Thread: INTO St George's, University of London (UK)- Courses for Int'l Students

Hi-

St George's, University of London in partnership with INTO University Partnerships is offering degree programs in International Medicine (Bsc/MBBS- 6 years), International Graduate Medicine (MBBS- 4 years) and in Biomedical Sciences (BSc Hons) that are exclusively for international students. This means that there are programs with spaces for students who are not UK or EU citizens to study in London at the St George's, University of London campus with is co-located with St George's Hospital.

The International Graduate and International Medicine courses are beneficial to students who wish to be exposed to both the UK and US medical systems as two years of US clinical experience is built into the curriculum.

Staff from INTO St George's, University of London are currently holding seminars and attending student fairs across the US, Canada and internationally. Check out INTO SGUL : INTO UK to learn about the upcoming events as well as the available course options.

If you have any questions about these programs please feel free to reach out to an INTO staff member by emailing: namerica(at)sgul.ac.uk or you can submit an inquiry through our website at INTO SGUL : INTO UK.

Best Regards,

Shannon Smith
INTO St George's, University of London

Shannon,

I have been thinking.

If you look at the foreign schools that do more than 12 weeks of clinical experience outside of the country where there school is and have California and NY approval there are two common factors. One, students have the opportunity to participate in all ACGME approved clinical rotations &/or two, the schools require at least a year's worth of core clinical rotations be conducted in the medical school's country.

Since in it's current for INTO SGUL stands almost no chance at getting California & New York medical board approval in it's current form (with the non-ACGME clinical rotations) and without those two approvals you lose about 30% of the US's residency programs as Targaryen pointed out "Alaska, Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Kansas, Idaho, New Mexico, Oregon, Tennessee, and Vermont" all use the CA medical board's list of approved schools. Do you think you could pitch an idea to SGUL?

The idea:

If SGUL cannot get 50 state approval by year 3 in the 4 year program (or year 5 in the 6 year program) then students will be given the option to remain in the UK with the remaining UK SGUL students.

or

Perhaps SGUL creates some incentive for say the top 5 students in the INTO SGUL cohort in which they get the option to stay in the UK for the final two years of clinicals and therefore avoid the licensing problems that the other students are going to face.

The program is expensive. I think SGUL should be flexible and work towards providing students with a degree that is well-recognized globally. And since INTO SGUL is specially targeting Americans & Canadians (evidenced by them having a North American recruiting officer, Shannon) they should at the very least guarantee 50 state recognition of the degree and recognition of the degree in all Canadian provinces.

That would be fair if you asked me.

Hi Cpt,

Thank you for this constructive comment! Our goal at INTO SGUL is to ultimately have approval in all 50 states for students in our program and we'll definitely be working on getting there. Some great points have been raised as to items we need to look into so that students from North America (and also around the world) will feel like this program will really be providing them with the best in UK and US educational and clinical experiences.

I'll definitely be posting more information as it comes in in regards to what we're working on for this.

Best Regards,

Shannon

Originally Posted by Cpt

The majority of students in the Irish medical schools are very intelligent. It is harder to get into Irish medical schools than it is low-tier MD schools in the US, and Canadian students with 3.8 GPAs and 33 MCAT scores often can't find a place in Canada so they go to Ireland instead. That being said, every student at an Irish school is US MD caliber.

That is why the match rate is on par with US MD graduates.

The 50% IMG match rate comes from students who go to bad Caribbean schools and don't match, and there are A LOT of them.

You'll find that most Americans & Canadians studying in Australia, Ireland, and Europe all do very well matching. It's the one coming from the bad Caribbean schools (the ones without non-ACGME approved US clinical rotations, see how nicely that tied in?) that really drag that number down to 50%.

that is pure crap...any US citizen looking to practice in the US that can get into a US school..is going to be in a US school...the Irish schools fill the same role as a caribbean or any other off shore school...a 2nd chance for a student that couldn't get into their own domiciled school...don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise...and a US citizen that decided to go to a foreign school INSTEAD of a US (even a mid to low tier) MD program is an idiot and it serves them right to to have to endure the difficulties of being an FMG...because that is what they are...and again you throw out these numbers without ANY PROOF...I can show you the match lists for sgu (and ours has our names on it...easy enough to check up on) as well as those for many of the other caribbean schools...while the match rate is not spectacular, as it was stated...is around 80% when all is said and done for the 4 caribbean schools that make up the majority of the caribbean grads (those others really don't account for a huge number)...most of the 50% unmatched are VISA requiring applicants...most caribbean students are US citizens and require no VISA.

and those same canadians show up in the caribbean as well...it may make more sense for a canadian to attend an Irish school since its a commonwealth country, but for a US citizen its probably no different.

show me a link to a match list for the irish schools or a website where the school shows its match rate for US and canadian students....they don't have it i bet or otherwise you would have posted it...

from your posting history you have either just started med school or haven't even done so yet...(though it doesn't seem to be that you are actually at an Irish schools so weird that you defend them so much) if your research somehow led you to believe that a foreign school, no matter how good is AS good as a US MD program in the eyes of US PDs, it was very flawed...all i can say is good luck to you in 2016...you're gonna need it.

