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redviking
04-11-2003, 11:47 PM
Any information on London Medical College appreciated. I went to their website and it says it is affliated with IUHS.

Cheers! 8)

doogie
04-17-2003, 12:19 AM
I spoke to LMC directly via phone and email. the connection to IUHs is strange and not clear. LMC recently has become a "satellite" campus under the "umbrella" of IUHS. According to LMC, the relationship came about to provide more opportunities to students for online learning in the basic medical sciences as well as "campus options" whatever that means.
It may mean that they intend to offer the traditional basic sciences curriculum online...by using the IUHS taskcare online classroom management/services... Taskcare currently provides the online classroom services for the problem based learning curriculum of IUHS..

Also, the website indicates that LMC offers financial aid..They do not..They (like IUHS) offer unrealistic payment options to students. IUHS charges students $1000 per month per trimester. This is quite difficult to manage if you are single and trying to continue working fulltime. LMC has a similar situation. They offer a scholarship of sorts... this knocks tuition down to $3600 per trimester.. LMC gives you the option to pay this by credit card or in four installments.. $900 per month. According to the LMC represenative "real" loans will not be available to much later this year. I find this a strange coincidence as IUHS is on schedule to supposedly participate in Medachiever/Teri type loans "much later this year". The administration of LMC and IUHS do not offer much more on the relationship between the two schools other than ther is an affiliation.

If you are thinking of doing the online program route... Do not be mislead! IUHS is notorious for painting a rosey picture that online is the answer for the working individual. It is actually more time consuming than sitting in a classroom. The amount of power point presentations, online quizzes, online notes, addendum to online notes, as well as traditional reading assignments is quite voluminous! Oh, almost forgot the 4 hour online end of trimester testing.. Which requires you to have a mentor/tutor present that must be approved by the school in advance..and this cannot be a relative, friend, or co-worker.. IUHS has on occassion gone as far suggesting to students that they take their exams at a local community college and PAY for a tutor to be present for the test! Most schools charge $25-$30 hour for this..so, thats approximately $100 per test! In addition to your tuition costs! Students have been mislead to think that it is possible to maintain a 40 hour work week and successfully complete the online curriculum... NOT SO! Most students at IUHS do not work more than 25 hours per week... Others do not even work ..but are fortunate as their significant other/spouses are supporting the household while they are doing the program... Again, if you are single and in a middle income type job trying to finance this type of education... work fultime..attend online school fulltime is daunting and near impossible! If LMC is setup similar to IUHS then you will face the same dilemmas and obstacles...

Also of concern.. Taskcare dot com manges/provides the online technology for the IUHS online classroom. What is interesting is that the chief financial officer of IUHS is also on the board of directors for taskcare (given by a source which I have been unable to completely confirm) and also is reported that Taskcare is owned by several of the administrators/faculty of IUHS. So, not only are they making money from tuition, teaching, they are also marketing their "dot com educational tool". It would appear/seem that if LMC is under the umbrella of IUHS as a satellite school it is probably due to the fact that several of its faculty are also on faculty with IUHS. The "online program" enables faculty (of both schools) to be anywhere in the world.. Dr. Roderick Neame is the vice chancellor of IUHS and is located in the UK (despite the fact that IUHS is physically located in ST. Kitts). Even more amazing is that his picture appears on the LMC website on the welcoming page! So, the real question is..Are LMC and IUHS basically one and the same? Just two ways of presenting the basic sciences medical scholl curriculum online?!

In addition to this...the majority of students attending IUHS were never informed of the "link" to LMC. Instead most of them discovered this via "suffering the web"...and from questions posed by students from other foreign medical schools!

redviking
04-17-2003, 05:09 PM
Thanks for all the good information!

I went and checked London Medical College on the FAIMER website http://imed.ecfmg.org/search.asp and to my surpirse, it was not listed as a "satellite campus" under IUHS of St. Kitts. However, IUHS was listed and is recognized as a foreign medical school in St. Kitts.

