About 2 months ago as many of us third year clincial students were setting up to do away rotations for 4th year we started hearing rumors that we could no longer do away rotations in Texas. After my roommate called up UT Houston to set up a rotation and was told he could not do so since SGU was not allowing their students to do rotations in Texas.

This came as a shock to both of us as we are both from Texas and I personally have a brother who just matched at UT Houston. We thought for sure we would hear something from SGU first before having to hear it from Texas.

The reason the school has given for not allowing SGU students to do rotations in Texas is that, "a student wrote the Texas Medical Board to ask about doing away rotations there and got a reply stating that in order for students to do away rotations in Texas there must be a faculty member from SGU at the location on staff where the student is doing their away rotation."

A group of us have looked into this statement and found that it is the third stipulation out of three for what is required for a student to do away rotations in Texas. There has been a group of us working on this issue but every response I get is that "Our legal team is waiting to hear back from the TMB and I don't expect an answer anytime soon." Other students have been sending other bits of information to Bayshore and the response at times has been that they didn't even know that information. This gives me the idea that they aren't really working on this as hard as they say they are.

The newest Development is that Dean W has decided it is okay for us to do electives there but that they can not count toward our 30 weeks of electives.

Essentially I am writing this to let all current third years and soon to be third years know what situation you are facing if you are considering doing away rotations in your home state of Texas. We had 16 students match back in Texas this year partly because so many were able to do electives there before the match. If this situation doesn't change soon, that number may be less next year. If you want to help get things rolling, get a hold of your clinical coordinator and let them know you want to be kept updated on the Texas away rotation and check in weekly with them to see if anything has changed. I'm not telling you to pester them or to write nasty emails, but just asking you to get involved so that they know how many students their decision is affecting.

If you have any information as to how this situation got started, any new developments, or any ideas for how to get this situation corected, post it here.

Thanks,

P

i think a few points are worth making;
first there are state rules rules about away electives. this is not merely sgu's choice. you can essentially get yourself denied a state license if you do away rotations should you seek them in some states. I think youre stumbling into a situation feeling youre being screwed when in fact i think youre just uninformed about the complexities with regard to away electives. You do them at your own peril. SGU is not going to be able to protect you from yourself should you swerve off the beaten path, which has been established to make sure you have NO LICENSING ISSUES. If you choose otherwise, its at your own risk. there are 50 states with 50 different policies, some quite subtle. Up untila few years ago sgu students were only considered elible for licensure in texas on a case by case basis. So basically I think youre barking up the wrong tree.

Also students match in texas regardless of doing away rotations there. And so no the numbers really shouldnt be predicted to be less than in prior years since in recent prior eyars, it was quite difficult for an img to get a license in texas. Its not a "new development" that you can do extra rotations that dont count towards your degree. Obviously not everyone has the time to do it. But again these policies are there to protect students who might ignorantly seek to do electives that will unwittingly and effectively render them short of an MD degree.

So youre right to seek more information yourself before embarking on a campaign. Id suggest doing a search on licensure first, and texas in particular.

__________________
Steph
If you get a warning, put on yer manpants and stop whining about it.

i have been hearing about this from MANY of the 3rd years at my hospital (there are an inordinate number of texans at joes), and they HAVE done their research- more than one have talked directly to Mrs. Meyers (her SN here on vmd, btw) - the foreign school laison for the tmb and have gotten her statements in writing, that it IS SGU that is holding up the paperwork and has told the various schools - UT-Houston in particular- NOT to process sgu students. The TMB has assured the inquiring students that so long as they are enrolled as a visiting student at the respective school that they wish to rotate, that there will be no issue of licensure within texas. And if the policy is cavaet empetor, then these students have investigated the issues and sgu shouldn't hold the paperwork- these programs are ACGME rotations, so there should not be any issue.

someone at sgu is mistakenly thinking that there MUST be an sgu-affliated attending present at the school. That is only ONE of THREE routes that can be taken by foreign students...#2 is to be enrolled as a visiting student...it is an "OR" not an "AND" for the requirements

and as for the number of texas matches...2007 had 10, 2008 had 17- that is a significant jump---and it is not IMHO a coincidence that 2008 was the 1st year sgu was on the equivilency list AND that sgu students rotated through numberous Texas hospitals.

these 3rd years only have a few more weeks to be able to set up these rotations--many of the schools require a 4 month lead time, and lets face it an away rotation done after nov is not helpful for residency apps

sgu is the ONLY school that is hindering their students in getting unaffliated rotations, in particular texas, but in all of them (but that is a different topic)- Ross and AUC students do not have this issue with their school.

Texans make up a big number of each year's classes and as we all should know by now, they have a umm, distinct preference for their home state, and if sgu continues to styme the ability to get rotations and eventually residencies in texas, they will see these students go to schools that don't put obstacles in their efforts to get back home.


these students HAVE done the research AND have utilized the appropriate channels to get this issue resolved...however they are feeling that everything they are saying is falling on deaf ears...and the above post is a result of their frustration.

