Thread: Naturopathic Doctors as Primary Care Physicians

Seems that NDs are progressing forward with scope expansion, and whole health approach, similar to what happened to DOs back in the 70s...Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges - Naturopathic Physicians Are Primary Care Providers

http://www.cnpbc.bc.ca/PDF-2010/SLC....2023.09.10.pdf

In BC, NDs have broad scope and can prescribe drugs:
College of Naturopathic Physicians of British Columbia - CNPBC

Originally Posted by NUHS-AUC

http://www.cnpbc.bc.ca/PDF-2010/SLC....s 23.09.10.pdf

In BC, NDs have broad scope and can prescribe drugs:
College of Naturopathic Physicians of British Columbia - CNPBC

This is the result of aggressive lobbying by Naturopathic groups and one of the scariest examples of uninformed legislation that I know of. I think most naturopaths are smart enough not to prescribe medciations, but I've heard from colleagues who have seen patients in clinic who were prescribed completely inappropriate medications by naturopaths trying to play doctor. This is frightening stuff.

See this article, with full references at the end, for tons of examples of how quackery is rampant and pervasive in naturopathic 'medicine'. Medscape: Medscape Access

I hate to put down your prior profession, but if you really are an MD then how can you justify the above things that are publicized by leaders in your field? How can a legitimate medical profession say things like that and claim that they teach their students real medicine that is comparable to an MD's? I really wish you could prove me wrong because it bothers me to think this is going on.

And I agree with you 100% that nutrition teaching in med school is virtually non-existant. That's okay, that's why I will refer my patients to a dietician if I feel it is appropriate. I wouldn't refer to a naturopath because I don't know how much of their nutrition education is legitimate and science-based, and how much is muddled with the kinds of quackery their medical teaching has.

I hear you , and I'm glad you follow EBM as you should....
However
There is good and bad in every profession, I've seen some MDs that shouldn't be licensed, and some NDs that made alot of sense in their approach to health.

I did an oncology rotation at CTCA, and discussed few concerns I had with NDs, regarding Naturopathic Medicine. Dietitians while are properly trained on basic "Diet" are poorly trained in primary care, here is an example:
Naturopath vs. Dietitian: What Can I Eat to Combat Fatigue?

Reason why I am pro naturopathic medicine: because I am a patient and still going to see a naturopathic doctor, I was diagnosed with IBS, and was taking TCA and Metamucil for YEARS....I was VERY skeptics of NDs, until while in DC school, went to see an ND, that confirmed a state of dysbiosis, and leaky gut
Leaky gut syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I was "prescribed", L-Glutamine, Probiotics, and was advised against dairy and meat products, in addition to other dietary modifications...within 3 months I was symptoms free....until today....and FYI, was seeing a dietitian for years prior, whom said she couldn't find anything wrong with my diet, since I was following the typical pyramid......

Also, found there is a solid movement by Dr. Andrew Weil, MD "Integrative Medicine" that embrace much of what NDs are doing....
Home: Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine

Originally Posted by benevolo

And I agree with you 100% that nutrition teaching in med school is virtually non-existant. That's okay, that's why I will refer my patients to a dietician if I feel it is appropriate. I wouldn't refer to a naturopath because I don't know how much of their nutrition education is legitimate and science-based, and how much is muddled with the kinds of quackery their medical teaching has.

Originally Posted by NUHS-AUC

I hear you , and I'm glad you follow EBM as you should....
However
There is good and bad in every profession, I've seen some MDs that shouldn't be licensed, and some NDs that made alot of sense in their approach to health.

I did an oncology rotation at CTCA, and discussed few concerns I had with NDs, regarding Naturopathic Medicine. Dietitians while are properly trained on basic "Diet" are poorly trained in primary care, here is an example:
Naturopath vs. Dietitian: What Can I Eat to Combat Fatigue?

Reason why I am pro naturopathic medicine: because I am a patient and still going to see a naturopathic doctor, I was diagnosed with IBS, and was taking TCA and Metamucil for YEARS....I was VERY skeptics of NDs, until while in DC school, went to see an ND, that confirmed a state of dysbiosis, and leaky gut
Leaky gut syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I was "prescribed", L-Glutamine, Probiotics, and was advised against dairy and meat products, in addition to other dietary modifications...within 3 months I was symptoms free....until today....and FYI, was seeing a dietitian for years prior, whom said she couldn't find anything wrong with my diet, since I was following the typical pyramid......

Also, found there is a solid movement by Dr. Andrew Weil, MD "Integrative Medicine" that embrace much of what NDs are doing....
Home: Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine

While I'm glad you are feeling better, I again have to be skeptical about the nebulous diagnosis you were given. While leaky gut syndrome might be a real thing, it looks like it hasn't ever been established as a legitimate condition. That said, at the end of the day, you are feeling better and that's the most important part regardless of whatever was causing your problem.

