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Thread: Naturopathic Doctors as Primary Care Physicians

  1. #1
    NUHS-AUC is offline Permanently Banned 535 points
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    Naturopathic Doctors as Primary Care Physicians

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    Seems that NDs are progressing forward with scope expansion, and whole health approach, similar to what happened to DOs back in the 70s...Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges - Naturopathic Physicians Are Primary Care Providers
    RRT2HOLISTICDOC likes this.

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    KinghND2015 is offline Newbie 511 points
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    Our qualification as primary care health providers have been valid for quite some time. What do you mean that we are now progressing to the whole health progression? Naturopathic medicine has been tackling the whole health approach way before DO's even stepped onto the field medicine. There is no reason to be surprised that we are getting more privileges, as we spend just as much time being educated in the biomedical sciences and diagnostics and beyond. I'd also liketo clear something up for a lot of the individuals on here, in regards to comparing a naturopathic doctor to an MD, the only comparison that can be made is an : ND to MD in family practice as this is essentially what ND's are trained to do upon graduation, I see way to often stupid comparisons. Naturopathic medicine has battled its way back since the day of the flexnar report, its about time we start taking over the lazy *** GP. Naturopathic medicine is actually something you can apply, I can actually treat a patient with something that works ( and i'm not talking about energy medicine/ homeopathy as what most MD's automatically assume),... what can a MD do for me? They can do 3 things: give me a prescription, send me to a specialist (which will takes months) or give me a tap on my nuts and send me home. I have much respect for advanced practicing MD's in the world of surgery and other specialities. I am finishing my first yr of ND school and let me just say, if you think 35hrs of lecture time and additional 5-6hr in lab is not anywhere comparable to a 1st yr MD student, you're either high or just simply ignornant. Anatomy, Physiology, BioChem, Embryology, Immunology, Clinical Nutrition, Acupuncture, Massage/Hydrotherapy (100x more advanced than any physiotherapists training), Clinical Psych just to a list a few courses. And just to point out my clinical nutrition, physiology is taught by an oncologist, and anatomy(which is taken 6 hrs plus 2 hr cadaver labs every week for 2 semesters) by a retired neurosurgeon. These all have clincal lab components with hands on training. I could go on and on, but I won't bother.

    "discover what will destroy life, and you are a great man, - what will prolong it and you are titled as an imposter"
    Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine - Student ( cand 2015)
    DHC - Master Herbalist
    UofM B.Sc Major Human Nutrition & Nutraceuticals
    Last edited by KinghND2015; 01-13-2012 at 10:59 PM.
    RRT2HOLISTICDOC likes this.

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    benevolo is offline Member 520 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by KinghND2015 View Post
    Our qualification as primary care health providers have been valid for quite some time. What do you mean that we are now progressing to the whole health progression? Naturopathic medicine has been tackling the whole health approach way before DO's even stepped onto the field medicine. There is no reason to be surprised that we are getting more privileges, as we spend just as much time being educated in the biomedical sciences and diagnostics and beyond. I'd also liketo clear something up for a lot of the individuals on here, in regards to comparing a naturopathic doctor to an MD, the only comparison that can be made is an : ND to MD in family practice as this is essentially what ND's are trained to do upon graduation, I see way to often stupid comparisons. Naturopathic medicine has battled its way back since the day of the flexnar report, its about time we start taking over the lazy *** GP. Naturopathic medicine is actually something you can apply, I can actually treat a patient with something that works ( and i'm not talking about energy medicine/ homeopathy as what most MD's automatically assume),... what can a MD do for me? They can do 3 things: give me a prescription, send me to a specialist (which will takes months) or give me a tap on my nuts and send me home. I have much respect for advanced practicing MD's in the world of surgery and other specialities. I am finishing my first yr of ND school and let me just say, if you think 35hrs of lecture time and additional 5-6hr in lab is not anywhere comparable to a 1st yr MD student, you're either high or just simply ignornant. Anatomy, Physiology, BioChem, Embryology, Immunology, Clinical Nutrition, Acupuncture, Massage/Hydrotherapy (100x more advanced than any physiotherapists training), Clinical Psych just to a list a few courses. And just to point out my clinical nutrition, physiology is taught by an oncologist, and anatomy(which is taken 6 hrs plus 2 hr cadaver labs every week for 2 semesters) by a retired neurosurgeon. These all have clincal lab components with hands on training. I could go on and on, but I won't bother.

