12 things to avoid in a medical school

neilc · #1 (**permalink**) 09-04-2004, 11:08 AM

ok, with all the "10 things that..." posts out there, i thought i would jump in with mine.

he is a list of traits that i would look at carefully if i was a newbie, looking for a school. i am aware that many of you will look at this list and realize that your school may not fit in...and your school may well be on the way up. but, my point in this is that, unless you want to be a guinea pig, i would watch out for these 12 things. and, to be a guinea pig is just not neccesary. of the schools that don't meet these goals, i would bet several will not last, or will have severely limited choices for there grads, as far as where they can practice or whether they can get a decent residency. and, there is simply no good reason to take that risk.

so, without further ado...12 things avoid in an offshore med school.

1. <10 years of existence
2. >10 years of existence without any growth, or with a significant increase in restrictions (ie. lost loans, less states to work in, less clinical affiliations)
3. operates outside the country of charter
4. grads are unable to recieve unrestricted license in the country they studied in
5. poor or no history of residency placements
6. no fully licensed, practicing grads.
7. grads are banned from practicing in ANY state
8. students act as professors or faculty in any capacity beyond TA or tutoring.
9. a school that does not have its own clinical facilities OR does not have written affiliations for clinical education with facilities that are ACGME approved for all the core specialties (ie not just ACGME approved for FP, but approved for surg, im, ob/gyn, peds, psych)
10. a history of lying, deception, untoward advertising practices by its students or administration.
11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY
12. any school that has any part of its curriculum as internet based.

like i said before, some schools may not meet some of the minor criteria and still may be on the way up (saba and smu come to mind)...but, if you are a newbie, i would think that the safe bet is to go to the schools that have no negatives based on this list. if you cannot get into any of those schools (trust me, you can get into one of them, at least...) then maybe consider the younger schools that are actively working on approval and don't have any of the other negatives.

wolfvgang22 · #2 (**permalink**) 09-04-2004, 01:14 PM

Just wanted to say "thanks for the good post" before you get flamed...
Have a great day!

neilc · #3 (**permalink**) 09-04-2004, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfvgang22

Just wanted to say "thanks for the good post" before you get flamed...
Have a great day!

don't worry, i have my flame suit on!

i don't really mean to get people all riled up, just to provide a little something for those new students out there to get them thinking a bit. it is tough when you really want to go to school, and these schools/students are working so hard to sell themselves to you. it is so easy to fall for it.

october · #4 (**permalink**) 09-04-2004, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilc

ok, with all the "10 things that..." posts out there, i thought i would jump in with mine.

he is a list of traits that i would look at carefully if i was a newbie, looking for a school. i am aware that many of you will look at this list and realize that your school may not fit in...and your school may well be on the way up. but, my point in this is that, unless you want to be a guinea pig, i would watch out for these 12 things. and, to be a guinea pig is just not neccesary. of the schools that don't meet these goals, i would bet several will not last, or will have severely limited choices for there grads, as far as where they can practice or whether they can get a decent residency. and, there is simply no good reason to take that risk.

so, without further ado...12 things avoid in an offshore med school.

1. <10 years of existence
2. >10 years of existence without any growth, or with a significant increase in restrictions (ie. lost loans, less states to work in, less clinical affiliations)
3. operates outside the country of charter
4. grads are unable to recieve unrestricted license in the country they studied in
5. poor or no history of residency placements
6. no fully licensed, practicing grads.
7. grads are banned from practicing in ANY state
8. students act as professors or faculty in any capacity beyond TA or tutoring.
9. a school that does not have its own clinical facilities OR does not have written affiliations for clinical education with facilities that are ACGME approved for all the core specialties (ie not just ACGME approved for FP, but approved for surg, im, ob/gyn, peds, psych)
10. a history of lying, deception, untoward advertising practices by its students or administration.
11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY
12. any school that has any part of its curriculum as internet based.

All in all a well intentioned post but let me comment/elaborate

#1 at one point SGU, Ross, etc, etc, were just starting also and lacked many of your above items on the list.

Many of those big five schools send students to another country for clinicals. Is that not learning outside of the country of charter?

States trying to ban FMG's is nothing new. Multiple states have tried to deny licensure to grads of MANY countries including old european schools, asian schools, etc etc. Needing to get counsel in order to obtain licensure is nothing new.

As far as students teaching in order to make ends meet I do not know what the problem is as long as teaching is limited as to not interfere with studies. I knew a Phd that was teaching at Baylor Medical College. What would be wrong with that person teaching at a non us medical school?

11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY

This is a matter of semantics. In as much as Charles may not have official so called agents, your participation on this forum and link to Charles U accomplishes much of the same an agent would.

www.firstfaculty.com = apply on line

azskeptic · #5 (**permalink**) 09-04-2004, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by october

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilc

ok, with all the "10 things that..." posts out there, i thought i would jump in with mine.

he is a list of traits that i would look at carefully if i was a newbie, looking for a school. i am aware that many of you will look at this list and realize that your school may not fit in...and your school may well be on the way up. but, my point in this is that, unless you want to be a guinea pig, i would watch out for these 12 things. and, to be a guinea pig is just not neccesary. of the schools that don't meet these goals, i would bet several will not last, or will have severely limited choices for there grads, as far as where they can practice or whether they can get a decent residency. and, there is simply no good reason to take that risk.

so, without further ado...12 things avoid in an offshore med school.

