passed a licensing exam?? Besides, I would worry more about your transfer history affecting your license application than rumors about the school.

medques
03-01-2006, 07:43 PM
well if your a physician you should really be able to think outside the box? think about this....what dose Eventually mean to you?? Eventually we'll reach Mars one day..i wasnt told eventually i was told in a few years..but i dont see progress towards that....even if i have not finished basic science whats wrong with for seeing the future..?.anyways..your done school? your working as a physician your not in the heat of what were going through right now....so you dont know how it feels..so your comments are useless....and if your a physician shouldn't you be more worried about other things????? or do you really like the drama thats going on here THAT much??..or is your TV broken?? i am sure your life must be more exciting then surffing these forms??..is it not...

you have accomplished your goal..we "med students" are trying to do the same thing and finish "basic science" but with i am sure you never had these issues like this threw your school years??

Scott1981
03-01-2006, 07:59 PM
how hard is it to open a vmd account? :roll:

Tritonesub
03-01-2006, 08:15 PM
No, I never had to deal with anything like this. But you are saying that you were 'lied to' about things like the ECFMG, when you dont even know what the outcome is. Its only been 2 weeks since the ECFMG has requested documents and already you are saying you were 'lied to' about ECFMG approval. If you are aversed to road blocks and prefer avoiding them rather than to deal with them, maybe you're in the wrong profession.
As for posting on forum, it is my way of getting information on what is going on as it does still affect me. I just dont like histrionic postings based on speculation about the ECFMG issue where everything that the admin says is somehow twisted into a lie. I mean where was your 'lies' post 2 months ago? Or were you not already drafting the plans to your clinic in california at that point.

anubis
03-01-2006, 08:20 PM
Panic doesn't help, it only creates more panic. Do something or get off the pot.

bts4202
03-01-2006, 08:30 PM
Please, there is no one on earth who would believe that you share an account with people in hungary yet are as completely clueless as to how to use valuemd as you claim. Multiple accounts is a violation of TOS, certain parts of your original post are identical to statements you have made in the past with other usernames. Your "slip is showing".

medques
03-01-2006, 08:38 PM
what parts of my post?? what other usernames??..why dont you explain...not everyone lives on here as you may do...your probably also involved with the whole jail comparison i made eariler about ST. Chris supporters..so that means the only "slip" that is occuring must be your...P****

bts4202
03-01-2006, 08:48 PM
what parts of my post?? what other usernames??..why dont you explain...not everyone lives on here as you may do...your probably also involved with the whole jail comparison i made eariler about ST. Chris supporters..so that means the only "slip" that is occuring must be your pants??

i will ask Doc to review your accounts.

medques
03-01-2006, 08:48 PM
No, I never had to deal with anything like this. But you are saying that you were 'lied to' about things like the ECFMG, when you dont even know what the outcome is. Its only been 2 weeks since the ECFMG has requested documents and already you are saying you were 'lied to' about ECFMG approval. If you are aversed to road blocks and prefer avoiding them rather than to deal with them, maybe you're in the wrong profession.
As for posting on forum, it is my way of getting information on what is going on as it does still affect me. I just dont like histrionic postings based on speculation about the ECFMG issue where everything that the admin says is somehow twisted into a lie. I mean where was your 'lies' post 2 months ago? Or were you not already drafting the plans to your clinic in california at that point.

O.k maybe you need some eye drops.... read all of my posts..where did i say i was "lied" to about the ECFMG??..please tell me? and if your a Doctor i am very SURE you must have a better source of info about the ECFMG then whats posted on this site?? so why do you come here for updates??...cant you get some inside info from them??..you are a doctor and should be able to

medques
03-01-2006, 08:56 PM
i will ask Doc to review your accounts.

Be my guest, you should have done that before you made that comment which you could not cearly back up..dosen't that make you look :confused: ...

medques
03-01-2006, 09:00 PM
Multiple accounts is a violation of TOS, certain parts of your original post are identical to statements you have made in the past with other usernames. Your "slip is showing".

You should take the TOS violation paper where it states all these rules...turn it side ways and put it somewhere..EDITED

DocRon
03-01-2006, 09:24 PM
You should take the TOS violation paper where it states all these rules...turn it side ways and put it somewhere..EDITED

That is just wrong!!! HILARIOUS, but wrong...

Oh my goodness, too funny...

studentMD
03-01-2006, 09:32 PM
Reminder, insults/flames are not permitted here, any further insults on this thread will result in warnings. If this thread is to remain open, play nice. If its too difficult to carry on a civil discussion in public then take it to PM.

Tritonesub
03-01-2006, 09:49 PM
Unfortunately, its people like this that post here and are percieved to represent the school. With that level of maturity, sadly enough, I would not endorse this individual to interact with patients even though he is from my school. Medicine is a lifestyle, not a job. Aim to achieve the maturity, charatcer and ethics... then worry about the license.

medques
03-01-2006, 10:05 PM
Why dont you tell the TRUTH about the school...shows some character, some ethics some maturity you have...and COME clean about the real issues at hand here?? sadly enough, I would not endorse this individual to interact with even monkies let alone patients... even though he is from my school...as you say your a doctor now and nothing can be done about whatever you interact with??..whatever YOU dont go here no more..so why do you keep saying stuff?? your not in the heat

Scott1981
03-02-2006, 06:18 AM
You should take the TOS violation paper where it states all these rules...turn it side ways and put it somewhere.. EDITED

i think johnny knoxville did that before :lol:

MDXRS22
03-02-2006, 06:43 AM
LOL:)
This should be left to Tom Green to handle alone:):):)

jpryor
03-02-2006, 08:18 AM
Whether this individual is a student or not isn't really relevant. The concern reflected in the post is most assuredly indicative of the legitimate concern of St. Chris students. Just before signing off last night there were 5 members and 179 guests reviewing this thread...the most I've ever seen. We know that St. Chris students don't like to post here, so I keep in mind those nameless students.

If you are currently attending or did attend an offshore medical school, those who are or were around you are no different that the students at St. Chris. Neither the GMC, IMED, USMLE, PLAB, Senegal or St. Chris administrators need our support--but those students do. I'm sure there are many St. Chris students who are feeling increased anxiety and questioning every aspect of their life right now. That stress contributes to irrational thinking--as evidenced in the OP's initial posts.

