St James has been operating for 5 years (2000 - 2005)

and to date they have had only 2 graduates who have obtained a residency in the U.S.

any explanation for this?

I have been told that since 2000, hundreds of students have attended St James, on average they take in 50 per semester,

so that's about 150 per year, so in five years thats about 750 students they have accepted!

and so far only TWO students have obtained a residency in the U.S.

what is the reason?

(the school started off taking in transfer students who had already completed their basic sciences elsewhere, so they have had graduates since 2001! yet only 2 grads have obtained a residency)

what good is a diploma from St James, if you can't get a residency?

It is just the start of the 5th year. they have not completed 5 years yet.
This is Feb 2005, How can you say 2000-2005 is five years.Can you justify?And how do you know that they have only 2 students in residency.


Just a thought...................!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ahsan

well, the school would be in its 5th year now. and, the school rep on the forum was the one who stated that there are only 2 folks in residency.

given that the school was opened in 2000, you would assume that there would be more than 2 folks in residency. they likely accepted transfers that could have begun residency in 2002 and/or, and they would have had the charter class starting residency in 2004...so, unless the charter class only had 2 folks graduate, that is a fairly alarming statistic.

either folks failed the usmle, or did not finish at st james, or simply did not get a residency spot (either from not applying or not being matched/scrambled). another option is that they simply only graduated two folks in the charter class.

In a conversation related to the MedAchiever loan fiasco and the school's application for the TERI loan, Dr. **** stated there are 87 people who have completed the Basic Science program at St. James. At the time, I didn't ask for any other details and any else I can add is based on conversations with other students. Evidently, as best I can tell, there are 11 students in resdiencies in the Chicago area that are remaining in contact with current students. I know there are at least a couple in the Atlanta area, too. By no means am I implying that is the total number of people in residencies, but these are some "better" numbers for those that are interested. As for the remainder of the people who have left this island, I'd have to join the group of speculators and guess what they're up to. Certainly, some are actively reviewing for the USMLE. Based on themany comments I have heard here, I would not be surprised if a large number of them have ceased their pursuit of a doctorate. That is based on the comments that many were here just to appease their parents' desire for a their child to be a doctor, lawyer or engineer. We have several students in the program right now who are in that circumstance.

To correct one misunderstanding, the school has not averaged 50 students per semester. I'm not the official scorekeeper, but based on the photos of the "grads" I'd say that there is probably an average of 12 people per class finishing the program. From what I've heard, there wasn't a large number lost out of any class until last semester when Xavier offered SJSM students an economic incentive to transfer.

In addition, the first students who came to SJSM as pre-meds have now entered the first semester of Basic Science. While I would not advocate anybody coming to an offshore school to do their pre-med courses, I do have to admit that this group of students appear to be well educated. My opinion is that they are a group of higher-than-usual caliber of students versus patting the school on the back. I heard they had a reasonable attrition rate, but perhaps one of them should address those kind of issues.

Hope this helps answer some of the questions and doesn't raise too many more! I really don't come to this forum very often anymore (I'm playing hooky this morning) so don't expect me to respond to any questions. I still hear from many of the students who actively read this forum, so I'm certain some of them will take up any issues that might arise from this post.

By the way, I love this island, I like the school and I'm intimidated enough by the material to say that I do plan on doing a review prior to taking the USMLE. I won't say I've had the greatest instructors in all courses (I think everybody hates the same guy here), but I have had some pretty good instructors overall. My advice to any prospective student or parent is to do some good research, starting with the Department of Education. The admonishments from Picard about a pending change for Caribbean medical schools are legitimate and something all current students should keep an eye on.

This is a direct quote from SJSM official, and consistant with the information contained in a letter from Dr. Pandit (which I have a copy of from a California internist through mutual friends).

I think jpryor may have misspoke in this post. I think he meant to say that these are the students currently in clinical rotations, in their 3rd and 4th year of medical school at SJSM. Residencies are what you do after graduation, after you receive your MD degree.

From official sources, it appears that there are currently 10 graduates who have received their MD degrees from SJSM. Out of these 10, only 2 are currrently in the US doing residency, one in UK (which would be interesting to know more details -- did the graduate pass the PLAB? And is the graduate currently a JHO (Junior House Officer)? Or is the graduate merely in an observership of some sort? It would also be interesting to know why there are 5 graduates currently in the match process "out of season." By that, I mean, if these graduates received their MD degree back in June of 2004, they should have been in the 2004 Match. Why are they sitting out a year? And those in "Research" positions -- what residency are they trying to achieve? People don't go into foreign medical schools for a career in research. The odds are, these graduates in "research" positions are trying to get residency spots (whether or not they have officially applied for residency before) -- and for whatever reason, have not been successful. It would be interesting to know if they are aiming for very competitive residencies or just did not have the "stats" to match.

