Originally Posted by Newlifedrj

Wow! Please Please Please! If you're completely misinformed, if you don't have the correct response, and if you don't know what the heck your talking about; DON'T POST!..Its simple...

Ok I'll bite.. TO clear up this complete misunderstanding; while there might be some DPM's that are trying to gain an MD, that does NOT mean that they are total incompetent idiots.. The DPM degree is RARELY degraded anymore by the medical community and general public by those who are informed about the podiatric profession.
There are many other healthcare professions that DO get the bad end of the stick, like podiatry. However, most MDs don't deal with the feet and are OK with sending their patients to the DPM. Even orthos that don't do feet, will also sent their foot issues out to a DPM.

Podiatrist go to MEDICAL SCHOOL, granted it is not an "In general" medical school, but one that allows you to specialize early on. IF an MD or DO wanted to have the same exact scope of practice as a DPM he/she would have to complete a residency in Orthopedic Surgery, THEN they would complete a Foot and Ankle fellowship.
I think you are playing on words a little. DPMs don't go to "medical school" if they did, they would get a medical degree. They are trained in their limited area, I will agree with that. First off.. a Ortho, even a general could do any surgery in their scope as any DPM. The question comes into their training. DPMs get a conventrated education in the feet, where the ortho learn EVERYTHING.. so it isn't even fair to compare. For a DPM to have the same scope as a ortho.. they would have to start over, do four years of med school, 5 years of residency, etc.

Fact is that DPM's complete 4 years of Podiatric Medical School, then minimum 2-3 yrs of residency and thus they are granted the FULL ability to operate, treat (prescribe), and diagnose a patients lower limb illnesses.
Yet again.. DPMs are limited to a small area of the body. They have very little practical knowledge on ALL the other parts of the body, especially the main areas like.. the brain, lungs, heart, GI and all the physiology, pathology and treatment of these diseases.

DPM's make physician salary's, and they ARE just as much a doctor as an MD or DO with the exeption that DPM's can't treat the entire body, thus they can't take in "general" calls, and can't be consulted for upper limb associated problems Within a hospital..But they do have knowledge in the upper extremities, hence the basic science courses they undergo... They have extensive training in surgery as well, and HAVE EARNED the RIGHT to be called physicians by law (look it up..)
Yes.. you are right.. under medicare guidelines they are listed as "physician", so are chiropractors. However, they are not considered "primary care physicians" Also called point of entry physicians. You have to see how limited a DPM is in scope and education. It is nice to only have to learn ONE area of the body and the limited problems of that area. I think I just want to learn the pinky..

General Orthopedists Usually can't possibly mirror the knowledge that a DPM has about the lower extremities... As a DPM has over 4-5 years (after basic sciences) of CONCENTRATED lower extremity training. DPM's have the ability gain FULL licensure in ALL US states and are recognized outside of the US by many countries.
You are right. As I stated above, DPMs can't even IMAGINE knowing what a general ortho knows about the WHOLE body.
Here's what on *average a Podiatric Physician makes <--Click

As you can see their salary basically mirrors that of a general practitioner whether MD or DO.. Of course there are some who make way over 300k (I know of some), while statistically there are some who make less than 90k... It all depends.. Obviously the compensation of a Podiatric Surgeon in private practice will be MUCH greater than a non-surgical podiatric physician... Depends...
You are saying they are better than orthos, more skilled...but are comparing their salary to that of a primary care doctor. If they are more educated on these areas, why does they salary not reflect that?
Podiatrists in MANY hospitals have the right to FULLY manage and treat a patient... If and only when the patient has an illness that pertains to the their lower limb area... Some hospitals even let DPM's admit their own patients! Podiatrist are classified as PHYSICIANS and will continue to strive...
I love this.. SOME hospitals.. Guess what.. some hospitals let chiropractors admit pts, delivery babies and do minor surgeries. So.. I guess that makes chiros better than DPMs and as good as general MDs, right? NOPE.
They will strive for one reason. That is because it is hard to get into med school, it is even harder to obtain a ortho residency. IF there were more orthos that wanted to do feet, enough to meet the need, DPMs would be out of business. Same with chiro, if PMR docs or DOs performed more spinal manipulation, chiros would be out of business.
I could go on and on.. Point being is STOP talking nonsense when you have NO IDEA about what your talking about.. The DPM degree is very respected and if you decide to become a podiatric physician then you WILL be making more than enough money in order for you to pay back your educational loans...
I will agree with this. One of my best friends is a DPM. He makes a nice living and enjoys what he does. I think the point was, if you want to do ortho type surgery, why limit yourself to one area and why go into a field where the average person make a little over 100K, when you could go into a field (ortho) that makes an average of 300K. Even at 100K, you will pay your loans back and make a good living.