To the St. Chris students:

Nobody on ValueMD can affect the reality of what is happening and that reality is reflected on IMED. Only a government can provide information to IMED and Senegal did that. The update includes the New Jersey address for St. Chris which would not be included if the Luton campus wasn't recognized by Senegal. The ECFMG's actions were almost predictable when you think about it. As you'll learn down the road, the paperwork involved in your education and licensure has to be exact--nothing ambiguous, no missing information, no blanks. The ECFMG doesn't play around--it tells you right on its web page that it wants the t's crossed and the i's dotted. Don't read more into the ECFMG's actions than it is. This isn't going to reflect poorly on you or the school down the road. Quite the opposite--you guys are going to be graduating from one of the more scrutinized schools and its validation is going to be beyond reproach. Once you realize that, you'll begin to appreciate that the irony of this is your good fortune.

The issue of the school obtaining California or Texas approval is not relevant to any student attending St. Chris right now or the near future. Presumably, none of you attended St. Chris with the intention of working in either of those states--if you did, I'm sorry-you made a big mistake. It is unlikely that either state will make their approval retroactive. Especially California--it's pretty clear that it's normal approval process is from the date of approval forward. At this time, the only thing related to that approval process that pertains to current students is the administration's continued effort to improve the school toward that end. With each step the administration takes toward that goal, your life at the school improves.

Yes, the NHS Fraud Unit became involved in the investigation of St. Chris. Does that mean there was fraud? No. It means that trained investigators were asked to assist the GMC (by prior arrangement) in its inquiries. Had anything illegal been determined, the government needed experts who knew how and where to look, so the GMC did the right thing. Has any fraud been uncovered? It doesn't appear so. Where is the evidence of that? A couple of us have posted e-mail responses from the GMC that indicated the same issue as reflected by the ECFMG--everybody is waiting for Senegal to cross some t's and dot some i's. When the documentation is received (and hopefully Senegal will be thorough this time) the issues with the GMC and the ECFMG will proably go away within a day or two of each other (depending on the speed of response in each bureaucracy).

The original poster raised some concern about dates and the admission of students. If you research the history of most of these schools you'll see that the school was started and that it took roughly a year or two to get things organized and develop enough to obtain a charter. In St. Christopher's case, it took about two years. There weren't any students attending the school during that time--heck, the teaching staff were initially committed on paper only. The instructors most likely preceded the first students by a couple of weeks or less. It's the same at every new school. Nothing fraudulent about that.

When I began my medical training I was offered this bit of advice: Don't look for elephants in trees. It means that the obscure theories usually aren't the facts and that you should proceed with the obvious. It pertains to St. Chris in this manner: there was a question about the legality of St. Chris's charter and the evidence available to us today demonstrates that the charter was in place and legal as the school and the government intended.

I said it before, but it's worth repeating. The irony of this debacle is that St. Chris is likely going to become one of the preferred schools because of this event.

azskeptic
03-02-2006, 08:41 AM
It is a stretch to know ANYTHING about what is really happening right now with the ECFMG or GMC. While the students wait for the 3 wise men in robes to magically transport the paperwork to Philadelphia, it is going to be 4 months tomorrow that the GMC suspended taking SC credentials and despite constant promises from administration and apologists nothing appears to be 'done' in any shape or form of the word.

jpryor
03-02-2006, 08:45 AM
It is a stretch to know ANYTHING about what is really happening right now with the ECFMG or GMC. While the students wait for the 3 wise men in robes to magically transport the paperwork to Philadelphia, it is going to be 4 months tomorrow that the GMC suspended taking SC credentials and despite constant promises from administration and apologists nothing appears to be 'done' in any shape or form of the word.

I know the IMED update must stick in your craw, Az. But you can't change that. Wallow in it.

azskeptic
03-02-2006, 08:49 AM
I know the IMED update must stick in your craw, Az. But you can't change that. Wallow in it. Nothing to change. THe goal is for the students to know what their reality is. IMED still leaves lots of questions for those who began school before 2003 or got a degree from St. Chris but not the University itself.

jpryor
03-02-2006, 08:55 AM
Nice try, but factually wrong. IMED clearly indicates SC was chartered in 2000, meaning it had degree granting authority. It's affiliation with the University is irrelevant to that...as clearly indicated in IMED since it reiterates that SC grants the degrees.

CrankyFranky
03-02-2006, 09:30 AM
Hey Medques:

'have recently started my search of European schools to attend - realize you're hurtin, man, I would be too. Know several of the larger medical schools in Poland are taking in transfers from St. Chris - with full credit. Maybe you should check 'em out. Only know one fella from St. Chris - told me he was offered a spot at Gdansk- Lodz-Warsar. think these schools also have Stafford Loans. Good Luck & good hunting-

The Crankmeister

Smythe
03-02-2006, 09:45 AM
You should take the TOS violation paper where it states all these rules...turn it side ways and put it somewhere..EDITED

well given the position (http://www.ibi-online.org/images/5-headup%5b1%5d.jpg) of the SC cheerleaders, at least they'd be able to read it

medques
03-02-2006, 11:20 AM
Hey Medques:

'have recently started my search of European schools to attend - realize you're hurtin, man, I would be too. Know several of the larger medical schools in Poland are taking in transfers from St. Chris - with full credit. Maybe you should check 'em out. Only know one fella from St. Chris - told me he was offered a spot at Gdansk- Lodz-Warsar. think these schools also have Stafford Loans. Good Luck & good hunting-

The Crankmeister

Heres some other schools to check out in europe. i talked with hungary today, they said they would accept all the basic science credits from St. Chris, they also said if any St. Chirs students wanted to start ASAP that is an option...as there school only started 2 weeks ago, maybe you should look into this option as well.

Advantages
CAI approved, NY approved (Wycoff hospital to be exact), 6th year is done in NY, 5th year can also be done in the states threw the 5th pathway program, if one want to.
tution is 8000 for the year (Cheap!)
Living costs no more than 275 american per month
School has been around for over 70 years
Lots of graduates practising in the States (can easily be found)
Very well recognized in research, can also get MD/Phd program
100% USMLE pass rate, most studets get in the 85-95 precentil range.
If you are a EU citizen and grad from here, you dont have to sit the PLAB as Hungary is apart of the EU now.
Approved for ALL loans, Stafford ect. US, Canadain, UK governments will aslo lend money to come to this school. As well as local banks in the US and Canada. so money is NOT a problem

Disadvantages
Bascaiily a 3rd world country still, as almost none of the locals can speak english
Have to learn the Hungarian language to deal with patients
Study very hard no 19 point curve or anything like that, most classes require 65 percent to pass (60 percent fail rate after second year, so that speaks for itself, ORAL exams can be difficult
The school will not set up clinical roations for you, this must be done yourself by contacting hospitals and appying, no guaranteed if you will get clinicals in the USA.
Will take LONGER, school is only bisem, and can only take transfers as high as 3rd year

