Thread: whose degree?

Hi, I read on on your London's school wiki-page that : "During the 2011/2012 academic year, it was announced that students now had the option of graduating with either a Univeristy of London degree or a St George's, University of London one", so which one is for the Nicosia school and what is the difference?

Citizenship is one thing. How applicants for FY1 are accepted into programs is something else.

Could you clarify for us your experience in this regard? My list of priorities came from a physician with significant experience of these matters. What is your experience / source of information?

Originally Posted by Tipton

Citizenship is one thing. How applicants for FY1 are accepted into programs is something else.

Could you clarify for us your experience in this regard? My list of priorities came from a physician with significant experience of these matters. What is your experience / source of information?

I don't know how this plays out in the UK, but within the EU there are absolutely differences in acceptability, based on where you are from. This is practically speaking, not according to some wide-eyed notion of "Oh my gosh and golly, that could NEVER happen, because it would be DISCRIMINATORY." (Which, I'm sorry, is sheer naivety.)


As an example, in considering EU and (non-EU) graduates for training posts in Germany, I have a very well-placed friend who works as a recruiter for academic hospitals. He has flat out told me that there are unofficial "ranking lists" for different EU and non-EU grads in Germany. At the moment, coming from SE Europe, Greek physicians are currently quite well-considered in Germany, whereas Bulgarian and Romanian physicians are toward the bottom of the EU ladder. The Balkan crew are generally ranked somewhere above non-EU applicants from the Middle East (who often may have issues - rightly or wrongly - with German immigration officials), but still below the rest of the EU.

This is unofficial, but it's what he sees from day to day. It is reality, but it is completely off the books and based on who gets the gig, so it's not like it could be prosecuted anyway. An applicant from Greece who speaks B2 level German is generally more likely to get the post than an applicant from Bulgaria with the same language skills. That's usually the way it rolls. Now, I know plenty of docs from Bulgaria who have garnered positions in Germany and elsewhere, but it is based on their sheer excellence when compared to peers. All things being equal, they would have a hard time... but if they bring a C1 or C2 language cert to the table, and plenty of experience, and publications, and a PhD, blah blah blah, then they can tilt the scales. But those scales weren't anywhere near balanced to start with.


Now, OK... perhaps the GMC and the UK are positioned loftily above all of this prejudice. Perhaps they are working from a completely clean slate, in which nobody in any hiring position at any hospital has any preconceived notions about people from different areas of the EU. Perhaps the UK offers a completely just society to EU citizens, no matter where they are from.


Perhaps, but I bloody well doubt it... and my Bulgarian friends in London (non-physicians) tell me otherwise, as well. Placing specific work-permit restrictions on Balkan immigrants -- which are NOT in place for other EU citizens -- is pretty damned discriminatory, innit?

devildoc, you came up with a really specific and random scenario.

Lets put it this way. Just a hypothetical scenario.

Lets say SGUL-Nicosia had 15 students in the class. Academically, the top 5 students in the year are Italian citizens. The middle 5 students are Canadians. And the bottom 5 are British citizens. There are only 8 places left in the Foundation Programme (I'm not saying this is the case, but for the sake of argument lets use my scenario). All students have the same English language ability.

All 5 Italians will be placed first, followed by 3 of the 5 British citizens, and none of the Canadians because they dont have EU citizenship.

If any of the 5 British citizens were placed over the Italians the Foundation Programme could be sued by the Italian students.

In short, Tipton, this is beneficial to you as a marketing tool. Because every student at SGUL-Nicosia will be on equal footing for FY1 placements. In truth because its a UK medical school, as you say, most, if not all of the EU citizens in the programme should get an FY1 in the UK, if they choose to apply.

I understand the significance of this for EU citizens. However I would like some evidence of this other than the equivalence of citizenship across borders. What evidence do you have that ALL EU citizens have the same access to FY1 in the UK?

My scenario was not random. Rather, it is real life. Not hypothetical. (Oh, and those work permit restrictions for Balkan EU citizens are the order of the day in the UK right now. That is not a medical thing, but it is also a reality.)

