Kings County, NYC

[Chianti]

This is why I don't understand why people bash Wyckoff IM.

When I did it there, my group's attending, Dr. K. (head of allergy and immunology at Wyckoff) would have us present a case each after rounds. And then we would talk about that particular disorder and its treatment and management. So we basically had 2 hours of lecture with an amazing ATTENDING every day besides noon conference. Then in the afternoon I would follow the resident for a few hours. I would be home by 6 PM and would have all evening to study. Guess what, I learned IM really, really well. Sure, I didn't do any IVs, blood draws, or ABGS- but I learned those well when I did Ob-Gyn at Queens and SICU at Lutheran.

[Cuando2]

Originally Posted by Chianti

This is why I don't understand why people bash Wyckoff IM.

I didn't know Wyckoff IM was bashed repeatedly? I thought it was Wyckoff Surgery and Kings IM that were repeatedly bashed.

[Captainwada]

Originally Posted by Cuando2

From what I've gathered about Kings...its the place which will teach you how to do blood draws, its the place which will teach you how to transport patients from here to there, its the place which will teach you how to become calloused to verbal degredation. These are all the things nurses will have to deal with...in the end, this equates to things that have nothing to add to your career.

One thing that you WILL require when you are a resident is knowing your material and being able to survive pimping on the wards...since the quoted poster says there are scant lectures, I highly doubt this rotation will help you in this important aspect...which seems to make Kings somewhat useless aside from preparing you to be a nurse.

There are several other IM rotations to choose from with Ross which are far better than Kings. Rotations (and residency programs, for that matter) which are more "scutty" are less educational. "Scuttiness" and educationally rich are indirectly related to each other. More scut=less education. Less scut=more education.

by lectures, I was referring to boring monotonous lectures...instead we have more of pimping sessions...during rounds...

Oh...dun worry bout us...we get pimped plenty..to the point that we are in fear of being yelled at if we don't konw the answer...This is the verbal abuse I'm talking about....they yell at us when we don't know answers to why a pt is gettign this..or the side effects of their meds, or what are the complications of their illness..
In rounds we get pimped, and lecture we get pimped, and if your just caught walking in the wrong place....well you know.
The only scut we do is IV, ABGs, blood draws. There is NO transporting pts, cleaning beds, or wahtever else nurses do. And trust me..when your an intern.. you'll be wishing you learned how to do this stuff....don't come running to me for help...ahahah
More than half the students here scored higher than the US avg..on step 1...actually i know of 3 students RIGHT NOW who have above 230s..and thetom who is at 260...
the attendings keep us on our toes with pimping sessions day in and day out...so don't think this is a wycoff slackin rotation...or a scutted out rotation...but more of a pre-intern rotation

[LovinMiami]

you know its about time people started standing up for kings county... it definitely is not a glorified nurses training program. it takes hard work to get through, you learn both book knowledge (student lectures 4 days a week with attending giving comments and pimping throughout rounds everyday) and APPLICATION of that knowledge to real patients that you are taking care of. Yes you have to do scut work and the hours are long (80+ weeks), but you also MANAGE the patients, which from what i understand is exactly what you will be doing as a resident. I know that you do get yelled at, berated and sometimes fear even entering the conference room for the 52 side rounds... but come on you leave the county better then you came in. Full PEs, patient admit and discharges, medications, multitasking between consults, working the system to get your patients in line for imaging studies, scrubbing in on procedures that your patient undergoes... this is what the county is all about. you put up with the bad in order to get access to the good. The feeling of your input directly having effect on patient care as an MSIII is unbelievable.

if you dont want to go to Kings you dont have to but I do recommend people go there for internal medicine. its not easy, but many people have gotten through so there is no reason why you cant. you will be surprised by how you feel when you are done and how the confidence you built up in yourself and the knowledge you learnt seeps out into other aspects of your life.

One thing I can say negative about some students who complete the rotation is the so called Kings complex where people go on to other hospitals and try to act like after the 12 weeks they can tell other students what to do and know all there is to know about medicine. I have seen this in some students and think that it is ridiculous for anyone to behave in this manner. You go through Kings and learn medicine but do not think for a second you are better or smarter then anyone else who has had the rotation elsewhere.