This is how it lays out, both the adv/dis are almost equal.. i transfered to St.Chris cause i heard rotations were a HUGE deal, no language problems, and alot of my family is here. If anyone else wants more info PM me..

azskeptic
03-02-2006, 11:42 AM
Students have told me that they have heard AUA, St. Matts, Mua-Belize,St. Martinus, St. James are taking transfers. Any others?

medques
03-02-2006, 11:54 AM
There are other Schools willing to accept St. Chris credits also

Hungary

University of Pécs (http://www.pote.hu/index_en.htm)
Albert Szent-Gyërgyi Medical University Szeged (http://www.szote.u-szeged.hu/)
University of Debrecen (http://www.dote.hu/)

Poland

Pozan University of Medical Studies
The Medical University of Lublin,
Lublin

The Medical University of Silesia,
Katowice

Croatia
Medical School of the University of Zagreb (http://www.gradschools.com/bounce/mefmse.bounce?http://www.mef.hr)

Romania
Oradea university English faculty medicine.

I have been told by these schools, that they will consider St. Chris credits if proper transcripts, Documentation, and other papers are presented...did not go into specifics with any school..just trying to find as many that will accept the credit

AUCMD2006
03-02-2006, 01:16 PM
[quote=jpryor]administrators need our support--but those students do. I'm sure there are many St. Chris students who are feeling increased anxiety and questioning every aspect of their life right now. That stress contributes to irrational thinking--as evidenced in the OP's initial posts. /quote]

they don't need our 'support' they need our empathy, giving support legitimizes the last 5 years of misleading or incomplete information getting students to attend the school without disclosing the possible side effects. so while the profs were good, the education probably more than adequate, facilities up to individual interpretation, they should have shown support for fellow students by mentionaing that ther charter was elsewere, the aggressive marketing by king pin was either overly optimistc in timeline or not applicable to their attendance timeframe, and so on. instead they were good to go in 48 states, nj in the bag, ny and cali, etc....

some say, students should check up on their own, but in reality you are happy just to get into a med school so you either just block out any sense or just have no common sense to begin with...besides fellow students are saying its all good and its located in england for God sakes, they gotta have laws and regulations that those third world jungles don't right?

best of luck to you all, it seems like the paperwork was ok from 200 or 2003 so it is probably just a snag for you guys after 2003 unfortunately it doesn't help making the match now, being pulled, or being in limbo to take your exams....

*support vs empathy is not a big deal, i just bring it up b/c AZ and JP have made their VMD carrers on jumping and maginfying seemingly meanigless distictions so i thought i'd fill in for them on this one

maximillian genossa
03-02-2006, 02:18 PM
"they should have shown support for fellow students by mentionaing that ther charter was elsewere, the aggressive marketing by king pin was either overly optimistc in timeline or not applicable to their attendance timeframe, and so on. instead they were good to go in 48 states, nj in the bag, ny and cali, etc...."

Amen to that. Wake up and smell the coffee folks, ANY responsible administration would have done that.

Am I saying SC administration is irresponsible? Ah, let me see, hmmm, YES!






[quote=jpryor]administrators need our support--but those students do. I'm sure there are many St. Chris students who are feeling increased anxiety and questioning every aspect of their life right now. That stress contributes to irrational thinking--as evidenced in the OP's initial posts. /quote]

they don't need our 'support' they need our empathy, giving support legitimizes the last 5 years of misleading or incomplete information getting students to attend the school without disclosing the possible side effects. so while the profs were good, the education probably more than adequate, facilities up to individual interpretation, they should have shown support for fellow students by mentionaing that ther charter was elsewere, the aggressive marketing by king pin was either overly optimistc in timeline or not applicable to their attendance timeframe, and so on. instead they were good to go in 48 states, nj in the bag, ny and cali, etc....

some say, students should check up on their own, but in reality you are happy just to get into a med school so you either just block out any sense or just have no common sense to begin with...besides fellow students are saying its all good and its located in england for God sakes, they gotta have laws and regulations that those third world jungles don't right?

best of luck to you all, it seems like the paperwork was ok from 200 or 2003 so it is probably just a snag for you guys after 2003 unfortunately it doesn't help making the match now, being pulled, or being in limbo to take your exams....

*support vs empathy is not a big deal, i just bring it up b/c AZ and JP have made their VMD carrers on jumping and maginfying seemingly meanigless distictions so i thought i'd fill in for them on this one

Tritonesub
03-02-2006, 02:30 PM
Anyone who claims that they were not told of the charter in Senegal wasnt listening or selectively chose to ignore this aspect. I mean it is one of the FAQs asked most by students and is usually the first; if they are required to go to senegal at some point in their training.

pruritis_ani
03-02-2006, 02:37 PM
Well, jpryor, I think you are streching it a bit....as of now, I am pretty unaware of any indications either way. You seem to be assuming that ECFMG and GMC are "crossing the t's and dotting the i's", but I don't know where you are getting that. It seems that these events can be interpreted optimistically or pessimistically, but both are merely guesses.

At this point, the school is a in a tight spot. Nobody knows what will happen. To somehow project that this school is going to be one of the better offshore schools "due to this increased scrutiny" seems pretty irresponsible to me.

As of yet, this school has not passed a single one of the scrutiny processes. You can go back more than 2 years for the state of NY visit, to the more recent ECFMG visit. None are resolved. Therefore, it would seem very prudent to assume that there is more to it than dotting the i's, IMHO.

In choosing or evaluating offshore schools, it would seem prudent to err on the side of pessimism, versus being hopeful and generous in our interpretations of events that we really have zero knowledge of.

jpryor
03-02-2006, 02:44 PM
Fair criticism is fair. You haven't ever heard me defending outlandish claims made by any school.

I suppose it's a good thing VMD wasn't around back in the early 80's when the US government was making a concerted effort to ban offshore students from obtaining US licensure. I guess it would seem unfair to mention that the likes of SGU, Ross and AUC were the reasons that there remains a stigma about Caribbean schools and Caribbean students. I guess it might be fair to question why it took so many years for any of these schools to obtain any sort of approval.

to put it in some perspective, saba had been open sine 1989 and only applied to cali last year....smu had said it was in process since 1998, had to move campus and was denied last year. this doesn't mean the schools are bad....just gives you perspective on the lenght of time it takes to get it done.

