I am very curious as to the intentions and credibility numerous self appointed comsumer advocates that have been posting on this website. I would like to begin an open discussion here...as it seems that people's personal agendas are hijacking this website and diluting its original mission and purpose...which was to assist people with making informed decisions pertaining to foreign medical education. Every one is entitled to opinion..the ability to express your thoughts and beliefs are the corner stone of freedom of speech.

However, the problem I am seeing here is that people often present their opinions as fact. Again, I do not want this thread to turn into personal attacks. It is intended for the purpose of starting an open discussion with Azsckeptic and many of the other self appointed advocates that are everywhere in every thread here on value MD

To Azskeptic,all the self appointed advocates,and consumer crusaders that post here.....This is not a personal attack.

I am simply curious as to what your intentions are on this website. For instance, what is the purpose other than self-promotion when you post links directing people to your crusading website – devoted to dismantling the very schools they hope to one day graduate from. What is the reason for a former posting that included aerial maps of the location St. Christopher’s school of Medicine. This school (St. Christopher's) obviously exists. Based on the feed back from the numerous students that post on this site, the Luton location is a bit more than a rented retail/office space, as I think you were trying to imply.

I can tell by the vast volume of your posts that you seem concerned for these medical students. It seems that you and other self-appointed advocates are trying to present accurate information to help them make informed decisions. Yet at the same time you hurt the very people you claim to want to help. Your actions are quite contradictory.

Your posts "seem" to indicate that you believe that students that attend certain select foreign medical schools are intellectually inferior. I am not certain if you truly believe that these students are not as intellectually capable as traditional US students...but many of your posts imply/infer that you believe that students who attend the off-shore schools are less academically capable. You try to offer concise information to help them with their educational process...by offering advice as to what schools "you believe" are acceptable for them to attend... There appear to be certain schools you highly recommend, then it seems as if you pick one or two schools to place in your "crusading cross-hairs". Upon doing this you seem to try to do everything possible to damage the school’s reputation/credibility....This behavior makes one wonder if you some how have a vested interest or connection with the "big 4 foreign medical schools". Why else would you be desperately trying to close these other schools?! Your efforts to "bring down these schools" ultimately impacts innocent people trying to pursue a dream. If a school truly is a menace to global society it deserves to be closed! However, if you choose to create the illusion/image that the school is a potential risk to future patients this is neither ethical nor appropriate!

Many people choose the off-shore route for various reasons: financial, location, non-traditional student (older), not wanting to wait 2 years to get accepted to an American school, etc. These people are not necessarily choosing these schools because they could not gain acceptance to an LCME approved school (or one approved by you). For instance, Chicago Med (formerly Finch School of Medicine) is approximately $36,000 an academic year – this does not include living expenses. Many students have gone into deep debt for undergraduate studies and simply cannot afford another $100K for education. These students are adequately and academically prepared for medical school. In fact many are considered exceptional students. The existence of foreign medical schools makes their dreams of becoming a physician possible by offering lower tuition. Which I am summizing you some how equate with a lower quality of education?! To these students it is the opportunity to keep their dream alive. Many of these foreign schools attract semi-retired professors from very reputable institutions. These professors teach at these schools for the chance to earn some "tax free money" and enjoy a slower pace of life... The majority of the profs at these schools are not academic failures or hiding from "skeletons" in their proverbial closets like some of your posts indicate...Sorry, I am using broad generalizations here about your posts. But, they definitely are too numerous to reference each one individually...

There are innumerable postings by you on this site about "bad doctors" that graduate from foreign medical schools. These articles insult the very people you are supposedly trying to help. It "seems" that you are telling these medical students (indirectly) that once they graduate from a foreign medical school you will consider them no better than the doctors in the articles you post or that they will become "public enemy number one"-.that they will be intellectually inferior, less skilled, and probably felons. The majority of people enrolled at foreign medical schools are not criminals, they are not intellectual midgets, and care so much about becoming a physician that they are willing to sacrifice more than their LCME counter-parts. To me this translates into more passion and compassion for the art & science of medicine, and means that these future doctors may have a better bedside manner and true concern for their patient's well being. Why? Because, they have the desire and the will. They will have had to sacrifice/endure so much along the way in order to achieve their goal.

So, I guess my long winded point here is..why do you offer advice on one hand..stating that you are trying to assist these future physicians..but then on the other you actively try to destroy their dreams by deliberately causing conflict for their schools - even trying to close them down...and also indirectly implying that once they graduate from these schools that they will some how be an insult/blight on the global medical profession?

You have a right to voice your opinion. You have a right to be an informed consumer. However, you really have no right to take actions that will deliberately cause these innocent people/students harm. Why do you feel it is necessary to partake in "crusades" that will ultimately destroy a person's life dream?

