Instructive incident from the school forum

[dt]

Instructive entry from the school forum and place here for reference:

Do you think it's fair ?

SJOnline: Hello. How can I help you?
Student: When i was filling my "absence" form, I said i was gonna be back in 4 months
Student: however I have not passed my USMLE yet and I'd like to extend that time and study for the exam
Student: I was not aware of the rule about filling out that form 4 weeks in advance.
SJOnline: You are a current student at SJSM?
Student: So I'm wondering, why do I have to pay my tuition if I’m not gonna be in rotations ...
Student: yes I am
SJOnline: I just check on the policy.
SJOnline: We will extend your leave, but you are still responsible for paying tuition.
Student: but why if I'm not at school
SJOnline: Because you are still considered our student.
Student: I understand if you're asking for some deposit so you're sure I'm still your student
Student: but why do I have to pay full tuition if I'm not using it ??
SJOnline: That is not how it works. Tuition is due every semester for as long as you a student of SJSM.
Student: student means going to school right ?
Student: if somebody's not attending it at the moment, why would they be responsible for paying the full amount ?
Student: for example - $2700 to the 'hospital' that I'm not even going to ...
SJOnline: You will not pay more than the ten semesters of the program, regardless of how long it actually takes you to complete the program.
Student: exactly, so I can pay it when I use it ... since I'm gonna pay you 10 semesters anyway
SJOnline: If you are inactive for 8 months, you automatically are in an "un-enrolled" status.
Student: meaning ...?
SJOnline: Any financial aid that you might have from any lender will become due because your status is not active.
Student: when I was filling out that 'leave of absence' form nobody told me the rules, they said "put 4 months not and if it's not enough you can always fill out another one"
Student: don't you think your rules are vague and not a single student knows about them until they have some kind of problem
SJOnline: Obviously, you did not ask the right person, because those are not the rules.
Student: that's when they realize that St James does have rules, or they make them up as they go along
Student: I asked the Dean, who else should I ask ? a librarian or Della maybe ?
SJOnline: If you contact the office that makes the rules, meaning this office, one of our staff will always give you the correct information.
SJOnline: Your comments seem to be made because you did not receive the response you desire.
Student: Don’t you think that all employee of the school should be informed of all your rules ?
Student: Mm, this is not the first time that something like this is happening
SJOnline: This is not an argument. I have given you the rules as they are written.
Student: written where ?
Student: have we ever got those? Do you have them on the internet ?
Student: Where are those rules ???
SJOnline: If you have any further questions pleaswe call Sh.
Student: I mean, rules are also to have profs at school
Student: not to wait 2 months for them and still pay full tuition, but obviously that’s not what the school is focusing on. It’s all about collecting the tuition.
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[OLDPRO]

Okay lets be fair with this, something I see little of sometimes on Value MD.

4 semesters you pay and attend, No 5th at this time so you take a semester off to attend Kaplan and pass the USLME step 1. The school has stated it will cost the student nothing, $0, but you must pay for the 1st semster of 6 semsters of clinicals as a deposit. Hmm thats 4+6=10 no you are paying $0 for the time off to study and pass the USLME. Hmm seems okay to just about everyone at the school right now except 2 who are worried the school may make money off putting the semster's deposit in the bank for 3 months, Hmm what the interest rate? Lets say 3% a month okay
8000 (rounded) so even with interest compounded that's a wopping $60 for the 3 months maybe. Hmm yea a gold mine there. Oh And I read DT's post at the school site and it was posted that other schools have a 5th semester before clinicals you pay for, Right it costs money and they prep you for the USLME, well sort of, most take Kaplan after that and spend additional $$, Hmm St. James cost $0 and instead of providing Kaplan books and taped Kaplan lecture lets and encourages it's students to take the live course.

Oh and this policy was disscussed by the school with the students, I was there. Some people just never stop complaining, in order to take Step 1 you must be a current student at the school and since this is after 4th semester and white coat and you are on leave to do this the school has this policy so the intentions are clear that you are a student and will continue to attend the school for clinicals. This is how it was explained.

[dt]

Let's see...

St. James: 4 semesters of basic science + 6 semesters of clinical
Some other schools: 5 semesters of basic science + 5 semesters of clinicals. The difference it seems to me is that the 5th semester is used to prepare for the board. And only have to pay for FIVE semesters clinical.


It looks to me that St. James is asking that you pay for the 5th semester anyways even when the student is on a leave of absence. It makes no sense to pay tuition when on a leave of absence and not even attending school.

I can understand why St. James is doing this -- but it ranks right there with the $4000 fee to transfer to another school.

[OLDPRO]

Originally Posted by dt

Let's see...

St. James: 4 semesters of basic science + 6 semesters of clinical
Some other schools: 5 semesters of basic science + 5 semesters of clinicals. The difference it seems to me is that the 5th semester is used to prepare for the board. And only have to pay for FIVE semesters clinical.


It looks to me that St. James is asking that you pay for the 5th semester anyways even when the student is on a leave of absence. It makes no sense to pay tuition when on a leave of absence and not even attending school.

I can understand why St. James is doing this -- but it ranks right there with the $4000 fee to transfer to another school.

Then Don't go to the school, You have it wrong really, 5th semster in other schools is not clinical Science, the 5th semester at St. James right now is clinical Science, are you sure about the other schools? the way St. James has it calculated is two years of clinicals. Are you saying at other medical schools Clinical sci is only 1.5 years? The transfer fee is explained before you pay the first fee, it is the signed agreement ( you do not have to sign and attend at this point). Please explain cause I really want to understand.

If the school is ripping me off please tell me, but I looked at it and do not see a problem.