Of course, these schools were started by people who would never embellish or lie to students, would they?

If you're going to be sanctimonious, don't live in a glass house.

AUCMD2006
03-02-2006, 03:21 PM
Fair criticism is fair. You haven't ever heard me defending outlandish claims made by any school.

I suppose it's a good thing VMD wasn't around back in the early 80's when the US government was making a concerted effort to ban offshore students from obtaining US licensure. I guess it would seem unfair to mention that the likes of SGU, Ross and AUC were the reasons that there remains a stigma about Caribbean schools and Caribbean students. I guess it might be fair to question why it took so many years for any of these schools to obtain any sort of approval.


Of course, these schools were started by people who would never embellish or lie to students, would they?

If you're going to be sanctimonious, don't live in a glass house.

why dear God i ask do people keep saying 'back in the day' auc, ross, sgu weren't good options, they lied to recruit, they admitted everyone and so on and so on? back in the 80's auc, sgu, ross wouldn't have been my second choice because they were unproven new entities with lots of questions around them. (notice a pattern with the new schools now) the tide could have easily gone the other way.

for the people that made this choice knowing that this may be an issue they have nothing to complain about because they wanted a shot anywhere and they got it. but those that were attracted by the marketing and gusto, passion, determination etc of students there (notice a pattern in terminology describing students at other new schools?)

lets take a look at other 80's misconceptions:

-the pinto was a good car
-new jersey hair looks good
-poison looked masculine
-boy george, wham, and the singer from judas priest were straight

but alas it is the 21st century we know the pinto sucked as much as boy george,wham, and judas priest and we have VMD were medical students that are star struck by that acceptance letter can find out that there are 100 other people out of the 100 that applied receiving the very same stamped form letter asking for a seat deposit and a credit card.....

the likely scenario is that the school was a scam for the first few years with the cambridge marketing campaign until it started making some cash to apply for the right paperwork so everyone after 2000 is likely ok. now back to just waiting for a decision from the gmc and ecfmg.

peace out

jpryor
03-02-2006, 03:43 PM
Well, jpryor, I think you are streching it a bit....as of now, I am pretty unaware of any indications either way. You seem to be assuming that ECFMG and GMC are "crossing the t's and dotting the i's", but I don't know where you are getting that. It seems that these events can be interpreted optimistically or pessimistically, but both are merely guesses.

At this point, the school is a in a tight spot. Nobody knows what will happen. To somehow project that this school is going to be one of the better offshore schools "due to this increased scrutiny" seems pretty irresponsible to me.

As of yet, this school has not passed a single one of the scrutiny processes. You can go back more than 2 years for the state of NY visit, to the more recent ECFMG visit. None are resolved. Therefore, it would seem very prudent to assume that there is more to it than dotting the i's, IMHO.

In choosing or evaluating offshore schools, it would seem prudent to err on the side of pessimism, versus being hopeful and generous in our interpretations of events that we really have zero knowledge of.

If one chooses to ignore IMED completely, the initial letter from the ECFMG, the follow-up letter from ECFMG and the two communiques from the GMC, I can understand being pessimistic. BTW, the ECFMG doesn't do site visits.

Miklos
03-02-2006, 04:00 PM
Heres some other schools to check out in europe. i talked with hungary today, they said they would accept all the basic science credits from St. Chris, they also said if any St. Chirs students wanted to start ASAP that is an option...as there school only started 2 weeks ago, maybe you should look into this option as well.

Advantages
CA approved,
Unfortunately, not for transfers from non-California approved schools.


NY approved (Wycoff hospital to be exact), 6th year is done in NY, 5th year can also be done in the states threw the 5th pathway program, if one want to.
tution is 8000 for the year (Cheap!)
Living costs no more than 275 american per month
I tend to think that 55.000 forint is way too low. Housing is more expensive than that alone.


School has been around for over 70 years
Lots of graduates practising in the States (can easily be found)
Very well recognized in research, can also get MD/Phd program
100% USMLE pass rate, most studets get in the 85-95 precentil range.
No way. There is no way the school has a 100% pass rate.



If you are a EU citizen and grad from here, you dont have to sit the PLAB as Hungary is apart of the EU now.
Approved for ALL loans, Stafford ect. US, Canadain, UK governments will aslo lend money to come to this school. As well as local banks in the US and Canada. so money is NOT a problem

Disadvantages
Bascaiily a 3rd world country still, as almost none of the locals can speak english
I beg to differ.


Have to learn the Hungarian language to deal with patients
Study very hard no 19 point curve or anything like that, most classes require 65 percent to pass (60 percent fail rate after second year, so that speaks for itself, ORAL exams can be difficult
The school will not set up clinical roations for you, this must be done yourself by contacting hospitals and appying, no guaranteed if you will get clinicals in the USA.
Will take LONGER, school is only bisem, and can only take transfers as high as 3rd year

This is how it lays out, both the adv/dis are almost equal.. i transfered to St.Chris cause i heard rotations were a HUGE deal, no language problems, and alot of my family is here. If anyone else wants more info PM me..

medques
03-02-2006, 04:12 PM
In the 80‘s , Ross, Auc, Sgu, may have certainly had the same issues as St. Chris dose now..SOO if I were to think logically wouldn’t the higher end “admin” of St. Chris learn from these mistakes that the other schools have made which resulted in there particular GMC investigations ect ect.and not make the same mistakes as they did..(Which they forsure knew what their mistakes were)…Do you really think Dr…..L and whoever else woke up one day and had a dream about opening a medical school?? Of course not…he has VERY strong connections to some higher end admin in the Caribbean med school market who told him this business has a lot of $$$$ involved .. Its 2006 now and these misconceptions shouldn’t even be and issue. ..if the school was legit at this day in age….it would have avoided these problems and learned from the mistakes of other Caribbean schools??…..and went about this process in the RIGHT way…and...the HONEST way which it did not….thus that’s it why it is in the position it is right now…where it should not even be. ..I did some research and there are some private schools in Asia that opened in 2001 (medical schools) its 2006 now no problems with them…no charter NOTHING?….so WHY this school?? thats what happens to people when they get GREEDY for money they get whats coming to them...SO all your posts protecting the school and saying that "Your GUT feeling says all will be good" is a bunch of ** open your EYES, i dont know what your guts are full off.....fill in the blank yourself...your logic makes no sence..unless the Admin from St. Chirs pay you to post on this site, which in that case it is justified for your support.

