Sponsored Links
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    NUHS-AUC is offline Permanently Banned 535 points
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Multiple Accounts
    Posts
    195
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Opinions on Naturopathic "Medicine"

    Naturopathic "Medicine" is it really an approved "medicine"

    Wondering to hear from MDs or DOs or any professional out there, if they would refer their patients to a Naturopath (that attended 4 years Naturopathic accredited school )
    Also, opinion about Naturopathy, i.e.

    1. Do you consider "Naturopathy" a form of quackary ?
    2. is it a legitimate profession ?
    3. Should NDs have access to Prescription drugs ? etc...

    Thanks !

  2. #11
    NUHS-AUC is offline Permanently Banned 535 points
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Multiple Accounts
    Posts
    195
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Advertisements



    Most MDs that I know of, respect NDs more than DCs. I know some MDs that went back to get their ND degree as well.

    NDs broad scope, diverse approach to health is not as narrow minded as straight DCs ("Subluxation is the cause of disease") at least NDs acknowledge that our body is so complex, that a "corrective" adjustment is not "enough".... medicine is not as easy

    Many Mixed DCs or EBM DCs practice similar to NDs, however, the "Straights (mainly from: Palmer, Life, Cleveland, Sherman grads) ruin the profession for the rest EBM DCs out there...

  3. #12
    CARICOM-MED is offline Permanently Banned 529 points
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Multiple Accounts
    Posts
    1,236
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Many states are now licensing NDs as "sub-Primary Care" which means NDs CAN work as GPs, however with many limitations, insurance coverage is a major obstacle, in addition to limited scope of practice.
    I've seen some MD/ND or DO/ND even ND/PA that are integrating it all VERY well....but as stand alone ND, would be good if in licensed state with broad scope of practice, like AZ or WA.
    Last edited by CARICOM-MED; 04-05-2012 at 02:51 PM.

  4. #13
    numbershacker is offline Member 518 points
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    157
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by UHSADOC View Post
    Many states are now licensing NDs as "sub-Primary Care" which means NDs CAN work as GPs, however with many limitations, insurance coverage is a major obstacle, in addition to limited scope of practice.
    I've seen some MD/ND or DO/ND even ND/PA that are integrating it all VERY well....but as stand alone ND, would be good if in licensed state with broad scope of practice, like AZ or WA.
    If anyone is considering an ND, I would STRONGLY suggest considering getting an MD or DO as well if they possibly can-even if they have no immediate desire to practice under a medical license. Many straight ND's could not pass the USMLE if their lives depended on it. However, there is a block of those that could-and some of them could do VERY well-and they almost all strike me as very frustrated at being lumped in with the ND's that have more limited scientific knowledge.

    There are some straight ND's with limited science knowledge that do VERY well. Generally they are people that excel in patient counseling skills. The MD/ND folks out there seem to have real respect among other ND's though. If you are considering an ND: getting an MD-even if it is an offshore ND, lets you validate your scientific knowledge. An MD opens a lot more non-clinical jobs than an ND does. Getting an MD at one of the less expenive schools plus and ND can be less expensive than getting an ND alone. You have to get your MD first though-or at least get to step 1 or it will take you much longer to get both degrees. ND schools will grant advanced standing for an MD-but not the reverse.

    Yes, insurance is going to be an issue if you practice naturopathy at all-even in Washington. However, it is clear to me that the ND/MD combination is pretty dang marketable.

    I have my reservations about parts of the ND curriculum(i.e. homeopathy). Their Herblism curriculum is VERY real though IMHO-and gives you a perspective on medicine that is beyond "corporate pornography". The ND nutrition courses are reasonable start-and better than what MD's get-but I'd personally want more advanced studies anyhow.
    ND's do tend to embrace stuff that is more experimental, traditionally based or simply not well studied. Still, malpractice insurance for ND's is much less than for MD's-which is interesting.


    One of the 3 most well read doctors I've ever met is an MD/ND.

  5. #14
    Rogue Naturopath.com is offline Newbie 510 points
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    4
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Naturopathic medicine is very legitimate. Their medical curriculum is just as difficult as an M.D.'s. Having completed PA school myself, which is no different than M.D. school, except shorter duration, they are all just as intense.

    I have completed 2 years of ND school at an accredited ND school. I left because the profession is attempting to take their treatment approach and apply it to a western based module of thinking whereby it chases diseased names which is nothing but a label to help doctors communicate to each other, to patients, and to bill insurances. But it has nothing to do with the cause of disease. In essence, ND's are being trained to give nutraceuticals and other natural forms of therapy to treat a symptoms. Granted, it's not with every problem, but for many. The only thing this is doing is treating symptoms with less caustic drugs and leaving the deeper imbalances not addressed. One of these deeper imbalances is the energetic aspect of the human being.