:o

circus
04-19-2003, 12:21 PM
Doogie,

I believe that you must done some research, but I think that you failed to understand some very important basic issues. First, 3500 to 4000 dollars per semester is a very reasonable tuition rate for Medical School - compare that to the 10 thousand dollar plus rate for Ross, the 6 thousand plus rate for many of the other schools in the caribbean. This is not an unreasonable amount by any means. Secondly, you have posted the complaint regarding the testing amounts for the IUHS examinations. Again, I think that this should in fact be lauded - this is a way for a school to ensure the validity of their testing methods, and the results that students achieve. It is fair for all other students when being compared to each other to know that everyone played on a level field, and the results mean something. Paying 100 dollars per semester for testing is again, not unreasonable - it is much less than having the school arrange the examinations through Prometric, for example.

I don't know anything about the London Medical College per se, but I went to their website as well. What I got out of the website is that they are a "satellite campus," in that the studentst that study there receive their degrees from IUHS, not from LMC. I believe that information is posted right on their website. I don't think that there is anything not openly revealed there - it appears that both IUHS and LMC are being very straight forward with their disclosurese of the relationships between the schools.

As for the work of medical school and the difficulty of maintaining a full time job - medical school is difficult. You have to put in the time and effort to learn. You have to read, read, and read some more. I don't understand why anyone would complain about receiving "volumes," of supplementary study material from a school - that is what every student wants. It is better to have concise, thorough material than having to read large textbooks for each class. At least that is my opinion.

Again, everyone has to make the decisions regarding their school choices themselves. But the problems that you communicate in your post do not seem to be very severe, or even warrant much complaining.

doogie
04-20-2003, 11:11 PM
Circus,

First, I would like to point out that my reply to redviking was not "complaining" as you indicate several times in your post. I was and I am simply stating the facts. If these facts are negative this does not constitute a "complaint".

Regarding tuition for London Medical College and IUHS, 3600 to 4000 dollars is very reasonable at first glance..especially compared to ROSS, SABA, St. Matthew's, and St. George's. However, these schools participate in student loan programs. Expecting a medical student to pay $900 to $1000 per month (in lieu of student loan funds) remains unrealistic for a "certain catagory" of medical student.

The type of student I describe may only earn between $40-$50K per year. (For discussion sake I will use national averages). If this person is single and earning $50K, after tax take home pay is approxiamtely $2850 per month. Subtract from this: any rent/mortgage, car insurance, car payment, utilities, misc bills, and groceries. The estimated national living budget for a major metropolitan area is $1350 per month ($2850-$1350 =
$1500). Now, subtract tuition from this $1500-1000= $500. Expecting a person to surivive with $500 in the bank (or less) is not realistic.

Obviously, medical school is a huge financial burden. Anyone that has embarked on this path is fully aware of the economic implication. Student loans are what help to make this education attainable for many. It appears that the type of student best suited for attending schools such as IUHS or LMC would be married/attached in a two income household or this person is from an upper economic class.

Strange that you make mention of Prometric. This is the agency that IUHS use to contract with to administer its testing. IUHS abandoned use of Prometric after the evolution/development of taskcare dot com. This is the agnecy that administers/services the online classroom AND all testing. According to several students from IUHS, they were not informed of the details pertaining to test adminstration, nor that they would incur added test expenses, prior to their enrollment at IUHS. Also, I was mistaken with the quotation of the $100. It has been brought to my attention that students at IUHS have 2 block exams within one trimester. Therefore, the cost of testing is $200 per semester in addition to tuition.

I am in agreement with your point that a monitored/proctored test setting is the only manner in which to ensure the validity of online learning/testing. I do not agree that the student should have to shoulder this added expense (especially if you are the student described in the example above) without full disclosure of this added cost prior to enrolling at the institution. The main reason I made mention of this fact in my reply to redviking was not to "complain" but provide him/her with the facts pertaining to expenses that he/she would encounter.

The chief financial officer of IUHS is one of the developers/board members of taskcare dot com. To an outside third party it might appear that IUHS may not have wanted the continued expense of a contract with prometric, and this lead to the development of taskcare dot com. Now, the responsiblity for finding an approved test site, an approved proctor, and the expense of testing lies clearly with the student. I believe that potential students should be aware of this before submitting their application and application fee to IUHS. If they have full disclosure of all possible expenses, testing proceedures, text requirements etc., in advance of submitting their application fee, application, or even their seat deposit...they will at least be able to make the best decision for themself and will at least be able to make an "informed" choice.