Your hypothetical situation has conveniently used W-EU and Canadian examples... There is no perceivable bias against Italians (OK, full disclosure, I do usually root against them in the Euro Cup -- but not against their DOCTORS, at least), nor against the plucky Canucks, except of course that they are not EU.

Change your hypothetical situation to include 5 Romanians, 5 Saudis, and 5 Brits, and then let me know if you are convinced that the numbers will hold true. I am not. I could be wrong, but I am not convinced at all.

Originally Posted by RockOfTheAges

devildoc, you came up with a really specific and random scenario.

Lets put it this way. Just a hypothetical scenario.

Lets say SGUL-Nicosia had 15 students in the class. Academically, the top 5 students in the year are Italian citizens. The middle 5 students are Canadians. And the bottom 5 are British citizens. There are only 8 places left in the Foundation Programme (I'm not saying this is the case, but for the sake of argument lets use my scenario). All students have the same English language ability.

All 5 Italians will be placed first, followed by 3 of the 5 British citizens, and none of the Canadians because they dont have EU citizenship.

If any of the 5 British citizens were placed over the Italians the Foundation Programme could be sued by the Italian students.

In short, Tipton, this is beneficial to you as a marketing tool. Because every student at SGUL-Nicosia will be on equal footing for FY1 placements. In truth because its a UK medical school, as you say, most, if not all of the EU citizens in the programme should get an FY1 in the UK, if they choose to apply.

I stand slightly corrected.

Bulgarian and Romanian citizens, although EU nationals, require special permission to work within the UK. Which could inhibit their ability to participate in the Foundation Programme.

Nevertheless, nationals of Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom would be given equal consideration for FY1 posts. Additionally, EEA nationals and Swiss nationals would also be on equal footing with the aforementioned countries. EEA countries include Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway.

Spot on, Rocko. All things being equal (language skills inclusive, which is a tough nut to crack), your exhaustive list is correct.

It's the Balkan thing that strikes home for me because I happen to live/study there, although I'm not a citizen. Depending on the situation, I might actually be better off as a US citizen for some locations!

Many EU medical graduates are not eligible to enter the UK FY1 or Irish internship year because they have completed the equivalent internship year in their medical degrees. Such doctors are entitled to full registration in the UK when the graduate. I believe the Scandinavian countries also apply this rule.

With regards to the restrictions on Bulgarian and Romanian citizens and their free movment within the EU, this applies in many western EU nations. I have many friends who have been affected by this and this is unfair. Singling out the UK does not tell the whole story, as many countries in the EU have applied these restrictions. They also applied the restrictions to the countries that joined the EU in 2004, which the UK did not do. However, it is a form of discrimination. I am looking forward to 2014 when this restriction will be lifted.

Regarding discrimination against doctors, the UKBA website states that postgraduate doctors from Romania or Bulgaria do not need a permission to work in the UK.

On another matter, how does a graduate from the St George's program get on if they want to register in the UK? My understanding is that the GMC require 50% of the education for a primary medical education be undertaken in the country awarding the degree. It appears that other medical schools have faced issues with this.

Originally Posted by Tipton

I understand the significance of this for EU citizens. However I would like some evidence of this other than the equivalence of citizenship across borders. What evidence do you have that ALL EU citizens have the same access to FY1 in the UK?

www*foundationprogramme*nhs*uk/download*asp?file=Eligbility_Criteria_2013_-_FINAL_for_publishing_June_2012*pdf
The foundation programme eligibility criteria states:
"Eligible applicants must: ... be a UK or EEA national OR be a student of a UK medical school in their final
year of study OR have the right to work as a doctor in training in the UK which
remains valid until the start of the UK Foundation Programme 2013. Applicants
who are unable to submit a valid right to work will only be considered if there are
insufficient suitable applicants who have the right to work in the UK**."

(REPLACE * WITH . AS IT WON'T LET ME POST LINKS)

Now, the question (for me at least) would be whether this program counts as a "UK medical school" so to allow me, as an American student, the chance to apply for an F1 post.