Again, I am not asking for personal contact informations on these graduates. We don't even need to know their names. And this is not meant to be "bashing" SJSM. Yes, every school has it's own "growing pains." But honesty and candor is the way from school administration goes a long way in helping it's students... I would urge SJSM students to ask their administration about these graduates, so that their stories/path can help students who are currently in school. Perhaps there are issues that can be addressed, perhaps there are things that needs to be avoided (like less-than-green rotations... etc). I would urge SJSM students to find our for their own sake, and share with potential students so that they can make an informed choice.

The next 5 years will be very interesting for offshore foreign grads. Look at the media today -- it's full of stories of "medical mistakes," " incompetent doctors," and how doctors kill more people than XYZ. This translates to more regulations, tighter scrunities from medical education to board certification. The buzz word nowadays is "accreditation." Residency programs are getting tighter scrutiny from RRC/ACGME. I bet 5 years ago, Yale didn't think it was possible their surgery residency program would be decertified. I bet your 5 years ago, UCLA-Drew didn't think they would be losing both their Surgery and Medicine residency programs. Down the line is medical school education. We have already seen tighter scrutinies on offshore schools as more states have adopted the "California standard" in the past few years. Heck, Ross is now sending more graduates into residencies than any other schools, US or foreign. Everyone is talking how there is now a medical school on every Caribbean island targeting Americans, and that these schools need to be scrutinzed. FSMB is now coming out with positional statements addressing the need for national accreditation standards for offshore schools with LCME standards, with California approval list being the current buzz word. And if we take a honest look at offshore schools, we need to honestly realize that most offshore schools are far from meeting LCME-style accreditation. Just pick up papers like AMA News, ACP news... etc Issues like this are discussed on every issue... and most of the meetings I've been to.

Now, some say, these are just silly domesday scares, and that things won't change that quickly. We have time.... Well, we may not. Licensure issues/laws can change overnight. Look at TX. Look at states that have adopted CA lists overnight. On the lesser scale, IMG licensure eligiblity have changed in many states in just the past few years... When I was applying for licensure, most states will license IMG's with only 2 years of residency training. A few will even license IMG's after only internship year. Now, a few years later, more and more states now require 3 years of residency for IMG"s before licensure. Some may say "that's only one year, big deal." Well, it's a VERY BIG DEAL that affects IMG's tremendously. Now, we have IMG's who are finishing residnecies without a license, and cannot even APPLY until they finish their residency. What does this mean? They have to sit out 6 months or more waiting for their license before any employers will look at them. And the employment process can take several months in and of itself (hospital privilege/credential process can take several months). This is why most residents start looking for jobs during the beginning of their final year of residency. So, in states where IMG's have to have 3 years of residency before licensure, that IMG is looking at potentially 9 months without a paycheck AFTER residency... and I don't know about you, my student loan repayment started much sooner than 9 months after residency... and I have rent, car payments, utility bills... I couldn't have waited for 9 months without a job after residency. All these happened in the past few years. Don't think time is on your side.

The next 5 years are going to be interesting. Many schools may find themselves in more trouble then they think. More importantly, this is the time frame when current and potential students will be seeking licensure... You may not think it's a big deal sitting in basic science classes now far away from home... it is.

Best wishes,

P

__________________
Jean Luc Picard
Academic Hospitalist/Assist. Professor of Medicine, Star Fleet Medical, Earth, United Federation of Planets
Borg-Certified... Resistance is Futile.

In Glock, We Trust... Everyone Else... Keep Your Hands Where I Can See Them.

http://www.odmp.org/search.php?searc...=2001&cause=27
http://www.nypdangels.com/wtc.htm
http://www.hampsteadnh.us/police/A%2...ica%20Died.htm
http://longmontpolice.com/MEMORIAM.HTM

for me personally, i would want to do a full 3 year residency in IM even if my state doesnt require it. this is because that is the only way to be board eligible to take the exam. nowadays being board certified is almost as important as having the liscense itself.

i do support having a central accredidation committe in the states for the carib schools. this would take away the confusing laws found within each state. this also would take away some (not all) of the bias against the future accredited schools in the carib by the central committe.

__________________
Dr. Scott
Internal Medicine
PGY-1

AUC Forum Moderator

Slapping my forehead here--yes, I did mean to write clinicals and not rotations.

Ok, so you've told us about the problems Picard, but what should one do about them?

__________________
Saba Forum Moderator
Saba University School of Medicine, MSIV
Interests: Pediatrics, Psychiatry

As IMG's, you need to think of residnecy/board certification and licensure as two completely separate issues. Yes, completing residency and become board certified (NOT just board eligible) is extremely important nowadays if you want any sort of decent job. For US grads where licensure is a given without worries, board certification is actually MORE important than licensure because for them, licensure is almost automatic once they complete their internship year in most states. By the time most US grads reach their PGY-3 year, they already have their unrestricted permenent medical license. In the past (and in programs that are predominately USMG's now), most programs had/have policies requiring their PGY-2 residents to obtain unrestricted permenent medical licensure as a condition for promotion into PGY-3 year. And for those in 3-year residency programs like IM/FP/Peds, residents start looking for jobs in the beginning of their PGY-3 year because the process takes time. And most employers will not look at applicants who do not currently have a medical license because credentially process cannot begin without license and DEA numbers in most hospitals and insurance carriers. This is why it's very advantageous to have an unrestricted/permanent medical license during the final year of your residency training.