While researching which medical school to select, I have spoken directly to LMC. According to their rep, they are a "bonafide satellite campus" of IUHS. When a person graduates from LMC the degree will read "London Medical College under auspices of the International Univ of Health Sciences".

Medical school is unquestionably difficult. People that have chosen to pursue this course of study are well aware of the rigor/concentration/sacrafice that it entails. You erroneously assumed that my commentary pertaining to the "volumes of material" downloaded by IUHS students was unjustified. Also, IUHS student are required and expected to read ALL the same required texts as other programs IN ADDITION to ALL the power point presentations, online notes, addenda to online notes, and quizzes. Recently, an IUHS student advised me that the number of pages of material they were required/expected to download in one trimester ranges from 2000 (for a lite trimester) to 3000! AGAIN, This is in addition to the required text readings and assignments. Unfortunately, the students with whom I have spoken indicate that they must wade through ALL the material; as some professors will only take their exam questions from the text while others only from the notes. I do not find - nor do the students that I have spoken with- that 2000 to 3000 pages in addition to the required text reading to be a "concise" method of presenting material.

The problems faced by IUHS students, as expressed to me while questioning them regarding their program, are indeed challenging and difficult. While they may not seem severe (in your opinion) those students that are struggling through them would disagree. At the risk of being redundant, my reply to redviking was not a complaint. It is simply... according to my research... the reality of students attending IUHS and more than likely LMC.

sam kurenai
04-22-2003, 06:53 PM
After all, downloading and reading all that material seems more rigorous at prima facie.

What are your objective thoughts about this?

Sam

Gummas
05-31-2003, 01:18 AM
The web site of London Medical College is no longer functioning. Does anyone know if LMC still exists? Did it ever? Does IUHS still have LMC as its campus in England? THANKS.

mutig25
09-21-2003, 04:47 PM
The website is running as of today. I was just there.

http://www.mcl-edu.co.uk

As far as its affiliation, here is what the website says:

"Medical College of London operates as a UK affiliate of the College of Medicine and Health Sciences, St. Lucia, who grants the primary medical qualification for students enrolled in the M.D. program via an affiliate agreement. "

I hope this is helpful.

Gummas
09-21-2003, 08:49 PM
Mutig25: The web site you noted is the Medical College of London. However, the alleged London affiliate of St. Kitts' IUHS campus is "London Medical College". Evidently, MCL and LMC are separate institutions, each affiliated with a different, "off-shore" main campus. To repeat an earlier question: Does anyone know if the IUHS affiliated "London Medical College" really exists in England, did it ever really exist, and, are there any on-campus students at LMC in England? For that matter, does IUHS still have dlp students, how many on-camps (St. Kitts) students are there now, and what is the DLP-program, USMLE Step One pass rate?

azskeptic
09-21-2003, 11:37 PM
Either way, both will be relatively 'suspect' schools since you have little chance of licensing if you attend schools that are 'virtual' and not WHO approved in the place where they are teaching.

These schools are trying to attract 'idiots' who don't do checking and realize they have little chance of getting licensed if you attend one of them.

I don't understand why the English govt. doesn't do something about them.

see www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com

###
09-22-2003, 01:31 AM
.....................

bts4202
09-22-2003, 04:17 AM
Either way, both will be relatively 'suspect' schools since you have little chance of licensing if you attend schools that are 'virtual' and not WHO approved in the place where they are teaching.

Although I agree that IUHS and MCL are both suspect schools and that MCL does not have a charter... I have to bring it to your attention that what I bolded is an insignificant point.

Firstly, of all of the caribb schools, which one is WHO listed in the USA or britian? The answer is none, however much if not all of the clinical teaching is done in the US and/or britian. If teaching must be done in the country of charter, then all of these schools would become instantly extinct. Plus, that does not even address the fact that several schools have basic science semesters in the US such as Ross(miami) and St. Mathews (maine).

