Kings County, NYC

[Sara123456]

Hi,

I have read both pros and cons about IM at Kings. Can someone who has experienced the rotation first hand let me know whether the teaching at Kings is soley procedural or is the foundation that is necessary for Step 2 taught at the hospital?

Thanks!

[Truthteller]

Not great.. poor quality of lectures generally, not a whole lot of patient contact. You spend a lot of the day sitting in a room chatting with one of the attendings.. and he will be offended if you try to study/read to get something useful done.. go figure. Also.. beware of getting assigned to the Kids unit - great if you want to go into child psych, but otherwise you see a very limited psych population and the hours are much much longer.

[Captainwada]

I am currently doing IM at Kings and it is NOT for the avg med student....they work us like dogs and verbally degrade us without fail...but you learn.
Lectures are rare, but when there is a topic, they do thoroughly prepare us for boards.
Think twice about this one...If you have determination and can put up with verbal abuse & 80+ hrs/wk....then this might be for you as you do LEARN how to manage pts on your own which will DEFINITELY come in handy come residency or future rotations...if not..go somewhere else cuz it is NO JOKE.

[thethom]

I have 2.5 weeks left at Kings Internal medicine core. I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I will prob write a report once I finish, but I will tell you all now, I couldn't have picked a better first rotation. If you wanna learn and are willing to put a lot into it, Kings is for you..

[gobonkers]

A student told me of a current legal issue with the attendings and the administration regarding the use of students instead of residents to run the ward?
Is it true that students work over 80 hours per week and can get fired or downgraded for being the "wrong type"?
GS

[MedChe]

had a friend that did kings...and said it best..."its a glorified nursing position"

[DrVinsk]

You're on the money. Here's the real deal: Students who don't have any previous medical experience are still under the assumption that doctors do IV's, draw blood, place NG tubes, etc.., although it is necessary to learn these skills they are not generally done often by you, the attending. Most doctors can't hold a candle to a good nurse when it comes to IV's or phlebotomy. Unfortunately the Caribbean nurses give the nurses throughout the rest of the country a bad image as they tend to be quite lazy and down right rude. These poor students think that by running around getting lab reports, sticking IV's, drawing blood they are really acting like doctors....the hospital systems love to thrive on this misconception and work them to the bone. In all fairness, being that students are paying for their experience, they should be shadowing attendings and seeing exactly how decisions are made and following the course of treatment very closely while the nurses who are being well paid carry out the trivial duties of patient care. If attendings are sitting at the nurses station discussing patient care, it is absolutely absurd that the nurses sitting there eating their beef patties and scutting the students to run and get an xray or draw blood. This happens in many hospitals and it is just plain wrong. Most students don't say anything because they don't know any better and I really can't blame them. However it doesn't take long to learn the duties of a physician and what is important....drawing blood, doing IV's is for the nurses..maybe a week can be given to allow students to get a feel for the procedures....but then it needs to go back to the nurses. There are some terrible programs out there and they really need to be gutted and reformed. Basic Sciences can be taught anywhere, but rotations are a time where quality education needs to be a priority. Students being disrespected and abused is unacceptable. I hope more people will start to stand up for themselves and abolish this childish fraternity/hazing attitude that exists now. I apologize in advance to Jim and MitchDC....I know your experiences were fantastic and you never complained about making a bed or emptying bed pans. I admire that you were able to get all your cores done back to back and electives at Albert Einstein and Columbia. Cogratulations on your DERM match at Beverly Hills by the way........Now for the rest of you, good luck and remember...you deserve better.

[Cuando2]

Originally Posted by Captainwada

I am currently doing IM at Kings and it is NOT for the avg med student....they work us like dogs and verbally degrade us without fail...but you learn.
Lectures are rare, but when there is a topic, they do thoroughly prepare us for boards.
Think twice about this one...If you have determination and can put up with verbal abuse & 80+ hrs/wk....then this might be for you as you do LEARN how to manage pts on your own which will DEFINITELY come in handy come residency or future rotations...if not..go somewhere else cuz it is NO JOKE.

From what I've gathered about Kings...its the place which will teach you how to do blood draws, its the place which will teach you how to transport patients from here to there, its the place which will teach you how to become calloused to verbal degredation. These are all the things nurses will have to deal with...in the end, this equates to things that have nothing to add to your career.

One thing that you WILL require when you are a resident is knowing your material and being able to survive pimping on the wards...since the quoted poster says there are scant lectures, I highly doubt this rotation will help you in this important aspect...which seems to make Kings somewhat useless aside from preparing you to be a nurse.

There are several other IM rotations to choose from with Ross which are far better than Kings. Rotations (and residency programs, for that matter) which are more "scutty" are less educational. "Scuttiness" and educationally rich are indirectly related to each other. More scut=less education. Less scut=more education.

[Cuando2]

Originally Posted by DrVinsk

You're on the money. Here's the real deal: Students who don't have any previous medical experience are still under the assumption that doctors do IV's, draw blood, place NG tubes, etc.., although it is necessary to learn these skills they are not generally done often by you, the attending. Most doctors can't hold a candle to a good nurse when it comes to IV's or phlebotomy. Unfortunately the Caribbean nurses give the nurses throughout the rest of the country a bad image as they tend to be quite lazy and down right rude. These poor students think that by running around getting lab reports, sticking IV's, drawing blood they are really acting like doctors....the hospital systems love to thrive on this misconception and work them to the bone. In all fairness, being that students are paying for their experience, they should be shadowing attendings and seeing exactly how decisions are made and following the course of treatment very closely while the nurses who are being well paid carry out the trivial duties of patient care. If attendings are sitting at the nurses station discussing patient care, it is absolutely absurd that the nurses sitting there eating their beef patties and scutting the students to run and get an xray or draw blood. This happens in many hospitals and it is just plain wrong. Most students don't say anything because they don't know any better and I really can't blame them. However it doesn't take long to learn the duties of a physician and what is important....drawing blood, doing IV's is for the nurses..maybe a week can be given to allow students to get a feel for the procedures....but then it needs to go back to the nurses. There are some terrible programs out there and they really need to be gutted and reformed. Basic Sciences can be taught anywhere, but rotations are a time where quality education needs to be a priority. Students being disrespected and abused is unacceptable. I hope more people will start to stand up for themselves and abolish this childish fraternity/hazing attitude that exists now. I apologize in advance to Jim and MitchDC....I know your experiences were fantastic and you never complained about making a bed or emptying bed pans. I admire that you were able to get all your cores done back to back and electives at Albert Einstein and Columbia. Cogratulations on your DERM match at Beverly Hills by the way........Now for the rest of you, good luck and remember...you deserve better.

I read this post after formulating my own post, and come to agree with most of what this poster says regarding the nurses issue and learning menial tasks that do nothing for a med student. And I thought *** matched into *** at a community program due to ***? I also believe *** (who is far more experienced) had matched a few years ago at a great program and is doing quite well in practice...but I am unsure of his specialty...

[DrVinsk]

Thanks Cuando,

I don't really know the current position of either MDC or Jim. I definitely hold more weight to what Jim says over MDC....I just poked a little fun at him/her because of previous Ross defense that was a little overboard. I'm curious to see what students will say when they defend programs such as King's County. There will be some ballyhooing student who will say, 'It builds character' or 'prepares you for residency'..blah, blah. I would like to find these students 10 years later and ask them as attendings how many IV's, blood draws and NG tubes they have done..or for that matter...even knowing where the lab is in the hospital! Oh well...each one of them will see the light and hopefully treat any students they come across with a little more dignity than they received.