    We have no problem talking about "feeling the energy" of a place, person or situation. Physicists deal with it every day. Basic science and physics teach that everything in the universe is energy. However, when energy is brought into medicine where there is money exchanged for services, it's deemed quackery. How is that? This makes no sense. We are energetic beings but we can't harness that energy ourselves or be affected by it? Bottom line is medicine is big money, and Big Pharma knows this all to well. There is ethical ways to make a living, and unethical. What is happening in medicine is unethical. Furthermore, the system is broke. If you work in allopathic medicine, you know that no one gets better or off their medicines. Exceptions being if they put in the work themselves and change their diet and lifestyle, and that only helps people with early chronic disease. Otherwise, you take someone off medicine, the symptoms return.

    The world in which I live, many people have their disease process reversed. By following the natural laws of health - adequate sleep, hydration, diet, sunshine, emotional health, movement of bowels with activity (which are all root causes of disease), in conjunction with appropriate therapies and remedies, we are able to invoke the innate ability of the body to heal itself. The body is not incompetent as the system teaches in allopathic medicine. Why on earth would anyone of sound mind treat the body as though it was inept. Have we forgotten all about embryology, neuroanatomy, biochemistry, etc.? Is this really a fluke with no innate intelligence? Come on people.

    I myself had a debilitating shoulder injury that was unchanged for 7 months. Having worked in Orthopedics for 13 years, I would have been told to live with it, or to have arthroscopic surgery to evaluate it further. This is fact. After one self administered treatment of acupuncture, there was 80% improvement. After the 2nd, there was 100% improvement. I've had other things happen as well. This is common, it just isn't commonly heard about in your arena because it's one person after another believing information that they have no first hand knowledge of. It's nothing more than misinformation being circulated by people have no first hand knowledge. Honestly, does this sound like something a wise man would advise - to form opinion and state it as truth when you don't have first hand knowledge? Or do you think they would go find out for themselves?

    The fact is, naturopathic medicine works. However, the profession is losing it's authenticity and its healing power by allowing themselves to be sucked into the allopathic world that is dominated by insurances and government. Aside from that, the naturopathic profession is very diverse now. Being an ND tells me nothing about your philosophy of medicine, and that means everything. How you view the cause of imbalance or disease determines how you treat the problem. ND's can focus primarily on manipulative therapy, homeopathy, biotherapeutic drainage, applied kinesiology, mind body medicine, acupuncture, botanical medicine, etc. And often some dabble in several. Ultimately, you really have to know what the person's philosophy of what disease IS, and how they utilized their medicine to bring about homeostasis.

    Also, I will add that just because a school is not "accredited" or is considered a "diploma mill", it does not mean that it is inferior. Fact is, I left after my 2nd year because the philosophy of the profession didn't resonate with me. Having been a PA for 13 years, I was afforded the ability to pull the plug on something that didn't serve me well. Why pay 100K dollars to learn a style of medicine I don't care to practice? I have the clinical experience and I didn't need to gain it at this institution. Furthermore, I'm doing an extensive clinical externship with my mentor who is a world renowned physician in Biotherapeutic drainage and top notch ND. So, for someone to knock me because I didn't graduate an "accredited" program really has no idea of how much better my own path will have served me than the one the system laid before me. Also, as I am pursuing a degree in Chinese medicine, I really don't need the ND degree from an "accredited" college to practice medicine that is entrenched in naturopathic philosophy. I can do that under my Acupuncture license just as easily, and legally. The only thing I give up is the ability to write scripts which is a non-issue. Certainly not worth $100,000 which is what I would have paid for that ability by completing their program.

    Lastly, if this medicine was not as powerful as it is, I certainly would not be wasting my time learning it. Nor would allopathic medicine be attempting to integrate naturopathic medicine into their medicine. In fact, it is so effective, that there is now something called "integrative medicine", of which is what I already discussed - the merging of allopathic and naturopathic medicine (aka green allopathy). Hope this helps put a different perspective on ND's.

