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  1. #1
    dimsum is offline Newbie
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    lodz medical program

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    The school in Lodz isnt bad at all. I have a friend currently attending the school, and while he whines regularly that it's tough, he grudgingly accepts that medical schooling in itself is a tough thing. He's having a tough time, but he isnt unhappy about his choice. The school began an english medical program, and seems to be doing very well, despite just starting out.
    While many on this site lose no opportunity to denigrate schools theyve never seen, know little about, or have any first hand experience, I am here to say that the place is ok, and this is coming from students, rather than those "experts" who expound on every school imaginable, having never even set foot in these countries. When people leave such "i know everything" notes, it really damages their credibility.

  2. #2
    neilc is offline Permanently Banned
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    who exactly are you refering to?

    who exactly are you refering to? i mean, you are commenting, and it doesn't sound like you have set foot in the country...you have a "freind" there...

    well, i have several freinds who have left several schools in poland, and several more that went to the schools to check them out, either for transfer opportunities or before they came here. lets just say that nobody who has gone from here to poland has stayed there, and several have made the trip in the other direction.

    oh, and by the way, i have been to poland. those that speak about the eastern european countries on this board, for the most part, have lived here for a long time. we meet lots and lots of students from all over. it is not too difficult to get a fairly accurate idea of what is going on...

    so, sorry if you don't like the information. hopefully Lodz will do well for your freind. but, those of us on here are not just pulling things out of our butts to mislead folks. we gain nothing from doing that. rather, we recall what a difficult decision it is to travel abroad, we are familiar with the pitfalls that we were exposed to, and we have a better idea now of what is important in a school, and things to watch out for. the choice remains with the individual. i personally think it is generous of the many that have experience to donate there time and experience. ignore the information at your own risk.

  3. #3
    bayrider77 is offline Newbie
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    I'm at Lodz.

    Hi Guys, I've been reading what a terrible education I am getting from a Polish Medical School.. I'm at Lodz.
    It's a little perplexing that people in neighboring countries think they can freely make comments about all Polish Medical schools. You wouldnt want mexicans making comments about the USA, without having even been there, would ya? That's what i feel like, when i see all the guys from czech, hungary, bulgaria, rumania
    I'm at Lodz, and i will comment about Lodz. Not about the other polish schools, or the czech or hungarian schools.
    I'm sure theyre just as nice as theyve been described to be, but here's the deal with Lodz.
    Despite what I've read about Lodz on this site and SDN, I think it's serving me well. Everyone seems to know someone who failed out of lodz, or got kicked out, but the reality is as follows;
    The program is 100% US students. The curriculum is designed after the USMLE syllabus. .. How do I know this? Each week, all the faculty has a curriculum review meeting, and they all are given usmle/lcme schedules for teaching.
    I'm not here to argue that our program is the best in Europe, or that it is superior to any other program.
    I am only making the point that the school is here, there is absolutely no nonsense tolerated from students. The professors are very tough, academics are quite good. and the staff expect the world of us. To just sit here watching all this nonsense being splattered on these sites, has been a disappointing experience. If some of you guys hate certain polish schools, you should find the fortitude/courage to name them, rather than to blindly label all polish schools as bad.
    The students here at lodz laugh at some of the notes because a few of these notes wreak of jealosy. Lodz now has the biggest US clinicals program, period. So instead of trying to denigrate every other school. it would be better if you asked your faculties to develop similar US programs. Then you'd have the same opportunities that are being given to us....

  4. #4
    neilc is offline Permanently Banned
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    my take

    glad you are happy there.

    the issue is that the polish schools in general have earned a bad reputation. hopefully the lodz program will get you where you need to go and do well. i still find it hard to believe that a school in eastern europe can develop an accurate USMLE based curriculum. are the folks developing the curriculum licensed in the states?

    and, i think that the curriculum at the other schools is just fine. we certainly have ample opportunities to do clinicals in the states, and we are approved in all states.

    i do see what you mean about general statements. i don't know about your school specifically, so i will defer to your information. but, there are lots of reasons for people to be leary of the polish schools. don't blame us, blame the schools and agents for not delivering on promises.

    my major point is, if you hae to go to eastern europe, stick with the safe bets. it is difficult enough to come here. don't get involved with agents, don't bother with the programs that are not cali approved. there is no good reason, in my opinion, to do that. lodz may be breaking the mold of polish medical education, but even so, i don't want to be the guinea pig in any program.