I know that it is not medical schools, but many US schools have sattelite campuses in different states and even different countries (Ga Tech has a great deal of campuses internationally). I still fail to realize how that is an unethical practice?

I do agree that distance learning is wrong. I do think that every medical student should be on a campus and in labratories during their medical education. I also agree that if a school has its own name, it should have its own charter(MCL) and not have its degrees rubber stamped by a internet medical school. However, I have to disagree that sattelite campuses are wrong.

azskeptic
09-22-2003, 11:23 AM
WHO approval comes for the school after the country issues a letter recognizing the school. England won't recognize virtual medical schools.

distance education for things that don't require labs,etc. seem possible but NO us medical school is doing distance education for their students in the first 2 years. Shortly I believe you will see a ruling in the US that will BAN students getting licensed who haven't physically attended their schools...this will render the virtual schools worthless.

Az Skeptic
www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com

bts4202
09-22-2003, 11:43 AM
WHO approval comes for the school after the country issues a letter recognizing the school.

That is exactley right.


England won't recognize virtual medical schools

That is also right


I believe you will see a ruling in the US that will BAN students getting licensed who haven't physically attended their schools

I also agree with you here. However there is a discrepancy in your terminology. There is a difference in a virtual school (distance learning) and a satellite campus (on campus learning at different site than main campus). Re-read my post when you have a minute, there are many institutions that have satellite campuses.

azskeptic
09-22-2003, 12:49 PM
Yes, there are satellite campuses. But you are required to go there to go to class. The 'virtual' schools (UHSA,MCL,IUHS,Oceania,etc.) are basically setup as traps to get DC's, DPM's, DDS's, and RN's to continue working full time and 'attending' medical school via the internet. A few may slip through the system in terms of licensing but ultimately when the states realize that they didn't go to the school itself (or an approved satellite that meets WHO approval I suppose) they risk losing their licenses.

I realize that St. Christophers is a 'satellite' of an African school but it appears to be working so I wouldn't sweat it. Another African school St. Luke, is not in the same situation...their MD degrees are worthless from what I can learn....NO ONE has got licensed or even a residency who attended their virtual school that anyone can find.

Az Skeptic

sam kurenai
09-22-2003, 09:53 PM
Are you a Medical student? If not, are you pissed because you could not go to med school and decide to take on a "crusade" of your own?

I am curious,can someone tell me, 5 or 10 years from now , once some U.S. Medical schools start doing their BASIC sciences virtually, who will be here to criticize them? Or is it that NO ONE can take the initiative to take advantage of technology in medical education and do it right unless is the all mighty US. of America? Are poeple in this forum that ignorant?

There are indeed some bad schools out there, but lets face the facts, and the facts are people are gangbanging these schools because they are foreign schools, some people just can't take the pill that somoene outside the U.S. jumped the gun and started this virtual education miasma. Some of these schools are bad, yes, but some are well intentioned.

By the way Az Skeptic, OSU, has been doing distance learining in basic sciences for some reasonable time now. This is not new. OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY SOM. Check their website. Also this has been done in a "little" country called Australia for quite a while. Sydney to be precise.

Hey, you Az skeptic, I want to debate this with you, if you are wiling to do so objectively. Are you game? Lets brainstorm a little bit.

My rules are simple...no personal insults. no bigotry, no foul language, no fanaticism.

Wanta play??? :twisted:

azskeptic
09-22-2003, 10:06 PM
sure,let's talk.

I'm 52,not a medical student,nor interested in being one. I have 2 interests in this...1. my son is contemplating medical school so want to know all the possibilities. 2. I am interested in battling quackery. Got interested in offshore medical schools after seeing schools advertising to chiropractors,dentists,etc. that they can continue their full time practices and go to medical school via the internet. Started studying how medical education is done in the US and realized that in no shape or form are schools that offer distance education equivalent to US medical schools.

I am not a frustrated doctor wanna-be...not my interest. I have been a consumer advocate working on a host of medical issues for a few years. I am well read,know alot of people, and happy to discuss things. Not interested in internet wars....have been on the internet with an email address since 1983..host alot of listservs and know how things are.

