People have been asking me what I meant by "hassles." Well...

Essentially, the first two years over there are fine. It doesn't matter where you study, the US, Eastern Europe, Zimbabwe. You have to learn the basics. The books you use at Poznan are the same as those in the US. In some small ways, it's even "better" that in the US in the sense that some classes require you to learn more detail. Whereas in the US you are taught directly to the boards, in Poznan you are taught the basics of medicine. In no class will you be taught too little. So, the question is, is learning too much, bad?

Where the problems start is first in the little things, and then, in the last two years, in the support.

In yrs 1-2 you will run into problems such as tests that move. Tests are scheduled, but people freak out, and have the professors move them. Or, you will, for some odd reason, not get a second semester schedule until you are three quarters of the way through semester one.

These things are a huge pain. Scheduling difficulties. Retarded classmates. People who really really should not be in med school in the first place getting in due to the "no MCAT" requirement, and a host of other probelms in the "admissions" process.

But survivable.

Yet, the whole enterprise is meaningless if you don't get a residency. That is, a job.

In years 3-4 the list of failures on the part of Poznan is impressive. They are all surmountable, as people do get residencies, but they really make your life harder than it should be.

The communication amongst departments is terrible. Essentially, each department (Ob/Gyn, Surgery, Pediatrics, etc...) is not aware of what you learn in other departments, and does not care to find out. So, month after month, all year long, you start with the basics. It is not assumed mid-way through 3rd year that you've been doing history/physicals for 6 months. They act as if you just walked into a hospital for the first time. You can extrapolate from this further.

There are no meaningful evaluations of your performance on the ward. You take a final, and that's that. You could have killed 37 patients, been a total penis, and as long as you ace the final, you're golden.

No meaningful evaluations mean that the Dean's Office has no meaningful way of creating a Dean's Letter for you. This is REQUIRED for your residency application, and is a summary of your performance on the ward in the third year. So, they simply don't do it.

The scheduling pays little attention to the main goals...USMLE study, and following the proper timeline in the Senior year for filing residency applications. Essentially, the administration does not know what is involved in this, and is finding out only very very slowly.

The administration underestimates how important it is for us to do rotations in the US. They view it as a "nice little vacation" we take for a few months. The work that is done in US hospitals with 100h work weeks and god knows what else, would kill the average Polish doctor in three days. As soon as he found out that he can't leave the hospital for the day at 1pm...he'd have an MI.

They also don't fully realize that we go to the US to WORK, to be part of the team. No to sit around and observe...as Polish med students do. They simply don't realize that. And thus, they are reluctant to help us get these months in the US.

As it is, we must scramble very hard to obtain the proper course credits in the second semester of the 4th year. We have to make arrangments with the professors to take course early, and other such things, to get the ECFMG certificate on time, so to be able to start work on July first.

None of this is a real problem is you take a year off to devote to paperwork, board-exam-taking, and what not, after you graduate. It's just a pain.

But to figure out how to get a residency all on your own, in the senior year is not easy. You are spending the summer between yrs 3 and 4 studying for Step 2 CK, trying to put together the regular residency application, on top of which you have to essentially write, or at least heavily edit, your letters of rec, and your Dean's Letter. Not to mention, trying to figure out the whole ERAS/FREIDA/ECFMG systems to register for The Match, to submit your application, and do it all in time to get it validated by the ECFMG so you can actually practice in the US.

Of course, you are spending your first semester in the US, doing rotations in US hospitals. So, now you've got to come to work, and actually work, from 6am to midnight, whereas in Poznan 9am was too early, and if you got out at 2pm, you complained that it was waaay late...and in any case, you didn't really have to do anything on the ward if you didn't want to, just simply show up.

These US rotations are very important both for getting real letters of rec from US docs, but also to teach you how to function in a US medical environment. A skill you will need to pass the Step 2 CS (CSA)...for which you are not at all prepared in Poznan....which you have to take in the middle of your US rotations...as well as go on residency interviews.

Then in March, you try to match. If you match, you try to convince the school to issue your diploma early so you can submit it to the ECFMG. If you don't, and you don't get your Certificate, you cannot start July 1st at the residency you've matched at.

Look at it this way. Years one and two are a hassle, but it all comes down to studying. No problem. Study. Pass Step 1. No one said med school is easy.

Year three is essentially a vacation. You can do nothing if you choose. Travel, party, whatever.

Or, study your a*s off in a very relaxed environment, and ace your Step 2, with none of the third year hell and stress the US kids go through.

Then, in year four, you have a summer, and a semester and a half of hell. After March, if you match, and have all your ducks in a row, you are on a real European vacation. Tickets to Vienna can be had for $100.

This is a do-it-yourself med school. But it is a very real med school. Much of the clinical faculty is fantastic. Wonderful doctors. All speak english. You just have to seek them out, and attach yourself to them. The school won't do it for you. If you do it right, the school can make you into a real, well-educated, M.D. But only ONLY if you take the initiative.

They will make things like getting a copy of your transcript a week-long beurocratic hell. But they are learning...slowly, very slowly...but learning.

In large measure, and in the broadest view, all these things are economic. PUMS is a business, and it's product is a well-trained physician who passed his boards, and obtained a residency in the US.

