Neilc, Teratos...Kudos for keeping the discussion civil as opposed to those obvious peeps who like to hear (read) themselves argue. No one will ever take them seriously, doctors or not.

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Mongo

Be good. If you can't be good, be careful. If you can't be careful...Name it after me.

Oh, spare me the pompous "All I'm trying to do" nonsense. You can't stop showing your intentions even when you're denying them. Look at your first "rebuttal"...tell me what Caribbean school has LCME or any other accrediting agency endorsement? Look up the definition of specious.

I dared you to explain how your list of states differed for any other Caribbean school other than the Big 4 and not only didn't you do it, you continue with your sweeping generalizations. You belittle Spartan as if it's a given that Spartan is well known to be substandard. I wish SJSM was as good as Spartan. The fact that it is one of the favorite punching bags of the pontificating ***** on this web site has obviously influenced you to regurgitate nonsense that you haven't bothered verifying for yourself. If all you can do is parrot then you come ill prepared.

Can you say contemptible? I can and do say it to you. Go back a few months and look at some of your (and others) past comments and lists as to why SJSM should not be anybody's choice. One of the items was no passing USMLE scores. But now that some students have been through the program at SJSM and have passed Step 1 with high scores, that item is left off the list and the next item up is no residencies. When that one falls off the list (as the students progress) you'll be left with "few grads" and "No CA approval". The bottom line is that you are parroting nonsense and haven't bothered to examine the garbage you're spewing. A new school doesn't have anybody in residency is a basis for calling it a bad school? If you want to rebut that by saying the school is more than 5 years old, be honest and tell the whole story...as opposed to your specious lies. Or have you not bothered to learn the whole story and have contented yourself with just parroting garbage?

"Basically, what I'm saying is..." that you don't have a clue or an original thought. You contradict yourself in the same post and why? You painted yourself into a corner with these sweeping generalizations and then you have to extricate yourself by admitting that yes, by going to SJSM you can sit for the USMLE, and yes, you can get ECFMG certification...and yes, you can become licensed (not in just a few states as you would like people to think, but in 45 out the 50 states)...and oh yeah, there may be some good instructors there and ....

I have no interest in defending SJSM. There are legitimate issues with the school and its administration that potential students should be made aware of. But those discussions cannot take place on this forum because of idiots wanting to chime in with pithy comments or lies. Honest discussions cannot take place on this forum because people who wear the mantle of officials of this web site are pontificating for the Big 4 and are exceptionally deragotory about the other schools. I'll hold up Spartan as a glaring example of that. I'll go toe to toe with any one of these twits who want to use information that is 25 years old as their basis for why Spartan is a poor school. That is exactly the kind of garbage these people are forced to use in order to bolster their arguments for why their schools should be preferred by everybody. I got news for you...I attended SJSM with a group of people who chose SJSM over any of the other schools. The only reason we left was the loss of the Key Bank loans. Some have transferred to other Caribbean schools and by golly, some of us have come back to US medical schools...kind of shoots the "last resort" lies all to hell, doesn't it?

I don't like being perceived as a champion for SJSM. But I like lies even less. I've never challenged an honest critique of the school and I've said it again in this thread that there are valid issues to discuss about the school--but nobody seems capable of doing that without regurgitating some fabrication or resorting to ridiculous statements such as "no residencies". Believe me, I'm not the only one who sees through the farce. What bothers me most though is that I have read where one student chose SJSM because he/she read my arguments rallying against these lies and figured the school must be worth going to. That is such a disservice to new students and I blame the construct of this web site and the tolerance (and participation in) the bashing that is done...which is especially egregious when it's done by somebody wearing an "Official" tag.

Are there better schools? Certainly...not even a debatable point. Can SJSM meets the needs of some students...yes it can. Can it be done honorably and with acceptance in the US? Yes it can, despite what the multitude of pontificating jackals might say. There are some fine students still attending the school. There are Canadian students coming down with the new semester (they still have loans available). I know some people who are self-funding their completion of the program. Had the Key loan remained, I would have remained. And I'm nobody's fool. As I've said, I don't like being in the position of having to defend the school against bashing, but I won't stand in the corner wringing my hands saying "What can I do?"

So, do I disagree with you, Neil C? No, I don't disagree that there are better schools that potential students should consider. But yes, I do disagree with you bashing by being specious.

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Life is sexually transmitted.

i still don't see any bashing. i said st james was far from the best. i said there are many other choices better. the reasons have been stated. obviously, you do not disagree with my reasons, you simply don't like me. too bad for me, eh?

i think it is funny that you stick to your statement that i am a liar and basher, yet you still agree with all of my points. sure, st james can meet the BASIC needs of a med student. but, there are far better options. maybe when st james is not new, it can be reconsidered. but, as of now, st james is what it is. still a lesser choice.

thanks for agreeing with me. too bad in your 51 years you haven't learned how to be civil, or how to back down when clearly you misinterpreted someone.

uh, you asked me to give some data as to why st james is inferior to a US school. i gave this, and lots more. when i compared st james to a carib school, i gave other reasons.

we already covered this. i AM comparing st james to the big 4. they are the standard that st james does not meet.