  5. #5
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    re-read

    Hi.

    I've just re-read a number of my posts re: Slovakia and E. Europe in general and I don't think that many comment negatively on any school or country in particular. Rather my words of caution are aimed at former V-4 countries in general - aka post communist nations. I think the quality of education is very high and rigorous but the customer service is very low.

    And, I echo the sentiments that all things being equal (i.e. not having free rent, or a mother tongue in Polish, Czech, Hungarian etc.) then you should attend the school that you can get funding, recognition (from various states) and us clinical experience from.

    And, as I said earlier, those willing to go through what we do on a daily basis will succeed because we have the drive - and that includes you & your colleagues.

    Lastly, if you are from Poland it would be great to have you contribute to this site so people can hear your opinions and learn about your program - strengths and weaknesses to aid in their decision-making. We have active folks from other countries in the region, but I don't think so many from Poland.

    Certainly to those folks who pm me, I'm very frank about the pros and the cons about attending here. I have nothing to gain and only try to comment in a way that is in the others' best interest.

    Got to study for anatomy. And yes, they will make me repeat it if I get one insertion or origin wrong or mess up on one of the cortical pathways or nuclei. And I'm expected to know how many cm medially or laterally each pathway is in relation to an adjacent structure. Is this necessary for the usmle? Will I better a better doctor for it? Entirely irrelevant, this is what this school requires and in the summer I'll hit my FirstAid book to do the stuff I need for the States.

    Likely everyone in the region does the same.

    S-

  6. #6
    Miklos is offline Elite Member 511 points
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    I have some questions...

    Quote Originally Posted by bayrider77
    Hi Guys, I've been reading what a terrible education I am getting from a Polish Medical School.. I'm at Lodz.
    It's a little perplexing that people in neighboring countries think they can freely make comments about all Polish Medical schools. You wouldnt want mexicans making comments about the USA, without having even been there, would ya? That's what i feel like, when i see all the guys from czech, hungary, bulgaria, rumania
    I'm at Lodz, and i will comment about Lodz. Not about the other polish schools, or the czech or hungarian schools.
    I'm sure theyre just as nice as theyve been described to be, but here's the deal with Lodz.
    Despite what I've read about Lodz on this site and SDN, I think it's serving me well. Everyone seems to know someone who failed out of lodz, or got kicked out, but the reality is as follows;
    The program is 100% US students. The curriculum is designed after the USMLE syllabus. .. How do I know this? Each week, all the faculty has a curriculum review meeting, and they all are given usmle/lcme schedules for teaching.
    I'm not here to argue that our program is the best in Europe, or that it is superior to any other program.
    I am only making the point that the school is here, there is absolutely no nonsense tolerated from students. The professors are very tough, academics are quite good. and the staff expect the world of us. To just sit here watching all this nonsense being splattered on these sites, has been a disappointing experience. If some of you guys hate certain polish schools, you should find the fortitude/courage to name them, rather than to blindly label all polish schools as bad.
    The students here at lodz laugh at some of the notes because a few of these notes wreak of jealosy. Lodz now has the biggest US clinicals program, period. So instead of trying to denigrate every other school. it would be better if you asked your faculties to develop similar US programs. Then you'd have the same opportunities that are being given to us....
    1) For how long has the four year English program at Lodz been operating?

    2) Anyone can claim to teach to the USMLE using LCME curricula (plenty do so in Poland). What makes Lodz different? How many professors, teachers have North American medical degrees or have completed clinical residencies in North America? (not research fellowships; those don't count!)

    3) What is the USMLE Step 1 first time pass rate?

    4) What is the attrition rate for Lodz four year English program students?

    5) How many (4 year English program) students has Lodz placed into US residencies? Is this info on the web?

    6) Why is Lodz not recognized by the State of California?

    I for one would really like to know.