Originally Posted by rokshana

...all i can say is good luck to you in 2016...you're gonna need it.

Ain't THAT the truth.

Originally Posted by rokshana

that is pure crap...any US citizen looking to practice in the US that can get into a US school..is going to be in a US school...the Irish schools fill the same role as a caribbean or any other off shore school...a 2nd chance for a student that couldn't get into their own domiciled school...don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise...and a US citizen that decided to go to a foreign school INSTEAD of a US (even a mid to low tier) MD program is an idiot and it serves them right to to have to endure the difficulties of being an FMG...because that is what they are...and again you throw out these numbers without ANY PROOF...I can show you the match lists for sgu (and ours has our names on it...easy enough to check up on) as well as those for many of the other caribbean schools...while the match rate is not spectacular, as it was stated...is around 80% when all is said and done for the 4 caribbean schools that make up the majority of the caribbean grads (those others really don't account for a huge number)...most of the 50% unmatched are VISA requiring applicants...most caribbean students are US citizens and require no VISA.

and those same canadians show up in the caribbean as well...it may make more sense for a canadian to attend an Irish school since its a commonwealth country, but for a US citizen its probably no different.

show me a link to a match list for the irish schools or a website where the school shows its match rate for US and canadian students....they don't have it i bet or otherwise you would have posted it...

from your posting history you have either just started med school or haven't even done so yet...(though it doesn't seem to be that you are actually at an Irish schools so weird that you defend them so much) if your research somehow led you to believe that a foreign school, no matter how good is AS good as a US MD program in the eyes of US PDs, it was very flawed...all i can say is good luck to you in 2016...you're gonna need it.

In Cbt's defense, I have looked into the Irish schools and nearly all of their graduates seem to match (I've got in contact with a few students from RCSI, UCD, and UCC). There are maybe one or two who don't match each year, but its usually because of painfully low board scores or the students applying strictly for the competitive specialties.

Believe it or not some people choose to go to an international medical school. It isn't US MD trumps all. Personally, I would rather spend 4 years in Dublin, Ireland than 4 years in Eastern Virginia. You've got to consider all the factors when choosing a medical school not just who is granting the degree.

The people who need visas are considered FMGs and their match rate is 40% (FMG = non-US citizen international medical graduate). IMG = US citizen international medical graduate and their match rate is 50%, but there must be 20-50 bad Caribbean schools out there, if not more. There are plenty that will accept students without an MCAT! Do you think students from those schools are going to match? Because I don't. So of the quality graduates coming out of the Big 4 Caribbean schools you've got massive numbers coming out of these bad schools bringing down match numbers.

Also, because Irish medical schools are so competitive the North Americans in the classes there are almost all Canadians. Each year only has 1-5 Americans in the class, if any. If you don't know anything about the situation in Canada their medical schools get about 15,000 applicants for 1,000 slots. About 2,000 - 3,000 of those applicants have numbers that are worthy of mid-tier US MD schools.

Oh and Ireland isn't in the Commonwealth, slickwatts.

I like Cpt's idea of giving INTO students the opportunity (at least some of them) to remain in London for the entire program.

Perhaps London spots can be awarded based on class rank or something like that.

The licensing issues that come with a split program (half in one country half in another) are a concern but they won't be an issue for students who do the whole program in London.

Originally Posted by Targaryen

In Cbt's defense, I have looked into the Irish schools and nearly all of their graduates seem to match (I've got in contact with a few students from RCSI, UCD, and UCC). There are maybe one or two who don't match each year, but its usually because of painfully low board scores or the students applying strictly for the competitive specialties.

Believe it or not some people choose to go to an international medical school. It isn't US MD trumps all. Personally, I would rather spend 4 years in Dublin, Ireland than 4 years in Eastern Virginia. You've got to consider all the factors when choosing a medical school not just who is granting the degree.

