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  1. #1
    DoctorJ is offline Junior Member
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    Primary Care MD Salary?

    How much money does an internist or a family doc make in primary care? Relatively speaking?

    I'm interested in getting a N.D. (doctor of naturalpathic medicine) degree after my residency. These schools will take me into their program with advance standing if I hold a license to practice allopathic medicine.

    N.Ds from 5-6 schools are eligibe to practice in California after passing the board exam and they make $200/HR and see avg. 10 pts per day.

    I'm wondering if say setting up a shop in a nice place (Beverly Hills/Boca Raton) and accept only cash from wealthy people.

    Not a lof of overheads too coz you prob don't need assistants. And I guess you can incorporate allopathic medicine for acute cases by prescribing drugs...etc.

    What do you guys think?

  2. #11
    FLK's Avatar
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    FLK is offline Temporarily Banned
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    Really....

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    Quote Originally Posted by prsch132
    Wow...I bet alot of people mistake you for God! If your "medicine" is so "safe" then why is this????

    http://www.delpshopepage.org/Is%20US...he%20World.pdf


    106,000 DEATHS PER YEAR FROM PROPERLY GIVEN MEDICINE! Wow! Medicine at its best! Perfect Medicine!
    well the data on page one is terribly flawed, but I am sick of explaining this. you can research it if you are interested in learning why these statistics are grossly misleading.

    remember : there are lies, damned lies, and statistics

    delphshopeages.com.....now that's a good source.
    What do they sell?

    if a population of people live to 90 ( call them polulation A )
    population B lives to 40

    is it fair to say that population A has an epidemic of osteoporosis since it is 100 times more common than population B?


    These "anti-modern medicine" KOOKS need to step into a time machine and go back 100 years, when a simple cut and wound infection could be fatal.

    ever see polio? How about diphtheria? Not fun.

    go to Russia, where they are practicing real all natural medicine, and you can see it first hand.

    ....or you can take some 40X goose crap extract and wait for the placebo effect to kick in....and only 49 dollars a bottle

  3. #12
    pitman is offline Senior Member 510 points
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    Really....

    Quote Originally Posted by FLK
    Quote Originally Posted by prsch132
    Wow...I bet alot of people mistake you for God! If your "medicine" is so "safe" then why is this????

    http://www.delpshopepage.org/Is%20US...he%20World.pdf


    106,000 DEATHS PER YEAR FROM PROPERLY GIVEN MEDICINE! Wow! Medicine at its best! Perfect Medicine!
    well the data on page one is terribly flawed, but I am sick of explaining this. you can research it if you are interested in learning why these statistics are grossly misleading.

    remember : there are lies, damned lies, and statistics

    delphshopeages.com.....now that's a good source.
    What do they sell?

    if a population of people live to 90 ( call them polulation A )
    population B lives to 40

    is it fair to say that population A has an epidemic of osteoporosis since it is 100 times more common than population B?


    These "anti-modern medicine" KOOKS need to step into a time machine and go back 100 years, when a simple cut and wound infection could be fatal.

    ever see polio? How about diphtheria? Not fun.

    go to Russia, where they are practicing real all natural medicine, and you can see it first hand.

    ....or you can take some 40X goose crap extract and wait for the placebo effect to kick in....and only 49 dollars a bottle
    Not to mention another fundamental flaw in that sort of anti-allopathic thinking -- since there is no 'control' to compare numbers of deaths, or numbers of lives saved, between the "approaches" to medicine, you have to ask yourself...does it make more sense to opt for treatment that has scientific backing (controlled studies, comparisons with placebos, risk assessment, etc.), or one that has only anecdotes? FDA, for example, is not "perfect", but ephedra would NEVER have made it through that EBM filter (were it not for DSHEA, burdening the FDA to prove lack of safety before action could finally be taken against it!).

    -pitman

  4. #13
    Miklos is offline Elite Member 511 points
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    California

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorJ
    I mean, if California is so tough on IMGs and they've approved and accredited these schools and curriculums, should that say something about the recognition of the ND specialty and the demands on the people?
    That's non-sense.

    The NP's are not accredited by the California Med Board. The Board accredits allopathic physicians, physician assistants, research psychoanalysts as well as registered dispensing opticians, spectacle lens dispensers, contact lens dispensers, and licensed midwives. See http://www.medbd.ca.gov/

    I do not know who accredits NPs, but I can assure you that it is not the Med Board.

