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Old 10-11-2004, 02:33 PM
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Which Saba rotations are Greenbook?

Saba posts a few of it's hospital affiliations on there website. I'd like to know which ones are ACGME greenbook rotations available for students.
I want to know because I want to get all greenbook rotations if at all possible, to make licensure in Texas more likely.

The hospitals websites don't say anything as far as I can see regarding greenbook rotations available to clinical students. I could look up the hospitals on the FRIEDA website, but that would only tell me if they have a greenbook rotation(s), not if Saba students can do a rotation in that core area at those hospitals.

I know that Saba is reluctant to give out that info, since they don't want students who aren't even attending Saba yet calling and harassing hospitals about rotations (I'm not gonna do that), and everything should be done through the Saba clinical office when it comes time to set up rotations.

Can anybody help me?
Thanks
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Old 10-12-2004, 02:17 PM
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bump

bump...i don't want this one to get lost in the shuffle, thanks
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Old 10-12-2004, 05:42 PM
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re: Green Book rotations

As you probably know, Green Book rotations are those that are done at ACGME approved teaching hospitals, i.e. those that have a residency program. One of the easiest ways to verify the status of a given site or to look for prospective residency programs is on the ACGME website, “List of ACGME Accredited Programs and Sponsoring Institutions”. The address is http://www.acgme.org/adspublic/

I hope this helps and, by the way, best of luck with the upcoming Cali decision!


Peace,
SMU-MS3
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Old 10-12-2004, 06:05 PM
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Which Saba rotations are Greenbook?

I met a few Saba students over in Baltimore at Spring Grove. You do a psych rotation there and it is greenbook. That's all I know for sure though.

I think the hardest one to find would be neurology that is greenbook AND the hospital affiliated with your med school having a neurology residency. You should pm Julestx for more info on this, she's been following this fairly closely.. or even Mrs. Meyer who is a state rep for Texas(medical licensing board?).
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:58 PM
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thanks

Thanks micro!
So that's one I didn't know about. It makes since that Neurology would be a bit more scarce. The catch would indeed be to make sure such a rotation is affiliated by contract with Saba, in order to meet the TSBME's rules.

Anybody know about other greenbook sites?
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Old 10-26-2004, 05:46 PM
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greenbook?

Wolfgang,

Did you get anywhere with your questions?


-also-


Does Texas require that all rotations be greenbook- or just core rotations?

Are there other states which have such requirements?
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Old 10-26-2004, 06:17 PM
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no, not yet

No, unfortuantely I've been a bit lazy and/or too busy to chase down the answers about the location and availability of Saba greenbook clinicals at this time.

I do believe that Texas requires all rotations to be green-book.
From the TSBME website (at http://www.tsbme.state.tx.us/rules/m...155.htm#155002 ):
Quote:
(b) All medical or osteopathic medical education an applicant receives in the United States must be accredited by an accrediting body officially recognized by the United States Department of Education as the accrediting body for medical education leading to the doctor of medicine degree or the doctor of osteopathy degree. This subsection does not apply to postgraduate medical education or training.

(c) An applicant who is unable to meet the requirement established by Subsection (b) may be eligible for an unrestricted license if the applicant:

(1) received medical education in a hospital or teaching institution sponsoring or participating in a program of graduate medical education accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, the American Osteopathic Association, or the board in the same subject as the medical or osteopathic medical education as defined by board rule; or

(2) is specialty board certified by a specialty board approved by the American Osteopathic Association or the American Board of Medical Specialties.

(d) In addition to the other requirements prescribed by this subtitle, the board may require an applicant to comply with other requirements that the board considers appropriate.
I don't think other states have this requirement.
However, I think it is a worth strategy to attempt to meet licensure requirements in a tough state such as Texas, as this practically makes you a shoe-in for licensure in many other states.
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Old 10-26-2004, 07:01 PM
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greenbook

(2) is specialty board certified by a specialty board approved by the American Osteopathic Association or the American Board of Medical Specialties.




This makes it sound as though it does not matter if rotations are greenbook or not- as long as one is board certified. Am I missing something?

Thanks.
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Old 10-26-2004, 07:16 PM
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greenbook

Quote:
Originally Posted by jh13
(2) is specialty board certified by a specialty board approved by the American Osteopathic Association or the American Board of Medical Specialties.




This makes it sound as though it does not matter if rotations are greenbook or not- as long as one is board certified. Am I missing something?

Thanks.
You may be correct! That would be a good question to put to the TSBME member who posts here once in a while. However, keep in mind that d.) says that the TSBME can also require pretty much whatever else they damn well please... Such language is common in medical licensure legislation.
It would be a relief if you are correct, though.
The TSBME licensure rules on their website ( http://www.tsbme.state.tx.us/rules/rules/163.htm#1633 ) says this:
Quote:
163.1. Definitions.

(a) The following words and terms, when used in this chapter, shall have the following meanings, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise.

(1) Acceptable approved medical school - A medical school or college located in the United States or Canada that has been accredited by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education or the American Osteopathic Association Bureau of Professional Education.