Please, just show respect to all aspects of the medical field.. Because it is unethical and childish to WRONGFULLY depict a profession as respected and as needed as podiatry.. Heck TONS of people DON'T even know that Podiatry is separate from MD's, and that they go to a completely different type of medical school.. You might have even gone to one when you were younger and you didn't even have a clue as to what the difference between them and MD's was.. Point No. 2 being is a physician is a physician..period... Much like a surgeon is a surgeon, it doesn't matter if the surgeon only operates on the hand or feet...
Not true. This point you should revise. A physician is not a physician.. and a surgeon is not a surgeon. If it was, they wouldn't be called podiatrists to clearly show the seperation.
GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT! Please, for the sake of other medical professions..

Thank you!

Originally Posted by drjohnwebb

DPMs are needed and they do good work, however.. let's be honest.. they don't have the education of MDs, nor the scope of practice. They are good at what they do and that is the limit of their scope.
You really are trying to compare apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by drjohnwebb

~There are many other healthcare professions that DO get the bad end of the stick, like podiatry. However, most MDs don't deal with the feet and are OK with sending their patients to the DPM. Even orthos that don't do feet, will also sent their foot issues out to a DPM.

Yes, many times this is the case.

~I think you are playing on words a little. DPMs don't go to "medical school" if they did, they would get a medical degree. They are trained in their limited area, I will agree with that. First off.. a Ortho, even a general could do any surgery in their scope as any DPM. The question comes into their training. DPMs get a conventrated education in the feet, where the ortho learn EVERYTHING.. so it isn't even fair to compare. For a DPM to have the same scope as a ortho.. they would have to start over, do four years of med school, 5 years of residency, etc.

Well I'll have to disagree to a certain extent. DPM's DO obtain a medical degree, hence D.P.M~ Doctor of Podiatric MEDICINE. They are trained in the lower extremities, however they are very knowledgeable about the entire body. Just take a look at the first 2 years of Pod school's curriculum.. Their curriculum practically mirrors that of MD and DO schools. And in some Pod programs the entire first 2 years are FULLY integrated with the schools MD and/or DO program (i.e. take Des Moines University). I stand corrected, reference to "if orthos wanted the same scope of practice". Your correct, something that I managed to overlook is the fact that general Orthos are trained in the ENTIRE body, from head to toe, thus enabling them to have the ability to operate on ANY part of the body at any given time.

DPM's NEED to have exceptional knowledge about the ENTIRE body as well. For example.. What if a DPM is operating and all of a sudden the patient is having a heart attack? The DPM NEEDS to know enough about the heart and the rest of the body in order to assess the situation and come to a conclusion on how to help the patient at THAT moment and time.. Or what if a patient comes in for a F&A consult and the PT brings a couple diagnostic tests with them.. But when the DPM reads them he finds out that the PT has cancer or some type of malignant disease that has NOTHING to do with the lower extremities... How do you suppose the DPM knew how to read those tests and realize that the PT had an illness?? Sheer luck?? No!

DPM's can administer most if not all drugs; your a doctor (I assume) so you know that when you administer X drug, that drug even though its meant for X illness within a specific area of the body, it has the ability to affect the ENTIRE body and can cause complications througout the entire body... SO if a DPM has to administer X drug meant for the foot, what happens if that drug meant for that specific area of the body, meant for that specific patient killed the patient when administered, because the patient had an illness that when it interacted with that specific drug it had caused the patients fatality for whatever reason... Then what? How can a DPM avoid such problems? By having exceptional knowledge about the ENTIRE body.

~Yet again.. DPMs are limited to a small area of the body. They have very little practical knowledge on ALL the other parts of the body, especially the main areas like.. the brain, lungs, heart, GI and all the physiology, pathology and treatment of these diseases.