  5. #14
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    teratos is offline Jedi Moderator 658 points
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    Saftey

    In real medicine we reasarch new treatments as thorougly as possible. Sometimes there are errors, as in Fen-phen, but that is a limitation of the study. The sample size couldn't have been large enough to pick up on the heart valve issue. We do our best. There are still problems.

    Also, allergic and adverse reactions are almost impossible to predict. I can't just have people move into my house and watch them with a crash cart by my side. These side effects of meds are documanted, but you can't avoid them. Look at some common drugs. Aspirin, you run the risk of catasrophic gastrointestinal bleeding. Acetominophen better known as tylenol...very hepatotoxic (that means your liver). takes about 7 times the recommended dose of extra strength tylenol to kill you....no joke. Dextromethorphan...main ingredient in Robitussin DM. Works on the same pathways as PCP and Ketamine. Take too much and you dissociate and jump out a window. Penicillin, can an anaphulactic reaction, impossible to predict in a person who has never taken PCN. Even used correctly, these drugs cause problems. So, take them off the market?? Yeah, how many people will die each year WITHOUT antibiotics?? You are very smart. What makes naturopathic medicine so safe, smart guy?? You don't test the medicine, don't do randomized trials to quantify side-effects, efficacy or anything else. Boy, that sounds safe. Yeah, some old Chinese guy said it was good, so it MUST be safe. Also, the drugs (yes, drugs) in the plants used do work, and have the same side effect profile as their pharmaceutical analogues. May even be worse due to lack of standardization, and unknown adulterants contained in the preparations. SO, how many deaths are caused by naturopaths. Guess what, nobody knows. Know why???? Cause it isn't regulated. So you can post some dumb statistic. Tell me I'm playing god, but you haven't proven any points.

    I don't want to play god, I want to do the best for the patient. I don't think therapy that is not studied is the way to do that. If we have 106,000 deaths per year from NON-ERROR related medication administration, medicines that are pure, standardized, and regulated, what do you think the stats would be if such a large population took unstandardizd, untested and unregulated drugs????? Yeah, great idea. Luckily, most people in the country are smarter than that. G
    AUC Class of '99
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    Some say I look like Buzz Lightyear....
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    DISCLAIMER: I have no financial stake in ValueMD, or any medical school.

  6. #15
    teratos's Avatar
    teratos is offline Jedi Moderator 658 points
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    DoctorJ and Jim

    Yes, 150K is NET, after all the other stuff is deducted. You still need to pay income taxes, but Uncle sam is the last person in line. Chief resident is nice if you are applying for fellowships, and it is always good to put on your CV. Usually the Chief has worked hard, and shown good leadership skills. I joined an established group. My "boss" doesn't tell me what to do, he just takes care of the adminstrative stuff. I just see patietns. I love the arrangement.
    Stay away from Naturopathy. If someone gets hurt from an unproven, untested treatment you prescribed don't think the courts will make a distinction between your allopathic and naturopathic training. They will still nail you to a wall, and may revoke your license, depending on the offense. There are a lot of chronic conditions that are not effectively treated, you are right, but none of the naturopathic remedies have been shown to be effective either. They don't do trials.


    Jim, I think hopsitalist vs. outpatient depends on what you want to do. You will have exposure to both in residency, so do what you like more. The money is about the same either way, and the lifestyle varies with each situation. Neither is a bad choice. G
    AUC Class of '99
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    I may be a jerk, but I'm a Jedi jerk like my father.

    Some say I look like Buzz Lightyear....
    (They're right)

    DISCLAIMER: I have no financial stake in ValueMD, or any medical school.

  7. #16
    prsch132 is offline Junior Member
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    response

    Actually, the article is not anti-medicine, It was written by a MD and was taken from the Journal of the American Medical Assiciation (JAMA). It was written by an MD, for MDs....but it makes sense that you all would say.......it was a bunch of crap from a anti-medicine web page........none of the "elite" would write like that....

  8. #17
    teratos's Avatar
    teratos is offline Jedi Moderator 658 points
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    Nope

    I never said it was a bunch of crap, but you have to be leary of statistics. In the article, what consitutues a death from medication administration???

    My main question is...what would the death toll be from Naturopathic treatment?? In a system where we try to minimize ill effects from treatments, we still have >100,000 deaths per year. What about when we look at a system where few of the treatments are tested and we have no knowldge about the side effect profiles, teratogenesis etc.?

    You can spew stuff about "elitism", but you can't answer the question. Nobody can. There is no data.