[thethom]

Originally Posted by DrVinsk

You're on the money. Here's the real deal: Students who don't have any previous medical experience are still under the assumption that doctors do IV's, draw blood, place NG tubes, etc.., although it is necessary to learn these skills they are not generally done often by you, the attending. Most doctors can't hold a candle to a good nurse when it comes to IV's or phlebotomy. Unfortunately the Caribbean nurses give the nurses throughout the rest of the country a bad image as they tend to be quite lazy and down right rude. These poor students think that by running around getting lab reports, sticking IV's, drawing blood they are really acting like doctors....the hospital systems love to thrive on this misconception and work them to the bone. In all fairness, being that students are paying for their experience, they should be shadowing attendings and seeing exactly how decisions are made and following the course of treatment very closely while the nurses who are being well paid carry out the trivial duties of patient care. If attendings are sitting at the nurses station discussing patient care, it is absolutely absurd that the nurses sitting there eating their beef patties and scutting the students to run and get an xray or draw blood. This happens in many hospitals and it is just plain wrong. Most students don't say anything because they don't know any better and I really can't blame them. However it doesn't take long to learn the duties of a physician and what is important....drawing blood, doing IV's is for the nurses..maybe a week can be given to allow students to get a feel for the procedures....but then it needs to go back to the nurses. There are some terrible programs out there and they really need to be gutted and reformed. Basic Sciences can be taught anywhere, but rotations are a time where quality education needs to be a priority. Students being disrespected and abused is unacceptable. I hope more people will start to stand up for themselves and abolish this childish fraternity/hazing attitude that exists now. I apologize in advance to Jim and MitchDC....I know your experiences were fantastic and you never complained about making a bed or emptying bed pans. I admire that you were able to get all your cores done back to back and electives at Albert Einstein and Columbia. Cogratulations on your DERM match at Beverly Hills by the way........Now for the rest of you, good luck and remember...you deserve better.

LOL have you even rotated at Kings? If you did then you would know better than to say any med student has had to clean a bedpan or make a bed. If you did rotate here, and had to clean a bedpan then man, the nurses had you on one helluva short leash. In actuality, we do partake in direct patient care planning WITH the attendings. In fact, the information we present to them from our histories, physicals, and day to day interactions and interpretations of lab tests, imaging studies, and direct discussion with consults is VITAL to how they decide to manage the patient. As one gains experience in the rotation, it is expected that you as a med student will formulate your assesments and plans, run them by the attending, and the attending will add some things, subtract others, but for the most part, they will agree with your plan. I don't think nurses do that. If a patient spikes a fever, no I don't believe it is the nurse's idea to run blood cultures, urinalysis, and urine cultures, and order a chest X-***, CBC, and CMP...as a medical student this is something that we decide to do, and for good reason, as the fever workup is designed to cover several of the 6 W's of fever....so is this a nursing duty, i dont think so. Do the nurses call consults when necessary? Do nurses work directly with the consults to formulate a plan of care? Just saying, blood draws, ABGs, and IV's are but a small part of the king's county experience. You must learn to WORK UP a patient, work with consults, and learn what lab tests are necessary and when they are appropriate. As for learning diseases and treatments, you should already have a basic understanding of these from your step 1, and thus it is more important to get more acquainted with how these diagnoses and treatments are carried out in an inpatient setting. Direct pressure from the attendings can be stressful, however tongue lashings are not without reason, as it is imperative that the information presented to the attendings is ACCURATE and complete, because it will have a direct impact on the LIFE of your patient. And how many of you in other IM rotations can say that you actaully RAN codes and/or participated in them?

Our daily progress notes are put IN the patient's chart, and can serve as legal documents, so it is imperative that they be accurate, and discussed/countersigned by an attending. The information in them is NOT something a student who fulfils only nursing duties would be aware of...

...please be sure of things before you post them on valueMD vinsk or anyone else who posts inaccurate information on valuemd, as new students read this information and take it seriously. I never ever thought I would be defending kings county IM, but now that I have one more day and night left in this rotation, I can honestly look back and say it was worth the hard work. I challenge anyone who thinks they got more experience in patient care as a "graduate" of kings IM...