I responded to this above....

~Yes.. you are right.. under medicare guidelines they are listed as "physician", so are chiropractors. However, they are not considered "primary care physicians" Also called point of entry physicians. You have to see how limited a DPM is in scope and education. It is nice to only have to learn ONE area of the body and the limited problems of that area. I think I just want to learn the pinky..

Thats not the case, as I stated above DPM's NEED to have knowledge about the ENTIRE body... Just ask your DPM friend.. Have a conversation with him about the brain, lungs, and any other major organ, and see what he says... your probably going to be surprised as to how much knowledge a DPM can have about the ENTIRE body...

~You are right. As I stated above, DPMs can't even IMAGINE knowing what a general ortho knows about the WHOLE body.
Yeah because Orthos have EXTENSIVE consecutive training of the ENTIRE body...

~You are saying they are better than orthos, more skilled...but are comparing their salary to that of a primary care doctor. If they are more educated on these areas, why does they salary not reflect that?
DPM's are more skilled than Orthos in the lower extremity, BUT to a certain extent.... Of course you can't argue that 3 years residency followed by an opted 2 years of F&A fellowship in concentrated training of the lower extremity trumps an Orthos 5 years of "In General" training of the entire body.. Thats just common sense.. In MANNY states and countries DPM's even if in private practice make less than Orthos, BUT only due to their compensation, which is controlled by insurance companies... Basically its the insurance companies fault... SOME (not all) insurance companies pay considerably less amount of money to DPM's and more to Orthos for the SAME exact procedure... Of course thats in private practice, however as I've already stated a DPM can easily if in private practice make double what an Ortho can.....

NOW, in hospitals its a different story... One of the many reasons why DPM's make less than Orthos is because DPM's CAN'T take general calls.. As where an Orthopedists can take ANY type of "In general" call... And you have to understand that DPM's are "limited" to the lower extremities, however Orthos even if they complete a fellowship in F&A aren't, they can still operate on the entire body, but its just that they would have extensive training in the Foot & Ankle..

~I love this.. SOME hospitals.. Guess what.. some hospitals let chiropractors admit pts, delivery babies and do minor surgeries. So.. I guess that makes chiros better than DPMs and as good as general MDs, right? NOPE.
They will strive for one reason. That is because it is hard to get into med school, it is even harder to obtain a ortho residency. IF there were more orthos that wanted to do feet, enough to meet the need, DPMs would be out of business. Same with chiro, if PMR docs or DOs performed more spinal manipulation, chiros would be out of business.

Yeah but happens if a Chiro gets sued? You can't compare Chiros to Pods in ANY way! Chiros CAN'T prescribe and CAN'T perform complicated surgeries.. If Chiros can perform surgeries, I can guarantee you that it will be VERY minor invasive surgeries.... But I didn't know that some hospitals allowed this.... Yeah your right, but USUALLY an Ortho which has extensive knowledge of the entire body (as stated by you) and has the ability to operate on the ENTIRE body, would not want to be STUCK with the only the lower extremity.. Think about it... And put yourself in an Orthos shoes.. SO yeah.. Um.. I don't see this happening ANYTIME soon...

~I will agree with this. One of my best friends is a DPM. He makes a nice living and enjoys what he does. I think the point was, if you want to do ortho type surgery, why limit yourself to one area and why go into a field where the average person make a little over 100K, when you could go into a field (ortho) that makes an average of 300K. Even at 100K, you will pay your loans back and make a good living.

Why? Because maybe this person actually enjoys the lower extremity and DOESN'T care about having the privilege to operate and treat the ENTIRE body... I've personally met DPM's who NEVER even considered MD or DO school.. They went straight into the pod profession... If a pod (as I've already stated) goes into private practice, he/she can make well over 300k a year.. Of course after some hard work.... Its definitely possible, and I know of many DPM's private practice that make well over the 100k mark...If one day hospitals decide to compensate DPM's just as much as Orthos, then nobody would protest.. Because they would see the pod profession as "needed". Its the employers, private groups, and hospitals that have set the standard and average salary of a DPM to be a little higher than that of a primary docs...

~Not true. This point you should revise. A physician is not a physician.. and a surgeon is not a surgeon. If it was, they wouldn't be called podiatrists to clearly show the seperation.