I am a cheerleader for those who are doing the sacrifices to become physicians. You who go to offshore medical schools and change your residence are gutsy and brave folks. Reminds me of when I saw Russian physicians emigrate to Israel back in the 80's and have to learn many new things. Impressive.

I am not anti-chiropractors--have a few friends who are DC's...I am skeptical about those who are looking for easy ways of learning. Everything costs something. I believe in scientific evidence based medicine. I believe that education is a wonderful thing and our society depends on well educated physicians to help us with our health. But as Judge Judy says "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it is raining". I believe that because some courses are taught via distance education doesn't mean that you can stay home and do your chiropractic/dental/podiatric practices and attend school on the internet at night. I believe that state medical boards are smarter than that also and have personally spoken or corresponded with every medical board in the US and Canada.

Best regards:

az skeptic

sam kurenai
09-23-2003, 10:27 AM
And the issues I am addressing you are the following, just to refresh your memory...

"can someone tell me, 5 or 10 years from now , once some U.S. Medical schools start doing their BASIC sciences virtually, who will be here to criticize them? Or is it that NO ONE can take the initiative to take advantage of technology in medical education and do it right unless is the all mighty US. of America? "

"There are indeed some bad schools out there, but lets face the facts, and the facts are people are gangbanging these schools because they are foreign schools, some people just can't take the pill that somoene outside the U.S. jumped the gun and started this virtual education miasma."

"By the way Az Skeptic, OSU, has been doing distance learining in basic sciences for some reasonable time now. This is not new. OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY SOM. Check their website. Also this has been done in a "little" country called Australia for quite a while. Sydney to be precise"

Those are the issues I want you to address objectively. Not your biography, with all due respect.

Can you add something to my arguement? Lets stir the pot a little bit. :twisted:

azskeptic
09-23-2003, 11:18 AM
Ok, let's compare the two programs:

the faculty at OSU SOM

http://medicine.osu.edu/about/schoolsdepartmentscenters.cfm

compare that to the listing at IUHS:

http://www.iuhs.edu/html/faculty.html
(check and see how many of their faculty are actually fulltime and
even on the island of St. Kitts)

or at UHSA

http://www.uhsa.ag/admin_faculty/

That Ohio uses "some" distance education doesn't negate the fact that they have close supervision of their students and they don't give advanced placement to non-medical school people like the above schools do. They don't ask their students to get help from 'big brothers/big sisters' who have been in the schools before them. They have full blown research programs going on and ample opportunities for their students to get into clinicals.

But let's talk brass tacks. Offshore medical schools are not the full thing but they are your choice if you don't have the grades to get into a US medical school or if you are a non-traditional student (older,educated in something else). Nothing wrong with it. It is a different way. But if you want to be a US doctor you need to go to medical school,not peer through a computer and go out and find a 'mentor' on your own.

The state boards realize that there is a problem and shortly you'll see more states (last count I figure there were 20 states where you can't license if you were to graduate with a distance education MD) rule that these degrees are worthless. If you don't believe me, contact your states and ask them about getting a degree from a school that you don't physically attend.

I don't know about Sydney Australia. But is has nothing to do,in my humble opinion, with distance education,which can be a tool. The problem with the current schools I mention (www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com) is that they have ragtag groups of professors, non-existent facilities basically, poor supervision of their students, no help for their students, and provide little chance of licensing.

Don't take my word for it. Just contact the state boards and ask them. Ask them what they are talking about in their Administrators in Medicine meeting in October in Orlando Florida. My goal as a consumer advocate is to see all of the states in the US require that foreign graduates meet the same equivalency as US med schools and if you are one of the people doing the 'virtual med school attempt' if I was a betting man, I would bet you that you have major problems in getting licensed in most states,perhaps all states. This same thing happened in the 1980s when some chiropractors went to Russia for an advanced MD program--it took the boards a while to catch on but they pulled the licenses.

Glad to dialogue.