    BTW, I recommend against coming to schools in the region unless you have appropriate language/cultural skills and know what you are getting into.

  7. #7
    bayrider77 is offline Newbie
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    Miklos, please..

    1) For how long has the four year English program at Lodz been operating?
    [b]THIS IS THE THIRD YEAR, i'M SURE YOU'LL FIND REASONS WHY THAT IS REALLY BAD, AS COMPARED TO YOUR SCHOOL...
    2) Anyone can claim to teach to the USMLE using LCME curricula (plenty do so in Poland). What makes Lodz different? How many professors, teachers have North American medical degrees or have completed clinical residencies in North America? (not research fellowships; those don't count!)
    WELL, mIKLOS, IT'S NICE THAT YOU THINK THAT RESEARCH FELLOWSHIPS DONT COUNT. THATS PRETTY IMPRESSIVE THAT YOU AS A STUDENT, THINK THAT RESEARCH FELLOWSHIPS "DONT COUNT". aNY OTHER MIKLOSIAN RULES YOU'D LIKE TO IMPOSE ON UNIVERSITIES???
    We are seeing the program trying its best to do a good job, so we find it hard to criticize the efforts at our school. You seem to lose no opportunity to at schools in countries you probably have never even visited
    .
    3) What is the USMLE Step 1 first time pass rate?
    the english program is only 3 years old. Go ahead, miklos, tell the world why that's reaally baad, and why students should run away from polish schools.
    4) What is the attrition rate for Lodz four year English program students?
    The attrition rate is pretty low. Students are very well cared for atleast at lodz. i couldnt feed the antipolish school frenzy on this one.
    5) How many (4 year English program) students has Lodz placed into US residencies? Is this info on the web?
    The school is only 3 years old, so no, there are no grads of the english faculty in residency. The school doesnt look kindly on advanced student transfers into the program. I'm sure you'll find reasons to attack our school on this too.
    6) Why is Lodz not recognized by the State of California?
    [color=blue]Simple. our polish school in Lodz is fully recognized by California. The school is working on a california visit in the near future. As I'm sure you know by now, California has to re-approve english language medical programs, even though the native language programs are recognized.
    I hate to write negative/cynical notes like this, but the crap that you're putting up on these sites is just plain wrong. Period. You are clueless, and are grasping at straws, when you question programs that you know absolutely nothing about.
    LOL
    [/color]

  8. #8
    Miklos is offline Elite Member 511 points
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    Simple metrics

    Quote Originally Posted by bayrider77
    1) For how long has the four year English program at Lodz been operating?
    [b]THIS IS THE THIRD YEAR, i'M SURE YOU'LL FIND REASONS WHY THAT IS REALLY BAD, AS COMPARED TO YOUR SCHOOL...
    2) Anyone can claim to teach to the USMLE using LCME curricula (plenty do so in Poland). What makes Lodz different? How many professors, teachers have North American medical degrees or have completed clinical residencies in North America? (not research fellowships; those don't count!)
    WELL, mIKLOS, IT'S NICE THAT YOU THINK THAT RESEARCH FELLOWSHIPS DONT COUNT. THATS PRETTY IMPRESSIVE THAT YOU AS A STUDENT, THINK THAT RESEARCH FELLOWSHIPS "DONT COUNT". aNY OTHER MIKLOSIAN RULES YOU'D LIKE TO IMPOSE ON UNIVERSITIES???
    We are seeing the program trying its best to do a good job, so we find it hard to criticize the efforts at our school. You seem to lose no opportunity to at schools in countries you probably have never even visited
    .
    3) What is the USMLE Step 1 first time pass rate?
    the english program is only 3 years old. Go ahead, miklos, tell the world why that's reaally baad, and why students should run away from polish schools.
    4) What is the attrition rate for Lodz four year English program students?
    The attrition rate is pretty low. Students are very well cared for atleast at lodz. i couldnt feed the antipolish school frenzy on this one.
    5) How many (4 year English program) students has Lodz placed into US residencies? Is this info on the web?
    The school is only 3 years old, so no, there are no grads of the english faculty in residency. The school doesnt look kindly on advanced student transfers into the program. I'm sure you'll find reasons to attack our school on this too.
    6) Why is Lodz not recognized by the State of California?
    [color=blue]Simple. our polish school in Lodz is fully recognized by California. The school is working on a california visit in the near future. As I'm sure you know by now, California has to re-approve english language medical programs, even though the native language programs are recognized.
    I hate to write negative/cynical notes like this, but the crap that you're putting up on these sites is just plain wrong. Period. You are clueless, and are grasping at straws, when you question programs that you know absolutely nothing about.
    LOL
    [/color]
    1) The program is three years old. Anyone attending it, is by definition a gineau pig.