And you didnt answer my questions:

Why do you defend the school if you do not go here?...have not seen Luton?...or seen a single face of a Admin person???

medques
03-02-2006, 04:29 PM
user can't play nice ( this post was an attack no infromation about SC was here copy in the Mod forum)

Miklos
03-02-2006, 04:49 PM
Actually, I graduated from a Hungarian medical school, but nevermind that...let's deal with your rant.


Actually, I got it from Pat Park, the Foreign Schools Liason at the Medical Board of California. See her post here (http://www.valuemd.com/115427-post2.html) or contact her yourself. Her contact info can be found here (http://www.medbd.ca.gov/Applicant_Schools_Unapproved.htm).


Depends on whether you dorm it or rent yourself. I, however find it very difficult to believe that one can live on 58.000 Hungarian forint ($275 at current exchange rates) as a foreign student for a month (close to Hungarian minimum wage).

I'd like to suggest that you take a look at some of my posts to verify me... there are plenty of them, especially on the Europe forum.



I know otherwise. Although I know lots of folks with very impressive scores, there are also folks who failed.


User can't play nice
Well, thanks for that very cultured and literate outburst.

Miklos
03-02-2006, 05:10 PM
I know that the user above has been banned, but just to restore my credibility, I'd like to quote from the webpage of the Hungarian university he/she was referring to regarding living expenses.

http://www.ud-mhsc.org/General/FAQ/FAQ8.html


As living expenses for 6 months you need the
following:

Rent for 6 months 6x250 EUR = 1500 EUR
Deposit for 2 months 2x250 EUR = 500 EUR
Living cost for 6 months 6x250 EUR = 1500 EUR
Books, stationary, household needs, transport 6x100 EUR

TOTAL 4100 EUR

Please note, that the costs are calculated postulating
moderate life style and medium category apartment rentals.

Please also note that the current exchange rate of Euro/USD is currently in favor of the Euro. You need 1.2 USD to buy a Euro.

Smythe
03-02-2006, 06:33 PM
user can't play nice


nice vendetta against somebody that tries to speak the truth.

he must have some truth to his statements as he got banned.

The peopele here that speak the truth get banned. If Azskeptic wasn't a moderator he'd have been banned long ago.

Insecure folks can't be challenged. Pity

ol' man
03-02-2006, 06:36 PM
The peopele here that speak the truth get banned. If Azskeptic wasn't a moderator he'd have been banned long ago.

Insecure folks can't be challenged. Pity

Can a moderator get a warning or be banned?

Smythe
03-02-2006, 06:39 PM
Can a moderator get a warning or be banned?

As soon as pigs reach V2 and rotate

OLDPRO
03-02-2006, 07:42 PM
The Poster became banned after many PM's from the MODS (not just one) It had to do with personal attacks, after those PMs warnings were issued for new posts that contained new attacks or refusal to edit such posts. A new attack tonight caused a new warning and the person was automaticaly banned for 7 days. Those who have already been banned and continue to post violations that get a warning will be banned automaticaly (this is by the system not the MOD) ............So be careful what you say about this, it was not about the school it was about Terms of Service violation.

ol' man
03-02-2006, 07:50 PM
Didn't mean for my post to be misconstrued. It was not directed towards you, Whuds. It was just a general question to see if moderators were, like G W (the pres of the US), "immune from prosecution."

Smythe
03-02-2006, 07:54 PM
The Poster became banned after many PM's from the MODS (not just one) It had to do with personal attacks, after those PMs warnings were issued for new posts that contained new attacks or refusal to edit such posts. A new attack tonight caused a new warning and the person was automaticaly banned for 7 days. Those who have already been banned and continue to post violations that get a warning will be banned automaticaly (this is by the system not the MOD) ............So be careful what you say about this, it was not about the school it was about Terms of Service (http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php) violation.

well said.

http://www.valuemd.com/relaxing-lounge/106818-name-vmd-mod.html

OLDPRO
03-02-2006, 07:58 PM
Didn't mean for my post to be misconstrued. It was not directed towards you, Whuds. It was just a general question to see if moderators were, like G W (the pres of the US), "immune from prosecution." Nope but it's done in the Mod forum By others and Admin. You may never know, but yes Mods are disicplined in some way and if too bad they are "De throwned" so to speak. It has happened, but if I told you I'd have to .................................................. ..:shock:

Well you know....;)

If anyone has a problem with any mod please email the Admin here.
They do read the emails also know that all actions are recorded, Mods have a lot of "Paper work" when they perform an action. ( it really is a lot of work more than you will ever know .....unless your a mod)

jpryor
03-03-2006, 07:53 AM
why dear God i ask do people keep saying 'back in the day' auc, ross, sgu weren't good options, they lied to recruit, they admitted everyone and so on and so on?

I raised the issue out of basic fairness. Besides, it's not of historical interest only since the stigma created by these early schools is pervasive and persistent.

It's also a shoddy tactic to criticize a particular school that has been in existence a few years (and one that you personally don't like) for not being California approved, yet be an apologist for another school (one that you do like) that went through a similar process. It must not be a very good marketing ploy to advertise "It only took our school 17 years to obtain approval" since that information isn't listed on the schools' web sites. But you honest types don't mention any of that, do you?

Two years ago, every regular poster and moderator on ValueMD critiqued the school I chose to attend. The constant themes were --Where are the graduates?---Show me somebody in residency---What are the pass rates? etc., etc., etc. The school was only a couple if years old and, under the best of circumstances, wouldn't have had any students who had progressed that far---but the pontificating masses on ValueMD didn't acknowledge those truths. Instead, everybody wanted to puff up their egos and appear parental and experienced and attempted to scare potential students away from the school. And you all sure didn't like me standing up to you. And you don't like it much now, either. There's a consistent attempt to label me as a cheerleader. Odd that I would choose some of the underdogs if that was my inclination. There persists efforts to portray that school as a lesser school. No honest soul steps forward to state that the school may not have a 10,000 book library or a multiple grant-based research program, but its graduates are getting high scores on the USMLE and progressing as well as graduates from any other school. No, there's a group of regular posters who like to drop one-liners sniping at a school--which is why I call you jackals...nipping at the heels.

There's a LOT more I could say on this topic. But I think people can see my drift. I fully expect the regular smart-alecks to come by with their one-liners and display their lack of maturity. But if bringing up the history of the early schools annoys you---oh dear god---then good. Your erzatz elitism wears thin.

chris123
03-04-2006, 04:49 PM
Hello everyone,

I am a former St. Chris student who has left the school recently and has decided to restart at one of the big 3 carib schools. The purpose of this message is to; #1 agree with medques on all of his/her complaints with St Chris, and to #2 tell you, if you are considering St Christopher's, to do all of your research on all foreign medical schools before deciding to go there. After having spent a couple of semesters there, I feel cheated and used.