Az Skeptic-Dean Hughson

sam kurenai
09-24-2003, 10:16 AM
For starters, IUHS requires some minimum on site attendance, If you don't belive me, go there by yourself, I did. The facilities are bad, true, but they have had quite an improvement in their last USMLE STEP I results with 6 out of six students passing with an average of 88. And they have a pathetic long distance program, according to you and some other people.

And, to correct you, there are more than 20 states that have a problem with long distance education. I did that homework in August 2002. By the way, there are barely 7 states that will allow licensure from this kind of program, and you know why? Because they can care less how you did your BASIC SCIENCES COURSES, what matters to them is that you did CLINICAL ROTATIONS in green book hospitals and have residence training At least there are some open minded people out there.

Lets not loose the true perspective here, we are talking about long distance education for basic sciences ONLY. NOT CLINICALS, that will be preposterous and ridiculous. Are you aware that in many U.S. Schools sutdents barely attend class? I remember, at a student orientation at a prestigious osteopathic school that senior students were telling us that they did not have time to sleep through classes and spent time studying on their own. These are folks that are now practicing and licensed physicians. Ask at any major medical school and you will be surprised by the amount of students that never show up in class.

I don't see a problem with a school asking students to ask for help to their "big brother or sister" who have been in school before. That is called mentoring.

Again , you have not answered my question....were are you going to be when many U.S. SCHOOLS TAKE ON THIS APPROACH. I KNOW YOU WILL NOT DARE TO CRITICIZE BECAUSE IT WILL BE AN OMNIPOTENT U.S. school, you are already biased.

Just to blow your bubble, Sydney, Australia has everything to do with distance education in medical school basic sciences. They originated it, NOT IUHS. Ask them.

Concerning you comments, that
"The problem with the current schools I mention (www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com) is that they have ragtag groups of professors, non-existent facilities basically, poor supervision of their students, no help for their students, and provide little chance of licensing."
NO ONE CAN GUARANTEE LICENSING WHEN YOU COME FROM AN OFFSHORE SCHOOL.



ABOUT THE FLORIDA MEETING, LET ME BREAK YOU THE NEWS, IT WAS ME, WITH A GROUP OF PISSED OFF STUDENTS FROM SOME Caribbean Schools who first filed complaints in Florida about some of these schools, and we did that in 2001. It takes time for a State to investigate , that simple.

Now, can we address the issue I asked, about why if it was not done in the U.S. it was not good enough? You have barely addressed that issue and that is my question. Lets get into it. I already cited Australia, St.Kitts as examples. Tht the St. Kitts program is deficient, maybe, but having so many students passing the same exam with relatively good scores as their U.S. counterparts should ring a bell, don't you think so?

Besides, it is not basic sciences what really makes a good doctor, it is how good they are in their rotations and hands on practice. Do you have any idea, how many U.S. students with high grades during basic sciences don't make it through clinicals? Ask yourself that question before you let your blindfolded bias take over your thoughts. Be objective, open your mind, the world is bigger than you see it.

Remember, the robe does not make the monk, it just identifies him.

Before you speculate, I am studying medicine in Mexico, in my 6th year(Mexico is different from the states, it takes six years of med-school, one year social services and one year slave work before you graduate. I JUST don't see a problem with distance education for basic sciences, thats my thing and I believe that for basic sciences, it should not be that big of a deal as long as you pass your USMLE's and do clinicals in real hospitals. Actually thats what IUHS and maybe St.Luke is all about. But of course the phrase..."DISTANCE EDUCATION" FREAKS ALMOST EVERYONE OUT and does not leave space to get deeper into what really is all about.

Now, can you address my question? It was in my first message and second, I won't repeat it bacause it is becomming boring.

:twisted: sayonara

azskeptic
09-24-2003, 11:12 AM
medical school is more than just studying science..it is a whole process that includes modeling after your professors,etc. I do not believe that med schools in the US or other first worlds will go to solely online study for the first 2 years but who knows. I do not believe that US med schools are the best/only way to go...but I do believe that professors qualifications have some direct bearing. There are many people with science backgrounds who could probably pass the USMLE's without going to med school....but that isn't the only thing one needs.