    "discover what will destroy life, and you are a great man, - what will prolong it and you are titled as an imposter"
    Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine - Student ( cand 2015)
    DHC - Master Herbalist
    UofM B.Sc Major Human Nutrition & Nutraceuticals
    The bottom line is that you are in a school and profession that spends the majority of its time teaching alternative medicine that is not evidence based or even based in our understanding of how the body works. You don't need to look any further than your local Yellow Pages to get a good laugh at the kinds of things naturopaths are doing to scam money from patients. As an MD I may still refer my patients to naturopaths when they have conditions which have failed conventional treatments, but not without strict warnings about not investing too much money into unproven interventions. It's like scientology, these people will milk you dry for every penny you have.

    The number of unproven naturopathic treatments that a patient could waste their money on are infinite, or at least only limited by the imagination of naturopaths. And if by fluke one of those things works, and it didn't cost them an arm and a leg to achieve, then great. Let me know about it and let's start studying it to evaluate its use for introduction into the practice of real medicine.

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    NUHS-AUC is offline Permanently Banned 535 points
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    Naturopathic Medicine & Primary Care

    Yes, but as MDs we have to keep an open mind too

    Much of what we do as MDs isn't evidenced based either, some of our past treatments were solely based on experience, espcecially in surgery, perfect example I might add...Sadly, in the naturopathic profession most states aren't even licensing them, and ANYONE can claim they do "Naturopathy" however, please check the licensing states, and the accredited NDs that attended 4 years ND school...my DC school NUHS now offers ND degree option, and I am sure they are not teaching "bogus treatments"
    Lastly when I was at NUHS, as a DC interns, what we learned is that we have to collaborate and refer when necessary ! I'm sure it is the same case for the NDs as well.

    Here are some good resources:
    American Association of Naturopathic Physicians
    NABNE
    Council on Naturopathic Medical Education



    Quote Originally Posted by benevolo View Post
    The bottom line is that you are in a school and profession that spends the majority of its time teaching alternative medicine that is not evidence based or even based in our understanding of how the body works. You don't need to look any further than your local Yellow Pages to get a good laugh at the kinds of things naturopaths are doing to scam money from patients. As an MD I may still refer my patients to naturopaths when they have conditions which have failed conventional treatments, but not without strict warnings about not investing too much money into unproven interventions. It's like scientology, these people will milk you dry for every penny you have.

    The number of unproven naturopathic treatments that a patient could waste their money on are infinite, or at least only limited by the imagination of naturopaths. And if by fluke one of those things works, and it didn't cost them an arm and a leg to achieve, then great. Let me know about it and let's start studying it to evaluate its use for introduction into the practice of real medicine.

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    benevolo is offline Member 520 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUHS-AUC View Post
    Yes, but as MDs we have to keep an open mind too

    Much of what we do as MDs isn't evidenced based either, some of our past treatments were solely based on experience, espcecially in surgery, perfect example I might add...
    While that's true, whatever we do that isn't evidence based is still grounded in our understanding of human physiology, pathology and pharmacology which itself is heavily research based and proven. When you read what naturopaths do and their explanations for how it works ("gets rid of toxins from the body, balances your Qi, removes bad ethers"), you will understand why it's a crock. There was a naturopath in my home town who told a patient with bad peripheral vascular disease and CHF that his new-onset facial weakness was from a deficiency in electrolytes. If it was the right side of the face it was calcium, if it was the left side it meant sodium. So he told this guy with CHF to ingest high concentrations of his special sodium supplements (which was just salt tablets that he was selling in his office at a 500% price markup). You can guess what happened from there.