__________________
GI Elective [x]....Wards []
Wards [x] ............Night Float []
MICU [x thank GOD!] ...........Wards []
Wards [] ............CCU []
Elective!![]......... PGY 1 1/2 []
VACATION!!!! [] .Move Complete[]

Hey Rokshana where did the actual documentation that you pulled the statement you made "That is only ONE of THREE routes that can be taken by foreign students...#2 is to be enrolled as a visiting student...it is an "OR" not an "AND" for the requirements" Are you refering to Form J if so I was wondering what exactly do you believe says that we may do what you quoted? Because I wrote to my counselor who wrote back to me the following

" Regarding electives in Texas, we have had students do them in the past.
But it is unlikely that students will be allowed to do them in the future.
Texas now requires us to have an affiliation with the Texas hospital and a
preceptor from our school at that hospital. At this time, we are not
affiliated with any Texas hospitals"

When I said to her that this is incorrect she requested to know my source of interpretation. I honestly cannot see where it states in Form J what she wrote to me either.Thank you ahead of time.

jeez.. i hope it wasn't me that caused all this problem. I emailed TMB a while back for information and they had to forward to a few people until they gave me a vague answer. Here's the link when I emailed them.

http://www.valuemd.com/st-georges-un...licensure.html

Sorry - duplicate post

Thank you Rokshana! That was very well said and that is exactly the situation we 4th years are facing right now with regard to Texas. I couldn't have said it better myself. We have most definitely done our research (nice to always assume we're uninformed though), the problem is, what we find out rarely correlates with what the school is telling us. Not to mention the school isn't actually giving us a straight answer. In fact, every person at SGU will give you a different answer. My husband and I have spoken to Dean W's office and JM (on several occasions) and a few others and it seems as though this will get dragged out until it is too late for our class to do electives. And you are right, any rotation after november, is futile (which would be when we would do our "non-curriculum" rotations). This is very disheartening and we feel as though our hands are tied.

Nothing has changed from the TMB's standpoint. This is a fact. Something doesn't add up and the students are trying very hard to get some answers -- and obviously, we're not getting anywhere. We haven't even been given a timeline and there has been no updates on the Clinical Website since April 1st. While it may be true that some students matched in Texas without doing electives, it is a DEFINITE advantage to do a rotation and there is no rebutting that. I have spoken to many of the students who matched in '08 in Texas and most of them agreed that their rotation was *key* to their position in residency. That was part of my research, you see.

Anyway, for those of you who are new to this, we've got a good discussion going on the SGU talk (to which no university representative has yet responded). I frankly don't see how this situation is any different from students who desire to return to California. It is a "unique" situation, which requires more information and help from our school. The difference is that California issues are much more nicely laid out for the students (if you dont' believe me, see the "California Dreamin'" link on the clinicals website). As for the school trying to "protect" uninformed students, I would rather they save us that altruistic gesture, allow us to do rotations in our home state (like other Caribbean schools), give us a fair chance at obtaining a residency there (that's another three years of our lives) and let us deal with licensing issues later, when the time comes. Heck, give me a warning, if you must. Ultimately, if I mess up, I'll deal with it. I don't need SGU to protect me without giving me a proper answer as to what the policy is.

Thanks again Rokshana. This is very important to a big chunk of students and your post was very *informed* and well written. Hopefully, somebody from the school will read it and the wheels can start turning again SOON.

i defer to rok on this.

__________________
Steph
If you get a warning, put on yer manpants and stop whining about it.

§162.1. Supervision of Medical Students.

Only a physician with a current and unrestricted Texas medical license may supervise a medical student if the medical student meets the following criteria:
(1) is enrolled at a Texas medical school;
(2) is a student at a medical school located outside Texas and is enrolled as a visiting student at a Texas medical school; or
(3) will receive supervised medical education in a Texas hospital or teaching institution sponsoring or participating in a program of graduate medical education accredited by the Accrediting Council for Graduate Medical Education, the American Osteopathic Association, or the Texas State Board of Medical Examiners in the same subject as the medical or osteopathic medical education in which the hospital or teaching institution has an agreement with the applicant's school.

Source Note: The provisions of this §162.1 adopted to be effective November 30, 2003, 28 TexReg 10480; amended to be effective January 9, 2005, 29 TexReg 12187.

i added the bold and enlarged the font, but otherwise its from the tmb

also check out this form

http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/professio...s/FORM%20J.pdf

and interestingly enough, sgu has all of this posted on the clinical website - dated april 8th of this year!!!

and my experience is that many of those clinical coordinators are NOT that up-to-date on their info---some will even tell you you MUST do a peds sub-i for your 4th year requirements (and thast was done away with TWO years ago- fyi- you just need to do a peds ELECTIVE to satisfy the sgu requirement).

and AGAIN, it is NOT the tmb that is requiring this, it is someone AT sgu that is misinterpreting the statue.

__________________
GI Elective [x]....Wards []
Wards [x] ............Night Float []
MICU [x thank GOD!] ...........Wards []
Wards [] ............CCU []
Elective!![]......... PGY 1 1/2 []
VACATION!!!! [] .Move Complete[]

Yep it is no surprise that even with a document clearly stating one thing that someone at SGU would be unable to properly interpret what it says.
After all I recently attended a function in NJ where JM & the infamous MJ spoke to the students and actually told us that the average USMLE score for American medical students was 240-270 and that they read this in the NY Times---the only problem is that the article they quoted spoke specifically about the students who were apply to Dermatology . I mean if they can screw up something soo obvious then it really is not surprising that someone is unable to understand or see the OR in the statement-- humm maybe Rok you could find a way to bold type the original for them like you did in your post. Oh well take care and thanks again.