one thing to consider is permanent licensure after you are done with residency. A LOT OF STATES require 90 hours of undergrad in order to get permanent licensure. There are some that only require 60, but I would say the majority want atleast 90. you could even complete your M.D., complete a residency, and still have problems with this. look into it. if the state(s) you are interested in only requires 60, great, but if not, keep doing those undergrad courses.

There are lots of sources. Open your eyes and you'll see plenty.

First, from my own experience, I know that medical student lists I've seen scarcely have a male name on them let alone one I could pronounce. This is over a period of two years working as a nurse at a hospital. Second, University of Ottawa declared it had one competitve GPA for designated groups and one for the non-designated. University of Calgary bragged years ago how it had exceeded its quota of 50% female in it's medical program. Numerous other programs come right out and say that they have set aside seats from francophones and natives only etc. Mostly though, this kind of information is hidden from the public to keep the appearence of fairness. The Univeristy of Northern Ontario specifically told me of seats set aside for designated groups when contacted.

I would like to know how a doctor's son with 90+ percentile, male and white, with a masters degree, can't get into medical school after numerous attempts, and yet members of the designated groups, including female students, can get in with an incomplete bachelors and lower GPAs, but that's just me.

First do no harm - affirmative action medical school student Patrick Chavis has medical license suspended for gross negligence - Brief Article National Review - Find Articles

National Review, October 13,1997:

Source from Website above: (Affirmative Action in medical schools has been going on for a long time. Where have you been?)

"Until recently, Patrick Chaviss claim to fame was that he was admitted to the University of California at Davis Medical School as an affirmative-action student in 1973 the year Allan Bakke was rejected. Because of Chaviss outspoken advocacy of racial preferences, the media sometimes referred to him as "the student admitted in Bakkes place although, strictly speaking, he was one of several possibilities.

Chavis went on to become an obstetrician/gynecologist in Compton, California, a mostly minority suburb of Los Angeles. Chavis also became a much-celebrated symbol of racial preferences. When the New York Times Magazine published Nicholas Lemanns ten-page paean to affirmative action in 1995, Dr. Chaviss picture graced the cover. Inside was a full-page photograph of him cradling a newborn.

During the Proposition 209 campaign, his name was difficult to escape. Sen. Edward Kennedy (D., Mass.) called him a "perfect example of the enormous dividends affirmative action has paid. Tom Hayden and Connie Rice argued that by practicing medicine in Compton, Dr. Chavis had contributed more to society than Dr. Bakke had: "Bakkes scores were higher, but who made the most of his medical-school education? From whom did California taxpayers benefit more?

Then came the fall from grace. Two months ago, citing his "inability to perform some of the most basic duties required of a physician, Judge Samuel Reyes ordered Dr. Chaviss license suspended. His "gross negligence and "incompetence had led to the death of one patient and near-fatal injuries to others. Allowing Chavis to continue practicing medicine, the judge wrote, would "endanger the public health, safety, and welfare." (end snippet: remainder of article at link above.)
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BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Mixed ruling on US affirmative action


And Canada's McGill University, for example, reports that medical seats this year were 60.5 % women and 39.4% men. Those just aren’t good odds if you’re a guy. Quotas? Absolutely, professional schools like Medicine are rife with them. Do the school officials come right out and say it all the time, no, they try to hide the fact as much as possible.

? HUh?

Tell me where they're running if you are under the delusional opinion that they still exist. Premedical programs here don't exist, apart from the one I specified to the best of my knowledge. If you know of a couple of others, then by all means list them here. Bachelor's degrees in science are generally used for entry to medicine, but premedical programs, specifically those which could be completed in less than 4 years, simply do not exist.

Prove me wrong by all means.

(Source: Canada)

Are you using your own definition of "premedical program?"

Do you mean a degree major called something like "Premedical Studies?" That would give absolutely no advantage whatsoever over a degree major in anything else with the prerequisite courses for medical school included. That this isn't common is nothing to complain about.

Do you mean a program offering those courses for someone with a bachelor's degree without them? Just get into any university or university college as a non-degree-seeking student. This is common and easy. Or apply for a second bachelor's degree in general science or biology or something; this might give some preference if the prerequisite classes were oversubscribed. You wouldn't have to finish the second degree. But hey, guess what? If premedical classes are oversubscribed, Canada certainly hasn't "closed" premedical programs.

I still don't get with certaintly what you mean. You say "closed" and that they don't "still exist." Name what they used to be called and where they used to be found. Explain why they offer anything required for medical school admission just taking the classes required for medical school, doing volunteer work on ones own, etc. wouldn't offer.

Then there are probably male names you don't recognize.

Absolutely not. I've also by the way, SEEN them. And can tell that very, very few of the med students have been male. Live in denial though, there are plenty of others living there with you at any given time.

So you're driven to medical school at Xavier because Canadian, and I suppose American mainland, medical schools are so full of non-whites and women, these non-whites and women being admitted are the reason for your not, and all this is apparently leaving you a bitter, sputtering wreck?

Xavier Photo Galleries.

You're gonna learn you some irony.

Edited to add: jasano describes his position more fully in a later post below: "I have no problem whatsoever with the majority of a student population being non-white, or women for that matter. What bothers me is when quotas are used to put them there ahead of more qualified individuals." I will take him at his word.

[won't bother quoting again, but jasano is playing the "reverse racism" card, talking about doctors with names who when he can pronounce them are all female, blaming affirmative action at Canadian and American medical schools for all this]

From the Xavier homepage, "Latest News," omitting surnames to respect the ValueMD house rules:

2007 Scholarship Recipients
• Shariff
• Rachel
• Stephanie
• Rushikesh
• Lesley
• Amanjot
• Ajayjeet

That is the complete list.

So anyway, you jumped over the posting about quotas and affirmative action, so I assume that you believe in inequality and the entitlements of the entitled, so I'll view everything you say from that vantage point henceforth. Fair enough?

When it comes to premed, what I mean is a course of study specifically designed for entry into medicine. That is to say, not a course designed as a degree in and of itself, no, unless that degree was designed specifically as a premedical program degree - such programs do exist in the United States.

Many universities used to run 'premedical programs'. You can believe this or not - I really could care less, and now they don't. What this does is make it more difficult for students who are trying to acquire the necessary science background to do so - degree in hand or not.

It is not as you say, 'easy' to assemble such courses on one's own, much less to schedule these courses yourself into a workable timetable, or to complete them in a reasonable period of time. I do not believe that a bachelor's degree in biochemistry say, (typically used), or (biology) would better prepare students for medicine than a program specifically designed for this purpose.

As I stated, Red Deer College in Alberta is the only college offering premedical studies in Canada that I am aware of. I will not search through reams and reams of texts to confirm for you that Canada has no other offerings in this area. If you want to do that kind of leg work, you do it yourself. Suffice to say, I spent plenty of time researching it already to come up with the one college.

You do the leg work and you'll see what I'm saying. I haven't the time nor inclination to do it for you.

You're both idiots. Hopefully you fit into one of the minority classifications because you're going to need the special priveleging that that entails. I have no problem whatsoever with the majority of a student population being non-white, or women for that matter. What bothers me is when quotas are used to put them there ahead of more qualified individuals.

Xavier University itself claims to support policies of diversity, which likely means they also have an affirmative action policy of their own. Luckily they have a hell of a lot more openings, such that this is of lesser importance to prospective students.

Discrimination is wrong. There is no reverse to it. I suppose I might be inclined to believe in this kind of discrimination like you both if it benefitted me. It may well in fact, as I have native ancestry which is only a processing period away. Then maybe I'll cut in line ahead of you and you can tell me again how fair it is.