Everything that I am writing on this post is true. You can PM me if you want more information about me individually and check up my credentials.

Here is my true story:

I, similar to medques (who I do not know by the way), watched a presentation in my city in Canada, and was told the exact same things as medques - that by 2007/2008, the school would be fully accredited by the UK, that difficult states would be no problem for licensure (such as Cali), and that there was an affiliation with a major US school (i.e. John Hopkins).

Even though at that time I had read warning posts about St Christopher’s (which were even up before I had decided to go there), my parents and I agreed that lifestyle in England would be a lot better than in the Caribbean. That was my sole deciding factor really. And also the fact that the presentation done in my city was great, and made St. Christopher's look like a great future medical school.

I had heard horrible things about the administration before going there, but I thought "whatever, its all good, as long as I'm not in the Caribbean.” However, on the first day I arrived in Luton, problems began with the housing coordinator K G. The problems never ceased with housing the entire time I was there.

The administration at the Luton campus is like this: One or sometimes two 18-20 year-old female receptionists, and lots of other people working more than one job inside. The room is about the size of a bedroom. It is horrid. And to think that these young little girls are the ones organizing my clinical rotations and scheduling my medical exams - is unbelievable. Also, I had heard that getting transcripts sent out was ridiculous. It is true. Since they do not have your grades computerized, the administration in New Jersey manually prints your grades on a template, and it can take up to 3 weeks just to send one out (even with a 10 dollar fee). Even though they have a “new” registrar, it still takes forever. Another thing about the administration is that in England you are treated like children. It is like you are in high school all over again. I have never once been treated like that at my former undergraduate institution. They give you no respect, as medical students should. In fact they do not respect your investment at all, it is as if they know in the back of their minds that you cannot go anywhere else (discussed later). In fact this is one of the major reasons I had decided to leave. Another thing about the administration is that they will not tell you anything directly. When the GMC suspension first occurred, students first heard about the news on the news. The rumors spread like crazy, and it was at least a week before the administration said anything to the students to calm them down. Also, this new ECFMG ban is HUGE. DO NOT believe a single thing people say on here, regardless of however positive it may seem. Even if the ECFMG thing is sorted out, there is a major reason why this is happening. Look at the facts - first, the GMC (General Medical Council of Britain) bans us from taking the PLAB, which is bad enough, but everybody thought, "sure, we just can't practice in Britain, but we can still practice in the States - and it’s probably a temporary ban anyway..." Then, the Cleveland clinic story began (discussed in other posts) - everyone's like "ok, we'll just do our fifth semester in Luton." At the same time, our dean disappears because of illness - everyone's like, "ok, he's probably really sick, that’s why he's been gone for a couple months." But now, what everyone has feared has ACTUALLY happened. THE UNITED STATES has placed a hold on writing the USMLE. Obviously guys/girls, just take it as it is, there is something wrong with the school! HELLO???? Wake up!! No matter what people say, it is now written, and people have been banned from writing the most critical exam in medical school. My friend (who I will not name - but I can tell you if you PM me) is currently applying to write the USMLE, but was REFUSED, as they currently do not even accept applications from St Chris students. In fact, they said that if they receive an application, it will be returned to sender, so they won't even put it on hold. No matter what you think right now, that is one of the WORST things that can happen to a medical school. I'm sorry to say that, but not being able to write the USMLE means you cannot do clinical rotations. Even if it is a temporary ban, it is NOT GOOD you guys!! My friend who is currently applying right now has to transfer to another school, get her credits sorted out, and then reapply to the ECFMG in order to write the USMLE - and the administration told her that it would be about 3 weeks to send her transcripts to another school!!!! How dare they.

Just to note: The administration is reason alone to leave St Christopher’s College of Medicine.

So that said about the administration, lets move on to the faculty. Many professors are great. Many professors are not so great. It’s about average. So I'm not going to say too much about that. But the weirdest thing was, random professors and random deans would suddenly disappear from England. None of us would know where they went. One day you're in epidemiology, and then the next day it’s cancelled because Dr _ left. Its weird I tell you. And very very fishy.

Another thing about St Chris (which I have nothing against) is that it is a very conservative environment. I mean, again, I have nothing against other people's beliefs, but it is VERY conservative. It is not what you expect for a medical school in England, which is a very liberal country. This is just to let you know, nothing wrong with it, but just thought you should know if you're thinking of going to St Chris.

Therefore, in the end, after too many lies, too many problems, being treated like children, and the administration having no respect for the students, I decided to leave - like many others.

You’re probably wondering though, “Why are there so many students still at St Chris? And why do they seem to have so much hope?” Let me tell you why from experience. The students there have no other choice. This is one of the few foreign medical schools that have no MCAT requirement. So straight up, if you haven't done the MCAT, you can only apply to very few other places (and none of the big carib schools btw). So that’s the first thing. Second of all, the students came here wanting to take the easy route to becoming a doctor. Getting in, getting through and coming back to the states. I applied to St Chris about 3 weeks before the beginning of the semester, got accepted, and went. The interview process was another whole story - it was done on the phone, and the only question I was asked was, "have you contacted the LMCC to determine whether you can practice in Canada after graduating from this school?" - and I said “no,” and then he said, "make sure you do it, but everything looks good, so you should get ready to leave for England and get your visa prepared." I'm not saying that anyone can get accepted to St Chris, but I knew students over there with a 2.2 GPA, and no MCAT who still got in - come on guys... come on… It should be a little more difficult to get into medical school. So, not only the MCAT requirement throws people off from applying elsewhere, these students CANNOT get ACCEPTED anywhere else.

So in conclusion, I am one of the luckiest St Chris students because I had options, I had great grades and high MCAT scores. All I want from you, whoever is reading this (if you're thinking about St Chris as an option), is to make sure you write the MCAT regardless of whether it is required at your school - it can save your life, and for you to do ALL the research possible. If anything questionable comes up - question it, and get all the information you can. Going to medical school is a MAJOR decision in your life. It is also a CAREER (i.e. long term) decision. DO NOT choose your school based on location (like I did); choose your school based on credentials.

I am ready to sue St Chris, but I'm not going to do it alone. I already have a group of 4 that are ready to do so. If you do too, and want your money back because of investing in a school with false promises, and wasting your life and precious money, PM me.

I'm out.

Tritonesub
03-04-2006, 05:33 PM
post removed by user.