The people who need visas are considered FMGs and their match rate is 40% (FMG = non-US citizen international medical graduate). IMG = US citizen international medical graduate and their match rate is 50%, but there must be 20-50 bad Caribbean schools out there, if not more. There are plenty that will accept students without an MCAT! Do you think students from those schools are going to match? Because I don't. So of the quality graduates coming out of the Big 4 Caribbean schools you've got massive numbers coming out of these bad schools bringing down match numbers.

Also, because Irish medical schools are so competitive the North Americans in the classes there are almost all Canadians. Each year only has 1-5 Americans in the class, if any. If you don't know anything about the situation in Canada their medical schools get about 15,000 applicants for 1,000 slots. About 2,000 - 3,000 of those applicants have numbers that are worthy of mid-tier US MD schools.

Oh and Ireland isn't in the Commonwealth, slickwatts.

I'm not sure what kind of bad name calling slick watts is (it is from that side of the atlantic?) but I meant that CANADA is a commonwealth country...Ireland is part of the UK

and frankly i would rather live in the Eastern part of Virginia (or anywhere in the US) than anywhere in the UK, but hey thats just me...

BUT if the goal is to live and practice as a physician IN THE US, then YES...without a doubt....being a graduate of a US allopathic medical school IS the end all be all and a US medical school DOES trump any other medical school...if you do not know that, its because you are not involved in the US medical system...if you were stupid enough to CHOOSE to go abroad for a medical education with a goal of returning to practice in the US, you are gonna to be kicking yourself when you either don't match, or matched into a lesser program than if you had been an AMG (and yes i will take the infraction for calling you stupid...because in this time of increasing US MD class sizes, US MD school openings, increases in US DO class sizes and US DO school openings to get into a US MD school and actively CHOOSE to refuse it and go abroad is world class stupid)...being the last ranked graduate of the # 134 ranked US MD school is going to open doors for that student that are closed to the #1 graduate of the best medical school in the world...ethnocentric? maybe, but guess what? the US medical education system IS ethnocentric...its not that an F/IMG can't match and can't match at great programs...but that person that matched a fabulous program or uber competitive residency would have had a LOT more interviews and at even better programs and would have had a much easier time getting said interviews and clinical rotations...

It may be that there aren't as many Americans per class because its not as advantageous for a US citizen to go to an Irish school.

and i know plenty about canadians and the difficulties they have getting into the few canadian schools...we had ~20% of our class from Canada, from pretty prestigious schools (UofT, McGill, Dalhousie...)and i don't argue that it may be more beneficial for canadians to go to an Irish school (because CANADA is a Commonwealth country and being a graduate through the Atlantic Bridge Program may give them a better chance at a Canadian residency), but IF a Canadian goes to Ireland in hopes of bettering their chances a a US residency spot...its no different than ANY OTHER FOREIGN SCHOOL.

and many of us had scores "worthy of mid tier US MD schools"...many of us (myself included) wait listed at these school, but many of us come from states that had too few med schools for the states population, had huge state populations, or come from states where being in state doesn't make a big difference (ding, ding, ding!)...

i'm not saying that those that go to Irish school can't match...i'm sure they can and do...from my personal experience have not had any interview at my residency program, and have not seen any in other residency programs where i have friends...and if only 1-5 americans go to these schools, then there are only a handful at best.

and AGAIN, please post a link to a match list from these Irish school....prove me wrong...or a website that shows an Irish grad that is part of a US residency program...but i notice neither of you are able to do so...

Originally Posted by Targaryen

I like Cpt's idea of giving INTO students the opportunity (at least some of them) to remain in London for the entire program.

Perhaps London spots can be awarded based on class rank or something like that.

The licensing issues that come with a split program (half in one country half in another) are a concern but they won't be an issue for students who do the whole program in London.

Hi Targaryen,

Thanks for the feedback! The goal of the INTO SGUL program is to provide students with the opportunity to study in both the UK and US so that they're exposed to both healthcare systems so that students who are keen on completing residency in the US will have actual US clinical experience. We are working on items that address the accreditation concerns and I will be posting updates about that when finalized information is available.

Best Regards,

Shannon

have you thought of doing something on the same lines as the U Queensland/Oschner collaboration...not sure how successful it will ultimately be (i don't think they have had a graduating class yet) but having a direct link to a hospital that has numerous residency and fellowships but LACKS a medical school could be beneficial to both...

Hi Rokshana,

We're definitely aware of their program. I can't say if we'll go that route down the line- but we are familiar with what they're doing.

Best Regards,

Shannon