It appears I'm not going to answer your question with the answers you want but lets say this...I admire you for going to a Mexican med school. They prepare good doctors. I volunteer with Doctors To The World/Dentists To The World and we have seen the good work of Mexican drs/dentists in the rural health centers where young doctors must intern. With relatively poor equipment they turn out good medicine. I witnessed birds flying out of an operating suite in Gtz. Zamora,Veracruz, where my wife is from. Our group donated an air conditioner so that they could close up their operating room again.

Medical education is complex to non-medical people like me but I am thinking that I prefer my care providers to have gone to medical school and not through the computer. As one med school prof told me "I help people learn things by throwing them the mike and asking them to describe something on the fly...a skill they must learn when they have to make decisions in a similiar fashion in real life. I want to see the whites of their eyes as they deal with stress and I can help them."

Az-Skeptic Dean Hughson

Picard
09-24-2003, 09:18 PM
The first two years of medical school are not merely "prep courses" for USMLE Step I. It's for you to build the basic foundation of a career in medicine. Otherwise, why not just go the Kaplans review courses? I'm sure people can pass USMLE Step I simply with Kaplan's review courses. Besides, 6 students is hardly a statistically significant number in terms of statistical power.

There are things in the first two years of medical school that simply cannot be taught by computer. Things like Physical Diagnosis. You simply cannot teach someone how to palpate a liver, auscultate heart sounds... etc by computer. Plus, patient interview skills, patient contact (you know, the art of medicine) simply cannot be taught in the sterile setting of internet... you need actual people. This is why, as you said, there are superb basic science students who do miserably in their clinical years. And this is why intergrating patient contacts from the very first semister of med school is crucial in educating competent physicians in both the science and ART of medicine. Most medical schools do this nowadays... and this is why, to answer your question, Basic Science education in the US will NEVER be completely internet driven. Real world patient contacts, guided by experienced clinicians/professors must start from Day 1 of medical school. And, medical school is a full time endever... it's not something you can do part time on the internet while holding a job. In fact, most US schools prohibts their students from working during school year.

So, to quote one of my professors again, the first two years of medical school is not a "prep course" for Step I. If that's all it takes to become a competent physician, Kaplans would have become the premier medical school in the US with branch campuses in every town.

Picard

sam kurenai
09-25-2003, 10:15 AM
Because like you well indirectly stated, it is a matter of opinion. I base mine on many years dealing with different characters from different medical schools, and I have seen my fair share of everything. From those who consider basic sciences as a prep course for the USMLE(Both from the U.S. as wel as Caribbean schools) to those who consider basic sciences sacred religion. I have seen excellent basic sciences students who don't have a clue as to how medicine works until their clinical years, some in residency. (Both U.S. and Caribbean) and I have seen those who have mastered this science from day one.


Unfortunately the medical boards won't license people from KAPLAN studies. I agree though, that many exceptionally brilliant people who have never seen a medical school can take and pass the USMLE with a KAPLAN REFRESHER COURSE. and that is precisely my point concerning distance education and BASIC SCIENCES.

I do believe, however that eventually many,NOT ALL, U.S. Schools will do their basic sciences online, or independently like O.S.U. with some sort of supervision. My point is, that by the day they attempt this, it has already been done in Australia and the Caribbean. That the IUHS Model may be a failure or not, let time be the judge of that, not us. At least it has not been a failure at Ohio State or Sydney.

In my case, as long as the guy stiching me passed his clinicals and residency at a good hospital and passed his boards and is respected among his peers, I can care less were he learned basic sciences.

WE are all speculating here as to how the future will turn out. Some of us are more optimistic than others. This has been a great exercise.

Lets remember, the future is just once second ahead of us, and the past is one second behind.

I am leaving now for my 32 hour shift.

Sayonara :twisted:

sam kurenai
09-25-2003, 10:30 AM
Six students may not be significant for statistical purposes, but how do you think that SGU, in Grenada started? It was a laughing stock just like IUHS IS NOW. a REFUGEE SCHOOL for U.S. STUDENTS WHO COULD NOT MAKE IT HERE. I was in the Coast Guard in 1983 when the U.S., invaded Grenada and we rescued those first students. I wish you could have seen those facilities, it was pathetic.