    Naturopaths incorporate real medical subjects into their curriculum, but unfortunately they are very watered down versions of what we do in medical school, and they are further muddled by all of the alternative medicine theories that they are taught. Eventually one day they may go the way of DOs where they will start teaching a full medical curriculum with a touch of 'naturopathy' on the side to justify their existence.

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    NUHS-AUC is offline Permanently Banned 535 points
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    Fake NDs vs. Real NDs

    Are you in a licensed state ? if not that naturopath is not a real Licensed ND, that attended 4 years ND school.
    90% of the NDs in the US these days are NOT Licensed and attended diploma mill type programs.
    Even some MDs and DCs that put the letters NDs after their name attended diploma mills, like Clayton College, Trinity school of Naturopathy etc...
    here are some examples of "fake" NDs that may give real NDs bad rep:
    About Dr. Group
    Richard Vail, DC, ND:famousdoctor.org

    This is the ONLY legitimate organziation of NDs in the US:
    American Association of Naturopathic Physicians



    Quote Originally Posted by benevolo View Post
    While that's true, whatever we do that isn't evidence based is still grounded in our understanding of human physiology, pathology and pharmacology which itself is heavily research based and proven. When you read what naturopaths do and their explanations for how it works ("gets rid of toxins from the body, balances your Qi, removes bad ethers"), you will understand why it's a crock. There was a naturopath in my home town who told a patient with bad peripheral vascular disease and CHF that his new-onset facial weakness was from a deficiency in electrolytes. If it was the right side of the face it was calcium, if it was the left side it meant sodium. So he told this guy with CHF to ingest high concentrations of his special sodium supplements (which was just salt tablets that he was selling in his office at a 500% price markup). You can guess what happened from there.

    Naturopaths incorporate real medical subjects into their curriculum, but unfortunately they are very watered down versions of what we do in medical school, and they are further muddled by all of the alternative medicine theories that they are taught. Eventually one day they may go the way of DOs where they will start teaching a full medical curriculum with a touch of 'naturopathy' on the side to justify their existence.

  7. #7
    axiomofchoice is offline Senior Member 6116 points
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    aanmc.org compares the MD and ND degree: "a 2010 course comparison of the University of Washington’s (UW) MD program and Bastyr University’s ND program shows that during the first two years, UW MD students complete a total of 150 credits and Bastyr ND students complete 151.5 credits, most of them in comparable biomedical and diagnostic science courses."

    By that logic you could say: ACE inhibitors, which are pills, decrease mortality, therefore if you take [insert random naturopathic med here] which is also a pill, you get the same benefit....

    NUHS-AUC- please tell us your education in the basic sciences at NUHS was comparable to the one you received at AUC.

    Quote Originally Posted by NUHS-AUC View Post
    Are you in a licensed state ? if not that naturopath is not a real Licensed ND, that attended 4 years ND school.
    90% of the NDs in the US these days are NOT Licensed and attended diploma mill type programs.
    Even some MDs and DCs that put the letters NDs after their name attended diploma mills, like Clayton College, Trinity school of Naturopathy etc...
    here are some examples of "fake" NDs that may give real NDs bad rep:
    About Dr. Group
    Richard Vail, DC, ND:famousdoctor.org

    This is the ONLY legitimate organziation of NDs in the US:
    American Association of Naturopathic Physicians

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    NUHS-AUC is offline Permanently Banned 535 points
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    MDs and NDs

    Yes, I would say very similar, but AUC was more intense in Pharmacology & Pathology, NUHS was harder on Anatomy and NeuroAnatomy.
    Don't think this is a fair comaprison, NDs approach is not so much pathology, as far as correcting physiology at functional physiological basis, while MDs especially surgery is at pathological basis.

    You can't compare ACEI to any herb or neutraceuticals that's not the point here At first I was VERY skeptical of NDs, but few of my friends went back to NUHS to get the ND degree, and educated me about what they do...As I'm entering my R4



    Quote Originally Posted by axiomofchoice View Post
    aanmc.org compares the MD and ND degree: "a 2010 course comparison of the University of Washington’s (UW) MD program and Bastyr University’s ND program shows that during the first two years, UW MD students complete a total of 150 credits and Bastyr ND students complete 151.5 credits, most of them in comparable biomedical and diagnostic science courses."