(2) Acceptable unapproved medical school – A school or college located outside the United States or Canada that:

(A) is substantially equivalent to a Texas medical school; and

(B) has not been disapproved by another state physician licensing agency unless the applicant can provide evidence that the disapproval was unfounded.
Saba could have a problem with the "substantially equivalent" language here, because Saba does not require the MCAT:
Quote:
(13) Substantially equivalent to a Texas medical school - A medical school or college that is an institution of higher learning designed to select and educate medical students; provide students with the opportunity to acquire a sound basic medical education through training in basic sciences and clinical sciences; provide advancement of knowledge through research; develop programs of graduate medical education to produce practitioners, teachers, and researchers; and afford opportunity for postgraduate and continuing medical education. The school must provide resources, including faculty and facilities, sufficient to support a curriculum offered in an intellectual environment that enables the program to meet these standards. The faculty of the school shall actively contribute to the development and transmission of new knowledge. The medical school shall contribute to the advancement of knowledge and to the intellectual growth of its students and faculty through scholarly activity, including research. The medical school shall include, but not be limited to, the following characteristics:

(A) The facilities for basic sciences and clinical training (i.e., laboratories, hospitals, library, etc.) shall be adequate to ensure opportunity for proper education.

(B) The admissions standards shall be substantially equivalent to a Texas medical school.

(C) The basic sciences curriculum shall include the contemporary content of those expanded disciplines that have been traditionally titled gross anatomy, biochemistry, biology, histology, physiology, microbiology, immunology, pathology, pharmacology and neuroscience, as defined by the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board.

(D) The fundamental clinical subjects, which shall be offered in the form of required patient-related clerkships, are internal medicine, obstetrics and gynecology, pediatrics, psychiatry, neurology, family practice, introduction to patient/physical examination, and surgery, as defined by the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board.

(E) The curriculum shall be of at least 130 weeks in duration.

(F) The school shall provide advancement of knowledge through research.

(G) The school shall develop programs of graduate medical education to produce practitioners, teachers, and researchers.

(H) The school shall provide opportunity for postgraduate and continuing medical education.

(I) Medical education courses must be centrally organized, integrated and controlled into a continuous program which was conducted, monitored and approved by the medical school which issues the degree.
The website does also say that :
Quote:
(c) Applicants for licensure who are graduates of medical schools outside the United States or Canada must furnish all appropriate documentation listed in this subsection, as well as that listed in subsections (a) and (b) of this section.

(1) Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) Status Report. Each applicant must submit an ECFMG status report.

(2) Unique Documentation. The board may request documentation unique to an individual unapproved medical school and additional documentation as needed to verify completion of medical education that is substantially equivalent to a Texas medical school education. This may include but is not limited to:

(A) a copy of the applicant's ECFMG file;

(B) a copy of other states' licensing files;

(C) copies of the applicant's clinical clerkship evaluations; and

(D) a copy of the applicant's medical school file.

(3) Certificate of Registration. Each applicant must provide a copy of his or her certificate to practice in the country in which his or her medical school is located. If a certificate is unavailable, a letter submitted directly to this board from the body governing licensure of physicians in the country in which the school is located, will be accepted. The letter must state that the applicant has met all the requirements for licensure in the country in which the school is located. If an applicant is not licensed in the country of graduation due to a citizenship requirement, a letter attesting to this, submitted directly to this board, will be required.

(4) Clinical Clerkship Affidavit. A form, supplied by the board, to be completed by the applicant, is required listing each clinical clerkship that was completed as part of an applicant's medical education. The form will require the name of the clerkship, where the clerkship was located (name and location of hospital) and dates of the clerkship.

(5) “Substantially equivalent” documentation. An applicant who is a graduate of a medical school that is located outside the United States and Canada must present satisfactory proof to the board that each medical school attended was substantially equivalent to a Texas medical school at the time of attendance as defined under §163.1(13) of this title. This may include but is not limited to:

(A) a Foreign Educational Credentials Evaluation from the Office of International Education Services of the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers (AACRAO);

(B) a board questionnaire, to be completed by the medical school and returned directly to board;

(C) a copy of the medical school's catalog;

(D) verification from the country’s educational agency confirming the validity of school and licensure of applicant;

(E) proof of written agreements between the medical school and all hospitals that are not located in the same country as the medical school, where medical education was obtained;

(F) proof that the faculty members of the medical school had written contracts with the school if they taught a course outside the country where the medical school was located;

(G) proof that the medical education courses taught in the United States complied with the higher education laws of the state in which the courses were taught;

(H) proof that the faculty members of the medical school who taught courses in the United States were on the faculty of the program of graduate medical education when the courses were taught; and

(I) proof that all education completed in the United States or Canada was while the applicant was enrolled as a visiting student as evidenced by a letter of verification from the U.S. or Canadian medical school.

(6) Medical Diploma. Each applicant must submit a copy of his or her medical diploma, and translation if necessary.
This last quote, especially the bolded part, makes it clear that clinicals will be evaluated by the TSBME, but doesn't say anything about ACGME.
This is also interesting:
Quote:
163.4. Procedural Rules for Licensure Applicants.