Problems for IMG now is that most states won't even let IMG's apply for licensure until they have completed their PGY-3 year. For those in IM/FP/Peds, that means these IMG's are finishing their residency without a medical license. In the past, you couldn't even sit for some board certification exams without having at least one license from any jurisdiction. That's not the case anymore, I think. But the problem for IMG's in IM/FP/Peds remain that they will be sitting out for many months, perhaps up to a year, after residency waiting for licensure and then employment process after licensure. All these time without a paycheck as a physician. It may not be a big deal to some of the true IMG"s from other countries... but for Americans who went to offshore schools and have incurred a sizable student loan that will enter repayment within a few months of finishing residency, not having an attending physician level paycheck for 6 to 9 months or more after residency IS a big deal, and severely limits the options avaiable for IMG's. I am fortunate that when I was applying for licensure, most states will license IMG's after only 2 years of residency. I received my license during my PGY-3 year, and was able to find a job and start working the day after I finished residency... Now, between two sets of med school student loan repayments from both me and my wife, rent/morgage to come, car payments... we are just getting by with my salary as an attending physician. We won't have any significant "discretionary income" until my wife finishes residency... It's not a simple road to travel when you choose to be an IMG... you need to do it with your eyes open and be aware of all the issues that are coming up fast and furious.

P

__________________
Jean Luc Picard
Academic Hospitalist/Assist. Professor of Medicine, Star Fleet Medical, Earth, United Federation of Planets
Borg-Certified... Resistance is Futile.

In Glock, We Trust... Everyone Else... Keep Your Hands Where I Can See Them.

http://www.odmp.org/search.php?searc...=2001&cause=27
http://www.nypdangels.com/wtc.htm
http://www.hampsteadnh.us/police/A%2...ica%20Died.htm
http://longmontpolice.com/MEMORIAM.HTM

Picard is correct.

His posts outline very important issues.

St James is one of many new schools in the Caribbean.

The rate at which these offshore schools keep propping up is alarming.

These schools accept many students (hundreds).

But the number of residency positions in the U.S. does not increase at that same rate. In about 3 or 4 years the number of Caribbean grads will far outnumber the number of available residency positions in the U.S. for IMG's.

Picard is very right when he says "The next 5 years are going to be interesting."

Soon (probably already has) there will be a Caribbean medical graduate surplus.

I personally predict a financial disaster for Americans and Canadians students going down to these 'fly by night' new caribbean schools.

Like Picard, my post is not in any way intended to bash. Gosh there is enough of that already.

Picard's post also outlines: "more regulations, tighter scrunities from medical education to board certification"

This is very true. For example, Oklahoma use to be a pretty easy state for licensure. BUT as of 2004 they have issued this statement:

"Effective January 1, 2004, any applicant that graduated from a foreign medical school after July 1, 2003 and completed clerkships in the United States, those clerkships must have been done in hospitals, schools or facilities that are accredited by the appropriate accrediting body such as the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education."

www.okmedicalboard.org

These stricter medical licensing requirements is a growing trend in America.

Picard's post is awesome.

He also outlines LCME approval.

For those that don't know. The L.C.M.E. (http://www.lcme.org/) is THE official accrediting authority for medical education programs leading to the M.D. degree in U.S. and Canadian medical schools.

Currently NO medical school in the Caribbean is LCME approved. None of them. Not St George, NOT AUC, NOT ROSS, NONE of them!

Hard to believe! Isn't it??

Also, many residency programs are saying they only want graduates from LCME approved schools.

Also, LOAN programs are slowly starting to only give loans to LCME approved schools. Was it KEY Bank that recently did this?

So St James is not really at the heart of our posts.

These issues apply to ALL Caribbean med schools and IN PARTICULAR the NEWEST schools, that have just opened up in the past few years and have not shown a real record of placing graduates into residency.

One FINAL question: Does any one know, of all the students that get accepted into and attend St James, what percentage pass all the USMLE's and graduate?

Because if the school started in 2000, and each semester say they take in only 20 students, over 5 years that is about 300 students, and to this day has had only 10 graduates that's 10/300 = 3 %.

See, St James has been taking in TRANSFER students from day one. These students have completed their basic sciences elsewhere and are only a few clinical rotations away from graduating.

A personally recommend transferring out of St James to a more established school. But St James currently charges a $4000 transfer fee! Why? Is it because everyone is leaving?