    Also, the online program that I will continue my education at is more naturopathic than what is being offered at the school. In fact, many of the uND's (un-D's) as they call them are probably just as good if not better than the ND's who are graduating from an "accredited" school. Surely something that would annoy someone who paid 5 times as much for an education to hear. The other

  6. #15
    Rogue Naturopath.com is offline Newbie 510 points
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    4
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by numbershacker View Post
    Many straight ND's could not pass the USMLE if their lives depended on it.
    Fact is, you couldn't pass the USMLE right now if your own life depended on it, and neither could anyone else in as little as a month after they studied for the exam. Perhaps you forgot medical school. USMLE and every other test is a cram session. And much of what you learn in medical school you never use. Treating a patient, effectively, is nothing like what is being taught. The entire system is an abysmal failure. Modern medicine physicians become myopic thinking that there is only a GI problem, only a CV problem, GYN problem, etc. It's the same old thing - refer to gastro, ortho, etc. There is very little understanding of how all function together. I'm at a complete loss of how blind the medical community is to this fact. And people are being harmed in the process. How about all the people who have been screwed for having fibromyalgia or CFS? Where is their apology? In standard fashion, people who have no "evidence" on a lab test get shunned as being psychosomatic. Then years later, there is "compelling evidence" to the contrary and now we have an acceptable diagnosis This absolutely unacceptable medical care, and it's negligent on top of it. Should I mention Ignez Semmelweis who was locked up for recommending that washing hands would lower post partum depression? How about doctors promoting smoking back in the day. Can you be any more off the mark? How about the Vioxx scandal? Unethical, do you think? Who exactly is pulling the strings here?

    We spend more money than any other country on health care and rank 37th according to the WHO. 90 billion spent on cancer and it's an epic failure. 90 billion more won't cure anything because cancer is a process. You can research thousands upon thousands of article as to the causes of cancer. How do you cure thousands of causes other than living a healthy lifestyle? Anyone who thinks there will be a cure for anything that is comes in an injection or a pill, as modern medicine would have you believe, has entirely missed the point of what health is. The idea that you can inject a cure into someone without changing the environment which affect how the cells divide and how the organism expresses is foolish. And in that regard, gene therapy will never work long term, given they live long enough, because the environment which affects how the cell divides will remain unchanged - most likely, because we know how non compliant patients are.
    Last edited by Rogue Naturopath.com; 07-26-2014 at 02:53 AM.

  7. #16
    Rogue Naturopath.com is offline Newbie 510 points
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    4
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by teratos View Post
    The problem is that a lot of the evidence is anecdotal. There are not many randomized studies on the effectiveness of the treatments, or on long-term outcomes. When allopaths are chanting the "evidence based medicine" mantra, it tough to get excited about this.
    You should buy the Textbook of Natural Medicine by Pizzorno and Nutritional Medicine by Gaby. They are filled with "evidence based medicine".

    Do you treat the patient or the machine/lab test/scan? They are supposed to teach on day 1 of medical school to treat the patient, not the machine, or in this case the study. Sure, studies provide us information, and invaluable information about physiology. But your stance is that a study is more important than understanding who the patient is which has the disease and the individualizing their treatment?

    There are so many factors which play a role in treatment that to pigeon hold everyone into the same treatment plan is failing to understand medical management. First, stress, genetics, polymorphisms, liver and kidney insufficency (unless you believe that labs tell you everything and that disease comes like a thief in the night), sugar intake, toxic burden from all xenobiotics, miasms (how effectively a person eliminates), their individual temperament, and genetics to name a few variables which studies don't take into account. You are going to put all your eggs into a snapshot moment of time with people from all different walks of life and all those different variables? Seriously?

    You can't measure one parameter and expect to understand the human body. It works great for physiologic function, but not treatment. Furthermore, to claim that anecdotal evidence is not good is like claiming that every experience you have as a human is invalid because there is no scientific proof. Ask yourself what it the purpose of life. Tell me what qualities you look for in a person. Would you dare say that any of your answers does not lie at the core of what it is to be a human being? Find proof that any of your answers exist. You can't. You can't measure or prove scientifically that love exists, courage, loyalty, and certainly not your own derived meaning of life. So, this whole anecdotal evidence is hogwash.

    Furthermore, as a physician, you practice near complete anecdotal evidence, which is your own evidence. You mean to tell me that if you practiced medicine and you have a 90% success rate of treating something your way, but a journal comes out and says that another approach is superior, but yet is not for you, that you will go practice "evidence" based medicine as dictated by a journal?

    By they way, I had a debilitating shoulder injury unchanged for 7 months. After 2 sessions of acupuncture (which has been called all kinds of quackery) I had full recovery. I guess that means an amazing placebo affect took place? Or perhaps it was all psycho somatic? The entire bullying which is displayed by the allopathic powers that be is nauseating an insulting. The only form of medicine which causes more harm than good is allopathic medicine - when treating anything other than emergencies. This is fact. Look at the health statistics and deaths.