I would be hesitant for people to have an NP as a primary care doctor, because their differential diagnosis for any problem is skewed towards all of their random unproven naturopath conditions that they have learned in school, and they lack the proper medical training to diagnose proven medical problems. As consultants, I would feel comfortable referring you to a naturopath if I had done an extensive workup and couldn't help you, as long as it wouldn't hit your wallet too heavily and they weren't doing things that were harming, not helping you.

Originally Posted by benevolo

While I'm glad you are feeling better, I again have to be skeptical about the nebulous diagnosis you were given. While leaky gut syndrome might be a real thing, it looks like it hasn't ever been established as a legitimate condition. That said, at the end of the day, you are feeling better and that's the most important part regardless of whatever was causing your problem.

I would be hesitant for people to have an NP as a primary care doctor, because their differential diagnosis for any problem is skewed towards all of their random unproven naturopath conditions that they have learned in school, and they lack the proper medical training to diagnose proven medical problems. As consultants, I would feel comfortable referring you to a naturopath if I had done an extensive workup and couldn't help you, as long as it wouldn't hit your wallet too heavily and they weren't doing things that were harming, not helping you.

I find that many of you base your opinions on a bad/poor experience with a naturopathic doctor. The fact that you think our medical training in the area of diagnosis is lacking, is not surprising (common, repetitive crap everyone says on here). First, when was the last time you attended an accredited naturopathic medical school? Exactly, you haven't. Assumptions are a poor measurement of efficacy, but great for determining ignorance. UNTIL YOU ENROL IN AN ACTUAL ND PROGRAM you don't know jack all. The majority of people making comments on here are from the United States, this needs to be pointed out, you are a huge nation, you have 50+ states, your population eats up Canada, only around 15 states licensed for naturopathic medicine, you have a ton of bullpooh pooh schools selling bullpooh pooh degrees, SO OBVIOUSLY this results in people claiming that they are NDs,without any real clinical training at all. Many of you bring this up,over and over again, that there is a ton of NDs who are not actually real NDs, maybe if you started raising this concern to your governments and not rant about it on here you could get more state licensure for NDs and prevent fake NDs from practicing.

How many of you actual attend ND conferences??? Very little, if you want to hear about real naturopathic medicine, not the stereotypical pooh pooh you hear about "detoxing" and "homeopathy( which by the way more than 75% of NDs do not even BOTHER WITH, but you wouldn't know that!!!)" check the AANP annual conventions out, 9 out of 10 people will change their mind about naturopathic medicine.

Many of you claim that are little opportunities for NDs, that is some **. There is always oppoturnity for anything...period. Just like anything, experience and expertise will get you good patient contact. If you don't have the networking ability and right buisness plan than you will struggle. Im not wasting 100k on educating myself so I can finger my ***, I did it because, this is what the health care system needs, and i have long thought about this before stepping to the plate. Sitting at your desk all day doing, playing around with a stethascope and a pen/pad is not making a different in societies health. Residencies in naturopathic medicine are also slowly increasing (they sure the hell are). Pretty much the standard for a two year residency is 90k cap for the two years (this can pay off a good chunk of your tuition), which is not terrible for a residency. Here at CCNM, its 40k a year. And just as a side note, the last time I checked the US ranks around 30th in life expectancy for a nation that claims to be one the most medically advanced, pretty sad IMO.

EBM hasn't got any of us very far, especially in terms of pharmaceuticals. If you want evidence of this, I can surely provide.

"The bottom line is that you are in a school and profession that spends the majority of its time teaching alternative medicine that is not evidence based or even based in our understanding of how the body works." -benevolo the moron

Were you kidding? HAHAHAHAHA, you do know that NPLEX1 is pretty much taken from USMLE 1 right? NPLEX2 will have its differences but it will also have its similarities. What do you think we learn in our school besides magic??? When i'm doing a physical on a patient, do you think I sit them down and start meditating?? HAHAHA, I don't know why I even come to read pooh pooh on here it is such a waste of my life.

NUHS-AUC - I appreciate your positive insights into naturopathic medicine, I hope to work with MDs in my future practice, with a mindset like yours.

"discover what will destroy life, and you are a great man, - what will prolong it and you are titled as an imposter"
Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine - Student ( cand 2015)
DHC - Master Herbalist
UofM B.Sc Major Human Nutrition & Nutraceuticals

Originally Posted by KinghND2015

SO OBVIOUSLY this results in people claiming that they are NDs,without any real clinical training at all. Many of you bring this up,over and over again, that there is a ton of NDs who are not actually real NDs, maybe if you started raising this concern to your governments and not rant about it on here you could get more state licensure for NDs and prevent fake NDs from practicing.