]You belittle Spartan as if it's a given that Spartan is well known to be substandard. I wish SJSM was as good as Spartan. [/quote]

if you wish st james was as good as spartan, a school that has been around 25 years and has LOST doe loans, has grads in a few states, has been denied by CA and has none of the other approval states in the bag...well, i think again that you are making my point that st james has a lot of improving todo.

[quote=jpryor]Go back a few months and look at some of your (and others) past comments and lists as to why SJSM should not be anybody's choice. One of the items was no passing USMLE scores. But now that some students have been through the program at SJSM and have passed Step 1 with high scores, that item is left off the list and the next item up is no residencies. When that one falls off the list (as the students progress) you'll be left with "few grads" and "No CA approval". The bottom line is that you are parroting nonsense and haven't bothered to examine the garbage you're spewing.

actually, that can be a basis for calling it a poor choice. with being new and in residency, there are risks.


really? ok, mr evidence, show me proof? where are these licensed grads? or are you telling me that your perusal of the licensing laws garuantees that there will be no problems in these 45 states?

and you called me a liar!


fantastic. then, all of your nonsense in a post, just to agree with EVERYTHING i have said.

On a rainy saturday I just read the debate between neilc and jpryor. Very interesting. As I was reading it I actually thought by his signature that jpryor was 21 and said to myself he is an excellent writer for that age. But now that I see he is around my age, I understand his issues better. I am surprised that a moderator such as neilc would argue so strongly about St. James when he is correct that there are the majority of the carribean schools, excluding the big 4 are basically all within a standard error of each other. All his posts in this thread could be attributable to many of the other newer carribean medical schools. Only time will tell. I do know that neilc is at a wonderful university in Prague and in a beautiful City. I've given a talk there and it is one of the oldest and best universities in Europe. I have seen colleagues there that do cutting edge research, although they tend to go to clinical trials much earlier than the US FDA would allow. For someone that is a moderator and at a prestigious University it doesn't make sense to me why he has a focus on st. james. But the administration/student issues going on there right now may be acting as a bit of a beacon. I can tell you that many of the newer carribean schools including St. James which use an american syllabus and US clinicals are light years ahead of numerous yes numerous native language medical schools in Asia, and Eastern Europe, Africa and South American that I have visited. I would rather go to any doctor who graduated from a US based curriculum and trained in American Hospitals via the Carribean route than to a majority of third worldish medical school that are in dire needs of supplies, equipment, modern education techniques, etc. from Doctors that trained in their native language and thus are acceptable to all licensing boards. I get to many applications from graduates of these native language schools, which end up getting tossed in the circular file. And I've seen too many large South American medical schools, yes with thousands of first year incoming students entering one class, that can't make it in our system. Lighten up on the Carribean schools, and put your efforts into helping to enrich the learning experience and quality of medical care of the poorer quality native language schools around the world. In the long run, it will help keep world wide diseases like the potential bird flu pandemic, in check. Of interest, From talking to our head of infectious disease at our teaching hospital, and visiting Asia last month, it might be a good idea to keep some tamiflu in reserve for your families. There won't be enough vaccine if cases spread. I also understand the virus is similar to the 1918 influenza virus and continuing to mutate across higher species.

some points...i agree that outside of the big 4, the carib schools are all very similar. that is my point exactly. if you go back and read the original post, the claim is basically that st james is as good as ANY other school, and it is entirely dependant on the individual. that is patently untrue.

second, i am not at all against carib schools. in fact, i have long been a proponent of a student seriously considering any of the big 4. these schools provide an excellent option for learning medicine and coming back to the states. i am just advising folks to excercise extreme caution when going to a new school. there are too many risks, too many variables. the established schools avoid these problems.

about the 3rd worldish comment...well, i am pretty sure you have not been to the teaching facilites in prague. while there are several hospitals in dire need of renovations, these are still no worse than, say, the older VA hospitals i have been in stateside. additionally, some of the facilities (specifically the military hospital) as well as many departments in the older hospitals have been renovated and are as good or better than any hospital stateside. the czech republic is nowhere near a third world country. furthermore, these schools are consistently pouring out current and cutting edge research in collaboration with other large universities worldwide and on there own. from the tone of your post, it seems that you have experience teaching in these areas, yet your information is very obviously outdated and inaccurate. when and where did you work? i would very much like to confirm this...i am sorry to be so blunt, but to make a statement such as "the carib schools such as st james are light years ahead of...." is so ignorant it is amazing. this is a school that has been around a few years, has no ongoing research, has no hospital facilities of its own, is struggling for students, is not approved in any states....basically, it has a profs teaching a few subjects, and farms out the students for clinicals. while there is nothing wrong, or different with doing this (most carib schools are in a similar situation), to claim that this is light years ahead of anything is ridiculous. they do a job. they prepare students for the usmle. they are not pioneers of academia, nor do they intend to be.

anyhow, the point of my posting, once again, is not to "bash" st james. it was merely to point out that there are other far better options. st james is a viable option, certainly. but, it comes with limitations. and, at this point in time, there are many schools that do offer more than st james.