AUCMD2006
03-04-2006, 06:55 PM
"I raised the issue out of basic fairness. Besides, it's not of historical interest only since the stigma created by these early schools is pervasive and persistent."

yes and even though these schools could be compared to some lower tier US schools now, the 30 other schools popping up keep propagating new and worse stigmas to overcome.


"It's also a shoddy tactic to criticize a particular school that has been in existence a few years (and one that you personally don't like) for not being California approved, yet be an apologist for another school (one that you do like) that went through a similar process"

don't like a school? for that i'd first have to care about it. if SC, SJ, even ross or sgu were to fall off the planet tomorrow at 7am, i would say "that sucks" and go ahead eating my wheaties.

you make some great points in most of your posts because from your point of view its all bashing but its not really critizing, its countering spin, false advertising etc that as a prospectice student myself beleived. i don't think i would feel right if i didn't raise valid issues that propective students may not know about...

just last week a prospect asked if aua was lcme so they can apply for loans! this just shows how truly clueless we all are at the begining and why sites like this are an invaluable source to counter balance the barrage of ** that all our schools spew in marketing. even then it doesn't help all the time, just read ahead to chris123 who knew about all these issues and still chose to go, but at least they can't say they didn't know the risks


"It must not be a very good marketing ploy to advertise "It only took our school 17 years to obtain approval" since that information isn't listed on the schools' web sites. But you honest types don't mention any of that, do you?"

not as good as saying a school has a US campus, is affiliated with cambridge, good to go in 48 states, affiliated with john's hopkins, affiliated with harvard, have a twinning program to get staffords, and so on.

honesty? whatever has been asked in the auc, sgu, and i know the ross forum about they school past or present has been answered with no **. after the hurricane SGU'ers critized the schools performance, lack of security, etc. rossie's critize the school for academic policies, crowding, crime. i have personally posted about auc's colorful past, the move from montserrat the time classes were held above the casino, the whore house that followed. so i really don't know what more you want.

"Two years ago, every regular poster and moderator on ValueMD critiqued the school I chose to attend. The constant themes were --Where are the graduates?---Show me somebody in residency---What are the pass rates? etc., etc., etc."

because these are questions you don't think about as a premed. and most of these were asked when there were things said about your school by students who hadn't even stepped on campus yet!

"The school was only a couple if years old and, under the best of circumstances, wouldn't have had any students who had progressed that far---but the pontificating masses on ValueMD didn't acknowledge those truths."

good point, but again this is another thing that most premeds wouldn't think about. we are used to going to schools that are stable, and are regulated so asking how long a school has been around, if they own thier property etc. aren't the typical things we are used to have to worry about

"Instead, everybody wanted to puff up their egos and appear parental and experienced and attempted to scare potential students away from the school. And you all sure didn't like me standing up to you."

again in order to like or not like i'd have to care. i could care less wether you went to st james or st ballsack, as long as the info is there you can make up your own mind

someone already in medschool, having researeched and learned about all these side issues you bring up SHOULD come off as 'parental and experienced' because they are MORE experinced in this matter than you. well just get ready for more parental and experienced advice from residents, attendings.

if you don't take the advice of people who have gone through the process then who would you get it from? someone that will not come off as parental and "experienced"? perhaps the hospital janitor, why don't you ask him on his take on matching, starting a practice, or treating a patient..you can be sure they will not be parental or experinced, perhaps then you will not think they are pontificating and telling you what to do....

you bring up great points but it just seems like you have a problem taking advice, i mean as soon as a question or critiquie comes down from people ahead of you in the process, we are pontificating and critizing, bashing, etc because we are all elitists, and don't know what we are talking about, but you as a premed back then had everything in focus and knew the answers to all these questions.

"There's a consistent attempt to label me as a cheerleader. Odd that I would choose some of the underdogs if that was my inclination."

you aren't a cheerleader, you bring up good points that need to be considered.

"its graduates are getting high scores on the USMLE and progressing as well as graduates from any other school."

thats not the point, every school will have a few people with high scores and many that will pass. the point is for students to know that they will have limitations on what they can do later on. it will not matter if you get a 259 but 20 years later a dream job falls on your lap in cali or any other scenario involiving country of charter, online credits, etc.

"But if bringing up the history of the early schools annoys you---oh dear god---then good. Your erzatz elitism wears thin."

again in order to be annoyed, i'd have to care. the history of the schools should not matter to ANY prospective student. they aren't applying to the st james of 20 years from now which may very turn out to be the best med school on earth in 2026. if it was 1980 then sgu, auc, and ross would not be good options either. i wonder how many other schools we've never heard of collapsed in those days?

Borgy
03-04-2006, 07:11 PM
This website sucks.0

Tritonesub
03-04-2006, 07:55 PM
post deleted by user

AUCMD2006
03-04-2006, 09:34 PM
" I would like to see those individuals held responsible for the hardship that this has caused"*

*part of a quote from a post on this thread that acused people on vmd of being the sole cause for what is going on at SC and requesting that vmd posters be held solely responsible

perhaps you can start with the admin? then move down do some silly open internet forum...

newbieundergrad
03-04-2006, 11:17 PM
Hey Chris123,

Thanks for a detailed explanation of why you left. Much better than how Medques said it. This post definitely will change my choice now.

Borgy
03-05-2006, 12:12 AM
This website sucks.0

teratos
03-05-2006, 05:36 AM
Hey Chris123,

Thanks for a detailed explanation of why you left. Much better than how Medques said it. This post definitely will change my choice now.

You mean you were considering up until the point you read his post :please:

dorsophilia
03-05-2006, 08:19 AM
The points in BOTH posts were RIGHT. Just wanted to say good job guys you are doing an awsome job getting your views across. I heard these same LIES when St.Chris came to Canada to do an interview, i can't believe this. I know alot of people from St.Chris come here and thier minds ARE changing, people are leaving and looking for better options. I really hope other people will share thier stories, as both of you have done. The canadain embassy has found out about this school, and their ON it. Alot of people are going to be sueing the school, they will not get away for making us suffer. Good job medques and Chris123 keep it up!!! please tell more of your friends to post here.

Picard
03-05-2006, 11:10 AM
While I agree with jpryor that the newer schools today are probably in better shape than the older established schools' infancy 30 years ago... and that the whole offshore grad stigma begain with the older schools, I am not as keen on making the comparison in this situation. The reasons are:

It's different time and different political climate. Yes. Every industry (and make no mistake about it, offshore education is an industry) has its beginning. But, every industry as a whole must progress with time. The older, now established offshore schools started the industry with little to go on, and suffered through their growing pains. Nowadays, the industry has had 30 years to "mature." Newer schools have "road maps" to follow, and have the luxury of seeing what worked and what didn't. They are not starting from scratch. They should be held to the standards of TODAY, not standards of 30 years ago.

