What would you consider HIGH attrition if we did include the students who left before failing? (Assume of course that you will let me deduct the students that transfered to statesdie medical schools when I do the calculations?)

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Frank E. Wagner
Associate Dean, Student Affairs and Associate Professor of Behavioral Sciences
Ross University School of Medicine

Mitchdc If Ross was so concerned about giving people an opportunity, than why not give them the opportunity to pass the usmle? Sure these people might end up wasting their time if they don't pass, buts its their time and money to waste...are we sure that Ross is a good determiner of who can't pass anyway?? Take last semester as an example...All the people who failed did so based on Ross exams...not standardized board exams since we only had 1 shelf...how well do these exams predict our board scores..we all know that Tweedales exams cater to those who attend class, Dr. B's exams I don't think represent micro too well, and our Pharm final came straight from the pharm review...

Whether you want to admitt it or not Mitch, Ross is in this business for a profit. DeVry would not have spent 310 Million dollars just to help us unfortunate...they did so b/c they see how much money this school makes. I think Ross needs to worry a little less about money and a little more about its students.

I'll tell you what mitch...If I was a salesperson your door would be the first I would knock on though...I think a good salesperson could get you to buy into anything..just as Ross administration as convinced you how perfect Ross is.

As a parent of a student it amazes me at some of the things said on the forum. First you indicate that a test was geared to those who attend class. In my college days it was always beneficail to attend class. If all you had to do is read a book and memorize it it is silly to have colleges and teachers. It seems that those who complain the most are those that think the world owes them something. Life is not that easy. Hopefully you will graduate, become a doctor and realize what schools like Ross are all about : a place to achieve the dreams you were unable to acheive in the US.

Good luck

i think Dr ** calcs would be a bad judge, as that was over a period that is mainly 2 owners ago. yes, ross used to have a high fail rate. now, most attrition is due to just not being able to adjust to med school, dominica, whatever. my class began in sept of 99, and we had a very low fail rate. we did however have a high attrition rate. we lost 16 to transfers to stateside schools, we lost 3 to cancers(they didnt die, they just went home for treatment), we lost a few to transfers to carib schools(everyone that i know who tansfered to another carib school has yet to pass step 1,one of them even getting what according to the range for that year was the lowest score of the year, and i am now a resident...so i guess Ross was truely correct about them!). of our original 295, we graduated in the minimum time 165. yes, if including all factors, that sounds high. but actuall failures? no. we had one semester where we only had 3 fail. and i hate to break the news to some of the whiners, but I NEVER knew anyone who failed who didnt deserve to fail. if you dont knwo the material, you shoudnt move on. that is not to say these people didnt work hard or whatever, it just means they dont know the material. the statement of allowing everyone their shot at the USMLE is inappropriate. Ross exams are easy. if you cant hack em, you are going to get hammered on the USMLE!! this goes for the shelf at the end of 4th too. i felt that was a cakewalk compared to step 1. an addendum to the comment about ross letting everyone take step 1. yes, that would make ross look very bad, as their pass rate would plummet. but i dont hear anyone whining that US schools are bad as they didnt let you take step 1 either! Ross gives people the chance that US schools didnt, the chance to prove taht the US schools made a mistake. if you cant make it at Ross, then that is just proof that everyone back home was right about you, and Ross made a mistake for letting you in.

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One of the best things about Ross in particular (and Caribbean schools in general) is the relatively open admissions policy. It gives each individual the chance to prove to themselves (and others) whether or not they have what it takes to succeed in Medical school --without taking some admissions committee's word for it.

Your point is well taken about loans. It's a lot of money to pay off if you don't succeed (It's a lot of money to pay off if you do succeed). Still, it seems this is pretty much the only option some of us have if we want to pursue a medical education. I have to stop myself sometimes when I think of the irony of such a large group of intelligent people with a reasonable degree of finanacial wherewithal having to leave "the land of opportunity" to get an education.

I never understood the questionable assertion by some posters on this and previous boards that Ross purposely failed students so they could make more money. It just doesn't add up. "I want you to pay me money so I make you leave my school so you don't have to pay me money..." Anyway, it seems that a new Administration has lowered the attrition somewhat (so I have heard), so maybe things are better there.

Skepticism is good. Just remember that your point is (apparently) to become a Licensed Physician and not a Journeyman Skeptic.


Best of Luck!

Dr B is right. the problem is that many people are in denial, and dont accept their shortcomings, they just blame it on the school. and as researching guy said, Ross doesnt fail people to make money. they would be broke in no time if that were the case. but yes, the open admissions policy is there for the taking. i dont even think that ross should have to come out and say that yes, you may fail. you were rejected by all teh state schools, as they felt you couldnt make it. ross,a nd any other carib school is giving you the chance to prove them wrong. and believe me, its a great feeling when you interview someplace whose med school didnt accept you, and the residency director points out that you have board scores higher then what would have been your entire class there! but if you dont make it, its not the fault of the school. they gave you the shot. the fact taht so many make it through without any problems tells you that its not the fault of the program. the state schools where just probably right about you in the first place.

Why should people waste so much energy bickering over the attrition rate? While I admit that such statistics are interesting, the most important thing is the performance of the individual. As stated, caribbean schools let a lot of people in who should be considered "high risk". I was a high risk student, and I sure am glad that such an opportunity existed for me, otherwise I have no idea what I would be doing.

I suppose that the attrition rate that is published should include all of the students who leave the school, that is after all the definition. I also think it is reasonable to allow the statistics to be broken down into subcategories such as those leaving for academic reasons, personal reasons and transfers. The bottom line is that students want to know what the FAILURE rate is. As if the failure rate at any school could predict personal success.

My advice...be glad you have the opportunity to go to med school. Don't worry about what the next guy is doing, worry about yourself. Put all you can into what you are doing. Most of all, not everyone can handle medical school. Know your limitations, and get out early of you are one of those people. G

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AUC Class of '99
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