And how can you sit for the USLME if you left the school? You have to be a current student per my understanding since you have not graduated yet?

[OLDPRO]

Also to make it clear what I understand from the SJM web site:

Basic Science Curriculum

Semester 1: Histology (10 credits) Gross Anatomy & Embryology (12 credits) Medical & Legal Ethics (4 credits)

Semester 2: Physiology (12 credits) & Biochemistry (10 credits) Neurosciences (8 credits) Genetics (4 credits)

Semester 3: Pathology I (10 credits) Microbiology (10 credits) Pharmacology (10 credits) Medical Psychology (4 credits)

Semester 4: Pathology II (10 credits), Epidemiology (4 Credits), Physical Diagnosis & Clinical Medicine (9 credits).

Early hands-on experience in the hospital, supplements the basic science training in Bonaire.

Clinical Science Curriculum

Medicine12 weeks Surgery12 weeks Obstetrics/Gyn.06 weeks Family Practice06 weeks Pediatrics06 weeks Psychiatry06 weeks Total :48 weeks


The remaining 48 weeks are spent in elective rotations, which must include twelve weeks of training in general medicine or its subspecialties and another twelve weeks in surgery or its subspecialties. Acceptable areas of subspecialties are:


Elective Medicine

Cardiology
Psychiatry
Neurology
Urology Dermatology
Gastroenterology
Pulmonology
Oncology
Hematology
Infectious Diseases
Emergency Medicine
Radiology

Elective Surgery

Ophthalmology
Ear Nose and throat
Orthopedics
Neurosurgery
Thoracic surgery
Vascular surgery
Plastic surgery
Urosurgery

So is this different? Is there more clinical time than needed? I really don't understand, You go 4 semesters then off a semester and pay for the first clinical science semester as a deposit, then attend clinical sciences and do not pay for that first semester since you did already? Where's the rip off? I really do not see it? But if it's here please show me.

[Gavanshir]

Seems fair to me; rules are rules. That student simply did not seem to know how to talk to administrative people.

[dt]

Originally Posted by OLDPRO

Then Don't go to the school, You have it wrong really, 5th semster in other schools is not clinical Science, the 5th semester at St. James right now is clinical Science, are you sure about the other schools? the way St. James has it calculated is two years of clinicals. Are you saying at other medical schools Clinical sci is only 1.5 years? The transfer fee is explained before you pay the first fee, it is the signed agreement ( you do not have to sign and attend at this point). Please explain cause I really want to understand.

If the school is ripping me off please tell me, but I looked at it and do not see a problem.

And how can you sit for the USLME if you left the school? You have to be a current student per my understanding since you have not graduated yet?

All I am saying is this:

For example, SMU, MUA-Nevis, AUA, Saba are 10 semesters in length: 5 basic sciences + 5 clinicals

To me, these schools use the 5th semester as a way for the boards and preparation for clinicals.

St. James does not have this transitional semester. Instead St. James has longer clinicals -- 6 semesters.


So, if a student wants some time off to study for USMLE, and they ask for a leave of absence, why should they have to pay for the 6th semester?

Say, if you want to take a semester break between 2nd and 3rd semester, and ask for a leave of absence, do you have to pay for the 3rd semester before the school would grant you the leave?

What happens if you want to quit med school after the 2nd semester, does the school require you to pay for the 3rd semester?

What's the difference in quitting and reapplying later to resume med school, and taking a leave of absence?

[dt]

Originally Posted by Gavanshir

Seems fair to me; rules are rules. That student simply did not seem to know how to talk to administrative people.

I dont know what their student handbook or written school policies are, but if it is written down and given to the students, and if they still want to go to the school, then if they sign up, they are in for an expensive lesson.

But I remember the $4000 surprise charge to the students when they transfered to Xavier.

And I dont think its a matter of how to talk to the admin. I think the school is worried about losing students (ie, money). It is a business foremost after all.

[OLDPRO]

Originally Posted by dt

I dont know what their student handbook or written school policies are, but if it is written down and given to the students, and if they still want to go to the school, then if they sign up, they are in for an expensive lesson.

But I remember the $4000 surprise charge to the students when they transfered to Xavier.

And I dont think its a matter of how to talk to the admin. I think the school is worried about losing students (ie, money). It is a business foremost after all.

Well one last thing to say is that it only costs 4200 a semester to go there for Basic, plus 2000 for an administrative fee so, 18,800 for 4 semesters of basic. Most the other schools are around 6,000 to 7,000 a semester so thats 30,000 to 35,000 5 semsters seems to me they are telling the truth they are one of the cheapest. Even if you add in the 4000 cause you want to transfer during Basic it's 22,000 for all 4. I don't know if the 4000 was a surprize or not, if it was in the acceptance package before they should have read it, if not then it was wrong.

As far as paying for the next semester, yes I think most of the schools will not let you take a leave and hold your seat unless you pay some kinda deposit. But I do not know all the policies out there. The semester off is not mandatory but I would not take the USLME without preparing for it, I have seen numerous complaints on how 5th semester does not prepare you well for the USLME and I for one really like the current policy and do not want a ** semester so I can waste time, I want that time to study and Pass the USLME.

[dt]

I think being cheap does not excuse it. (You know, All Saints has lower tuition, right?)

I dont see the requirement to pay the next semester tuition when on a leave of absence at North American universities (at least not the ones I am familiar with).

But St. James policy make sense to me if I take into consideration that they want to hold onto their students. It just leads me to think that they cant hold onto their students through the quality of their education, the service they provide, and not enough transfer students coming in to fill the empty seats left by students leaving. Or, maybe the owner is just greedy and money is very important to him.

It just gives me that impression of desperation on the part of the school.

In the end, if you are comfortable with it, okay.