Yup! Your correct! My apologies... A physician isn't a physicain and no matter what.. Thats like saying a Doctor is a Doctor.... But a surgeon has the right to be called a surgeon no matter what their specialty is... But thats why you would say Neurosurgeon, Orthopedic Surgeon, Carido-Thoracic Surgeon..etc... BUT you can't call a podiatrist a surgeon! SIMPLY BECAUSE NOT ALL podiatrist ARE surgeons... In fact there exist many pods that have NEVER and WILL never touch a scalpel.. Thats because there actually exists residencies (which will cease to exist as of 2008) that are 2 years and don't have anything to do with surgery, but instead with sports medicine, pediatrics and family medicine... So the correct terminology's Podiatric Surgeon...

Ehh, but many times who even cares what you call this and what you call that, as long as you correctly identify yourself and scope of practice.. I was just trying to elaborate on why a surgeon is a surgeon...IMO..Of course..

Originally Posted by drjohnwebb

I appreciate your defending of the pod profession... Most non-MDs have to do this. It will be a life-long struggle, no matter how well trained you are or what your scope is. Our society, and most in the world, respect the MD.. all others in healthcare are for the most part, considered on a lesser scale. Most people know MDs can do what chiros do, if they wanted, cand do what physical therapists do, if they wanted, can do what DPMs can do.. if they wanted.. etc. etc.. Medicine has even taken over accupuncture now and even dosing vitamins.. that is almost ironic, since they talked against these things for years.
Medicine learned a long time ago that they had a lot of power. Medicine can integrate almost any healthcare area and overtake it, if they choose to.

Good luck with the podiatry.. I know they do good work, but I hate to say it.. to be honest.. they will not get the respect they want, now.. or ever.

I guess dentists get a "medical" degree and so do Vets.. since it says medicine in their degree name.. some chiro schools give out the "doctor of chiropractic medicine" degree.. so I guess everyone is the same.. everyone gets a "medical degree". That is why most states have laws.. that say if you are NOT a MD, you MUST state in your business cards, signs, advertisments, etc.. what type of "Dr" you are. That way people won't come to you and mistaken you for a medical doctor.
You must also know by now.. that Medical schools will (for the most part) NOT take DPM credits towards transfer credit, but WILL take dentists. You know.. they can do surgery, prescribe drugs and all that jazz too.. but I wouldn't go to him if my side was hurting and I thought I had a serious issue. I wouldn't even go to them if I a problem with my mouth.. I would go to the MD, oral surgeon.. I go to the dentist so he can clean my teeth.. I mean.. so his hygienist can clean my teeth and so he can come in and say.. ok.. everything looks good... now give me $150.
Same with the DPM, why would I not just go to a ortho that does foot and ankle, unless there isn't one near me and the only person to see about a bunion is a DPM. I would go to the DPM first, if I didn't have insurance.. but if I did, I would go to the ortho. DPMs are like Dollar General.. they open in small towns where there is no Wal-mart to compete with. They get business by default.

I know you think the DPM and MD curriculum is the same.. it isn't.. trust me. It is hard.. but it is not as in depth as the MD. I have friends who have gone through other healthcare school and I myself have been in other healthcare school. Do you study the same subjects?.. yes.. But you get an overview in other schools and have to learn it in depth in med school.
Your rationale of the DPM knowing about the whole body would be like me saying a family doctor knows the foot, so while seeing a patient for heart disease.. he can also fix a toe problem. He knows about the foot, right? Just because a person "knows" about that area, to a limited extent, doesn't mean they can actually perform adequate care to that area.

Good luck

Originally Posted by GeorgeMD2B

MD schools take credit from Dental students because some Dentists want to become oral surgeons so they need an MD. Actually some medical schools do allow Podiatry students to enter their programs as advanced standing. There are some DPMs who have went to DO schools after finishing their degree.

Originally Posted by drjohnwebb

ISame with the DPM, why would I not just go to a ortho that does foot and ankle, unless there isn't one near me and the only person to see about a bunion is a DPM. I would go to the DPM first, if I didn't have insurance.. but if I did, I would go to the ortho. DPMs are like Dollar General.. they open in small towns where there is no Wal-mart to compete with. They get business by default.