Thread: police shoot handcuffed, face down man in the back and he dies

Yahoo!

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I can think of about 50 million scenarios why this is bad both for a citizen/suspect and the officer. wow

Yup, it's beyond a mess six ways from Sunday.

what the???

This is outrageous.......

there is no excuse that can justify what happened, or that can change the fact that a police officer drew his gun and shot and killed a man who was subdued. the argument that he was trying to draw his taser is completely nonsense, the weight difference in the weapons is significant (with the taser Chop posted weighing 18oz and a 9mm being 2-3x that). i am guessing someone in PR quickly devised this excuse to spin spin spin.

It is entirely possible that it was made up for PR. But to say it is nonsense is simply false. I have personally witnessed a trained officer draw and fire a taser in practice while meaning to draw and fire his service pistol. If that is possible and is demonstrated to be so, then certainly the reverse is possible and even more so under stress in the field. At that time the guy I saw had only recently been introduced to the taser but was a veteran officer with years of experience carrying and firing his sidearm.

In addition, I have personally witnessed three accidental discharges by trained people. Two in practice, and one inside a livingroom. None of those injured anybody thankfully.

I am not offering an "excuse", I am simply stating that it is quite possible that it actually happened that way and it was reported to have been said.

In fact, I would question the likelihood that an officer would intentionally draw and fire his service pistol at point blank range at an unarmed man face down on the ground in front of a bunch of witnesses. He would likely be giving up his career, his freedom....for what? Of course, it could have been a fit of anger/rage.......

Reason would indicate there were more likely other factors involved such as an accidental discharge or accidentally drawing the wrong weapon.

Of course, I don't dismiss the possibility that it was intentional or even premeditated.

To put it in a perspective that more people here might relate to. I reviewed a case last year of a drug meant to be given by IV that was injected into an artery. Really.

We are all aware of cases of terrible errors of that nature in medical practice. The wrong drugs given, the wrong dosage, the wrong route, even with very different apparatus/vials/containers used that would seem to make it obvious. And those events took a lot more time and observation to accomplish that the second or two the event in question took. And those people were highly trained and well practiced.

The wrong organs or limbs have been removed in surgery by highly trained surgeons.

Instruments, devices, and materials have been found closed inside patients after surgery. Done by highly trained people.

Yes, it certainly is possible.

Originally Posted by AmericanIMG

(with the taser Chop posted weighing 18oz and a 9mm being 2-3x that). i am guessing someone in PR quickly devised this excuse to spin spin spin.

Indeed the model I posted weighs a hair over 19 ounces. I had to check, I didn't know off hand.

A Glock 17 9MM weighs 22 ounces. With a loaded magazine add about 9 ounces. That I know off hand. (different brands and types of ammunition vary in weight, but that is a fair number I think)


We don't know at this point what model taser or what model pistol that officer was carrying, but you can see, the difference may be nowhere near what you portray.

EDIT:
Such weapons as the taser I cited are actually designed intentionally to emulate the look, feel, heft, and operation of a firearm. This is in order to facilitate training and use since the weapon will be more familiar to those already trained with firearms and also to increase the perceived threat when wielded.

This has been a point of some contention for me in the past in other contexts where I have advanced my opinion on the matter. I simply don't like the idea. Such weapons should not emulate firearms. I also feel, as I stated earlier, that they should not be carried on the "strong side" with a firearm. My reasoning, I think, should be clear. More than that, the possibility that such matters could be in play in this event only serve to reinforce my opinion on the matter....regardless if such matters actually had anything to do with it, the fact that they could have only strengthens my opinion on it.

i believe your weight measurements for a loaded glock to be incorrect. i fire them at ranges, and they are significantly heavy with a full clip.
as for the cop not shooting a guy like that on purpose, cops have been convicted of rape, of beatings, of murders and much more. in NY, police officers at a strip club were drinking, got into a fight and then shot repeatedly and killed a man who was celebrating his bachelor's party, and who's wedding was just a few hours away.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/nyregion/26cops.html

in cases like these i do not tend to believe the police's story, because many times they abuse their power.

I can't blame you for not believing it at all, especially based on the reasoning you give. Believe it or not, even though I once participated in their training, I don't trust cops myself and tend to steer clear of them. But that does not change the matter of the possibility of the accident nor make it nonsense.

But....if you don't believe the weight of the Glock...I'll go check Google.....hold on a minute.....

Yup...I was right.

The Glock FAQ [Glock Model Guide]

If you think that's heavy you should try my 659 Smith!


Though not a significant difference I should point out that at the range you are likely firing FMJ or Ball ammunition. The police generally don't carry that and the weight is different. Minor point.

actually some of those glocks w/ full mags from the link u sent make the weight 2x the taser.

Yup....and some weight about the same as the taser.....and some tasers are heavier!


Now you are just being argumentative.

You said a 9mm GLOCK and I happened to know the approximate weight of such a service weapon. I checked, and I was right. I know such a thing because I have spent many years actively training in such matters and training others. You didn't know it and though it must be much heavier. I'll go one step further. The novice and/or less experienced shooter is often impressed by the weight of a handgun and it is often the first comment they make. This is so true that they often have an inclination to overestimate the weight of the weapon. The shoe fits.

I could have selected a compact small caliber pistol that would weight a fraction of what the taser weighs, but I was trying to be fair and honest.

My sense it that we have exceeded your expertise on the matter anyway, so I'm not terribly concerned about your argument.

If you still have issues about the weight of a 9mm service Glock, I'll go weigh a few of mine when I have time and confirm the specs for you. If you don't trust me, feel free to go to the range where you rent yours and weigh the appropriate model(s).