    2) LCME/USMLE: This goes for all programs in Europe. How many faculty members have taken the USMLE? How many have passed? How many have a US license? In almost all cases, the answer (at least in this region) is none. Why? Anyone that passes the exam and gets postgraduate training in the US usually stays there. There are a few exceptions, but they are very rare. The reason research fellowships don't count is that a ton of faculty throughout Europe have participated in one. A research fellowship does not require a US license (and therefore nor the USMLE). It offers very little insight into the LCME curriculum.

    3) No USMLE pass rate, as the school is too young or won't publish the info. I'm not surprised (as to my knowledge), as no school in Europe actually cares to publish the unvarnished truth regarding this. I know of one school where the administration was very careful to collect evidence of the passes, while leaving out those who have failed. I believe that it is a big minus for anyone thinking of attending school in the region.

    4) No number, even though the program is young. I will freely tell you that the cumulative attrition rate at Hungarian six year English language programs can approach 50% (much of that happening in the first two years). Again, a simple metric that no school will publish.

    5) See #1.

    6) Any local language program that prepares its graduates for local service in an OECD country is recognized by California. This is nothing to brag about. So far, there are a grand total of three English language programs that are recognized in the region. None are in Poland.

    I don't wish to respond to the "substance" of your rant. Believe me, when I tell you that I am reasonably well-informed.

    Do me a favor and look at the metrics I posted on the ECFMG cert numbers awarded. For comparison's sake, take a look at the non-local citizen ECFMG certs awarded to graduates from Hungary and Poland in 2002.

    Hungary = 38
    Poland = 42

    Take a look at this information in the following light.

    1) Poland's population is roughly four (4x) times that of Hungary
    2) Poland has a number of four year English language progams, as well as a number of six year English programs. The four year programs are strictly for the North American marketplace and are overwhelmingly attended by US students.
    3) Hungary has a grand total of four medical schools, all of which have only six year English language programs.
    4) American students are a minority at Hungarian programs. The majority are Scandinavian and Middle Eastern students. The Scandinavians aim to return home, as do the overwhelming majority of Middle Easterners.

    Despite all this, in 2002, a total of 4 more non-locals graduates received ECFMG certs from Poland than Hungary. How do you explain this?

    (BTW, the other four year English language programs in Poland have been operating for longer than Lodz.)

  9. #9
    neilc is offline Permanently Banned
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    look..

    look, nobody is saying that your education sucks. what is being said is that 1) there have been issues with student satisfaction and quality of education at the 4 year polish programs before and 2) there is some significant risk attending one of these programs.

    now, lodz may be the latest and greatest thing to polish "us style" education, but the fact is the same thing has been tried before with mixed results. now, if lodz does prove to be great, it will be a good thing. but, the way things are now, it is wise to be skeptical. i also live in eastern europe, and i have been to a few other schools. i have seen several claims of USMLE curriculum, and they are never even close. i work with lots of profs that did research in the states. i work with very few that have passed the USMLE. there is a world of difference.

    again, glad you are happy there. but others may rightly be skeptical of the claims until you gather some results such as USMLE pass rates, residency placements, CA approval, etc...until then, there is no way to veryify all the claims of good usmle prep, etc..

  10. #10
    blujoo is offline Newbie
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    cali

    what is the big deal with cali approved programs. i realize that people are making a big deal about cali. aren't there several other states to work in? i know very competent and prominent doctors/researchers in the us who are not licensed in cali. so what? what about the other states??

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