Nope. Had someone in my province of Canada, a licensed naturopath, give a guy with severe congestive heart failure sodium for his facial droop (which is apparently caused by low sodium). Almost killed him. That demonstrates the complete idiocy of your 'profession' on so many levels that I don't know where to begin. Do you know the differential diagnosis for a facial droop? Do you know the differential diagnosis and management of hyponatremia? Do you know the difference between hyponatremia and actually having low sodium? Do you know the pathophysiology of congestive heart failure, and appropriate management? The doc involved did not know any of these things, but is a licensed naturopath.

How many of you actual attend ND conferences??? Very little, if you want to hear about real naturopathic medicine, not the stereotypical pooh pooh you hear about "detoxing" and "homeopathy( which by the way more than 75% of NDs do not even BOTHER WITH, but you wouldn't know that!!!)"

Hmmm...if all you are is a hammer, then everything is a nail to you. Read your yellowpages, tell me how many naturopath doctors dont advertise detox and homeopathy and chelation therapy and using magical 'biomagnetic electric analysis device' tools for diagnosing 'bad qi'. I hear the ads all the time on the radio. And these guys want to be considered real doctors.

Were you kidding? HAHAHAHAHA, you do know that NPLEX1 is pretty much taken from USMLE 1 right? NPLEX2 willhave its differences but it will also have its similarities. What do you think we learn in our school besides magic??? When i'm doing a physical on a patient, do you think I sit them down and start meditating?? HAHAHA, I don't know why I even come to read pooh pooh on here it is such a waste of my life.

I would love to see you do a physical exam. I would also love to see you sit down and try to write the USMLE. Something tells me you would find it a little more difficult than you would imagine. If you are that good, let's find a public chat room and watch you answer Step 1 or Step 2 questions at you live so you dont have time to research the answers.

I admit that I have never actually met a naturopath personally, but your colleagues are not doing a good job representing your service with the ads I see on TV, or the patients I see come into the ED after a naturopath almost killed them. Prove me wrong.

No need to be offensive to any profession,

Just please don't fail to acknowledge that MANY of our MDs colleagues are now marketing ourselves as "Integrative" even-though we had NO TRAINING once or ever in clinical nutrition, Botanicals, or lifestyle changes. (Not nearly as much as NDs or DCs)

Naturopaths & Chiropractors were the pioneers, and lately due to HMOs and insurance limitations, and honestly this is what the public truly wants, are adding "Integrative" services to our vocab.

Here are some examples of MDs that do support NDs:
What Is Integrative Medicine? - YouTube

Dr. Mehmet Oz accepts honorary degree from Bastyr University - YouTube

I would appreciate if you can support your claim of the "ND" incident, I have failed to read anything of that nature.

As MDs we need to be scientific and skeptic, yes, but also keep an open mind !

Originally Posted by benevolo

Nope. Had someone in my province of Canada, a licensed naturopath, give a guy with severe congestive heart failure sodium for his facial droop (which is apparently caused by low sodium). Almost killed him. That demonstrates the complete idiocy of your 'profession' on so many levels that I don't know where to begin. Do you know the differential diagnosis for a facial droop? Do you know the differential diagnosis and management of hyponatremia? Do you know the difference between hyponatremia and actually having low sodium? Do you know the pathophysiology of congestive heart failure, and appropriate management? The doc involved did not know any of these things, but is a licensed naturopath.



Hmmm...if all you are is a hammer, then everything is a nail to you. Read your yellowpages, tell me how many naturopath doctors dont advertise detox and homeopathy and chelation therapy and using magical 'biomagnetic electric analysis device' tools for diagnosing 'bad qi'. I hear the ads all the time on the radio. And these guys want to be considered real doctors.


I would love to see you do a physical exam. I would also love to see you sit down and try to write the USMLE. Something tells me you would find it a little more difficult than you would imagine. If you are that good, let's find a public chat room and watch you answer Step 1 or Step 2 questions at you live so you dont have time to research the answers.

I admit that I have never actually met a naturopath personally, but your colleagues are not doing a good job representing your service with the ads I see on TV, or the patients I see come into the ED after a naturopath almost killed them. Prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by NUHS-AUC

I would appreciate if you can support your claim of the "ND" incident, I have failed to read anything of that nature.

http://findanaturopath.com/661/
Westmount naturopath on trial for criminal negligence causing death | CTV Montreal
http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...b=MontrealHome

Agreed, thank you and point taken,

That ND actually BROKE the LAW, she practiced in an unlicensed state/province, AND delivered an IV procedure, to a high risk patient, in an outpatient setting. No idea why or what she was thinking at the time, but, we can't judge an entire profession based on one's error and omission.

She was surely at fault, and that incident could have been prevented, really sad indeed !

There are malpractice and liability issues in any healthcare profession !

Originally Posted by Mourning Cloak

Dr. Mitra Javanmardi, Naturopath in Westmount, Quebec
Westmount naturopath on trial for criminal negligence causing death | CTV Montreal
Disturbing testimony at naturopath's trial | CTV Montreal