    How is the cholesterol lowering working out? While we are driving cholesterol into the ground and causing hormones to be depleted down the pathway, the CVD fatalities are increasing. Perhaps cholesterol isn't the problem? My mentor just told me of a patient he had with Lyme disease who was on antibiotics for 16 years!! You think after 3 months maybe it would have been time to pull the plug? This type of gross negligence is profound in the allopathic community. People need to be more open minded because allopathic medicine can't treat chronic disease. It's impossible. It violates natural law. Answer this: How does allopathic medicine strengthen the body? How does it remove obstacles to cure? How does it correct underlying imbalances? I never knew anyone with a headache who had an aspirin deficiency, have you? The philosophy of what disease is, is wrong. Therefore, the treatment is wrong. There the needle goes, the thread follows.

  8. #17
    longview is offline Newbie 510 points
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    8
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Amen. I have been considering Naturopathic Medical School myself, but I understand everything you are saying. Could you tell me the online progaram you are discussing? I received some literature from Trinity, but I am not sure how to leverage such an education into a career. Thanks for any information.

  9. #18
    Rogue Naturopath.com is offline Newbie 510 points
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    4
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Paving a Career

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    Amen. I have been considering Naturopathic Medical School myself, but I understand everything you are saying. Could you tell me the online progaram you are discussing? I received some literature from Trinity, but I am not sure how to leverage such an education into a career. Thanks for any information.
    It is interesting to read comments from people who don't practice natural medicine and merely puppet what they hear. Stay away from advice from these people! It's analogous to listening to the mainstream news for health information, or anyone in modern medicine. These people don't understand health what so ever.

    First, many people practice naturopathic medicine. The fact that ND's are not licensed in every state is rather trivial. There's 17 states or so that are licensed. The reason many graduates fail to practices is that they have no idea of how to market themselves. When you are an ND, most don't deal with insurances, and for good reason. This means no one is 'dropping' patients off at your door step like an MD. You have the personality of a wet mop and you will still get patients in the allopathic field. Not when you have to market yourself. That puts a whole new spin on success. I also find that there is a fairly good percentage of ND's who go into the medicine to figure out what is wrong with themselves and that is top priority, not practicing, although, it 'sounds' like a pretty good/cool thing, too. But sounding cool and making it happen are two different animals.

    I think the way to go is to get a degree in acupuncture (LAc). You can still practice naturopathic medicine (ie. philosophy) under your LAc. In reality, it's all about philosophy anyhow. How you view disease and what causes it determines your treatment. If you think it is all about abnormal genes like allopathy, then you have drugs and you render the patient powerless. If you view disease like I do, then you give the patient the power and you use modalities to enable the body to align itself with the innate intelligence of the universe and it can heal itself. I mean....microscopic egg and sperm --> human body? And people can't grasp the innate intelligence? My, how people have gotten nothing out of medical school!

    Point of all that is that it doesn't matter what your degree is. There are some MD's who are better naturopaths than NDs, and vice verse. Granted, as an LAc, you can't do manipulation as an ND, but honestly, many won't do it anyhow beacause it's not what they gravitated towards. However, using tuina, a form of body work, you can still "manipulate". It's all in how you phrase things. You must be an ND to start IV's and write scripts. However, many people don't care about using IV's nor do they want to write scripts. Although, with the new direction and philsophy of the profession, many more are. And this isn't to say that it's a bad thing. If you have a patient coming to you on many meds, it is a nice thing to just take over their care without sending them back to the same system which failed them to get a refill, and pay the copay. So, it's a matter of figuring out what you want as a provider. For me, spending 100K to be able to write scripts wasn't worth it. While it would be nice to not inconvenience the patient to send them back to their allopath for their refills, it wasn't me who made the decisions in lifestyle which brought them into my office. After thinking of it in those terms, I wasn't going to pay 100K for their choices. The other thing is that I didn't really care to be mixing with drugs that have nasty side effects. So, again...all comes down your own philosophy of how you wish to treat people.

    The LAc is a rather inexpensive degree to get. It allows you to practice medicine. If I were you, I would look into biotherapeutic drainage. It's largely unknown, but powerful medicine. I'm slowly putting up case studies of patients on my site. Check it out. Using this with acupuncture, and naturopathic (natural) medicine is a powerful combo. You should read Nature Cure by Henry Lindlahr. 1st or 2nd ed. Feel free to contact me through my website along your journey, and I would be more than happy to provide any information or advice I can. Just remember, the medicine works. If it doesn't, then the diagnosis is wrong, the provider isn't doing something right, or the patient is no compliant. But never doubt the medicine despite all the non sense these people spew who have no understanding of health.