This is not a personal attack, as I stated in the beginning of this address. I’m just curious about your true intentions regarding these students/future physicians.

i think if you've been around here long enough you'd find that az has an interest in this topic (ill leave it to him to explain how it got there) and that he merely has developed it in a rather remarkable way with regard to the information and contacts he has. He has never come across in my view as on a "crusade" to destroy IMG schools, but rather to hold them accountable to quality to the students and the patients they hope to treat. Remember: you dont have any entitlement to be a doctor. You must earn it. Part of that means by being accepted to and going through a qualified and decent school. I have absoltely no problem with the notion that a school must meet some rigerous standards, and so too the folks who graduate from them. If problems arise int he future because of scrutiny, this is as much the fault of these offshore schools for not creating their own standards (and proliferating like zits) and waiting until this late in the game (when negative articles are appearing in the press) to deal with questionable places. Its also the fault of the US government for not allowing some accreditation body to place standards (akin to the LCME). Its the dark side of the american character to think that one's desires are tatmount to a right. We have to earn some things, like the trust to be allowed to take care of patinets; and so too do the school have to prove their worth.

MOving to the lounge.

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Steph
If you get a warning, put on yer manpants and stop whining about it.

"and proliferating like zits" - Steph you're so gross, lol.

I totally agree with Steph's post. If AZ has a motive, it has to do with overal protection of innocent people, whether they are future patients or consumer's of an education. Does AZ's work feel like an attack? If you feel threatened or angered by what AZ does or posts, ask yourself why.

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Moderator - Spouses and Partners

I think az is expressing their opinion. everyone is entitled to one and you are entitled to IGNORE anyone elses opinion if you don't like it. Don't take offense to anything said on these forums. If someone's dreams are crushed by something said on these forums...well that's just plain stupid.

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I just hate stupid people. They should have to wear signs that say I'm stupid. That way, you wouldn't rely on them would you. You wouldn't ask them anything. It'd be like, "excuse me...oops, nevermind, I didn't see your sign."

I appreciated a lot of what A.P. said about these forums. I'm fairly new here and not well versed in some of the more arcane disputes. However the amount of inter-member flaming and the " St.Mungo's sucks" or " St. Gallstones are a bunch of *****" approach is irritating and sadly very counterproductive. I have good reason to say this. I first logged on here in late 2004 and saw a lot of bad press about the school I had just started. However, I made a judgement, there being so little factual content and so much puerile rubbish, that I should ignore it. I was wrong: there was a lot that "sucked" about the school. If only there had been more reasoned and detailed critiques around I'm certain I would have taken the warnings more seriously. There are some helpful posts here, but frankly they are swamped by the unhelpful.

Diogenes, that is probably one of the most useful posts here ever. You hit the nail on the head. I am also forwarding a copy to Congress, the White House, both the Democratic National Party and the GOP, to Israel and the Arab nations, The protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, and to several couples I know.

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Steph
If you get a warning, put on yer manpants and stop whining about it.

I am not certain as to what the intent of the above response actually is..At the risk of appearing ignorant, I dont get it. If it is meant seriously that is fine. I wish I could truly appreciate its application here. However, it appears to be a bit on the sarcastic side. If I am wrong a I apologize.

Perhaps, if it is intended in the sarcastic vien that it appears..it is a perfect example of how this site has deteriorated. Reinforcing Diogenes opinion on how it is difficult to view the helpful posts amongst the bogus. Especially, when a reply such as this is given to someone that apparently was trying to express their own experience with the posts on this site...and how misinformation can cloud/impede rational judgement!

Steph was being serious (I think). I think it was a great post. There may be a lot of real negativity on some of the fora, but what lies beneath it? Do you see a bunch of people on the fora of some of the more established schools involved in long threads about all the problems of the schools? You don't. There is an old adage: "where there is smoke, there is fire". Although people's opinions aren't always presented in the most professional way, when there is a lot of controversy about something, you really ought to look into WHY there is so much controversy. You may find that underneath all of the **, there is a good reason for it. G

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AUC Class of '99
Bored certified
I may be a jerk, but I'm a Jedi jerk like my father.

Some say I look like Buzz Lightyear....
(They're right)

DISCLAIMER: I have no financial stake in ValueMD, or any medical school.

I agree with you. You will have seen from my post how dismissing it all as ** cost me. Interestingly, I know that the school concerned was also able to dismiss the forum as the rantings of a few failed students and I believe that other students accepted that view. What a shame that the forum fails those it wants to help through a lack of cool moderation. A couple of further thoughts:

• The school in question has had an awful press. Yet current students are not complaining here very much at all. Is this because all is ok now? Or do they need time to come to their senses? Or, as I suspect, despite use of aliases people are afraid of being too specific lest they are easily identified by the school management.
• I wish there was some way we could all work together to build up a solid and much needed resource which would really give people reliable info. and hopefully work towards rooting out the real sharks basking in the carib. sea.
• I'm personally fed up with the knee-jerk reactions on this site to all forms of distance-learning . I know there are real concerns, but there are even senior academics out there who do believe it has useful future (I am aware though that there are practical licensure probs. in the U.S.). I'd actually like to see a new forum specially for all d-learning students.

Thanks for your patience in reading this newbie's grumbles.