    By that logic you could say: ACE inhibitors, which are pills, decrease mortality, therefore if you take [insert random naturopathic med here] which is also a pill, you get the same benefit....

    NUHS-AUC- please tell us your education in the basic sciences at NUHS was comparable to the one you received at AUC.

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    benevolo is offline Member 520 points
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUHS-AUC View Post
    Are you in a licensed state ? if not that naturopath is not a real Licensed ND, that attended 4 years ND school.
    I'm from a Canadian province that regulates and licenses naturopaths.

    This is the ONLY legitimate organziation of NDs in the US:
    American Association of Naturopathic Physicians
    Here are some treatments endorsed by the AANP:

    1. Treatment of the acute stroke patient for at least 20 minutes with an "ice-cold compress ... over the carotid arteries under the jaw bone on the neck" (which "may even abort the stroke") and subtle energy medicine.[25] The author of these recommendations is listed as a "senior editor of the Journal of Naturopathic Medicine, the official publication of the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians."

    2. Asthma - Condemnation of the use of inhaled corticosteroids, SABAs and LABAs instead advocating hydrogen peroxide baths to 'infuse oxygen through the skin' (paraphrased). Seriously...did they teach you that oxygenation can occur through the skin in your naturopath physiology course? Did naturopathic school teach you that the pathophysiology behind asthma was a deficiency of oxygen? And this will get at the 'root' cause of asthma?

    3. HIV/AIDS - Condemnation of HAART in place of using St. John's wort, garlic, accupuncture, digestive enzymes.

    4. Warnings against proven medical and surgical treatments for hypertension, hyperlipidemia, and atherosclerosis, while instead recommending herbs and EDTA chelation.[22]
    Last edited by benevolo; 02-19-2012 at 08:10 PM.

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    NUHS-AUC is offline Permanently Banned 535 points
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    Naturopathic Medicine

    LOL, don't think your AANP references are correct, couldn't find ANY references to what you are posting, this is a double edge sward, same can be said on medicine & surgery.

    FYI, most EDTA practitioners that I know are MDs not NDs, the NDs that I talk to, don't advise against ANY medications, on the controrary, they support meds, and vaccinations, as long as risks benefits are explained to the patient, in addition to advocating preventive medicine.

    What's your level of education so far ? and exposure to ND studies ? I've been trained on both ends (as a DC & MD) to state there is a need for both, medicine doesn't have all the answers, and as we all know, our nutrition courses in Medical school were VERY limited. (and I'm being generous.)

    It is ok to be skeptic, but, it is not ok to be ignorant.



    Quote Originally Posted by benevolo View Post
    I'm from a Canadian province that regulates and licenses naturopaths.



    Here are some treatments endorsed by the AANP:

    1. Treatment of the acute stroke patient for at least 20 minutes with an "ice-cold compress ... over the carotid arteries under the jaw bone on the neck" (which "may even abort the stroke") and subtle energy medicine.[25] The author of these recommendations is listed as a "senior editor of the Journal of Naturopathic Medicine, the official publication of the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians."

    2. Asthma - Condemnation of the use of inhaled corticosteroids, SABAs and LABAs instead advocating hydrogen peroxide baths to 'infuse oxygen through the skin' (paraphrased). Seriously...did they teach you that oxygenation can occur through the skin in your naturopath physiology course? Did naturopathic school teach you that the pathophysiology behind asthma was a deficiency of oxygen? And this will get at the 'root' cause of asthma?

    3. HIV/AIDS - Condemnation of HAART in place of using St. John's wort, garlic, accupuncture, digestive enzymes.

    4. Warnings against proven medical and surgical treatments for hypertension, hyperlipidemia, and atherosclerosis, while instead recommending herbs and EDTA chelation.[22]

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