[DrVinsk]

Funny how so many people come crying and whining about the program there but when someone calls you on it..........it becomes the best program around. Unfortunately, I have not been impressed with students coming out of Kings County....they didn't have any more development in patient care than those who had done slacker rotations. If you don't think IV's are a nurses job then you are very naive. Trust me, I've been doing IV's and all those other procedures you seem to think are hi-tech for many,many years...I won't be coming to you for any help but I'll be more than happy to make you do them since you feel so advanced in doing so. Remember, you are there to learn how to be Physician, not an intern. Being an intern is not your final goal. When I hear an entire group of students who came from Kings County say nothing good about the program, read numerous posts about its abuse, I can't place too much weight on some gunner student who has no experience at all. I admire your attitude, but just as you didn't appreciate my assumptions on Kings County you shouldn't make assumptions on my background. I am way ahead of you young'un. I am not the one you need to be preaching to. Trust me when I tell you I did another rotation with 8 students all from the same rotation at Kings County and not ONE of them had the comments that you have regarding the rotation. That certainly gives me some justification to stand up for students who feel the rotation was horrible and, just because you're a real Florence Nightingale doesn't mean you have to be snyde towards anyone who attempts to address a matter with obvious merit. I'm glad you fell in love with Kings County, but either tell your buddies to stop dialing whine-1-1, or realize you're an exception to the rule.

These comments are soley for entertainment purposes and do not reflect the views of the moderators or subscibers. Any resemblance to real life persons or events is purely coincidental and may not be held for consequences. Any offensive remarks are unintentional and should be held without ill regard. Thank you.

[garymoesr]

Anybody do other rotations here?

[onmyway]

The whole King's County thing has become an urban legend. It is a great experience for some but an awful one for others. Sounds fairly typical of many sites. I do get a little sick of hearing how it is the "best" place to do IM. Talk to the lucky few who did it at St. Mary's in CT or at Harbor or PG Hospital in Maryland...now that's learning mixed with respect and camaraderie. Actually there is a guy doing electives at the latter who did his IM at King's and whines all the time how he wishes he had done it at PGH.

[DrVinsk]

Beautiful onmyway, beautiful. Enough said......that ends that discussion.

[thethom]

Originally Posted by DrVinsk

Funny how so many people come crying and whining about the program there but when someone calls you on it..........it becomes the best program around. Unfortunately, I have not been impressed with students coming out of Kings County....they didn't have any more development in patient care than those who had done slacker rotations. If you don't think IV's are a nurses job then you are very naive. Trust me, I've been doing IV's and all those other procedures you seem to think are hi-tech for many,many years...I won't be coming to you for any help but I'll be more than happy to make you do them since you feel so advanced in doing so. Remember, you are there to learn how to be Physician, not an intern. Being an intern is not your final goal. When I hear an entire group of students who came from Kings County say nothing good about the program, read numerous posts about its abuse, I can't place too much weight on some gunner student who has no experience at all. I admire your attitude, but just as you didn't appreciate my assumptions on Kings County you shouldn't make assumptions on my background. I am way ahead of you young'un. I am not the one you need to be preaching to. Trust me when I tell you I did another rotation with 8 students all from the same rotation at Kings County and not ONE of them had the comments that you have regarding the rotation. That certainly gives me some justification to stand up for students who feel the rotation was horrible and, just because you're a real Florence Nightingale doesn't mean you have to be snyde towards anyone who attempts to address a matter with obvious merit. I'm glad you fell in love with Kings County, but either tell your buddies to stop dialing whine-1-1, or realize you're an exception to the rule.

These comments are soley for entertainment purposes and do not reflect the views of the moderators or subscibers. Any resemblance to real life persons or events is purely coincidental and may not be held for consequences. Any offensive remarks are unintentional and should be held without ill regard. Thank you.

Please show me one occasion where I complained about King's County, said that IV's were "high tech", or even hinted that doing IVs and bloodwork were a significant benefit of the rotation. I do believe I said that it is "but a small part" of the rotation. Oh and I have made no assumptions on your background, I simply asked had you rotated there, and then added a modifier to address if you had... For all I know you could be the chief of surgery at Mass. General Hosp... I have spoken with several "graduates" of the kings rotation, with experience in other rotations, and all so far have told me how much less stimulating their other rotations have been, and how much less responsibility was given to students. And yes an entire "class" has had this opinion. But yeah, what onmyway says is true...you either love it or hate it, and one cannot bear judgement on someone for their opinion, as we are all entitled to it.


PS: Florence Nightingale? LOL