    Medicine is no longer about holding the patients hand. It is about applying the data about treatments for their condition, and picking a treatment that is most effective, and least harmful. You need evidence to back up what you are doing. g
    AUC Class of '99
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    I may be a jerk, but I'm a Jedi jerk like my father.

    Some say I look like Buzz Lightyear....
    (They're right)

    DISCLAIMER: I have no financial stake in ValueMD, or any medical school.

  9. #18
    prsch132 is offline Junior Member
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    well...

    Well, according to the article, as much as 225,000 people die from going to the doctor every year. You say that is an under-estimate. They believe they are 10% low. Anyway.... 225,000 deaths a year is 1 per 1,000 people. That is people who might have not died otherwise if they stepped into the hospital. I find it very hard to believe that NDs are actually going to lead to the death of 1/1000 people by what they do OR fail to do. I am no ND, but I think they are A PART OF HEALTHCARE.......not an "unproven" field of quacks. You really should consider them a value to you, as they do you......instead of competition. Most things they administer come from the same place your drugs do, and sure you may think that sounds "dangerous"....but they have studied the dosage, effects, ect of what they are giving, just like you and your drugs.

    If you want to see where that article came from, go to google.com and search for "106,000 deaths" .....you might be suprised about the results.

  10. #19
    Miklos is offline Elite Member 511 points
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    Every medical intervention entails a risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by prsch132
    Well, according to the article, as much as 225,000 people die from going to the doctor every year. You say that is an under-estimate. They believe they are 10% low. Anyway.... 225,000 deaths a year is 1 per 1,000 people. That is people who might have not died otherwise if they stepped into the hospital. I find it very hard to believe that NDs are actually going to lead to the death of 1/1000 people by what they do OR fail to do. I am no ND, but I think they are A PART OF HEALTHCARE.......not an "unproven" field of quacks. You really should consider them a value to you, as they do you......instead of competition. Most things they administer come from the same place your drugs do, and sure you may think that sounds "dangerous"....but they have studied the dosage, effects, ect of what they are giving, just like you and your drugs.

    If you want to see where that article came from, go to google.com and search for "106,000 deaths" .....you might be suprised about the results.
    Every medical intervention entails a risk. Which is more riskfilled? The trip to the MD or the one to the "naturopath"?

  11. #20
    DoctorJ is offline Junior Member
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    California

    Quote Originally Posted by Miklos
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorJ
    I mean, if California is so tough on IMGs and they've approved and accredited these schools and curriculums, should that say something about the recognition of the ND specialty and the demands on the people?
    That's non-sense.

    The NP's are not accredited by the California Med Board. The Board accredits allopathic physicians, physician assistants, research psychoanalysts as well as registered dispensing opticians, spectacle lens dispensers, contact lens dispensers, and licensed midwives. See http://www.medbd.ca.gov/

    I do not know who accredits NPs, but I can assure you that it is not the Med Board.

    They're NDs not NPs. They are allowed to dx and rx pts and can work as a primary care physicians in Calif and can referred pts to specialists. $200/hr or $100/30 min depending on what the pts feel comfortable. But first timer always require an hour.

    I'm not sure if I'd do it later but it's certainly an option depending on "public demand"

    Check this site out.

    http://www.aanmc.org/adm_lic/doctors_act.php

    It's approved and accredited in California and if the graduates pass a national licensing exam they will be licensed in California.

    This is a NEW law which takes effect Jan 1, 2004.

    I think it's stupid for the FDA to banned ephedra or ma huang. It's pretty sad b/c it has been used in Asia by oriental doctors for centuries. The stupid pharmaceutical companies or vitamin companies just took advantage of it. In oriental medicine, NO ONE ever used it or prescribed it for weight loss. So sad for people who need it legitimately. Why don't they ban Dong Qui and Ginseng too then.

    Hopefully with licensure to these NDs, some herbal stuff can be regulated and only can be prescribed by trained professionals.

    I know a lot of MDs are not happy with the emegency of this "new" profession. Wasn't it like this when the philosophy of DOs began in the 1800s? Then the DCs and DPMs??

    I don't know if naturalpathy works really. But personally I've seen a lot of pts who take these kind of stuff after their MDs pronounce them incurable with death eminent and some of these pts are still living after 10 yrs.

    Depending on where you are, Calif has becoming pretty open-minded. Lots of oriental medical schools have opened here and UCLA has a western/oriental medicine training course for MDs.

    So there are definitelyopportunities......

    Just my 0.02.

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