NeilC, perhaps you misread my email. I infact said that Charles University is a wonderful place. When I referred to native language schools I was referring to many of the schools in smaller former soviet controlled countries, many that have ...stan at the end of their names, schools in poorer asian, african, and south american countries. I am very current with ongoing situations, and try to keep abreast of world medical education. You shouldn't be sensitive about where you go. Most of the people on this forum do not understand that many of the schools they are talking about are absolutely prestigious. If Americans are willing to travel and can get an education from schools like University of Sydney and Charles University, these are much more presitigious that than probably 100 of the 125 or so American Medical Schools. And enormously more impressive than any Big 4 Carribean School.

"If Americans are willing to travel and can get an education from schools like University of Sydney and Charles University, these are much more presitigious that than probably 100 of the 125 or so American Medical Schools. And enormously more impressive than any Big 4 Carribean School."


i agree, they have a much longer history. as far as st james, its laughable to compare any new school to the big 4 or even smu but whatever justifies spending the money to this person is fine, it will help them sleep at night. 25 years ago the big 4 were in the same position so its not like they were any better as start ups. the only cure to the growing pains is growing up so instead of a few students here and there singing the praises of the school, give it time, show the number of people passing and getting licensed anything short of that is just people dribbling on about a new school with no trak record, promises, and possibilities.....

i still don't think you can put any carib school with the majority of native language schools. i've talked to people in various med schools in cuba nd south america and they were very well prepared to practice medicine in their countries at schools that have been around over 100 years....of course they will not get trained in th etechno stuff. i've been to universidad san simom in bolivia and the facilities were amazing, i think it was founded in the late 1800's....of course they were learning stuff for there not the usmle but the lectures were interesting....

peace

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OBGYN PGY II
I see light at the end of the tunnel!!!...wait a minute its just another freakin tunnel!

no problem. perhaps i did misread you. i don't consider myself sensitive about my school at all. from how i read the post, it seemed that you claimed st james was light years ahead of schools in this region, and i dispute that strongly. i don't think there are many schools in the world that are "light years' ahead of the better schools in this region. as far as asia, south america, etc...i will have to defer to your greater knowledge, as i have zero experience. my school was a great fit for me, but it comes with a whole host of postive features as well as negatives, so it is not a great fit for everyone.


anyhow, i think this topic has been beat to death. if people read the posts carefully, i think they can tell that i am not anti-st james, per se, just pro-better options, or at least that i am for people undrestanding what they are getting into

I am disappointed at the level of this discussion.

When everyone looks back, they will fully realize that the medical school does not! make the doctor. Most everyone from U.S. graduates to FMG/IMG's including Carribbean grads will complete residency training in the United States or Canada.

It is at this level that post-graduate *medical* training begins. When it comes to lawsuits and evaluation of the merit of ones training, the residency program is the central institution that validates or invalidates the strength of ones' training and candidacy to be a practicing physician.

U.S and Canadian medical school are not without reasonable doubt when it comes to selection. Politics, family connections, financial resources, and other factors play heavily into medical school admissions. Let's face reality! Discrimination outside of academic merit plays a heavy part in selection.

Given this near fact, foreign schools can be justified, as they provide opportunity for an individual to reach a stage to be readied for residency. Indeed, this is why the common focal point for all medical programs is U.S./Canadian internships/residencies. No body really from this point forward questions the integrity, merit, or internal guts of the physician's medical school. Instead, questions of post-grad training come into play. It is at the post-grad level where one begins to make independent decisions but under the supervision of a practicing attending physician. This is the apprenticeship process for physicians. This is what matters!

If school X had better facilities, a longer history, blah blah blah....than school Y, it does not inherently follow that a graduate of school X will be automatically better than a graduate of school Y. In fact, the standardization can be proven and equalized by tests of performance, one of which is the USMLE. Independent study is necessary to perform well on these standardized tests. The fact that school X has better blah blah blah than school Y is immaterial.

Not all graduates of school X have the individual drive, IQ, and strength to function independently, which is a necessary quality to have at the post grad level. This applies equally and is as variable as the student themselves.

Therefore, like others who know who they are, as a SJSM graduate, I'll take on anyone and prove any one that I am as good or better than a graduate of any other school. Don't be so naive. Stop complaining.

Everyone deserves an equal opportunity. You don't know everyone's circumstances. Shut the ----- up. Stop ruining it for others because of your pity. It simply shows your immaturity and, perhaps, unsuitability to be talking about this subject. Medicine is hard enough.

So what if SJSM is just getting started. Just like any child, give it a break. if you don't like it and are inherently a pejorative misanthrope projecting internal feelings, go somewhere else. Otherwise you are just damaging your own credibility and validating why things went wrong with you at SJSM or elsewhere or will eventually. This does nothing but strengthen SJSM.

Further, let SJSM graduate a few of its students. I'll be happy to challenge you and take you down on any level of merit in medicine. I'll be happy to show you that as an SJSM graduate, I am as good as a non-SJSM grad. Bring it on!