This is slowly, slowly dawning on them. 40 years of Communism does not become immediately erased. They are beginning to realize that to make a buck, they will have to pay attention to ALL aspects of medical education. Including facilitating the obtaining of a residency for PUMS grads.

Otherwise, the business will fail...and they don't want that.

People, ask hard questions at your interview! Don't worry, they'll still let you in.

Hope this helped.

Pass this on to your friends. Post it on all the forums. Get it out there! Do with it what you will!!

Hey,

Thanks for the heads-up! I'm heading over in a month.

Bye ........ Gerry

Hey, thanks so much for an honest answer. I too am heading over next month, and am slowly learning from others that it can and will be a beaurocratic nightmare, and that you really have to stay on top of things with the administration.

Hopefully, enough complaining from North American students will force the administration to adopt a truly American M.D. program that it already claims to have in place...


http://amp.edu.pl/eng/index2.php?str...s&department=3

"The 4-year M.D. Program of the Poznan University of Medical Sciences is designed for U.S. Canadian and international college graduates who have completed their pre-medical education and have obtained satisfactory grades in chemistry, physics and biology.

Candidates for this program may be accepted after demonstrating a record of academic achievements and after undergoing preliminary interviews.

Education at the University is based on the American M.D. program and conforms to American education standards."

__________________
Class of 2008, 4yr MD
Poznan University of Medical Sciences
Poznan, Poland

Student Website: www.poznanmedicine.org

University Website: www.ump.edu.pl

NY Admissions Office Website: www.mdprogram.com

"Dispel from your mind the thought that an understanding of the human body in every aspect of its structure can be given in words..."

- Leonardo da Vinci

What you quoted...

"The 4-year M.D. Program of the Poznan University of Medical Sciences is designed for U.S. Canadian and international college graduates who have completed their pre-medical education and have obtained satisfactory grades in chemistry, physics and biology.

Candidates for this program may be accepted after demonstrating a record of academic achievements and after undergoing preliminary interviews.

Education at the University is based on the American M.D. program and conforms to American education standards."

...comes from the school website.

All of it is, strictly speaking, true. But, realistically, in spite of all the "official" sounding words, there are students in the 4-year program with no MCAT, and no pre-med courses.

Interviews are not mandatory, to use a strong word, as a good number of students are admitted without an interview. But the interview process is such that it does not, in effect, prevent anyone who really wants to come from coming to study. Rejections, if any, and there are rumours that they exist, are few. And even then, a bit of persistance will get you in.

Canadian students beware. There are extra tests that Canada requires above and beyond the USMLE. Further, post-9-11, there are visa issues. Finally, getting a residency in Canada is very difficult. Most likely, you will be a physician-in-residence in the U.S. I am not Canadian, and cannot comment further. US licensure is complicated as it is, and the school is woefully overwhelmed and unable to assist students with that. So, canadian students are wholly on their own.

The final paragraph is largely true. Everything is based on the US model.

A few extra points. There no longer exists a Prometric center (a place you take your Boards) in Warsaw. This is due to "irregularities." Not a surprise in a Central European country just learning how to govern itself in a civilized fashion. The closest center is in Berlin...actually closer than Warsaw.

Also, the school site speaks of "accreditation." They use the term very obfuscatively. There is no U.S.-accreditation for foreign schools. None. Foreign schools, in spite of what they may say, are never accredited in the US. The best a school can do is get registered with http://imed.ecfmg.org/

So, in spite of he nice, official-sounding language on the web site, the school still has a long way to go.

But, let me stress yet again. The teaching and the learning are there. The devil is in the details. It is very possible to learn what you need at PUMS, and to learn it well.

You've simply got to do it yourself. Excellence is not rewarded in Eastern European countries in the same way that it is in the US. Ironically, those students who do well at PUMS are the students who would do well anywhere...but for one reason or another did not go to US med schools.

I like the above quote...

...I'd like to think of it this way - students who do well ABROAD are the students who would do well anywhere!

Could someone please post if it is possible to visit the school during summer break and stay in the dorms at PUMS?

thanx

oh, wow - me too

i'm planning a trip during this summer

Yeah, you guys can certainly visit in the summer and stay in the dorms (most likely Eskulap).

Visit the University website, specifically this link:

http://www.amp.edu.pl/eng/index.php?...232&test=x232x


And you'll find some contact email addresses.

Since I cannot name names, contact the person "responsible for the 1st and 2nd-year students of the 4-YEAR M.D. PROGRAM". You'll see a contact email address for her. Tell her that you would like to visit the school and when, and that you would also like accomodation in the dorms.

__________________
Class of 2008, 4yr MD
Poznan University of Medical Sciences
Poznan, Poland

Student Website: www.poznanmedicine.org

University Website: www.ump.edu.pl

NY Admissions Office Website: www.mdprogram.com

"Dispel from your mind the thought that an understanding of the human body in every aspect of its structure can be given in words..."

- Leonardo da Vinci

Thanx mutig, do you know the schedule for this summer break? Is the dorm usually full during the school year? Should I visit during the break?

hey guys,
im interested in the 4yr md program. i am currently studying BSc biomedical science.

will i be eligible to apply with this?

also do i need to take the MCAT test? the website states that this is preffered but it doesnt say its essential.

also what are the annual cost likely to be including fee,accom,books, transport, nights out etc??

many thanks
seb