  10. #19
    longview is offline Newbie 510 points
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    8
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Naturopath.com View Post
    It is interesting to read comments from people who don't practice natural medicine and merely puppet what they hear. Stay away from advice from these people! It's analogous to listening to the mainstream news for health information, or anyone in modern medicine. These people don't understand health what so ever.

    First, many people practice naturopathic medicine. The fact that ND's are not licensed in every state is rather trivial. There's 17 states or so that are licensed. The reason many graduates fail to practices is that they have no idea of how to market themselves. When you are an ND, most don't deal with insurances, and for good reason. This means no one is 'dropping' patients off at your door step like an MD. You have the personality of a wet mop and you will still get patients in the allopathic field. Not when you have to market yourself. That puts a whole new spin on success. I also find that there is a fairly good percentage of ND's who go into the medicine to figure out what is wrong with themselves and that is top priority, not practicing, although, it 'sounds' like a pretty good/cool thing, too. But sounding cool and making it happen are two different animals.

    I think the way to go is to get a degree in acupuncture (LAc). You can still practice naturopathic medicine (ie. philosophy) under your LAc. In reality, it's all about philosophy anyhow. How you view disease and what causes it determines your treatment. If you think it is all about abnormal genes like allopathy, then you have drugs and you render the patient powerless. If you view disease like I do, then you give the patient the power and you use modalities to enable the body to align itself with the innate intelligence of the universe and it can heal itself. I mean....microscopic egg and sperm --> human body? And people can't grasp the innate intelligence? My, how people have gotten nothing out of medical school!

    Point of all that is that it doesn't matter what your degree is. There are some MD's who are better naturopaths than NDs, and vice verse. Granted, as an LAc, you can't do manipulation as an ND, but honestly, many won't do it anyhow beacause it's not what they gravitated towards. However, using tuina, a form of body work, you can still "manipulate". It's all in how you phrase things. You must be an ND to start IV's and write scripts. However, many people don't care about using IV's nor do they want to write scripts. Although, with the new direction and philsophy of the profession, many more are. And this isn't to say that it's a bad thing. If you have a patient coming to you on many meds, it is a nice thing to just take over their care without sending them back to the same system which failed them to get a refill, and pay the copay. So, it's a matter of figuring out what you want as a provider. For me, spending 100K to be able to write scripts wasn't worth it. While it would be nice to not inconvenience the patient to send them back to their allopath for their refills, it wasn't me who made the decisions in lifestyle which brought them into my office. After thinking of it in those terms, I wasn't going to pay 100K for their choices. The other thing is that I didn't really care to be mixing with drugs that have nasty side effects. So, again...all comes down your own philosophy of how you wish to treat people.

    The LAc is a rather inexpensive degree to get. It allows you to practice medicine. If I were you, I would look into biotherapeutic drainage. It's largely unknown, but powerful medicine. I'm slowly putting up case studies of patients on my site. Check it out. Using this with acupuncture, and naturopathic (natural) medicine is a powerful combo. You should read Nature Cure by Henry Lindlahr. 1st or 2nd ed. Feel free to contact me through my website along your journey, and I would be more than happy to provide any information or advice I can. Just remember, the medicine works. If it doesn't, then the diagnosis is wrong, the provider isn't doing something right, or the patient is no compliant. But never doubt the medicine despite all the non sense these people spew who have no understanding of health.
    Thank you for the info and advice. I will take a look at your site, and look into your suggestions. Thank you.

  11. #20
    Sawank is offline Junior Member 511 points
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    48
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Naturopathy is based around maximizing your body’s immune system, which may include giving the body the tools it needs to fight off disease and stay healthy.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. "Attended" Grace School of Medicine. Now applying for fellowships
    By bloodsaver in forum Main Foreign Medical Schools Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-28-2008, 07:51 AM
  2. "Cost U Less" - New "CostCo-Style" Store Opening Across The Street From SMU Campus
    By The Big Dance Is Coming in forum St. Matthews University School of Medicine
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-08-2007, 12:38 AM
  3. "Official" School of Medicine Schedule Change
    By cobra07 in forum St. Georges University School of Medicine
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-23-2007, 09:36 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-17-2006, 01:34 PM
  5. Summer School "Space Biology and Medicine"
    By Mikhail in forum News, Announcements & Polls
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-09-2004, 09:49 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •