Okay, I took a couple minutes to look for names of residents, etc... at the programs you listed above.

Here's what I found (broken down by specialty)

Psych

University of New Mexico--New Mexico--Psychiatry. http://hsc.unm.edu/som/psychiatry/tr.../resident.shtm Does not list residents.
Loyola University--Illinois--Psychiatry. http://www.luhs.org/depts/psych/resi...housestaff.htm Does not list medical schools, but superficially appears IMG/DO friendly.
Southern Illinois University--Illinois-Psychiatry. http://www.siumed.edu/psych/main/edutrain/respic.htm Outdated resident list, no school affiliation, appears IMG friendly.

IM

Southern Illinois University--Illinois--Internal Medicine. http://www.siumed.edu/medicine/residency/medres.htm Appears very IMG friendly, couldn't find a housestaff list.
Long Island College Hospital--New York--Internal Medicine. http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/...511280,00.html FREIDA does not show a web address.

FP

Medical College of Georgia--Georgia--Family Practice. http://www.mcg.edu/Resident/fm/index.html Does not appear to list residents.

Peds
New York Methodist Hospital--New York--Pedicatrics. http://www.nym.org/education/residen...diat-prog.html Does not appear to list residents, appears IMG friendly.

Surgery

John Hopkins Hospital--Maryland--Surgery. http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/surge...Residency.html Has both prelim & categorical surgery. I couldn't find a housestaff list.
Robert Packer Hospital--Pennsylvania--Surgery. http://www.guthrie.org/residency/gen.../residents.asp Does not list school affiliation, appears IMG friendly (rural). Only categorical (no pyramidal system).
Maimonides Medical Center--New York--Surgery. http://maimonidesmed.org/gme/about/t...ny.htm#surgery Does not list school affiliation, superficially appears IMG friendly.

Now, the fact that I couldn't find a single resident with affiliation to one of the Hope schools doesn't mean that they don't attain those positions. It is (generally) indicative of IMG friendly programs that they do not list school affiliations (presumably, so that they don't additionally put off US grads).

As far as specialties go, Psych (generally, again) is not considered competitive (truth be told, I wouldn't mind gaining one of those spots myself), IM (with exception of university powerhouses) is also wide open to IMGs, as is FP. Surgery is another ball-game. Categorical spots are super-competitive, whereas preliminary ones are routinely obtained by IMGs.

So, let's accept that HMI grads obtained those or very similar positions above (However, I will continue to be skeptical about categorical surgery spots.)

Compare this list to SGU/Ross/AUC (and to a lesser degree Saba) and consider the following:

1) Those schools have thousands of licensed grads.
2) Their grads are eligible for licensure in all 50 states.
3) Their grads (as far as IMGs go) also obtain far more competitive residencies in addition to primary care ones.
4) The administration of those schools is far more professional than HMI. For instance; SGU, even though a significant number of its students are able to transfer to US schools (based in part on their pre-med stats) clearly warns prospective students that they should come with the understanding that they will not transfer. Two-bit agents and agencies on the other hand mislead their prospective students into believing that they'll transfer. In addition, they surprise their applicants with last minute placement fees for minimal services, etc...

I think that the difference is clear.

Miklos

Hi Mikols,

Let’s be honest or rather realistic that we cannot compare the Medical Schools in Caribbean with those in Poland or other countries of the world. We all know that most of the Universities in Caribbean are well organized, and are designed with the standards to help students excel on their USMLE. Furthermore, their selection criteria, unlike medical schools in other countries are extremely competitive. While a student might be able to gain admission at Poznan, Lublin, Silesia, and few other universities without having a bachelors or the MCAT, the schools in Caribbean, and mainly SGU, Ross, AUC, and SABA are strict about the admission criteria. (MCAT, Bachelors, Volunteer work, and interview). Furthermore, the crowd that gets selected in Caribbean is extremely competitive and determined with keen interest in medicine. (Most of them were in the first cut-off in the US applicant pool), whereas the accepted students for a six-year program in Poland lack the exposure to college education and the intense medical school education, and the ones that are accepted for a four year programs have yet not taken the MCAT and don’t have their bachelors.

LEAVING ALL THAT ADISE, we are in this forum for those who have not been able to make into the US or Caribbean medical schools, and are considering applying to Poland, Hungary, or some other European medical school. Our focus is that… if they plan to get their education in Poland, what are their chances to get the residence position upon graduation.
As a matter of fact, you yourself have seen that there are many places that are IMG friendly, and the IMG even though will not be able to gain the residence in most competitive field, will at least be able to do residence in either internal medicine, family practice, pediatrics, or psychiatry.
And I think this should be helpful to many students considering to go to Poznan, Lublin, Silesia, or some place else that YES! The IMG’s are able to get a residence position in the US at some hospitals, but, most likely you will be able to gain a position in a less competitive field and would struggle for specialties such as dermatology, neurosurgery, cardiology, and many more.


Please talk to every single person who you think will be able to guide you before making a decision to go to a medical school in Poland.
Contact the residence directors at the hospitals nearby to see whether they consider an IMG for a residence position, and if they do what factors will be in your favor (USMLE score) and what factors will be against you? (Need bachelors? Need the MCAT? Where you did your rotations?)

dt

It is ironic that you just suggested that as I (five minutes ago) just came from the office of the director of residency for emergency medicine. I was only able to talk to the receptionist and scheduled an appointment with him tomorrow. Since I would consider it a rather competitive residency program (Vanderbilt University), I am hoping that his suggestions will be representative of many hospitals of similar caliber.

However, I still have had little input on differences between the education in Poznan, Krakow and Warsaw.

Let's take this point by point.

I think that your argument is specious.

Let's begin by separating four year and six year programs for the purposes of this discussion. Earlier, we were discussing HMI's four year programs.

All four year programs are in the same market. That is North American students with pre-reqs (though not necessarily a degree or MCATs) in hand.

The whole point of a four year program is to get the North American student home without delay. Why have 3rd and 4th year US clinical rotations?

Also, not all Carib. school require the MCAT (in fact, until relatively recently, only SGU and AUC among the established ones required it); Saba to my knowledge, still does not.

Regarding the interest in medicine bit, I'd hope that everyone attending a medical school abroad is keen on medicine (otherwise, what the hell are they doing there?)

See above. The market for six year programs is significantly different from four year programs.

Not so fast. Attaining residencies is only one part of the puzzle. Licensure (IMO) is even more important in the long run. Additionally, there are many students who have pre-reqs (or are very close to having them done) who should know that coming to this region has its downside and that they should consider other options first.

This, again, IMO is a very specious argument.

Yes, if we limit ourselves to simply getting a residency in IM/FP/Peds/Psych then you would be correct given:

-At least the current number or a greater number of residencies in those specialties. (BTW, there's a legal limit to the number of total residencies, as they are paid for by the government. Unless the law is changed, this could be a problem.)
-No large scale expansion of either DO (or good Carib.) programs to produce more graduates, who compete with IMGs from the region. (DO schools are expanding like crazy, and as there aren't enough 'attractive' DO residencies, so they compete for allopathic ones; something their own organizations are actively encouraging by waiving DO requirements.)
-Current visa regimens which limit true FMGs (and thereby USIMG competition). (Who knows what will happen.)

However, none of these is a given. No one knows what will happen four or six years down the line. No one is guaranteed a residency. If competition heats up (see reasons above), guess who'll get squeezed out?

-True FMGs with poor language/cultural skills
-Marginal USIMGs (mostly outside the top USIMG programs or excellent native schools.)

Also, we haven't even discussed the quality of the residencies obtained. There is a large difference between 3 and 4 years at a malignant program that simply uses its residents as bodies to do low-level scut AND a program that cares about education (see specialty board pass rates). Where do you think the less prepared IMG does end up?

See above. Also, we haven't even touched on medical school attrition rates or first time USMLE pass rates, etc...

Outside of PDs, who do you think is helpful? (I can tell you that agents and pre-meds are not...)

Miklos

Well, let's see their resident list.

PGY1

Craig Berger
University of Nevada
School of Medicine

****** Brywczynski
Wright State University
School of Medicine

John Colfax
Harvard Medical School

Joy Crook
Eastern Virginia Medical School

Adrienne Darhower
University of Texas
Southern Medical School at Dallas

Brenna Farmer
East Carolina University
School of Medicine

Meg Jack
University of Oklahoma
College of Medicine

Christine Keyes
Wake Forest University
School of Medicine

Kimberly Plourde
University of Texas
Medical School at Houston

Jenifer Tanner
Morehouse School of Medicine

PGY2

Christine Barone
University of Virginia

Chad Findley
University of South Florida

Khary Harmon
Johns Hopkins University

Christina Gordon
University of Louisville

Nicole McCoin
Vanderbilt University

Jared McKinney
Vanderbilt University

Stephan Russ
University of Tennessee

Travis Stork
University of Virginia

PGY3

Robert Blair
University of Texas

Jason Buss
University of Pittsburgh

Chris Dunnahoo
University of Texas

Geoff Hayden
University of Virginia

Kristian Kemp
Medical College of Wisconsin

C.P. Krishnamurthy
Columbia University

Robert Richling
Finch University of Health Sciences

Clay Smith
University of Tennessee

Not a single IMG or a DO. Plus there's a couple top 10 medical schools represented.

Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty competitive program.

I have seen the current residents list at Emory. However, that does not mean that 1) a proportionate number of IMGs even apply and 2) that quality IMGs apply(which may be a very small sample of the total IMG pool). I am taking a guess that many IMGs are there because they prefer to take the easier route and might have not put the effort into medical school abroad that they should have. That is NOT to say that all US citizens who attend foreign medical schools are slackers. In fact, a student with which I graduated, who was at the top of our class and has very competitive MCAT scores is considering medical school abroad for some of the same reasons I am...to try and study outside of the US bubble and to enhance her perspective (also, I have not yet taken the MCAT as mentioned earlier). However, I am starting to realize (special thanks to Neil) that this might not be the best option and that staying stateside might drastically improve my future career. I REALLY wish this was not the case, but no one ever said I could have my cake and eat it too.

For a moment I felt that everything was under control and I knew what was going on, but once again I am questioning the choice of studying medicine abroad. It seems impossible to assess or comprehend the situation. Moreover, the outcomes of studying abroad still appear to be deceiving ones. I was glad to notice that there were residence positions available for IMG at various locations, but again it’s not a certainty that four years from now I will be able to avail myself the opportunity of attaining a residence, which might be taken my a better qualified IMG or might not be even available for IMG’s.

But anyways….

I was looking at the graduates at St. George’s School of Medicine, and just as I had thought, most of the graduates are in family practice, internal medicine, pediatrics, Ob/Gyn, and surgery. There were only few numbers of graduates who are in neurology, which makes me feel a bit better about the Silesian or Lublin medical school as the graduates are in one of those fields.

The only plus is Caribbean medical schools have excellent USMLE pass rate. I just read a section in a book about IMG, and the data of 2000 showed very high passing rate on USMLE for a Caribbean student.


Is there any possible way to find out what percent of students who took the USMLE from Poland or Caribbean passed it in their first attempt?


dt

Hey dthomas,

I love this quote:

"Furthermore, the crowd that gets selected in Caribbean is extremely competitive and determined with keen interest in medicine. (Most of them were in the first cut-off in the US applicant pool), whereas the accepted students for a six-year program in Poland lack the exposure to college education and the intense medical school education, and the ones that are accepted for a four year programs have yet not taken the MCAT and don’t have their bachelors."

I guess our USMLE first time scores from Poland would be worse. Because we really don't know why we are here..........right. Please!!!

It doesn't really matter what the pass rates are...........how you score is what matters. If you are so worried about all this stay in the states. Europe might be a little too intense for you.

Bye.........Gerry

Gerry,
Just out of curiosity, why did you choose to go to Poznan? At this point, do you have any regrets on that decision? It may be along the same lines as your first answer, but would you rather have taken a few years off to possibly improve your resume (given that was the case) to try and get into a US school?

I happy I came here. I'm forty years old and I didn't even try to get into a US school.