A similar example can be used in the computer industry. Imagine a new start up computer company making "Apple IIe" computers with 500kb hard drives, and arguing that they should be given a break because 20 years ago when IBM, Mac's were in their infancy, that's the kind of computer they made. And new computer companies should be given a few years to "catch up"... perhaps as much as 20 years to catch up, because that's how long IBM/Mac had to make the products they make today.

Or, imagine a new airplane manufacture goes to NTSB and ask that their new planes be held to the safety standards of 1930's (if there were any), because their company is new... And because Boeing, MacDonald-Douglas have been "given" more than half a century of experience to make the type of plane they make to meet today's safety standards. And this new airplane manufacture should be given the same opportunity to "grow." No, they don't want to ask for much. In fact, they are not asking for 50 years go catch up. They just want 10 years. Would you like to fly in their planes for the next 10 years?

Times are different. Newer schools should be held to today's standard. They cannot compare themselves to the infancy of established schools 30 years ago (where there probably weren't any standards). Newer schools have the ability to draw on the experiences of those who have come before them in this "offshore school industry." They really ought to meet CA (or at least NY) stanards from day one before openning their doors, because that's the current standard of a "good school."

P

jpryor
03-05-2006, 04:33 PM
I'm not in complete disagreement with some of the things said here...but I crashed my laptop today...still don't have it running and so I'm ticked...irritated and frustrated to the point that my girlfriend left the house because of my vocalizations....so it's wiser if I delay responding. You techie types can smile. Those who only know where the key and gas go, like me, can relate.

Bhoot
03-06-2006, 06:14 AM
Just a few points to your very long post, as I am a current student at St. Chris:

The girls in York House ARE very young, but to set the record straight they have nothing to do with scheduling your clinical rotations, etc. They only do administrative paperwork for the basic sciences. Clinical management is done by US staff,
Secondly, dealing with KG for housing and your "tiny room" - ALL the housing in England is outdated, tiny and old. The work ethic is MUCH different than the US, and most employees that I have come in contact, whether at St. Chris or in any working environment in the UK, quite frankly, seem to do as little as possible, take on as little responsibility as possible, and with as little enthusiasm as possible. That seems to be more a mark of the work environment in the UK rather than St. Chris itself. Choosing a school solely for the country you would be living in was certainly not a prudent thing to do. That in itself speaks volumes for your decision making. I don't mean it as a personal attack, but if you had fairly good grades and a high MCAT, why go offshore at all? I also took the MCAT, and while my grade was respectable, it was not competitive, and I knew it. I am also much older and the whole grad school/reapplication route is also not an option for me..but you?
As for profs going in and out, sorry, but that doesn't wash. My class alone has half a dozen transfers from Carib schools, and they have told us that the same things go on at those other schools as well, and their complaints about THEIR former schools is why they transferred.
Of course, I have a stake in this, I am a student at St. Chris, so I do my own checking, calling, etc, because I realize that recruiters are salesmen primarily. At this point, from the information received firsthand, I have no problem in believing that the ECFMG documentation will be provided and resolve that issue. I am not as certain for the GMC, because, though the paperwork is the same, the government is not, and if you see my above statements on the work ethic of those in the UK and multiply that 100 times for bureacracy, then you understand my point.
So, in short, I don't consider myself "pro-SC" or a "SC cheerleader", rather I am working for myself and my future. I HAVE seen letters from Senegalese officials, they have always been posted in the Atrium of the building.
Can someone answer for me, please though, if you are NOT a student at St. Chris or similar school, what meaning all of this has for you? What I mean is, even if I weren't in medical school, I would have so many other responsbilities, such as working, taking care of my family, etc..that I would not have TIME to become such a presence on these forums, and certainly not have a REASON, I have too much of a life...so, I don't get it. People don't do things "just because", so I'm curious?

jpryor
03-06-2006, 07:59 AM
Okay, so I learned that you need to double-check that a 14 MB download to update a driver isn't really a zipped file. But, my laptop is now uncluttered with all the garbage I added to it in the past year (which is nicely compacted in a backup file and I still haven't managed to figure out how to reactivate my 'favorites').

I feel like I'm repeating myself...I have never complained about legitimate criticism of any school. I have levied some of my own. But I do take exception to the baseless accusations and the deliberate efforts of some who distort truths. I don't challenge personal opinions of posters like this Chris123. I read something like that and I get the impression that he isn't happy because he wasn't treated as being special. I had some people in my school who ranted that the school was bad because their maid service wasn't up to the standards they expected. One can't minimize these complaints as they may be exceptionally important to the people making them...but the complaints specific to the actual school itself...well, these forums are filled with similar complaints at every school.

When the charter issue occured at St. Christopher's something seemed amiss to me right from the beginning. Initially, I was as concerned as most people, but I began making inquiries and learned there was substance to the nuances I detected. I have been asked not to discuss it, so it'll have to be left as the 600 lb gorilla hiding behind the sapling.

I'll have to mirror Bhoot's comments above about the unpredictability of bureaucratic response times. But all that is known has not been made public. That which has should reassure those affected that the resolution is coming. That some students are panicking or have decided that the remaining risks are too great are making decisions that are as individual as the reasons all of us considered in selecting a school. As are those students who aren't panicking and aren't running off to other schools.

I'll assume that Bhoot directed his last question to people like me, so I'll answer it. You're right, I have no connection to St. Christopher's. Never have nor will I. I just don't like people who have hidden agendas or who manufacture lies and distortions to profit to the detriment of others.

Borgy
03-06-2006, 09:53 AM
Website sucks..
0

jpryor
03-06-2006, 10:17 AM
The only reason ValueMD is here is because it can provide drama in the forums and attract people for viewing its ads. I don't put must trust into it. Anyone can make an account here and pretty much write anything. Good luck in getting the truth straight when you see people fighting and bickering all over that place.

Oh, the truth is here...you just have to be able to read the tea leaves to find it.

Bhoot
03-06-2006, 11:32 AM
Actually, my questions wasn't directed at you, though I will make it a point to say that I appreciate reading your calm, balanced posts among all the mis-spelled, emotional posts that I tend to read here.

Tritonesub
03-06-2006, 08:11 PM
post deleted by user







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