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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 12:04 PM
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I thought that was a great summary of why people should avoid entry direct from high school.
I've seen quite a few of the products of Central and Eastern European English language med. courses who came straight from U.K. secondary school. Yes, they were missing out on a lot from normal U.K. university and a number have failed to mature in the way that I would have expected if they'd taken that other route.
In many ways I also regret that the norm here in the U.K. is for direct entry to a 5-year course (Graduate-entry 4-year progs. were only introduced a few years ago). The only saving grace is that usually students have opportunity to mix with other students of the university their med. school is a part of.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 12:54 PM
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Just gotta weed out the immature youngsters.

Some people do develop young. I’ve been self employed and out on my own paying my own bills since I was eighteen. It gives those type personalities an option outside of the normal route which is good. Of course, I’m not a doctor and my job didn’t require that I be professional until I got into non-profit stuff. But I did have to be goal oriented, focused and self disciplined. I think the immature students you’ve seen may be a result of a poor interview process. A younger student coming direct from secondary school shouldn’t be dismissed or discouraged but they should have to go through a series of interviews by experienced educators and pros designed to weed out the immature ones.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 01:28 PM
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different

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Some people do develop young. I’ve been self employed and out on my own paying my own bills since I was eighteen. It gives those type personalities an option outside of the normal route which is good. Of course, I’m not a doctor and my job didn’t require that I be professional until I got into non-profit stuff. But I did have to be goal oriented, focused and self disciplined. I think the immature students you’ve seen may be a result of a poor interview process. A younger student coming direct from secondary school shouldn’t be dismissed or discouraged but they should have to go through a series of interviews by experienced educators and pros designed to weed out the immature ones.
the ability to pay your bills on time and 'growing up' early does not give most the emotional depth to deal with medical issues. living through college puts things in your personal armory to be able to empathize with people's problems.

i don't think it is as much the actual act of muddling through courses or crawling up stairs to pass out. i think the emotional minefield that you go through is what will make you a better doctor. you may see drug addiction start, destroy a life upclose, someone die commit suicide overdrinking, sexual attcks, rapes, etc. then there are relationship issues that are in another league vs high school. being through real heartbreak not some highschool angst will give you a better understanding of the depressed divorced wife. all these things add up and make you medically mature...
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 02:26 PM
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the ability to pay your bills on time and 'growing up' early does not give most the emotional depth to deal with medical issues. living through college puts things in your personal armory to be able to empathize with people's problems.

i don't think it is as much the actual act of muddling through courses or crawling up stairs to pass out. i think the emotional minefield that you go through is what will make you a better doctor. you may see drug addiction start, destroy a life upclose, someone die commit suicide overdrinking, sexual attcks, rapes, etc. then there are relationship issues that are in another league vs high school. being through real heartbreak not some highschool angst will give you a better understanding of the depressed divorced wife. all these things add up and make you medically mature...
That's a superbly eloquent statement of the issue.
In answer to Empathy's last post - No, I wouldn't want to totally prohibit school-leavers from entering med. school. I agree that there are some such people with almost preternatural maturity who put us all to shame. But I think that for the vast majority a gap of a few years between school and medicine is of enormous benefit. As well as the emotional education AUCMD2006 mentions there are other things which might seem trivial by comparison, but are still useful. It might be the experience of the world of work - if only during a summer vacation. It might be gathering knowledge of other professions, interests etc.
Med. school is a very unusual, rarefied world - by itself I don't think it adequately prepares most people for the kind of challenges a doctor will face in dealing with patients.
If we could devise interview techniques and psychometric tests that really could identify those who were suitable for direct entry that would be fine. But I think we're a long way from that yet. If and when we have such sophisticated screening my guess is that it would not admit many school leavers.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 02:53 PM
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But we have 18 year olds volunteering in ER’s, going on missions overseas and working in mission shelters. And how ‘bout the military? I’ve been around Washington a little bit so I know some lifers. They started out at 18 and never missed a step. Very driven, focused and goal oriented. Medicine is a calling and many great doctors receive that calling very young.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 03:22 PM
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Perhaps...