That said, look at how respected SGU is 20 some years later. They grew and matured, maybe IUHS will do the same, who knows. But the same criticism you and many others give to this particular school, are exactly the same Ross, AUC and SGU had many years ago. Regardless all these schools are considered and will always be considered money making machines. Some do it better than others.

I base my opinion on many years dealing with different characters from different medical schools, and I have seen my fair share of everything. From those who consider basic sciences as a prep course for the USMLE(Both from the U.S. as wel as Caribbean schools) to those who consider basic sciences sacred religion. I have seen excellent basic sciences students who don't have a clue as to how medicine works until their clinical years, some in residency. (Both U.S. and Caribbean) and I have seen those who have mastered this science from day one.


Unfortunately the medical boards won't license people from KAPLAN studies. I agree though, that many exceptionally brilliant people who have never seen a medical school can take and pass the USMLE with a KAPLAN REFRESHER COURSE. and that is precisely my point concerning distance education and BASIC SCIENCES.

I do believe, however that eventually many,NOT ALL, U.S. Schools will do their basic sciences online, or independently like O.S.U. with some sort of supervision. My point is, that by the day they attempt this, it has already been done in Australia and the Caribbean. That the IUHS Model may be a failure or not, let time be the judge of that, not us. At least it has not been a failure at Ohio State or Sydney.

In my case, as long as the guy stiching me passed his clinicals and residency at a good hospital and passed his boards and is respected among his peers, I can care less were he learned basic sciences. Bear in mind, many U.S. SCHOOLS as well as MANY international schools won't let you to see patients during basic sciences. The great exception I would say are Osteopathic schools. Notice is used the word MANY, not all, so I am being exclusive not inclusive here.

WE are all speculating here as to how the future will turn out. Some of us are more optimistic than others. This has been a great exercise.

Lets remember, the future is just once second ahead of us, and the past is one second behind.

I am leaving now for my 32 hour shift.

jenn-jenn
09-25-2003, 01:10 PM
Usually when daddy and mummy are dishonest, so are the children.

This school is run under the St Kitts charter of IUHS. After almost a year it still has not got its own charter.

But if you can understand the dishonesty of its parent school IUHS, you can understand that you might face certain challenges here even if you attend full time.

I would stay away from this place. There are other places to go. Find out if its incorporated in St Kitts too, cause if so, if anything goes wrong, you will have no recourse.

exiuhs
10-07-2003, 04:01 PM
just checking and see

exiuhs
10-07-2003, 10:53 PM
so just plain and simply... it sucks

eliasaris
07-28-2007, 04:54 PM
Hello. The London Hospital Medical College (LHMC) merged with St. Bartholomew's Hospital Medical College (SBHMC) despite much resistance between both parties in the early 90s forming Barts and the London School of Medicine (BLSM), which I go to. Merges between medical school was a trend at that time in London. Unfortunately many medical schools lost their identities. It pains me to say that BLSM is now the medical faculty of Queen Mary, University of London (which we all hate with passion!). You can go to the BLSM website by following this link:Welcome to Barts and The London, Queen Mary's School of Medicine and Dentistry (http://www.smd.qmul.ac.uk)
Do not be confused by a new private medical college (London Medical College) which has nothing whatsoever to do with the Royal London Hospital.

eliasaris
07-28-2007, 04:55 PM
Hello. The London Hospital Medical College (LHMC) merged with St. Bartholomew's Hospital Medical College (SBHMC) despite much resistance between both parties in the early 90s forming Barts and the London School of Medicine (BLSM), which I go to. Merges between medical school was a trend at that time in London. Unfortunately many medical schools lost their identities. It pains me to say that BLSM is now the medical faculty of Queen Mary, University of London (which we all hate with passion!). You can go to the BLSM website by following this link:Welcome to Barts and The London, Queen Mary's School of Medicine and Dentistry (http://www.smd.qmul.ac.uk/)
Do not be confused by a new private medical college (London Medical College) which has nothing whatsoever to do with the Royal London Hospital.







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