(a) All applicants for licensure:

(1) if appropriate, are encouraged to use the Federation Credentials Verification Service (FCVS) offered by the Federation of State Medical Boards of the United States (FSMB) to verify medical education, postgraduate training, licensure examination history, board action history and identity;

(2) whose applications have been filed with the board in excess of one year will be considered expired. Any fee previously submitted with that application shall be forfeited. Any further request for licensure will require submission of a new application and inclusion of the current licensure fee;

(3) who in any way submit a false or misleading statement, document, or certificate in an application may be required to appear before the board. It will be at the discretion of the board whether or not the applicant will be issued a Texas license;

(4) on whom adverse information is received by the board may be required to appear before the board. It will be at the discretion of the board whether or not the applicant will be issued a Texas license;

(5) shall be required to comply with the board's rules and regulations which are in effect at the time the application form and fee are filed with the board;

(6) may be required to sit for additional oral, written, mental or physical examinations that, in the opinion of the board, are necessary to determine competency and ability of the applicant;

(7) must have the application for licensure complete in every detail 20 days prior to the board meeting in which they are considered for licensure. Applicants with complete applications may qualify for a Temporary License prior to being considered by the board for licensure, as required by §163.7 of this title (relating to Temporary Licensure - Regular); and

(8) that receive any medical or osteopathic medical education in the United States must have obtained such education while enrolled as a full-time or visiting student at a medical school that is accredited by an accrediting body officially recognized by the United States Department of Education as the accrediting body for medical education leading to the doctor of medicine degree or the doctor of osteopathy degree in the United States. This subsection does not apply to postgraduate medical education or training. An applicant who is unable to comply with this requirement must demonstrate that the applicant either:

(A) received such medical education in a hospital or teaching institution sponsoring or participating in a program of graduate medical education accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, the American Osteopathic Association, or the Texas State Board of Medical Examiners in the same subject as the medical or osteopathic medical education if the hospital or teaching institution has an agreement with the applicant’s school; or

(B) is specialty board certified by a board approved by the Bureau of Osteopathic Specialists or the American Board of Medical Specialties.


(b) Applicants for a license must subscribe to an oath in writing. The written oath is part of the application. (c) An applicant is not eligible for a license if:

(1) the applicant holds a medical license that is currently restricted for cause, canceled for cause, suspended for cause, or revoked by a state of the United States, a province of Canada, or a uniformed service of the United States; (2) an investigation or a proceeding is instituted against the applicant for the restriction, cancellation, suspension, or revocation of the applicant's medical license in a state of the United States, a province of Canada, or a uniformed service of the United States; or

(3) a prosecution is pending against the applicant in any state, federal, or Canadian court for any offense that under the laws of this state is a felony or a misdemeanor that involves moral turpitude.
The part I bolded seems to be a reiteration of what I posted before, except in more detail.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2004, 10:07 PM
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Um, yes it did?

Quote:
This last quote, especially the bolded part, makes it clear that clinicals will be evaluated by the TSBME, but doesn't say anything about ACGME.
Um, yes it did:

Quote:
This is also interesting:
Quote:
163.4. Procedural Rules for Licensure Applicants.

(a) All applicants for licensure:

(1) if appropriate, are encouraged to use the Federation Credentials Verification Service (FCVS) offered by the Federation of State Medical Boards of the United States (FSMB) to verify medical education, postgraduate training, licensure examination history, board action history and identity;

(2) whose applications have been filed with the board in excess of one year will be considered expired. Any fee previously submitted with that application shall be forfeited. Any further request for licensure will require submission of a new application and inclusion of the current licensure fee;

(3) who in any way submit a false or misleading statement, document, or certificate in an application may be required to appear before the board. It will be at the discretion of the board whether or not the applicant will be issued a Texas license;

(4) on whom adverse information is received by the board may be required to appear before the board. It will be at the discretion of the board whether or not the applicant will be issued a Texas license;

(5) shall be required to comply with the board's rules and regulations which are in effect at the time the application form and fee are filed with the board;

(6) may be required to sit for additional oral, written, mental or physical examinations that, in the opinion of the board, are necessary to determine competency and ability of the applicant;

(7) must have the application for licensure complete in every detail 20 days prior to the board meeting in which they are considered for licensure. Applicants with complete applications may qualify for a Temporary License prior to being considered by the board for licensure, as required by §163.7 of this title (relating to Temporary Licensure - Regular); and

( that receive any medical or osteopathic medical education in the United States must have obtained such education while enrolled as a full-time or visiting student at a medical school that is accredited by an accrediting body officially recognized by the United States Department of Education as the accrediting body for medical education leading to the doctor of medicine degree or the doctor of osteopathy degree in the United States. This subsection does not apply to postgraduate medical education or training. An applicant who is unable to comply with this requirement must demonstrate that the applicant either:

(A) received such medical education in a hospital or teaching institution sponsoring or participating in a program of graduate medical education accredited by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education, the American Osteopathic Association, or the Texas State Board of Medical Examiners in the same subject as the medical or osteopathic medical education if the hospital or teaching institution has an agreement with the applicant’s school; or

(B) is specialty board certified by a board approved by the Bureau of Osteopathic Specialists or the American Board of Medical Specialties.
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