..."I think the immature students you’ve seen may be a result of a poor interview process."

As a result of a poor screening process?

Now, in terms of maturity age to enter medical school, lets not forget that in European countries like Spain, and most if not all Latin American Countries like Mexico, Chile, Argentina,Colombia, Ecuador, Peru..etc you enter medical school after our high school equivalent. Provided they admit you. How does their screening process compares it is up to debate. The vast majority of young physicians I have encountered in the afortementioned countries have come across as competent and mature enough to do the job. Some bad apples, yes, we find those everywhere.

Just my .02 cents, pesetas or pesos or euros






Quote:
Originally Posted by empathy View Post
Some people do develop young. I’ve been self employed and out on my own paying my own bills since I was eighteen. It gives those type personalities an option outside of the normal route which is good. Of course, I’m not a doctor and my job didn’t require that I be professional until I got into non-profit stuff. But I did have to be goal oriented, focused and self disciplined. I think the immature students you’ve seen may be a result of a poor interview process. A younger student coming direct from secondary school shouldn’t be dismissed or discouraged but they should have to go through a series of interviews by experienced educators and pros designed to weed out the immature ones.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 03:30 PM
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Gen

have you seen fmso lately?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genossa maximillian View Post
..."I think the immature students you’ve seen may be a result of a poor interview process."

As a result of a poor screening process?

Now, in terms of maturity age to enter medical school, lets not forget that in European countries like Spain, and most if not all Latin American Countries like Mexico, Chile, Argentina,Colombia, Ecuador, Peru..etc you enter medical school after our high school equivalent. Provided they admit you. How does their screening process compares it is up to debate. The vast majority of young physicians I have encountered in the afortementioned countries have come across as competent and mature enough to do the job. Some bad apples, yes, we find those everywhere.

Just my .02 cents, pesetas or pesos or euros





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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Genossa maximillian View Post
..............................
Now, in terms of maturity age to enter medical school, lets not forget that in European countries like Spain, and most if not all Latin American Countries like Mexico, Chile, Argentina,Colombia, Ecuador, Peru..etc you enter medical school after our high school equivalent. Provided they admit you. How does their screening process compares it is up to debate. The vast majority of young physicians I have encountered in the afortementioned countries have come across as competent and mature enough to do the job. Some bad apples, yes, we find those everywhere.

Just my .02 cents, pesetas or pesos or euros
I'm forced to the conclusion that Latin med. students must be a superior breed
Seriously, I don't want to rubbish the 18 year-old students here in the U.K. or anywhere else. The majority will end up as fine doctors. But if I had my way, to maximise the quality, I would prefer to see more graduate entry/mature students in this country.
One beneficial spin off from World War II was that a large number of people entered the profession slightly later than usual, their education having been disrupted by 5 years in the military. I believe they brought a wealth of useful experience and understanding to the profession.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 05:39 PM
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Give us another example

I don’t think it was the five years that made a difference in that generation but the war. War changes people…makes them deeper.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2007, 07:12 PM
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kind of

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genossa maximillian View Post
..."I think the immature students you’ve seen may be a result of a poor interview process."

As a result of a poor screening process?

Now, in terms of maturity age to enter medical school, lets not forget that in European countries like Spain, and most if not all Latin American Countries like Mexico, Chile, Argentina,Colombia, Ecuador, Peru..etc you enter medical school after our high school equivalent. Provided they admit you. How does their screening process compares it is up to debate. The vast majority of young physicians I have encountered in the afortementioned countries have come across as competent and mature enough to do the job. Some bad apples, yes, we find those everywhere.

Just my .02 cents, pesetas or pesos or euros






med school in most of these is also longer with the equivalent of our pre reqs the first year and a year of social internship at the end..that alone should mature you. there is no 'real' interviews at most of the ones you listed, it is basically those who have grades and can afford it can go..the real weedout process is actually staying and graduating..you can add france to that list...
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