1. <10 years of existence
2. >10 years of existence without any growth, or with a significant increase in restrictions (ie. lost loans, less states to work in, less clinical affiliations)
3. operates outside the country of charter
4. grads are unable to recieve unrestricted license in the country they studied in
5. poor or no history of residency placements
6. no fully licensed, practicing grads.
7. grads are banned from practicing in ANY state
8. students act as professors or faculty in any capacity beyond TA or tutoring.
9. a school that does not have its own clinical facilities OR does not have written affiliations for clinical education with facilities that are ACGME approved for all the core specialties (ie not just ACGME approved for FP, but approved for surg, im, ob/gyn, peds, psych)
10. a history of lying, deception, untoward advertising practices by its students or administration.
11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY
12. any school that has any part of its curriculum as internet based.

All in all a well intentioned post but let me comment/elaborate

#1 at one point SGU, Ross, etc, etc, were just starting also and lacked many of your above items on the list.

Many of those big five schools send students to another country for clinicals. Is that not learning outside of the country of charter?

States trying to ban FMG's is nothing new. Multiple states have tried to deny licensure to grads of MANY countries including old european schools, asian schools, etc etc. Needing to get counsel in order to obtain licensure is nothing new.

As far as students teaching in order to make ends meet I do not know what the problem is as long as teaching is limited as to not interfere with studies. I knew a Phd that was teaching at Baylor Medical College. What would be wrong with that person teaching at a non us medical school?

11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY

This is a matter of semantics. In as much as Charles may not have official so called agents, your participation on this forum and link to Charles U accomplishes much of the same an agent would.

www.firstfaculty.com = apply on line

The difference is that Neil doesn't get the BMW like an agent.

Reference teaching, this isn't abnormal except where you have students teaching multiple classes and supposedly going to med school at the same time. State Boards are not impressed by this from what I've heard in evaluating faculty equivalency to US schools.
az skeptic

october · #6 (**permalink**) 09-04-2004, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azskeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by october

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilc

ok, with all the "10 things that..." posts out there, i thought i would jump in with mine.

he is a list of traits that i would look at carefully if i was a newbie, looking for a school. i am aware that many of you will look at this list and realize that your school may not fit in...and your school may well be on the way up. but, my point in this is that, unless you want to be a guinea pig, i would watch out for these 12 things. and, to be a guinea pig is just not neccesary. of the schools that don't meet these goals, i would bet several will not last, or will have severely limited choices for there grads, as far as where they can practice or whether they can get a decent residency. and, there is simply no good reason to take that risk.

so, without further ado...12 things avoid in an offshore med school.

1. <10 years of existence
2. >10 years of existence without any growth, or with a significant increase in restrictions (ie. lost loans, less states to work in, less clinical affiliations)
3. operates outside the country of charter
4. grads are unable to recieve unrestricted license in the country they studied in
5. poor or no history of residency placements
6. no fully licensed, practicing grads.
7. grads are banned from practicing in ANY state
8. students act as professors or faculty in any capacity beyond TA or tutoring.
9. a school that does not have its own clinical facilities OR does not have written affiliations for clinical education with facilities that are ACGME approved for all the core specialties (ie not just ACGME approved for FP, but approved for surg, im, ob/gyn, peds, psych)
10. a history of lying, deception, untoward advertising practices by its students or administration.
11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY
12. any school that has any part of its curriculum as internet based.

All in all a well intentioned post but let me comment/elaborate

#1 at one point SGU, Ross, etc, etc, were just starting also and lacked many of your above items on the list.

Many of those big five schools send students to another country for clinicals. Is that not learning outside of the country of charter?

States trying to ban FMG's is nothing new. Multiple states have tried to deny licensure to grads of MANY countries including old european schools, asian schools, etc etc. Needing to get counsel in order to obtain licensure is nothing new.

As far as students teaching in order to make ends meet I do not know what the problem is as long as teaching is limited as to not interfere with studies. I knew a Phd that was teaching at Baylor Medical College. What would be wrong with that person teaching at a non us medical school?

11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY

This is a matter of semantics. In as much as Charles may not have official so called agents, your participation on this forum and link to Charles U accomplishes much of the same an agent would.

www.firstfaculty.com = apply on line

The difference is that Neil doesn't get the BMW like an agent.

Reference teaching, this isn't abnormal except where you have students teaching multiple classes and supposedly going to med school at the same time. State Boards are not impressed by this from what I've heard in evaluating faculty equivalency to US schools.
az skeptic

And what would be wrong if he did get a BMW or some consideration for students that end up matriculating in no small part due to his forum participation and insight?

azskeptic · #7 (**permalink**) 09-04-2004, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by october

Quote:

Originally Posted by azskeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by october

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilc

ok, with all the "10 things that..." posts out there, i thought i would jump in with mine.

he is a list of traits that i would look at carefully if i was a newbie, looking for a school. i am aware that many of you will look at this list and realize that your school may not fit in...and your school may well be on the way up. but, my point in this is that, unless you want to be a guinea pig, i would watch out for these 12 things. and, to be a guinea pig is just not neccesary. of the schools that don't meet these goals, i would bet several will not last, or will have severely limited choices for there grads, as far as where they can practice or whether they can get a decent residency. and, there is simply no good reason to take that risk.

so, without further ado...12 things avoid in an offshore med school.

1. <10 years of existence
2. >10 years of existence without any growth, or with a significant increase in restrictions (ie. lost loans, less states to work in, less clinical affiliations)
3. operates outside the country of charter
4. grads are unable to recieve unrestricted license in the country they studied in
5. poor or no history of residency placements
6. no fully licensed, practicing grads.
7. grads are banned from practicing in ANY state
8. students act as professors or faculty in any capacity beyond TA or tutoring.
9. a school that does not have its own clinical facilities OR does not have written affiliations for clinical education with facilities that are ACGME approved for all the core specialties (ie not just ACGME approved for FP, but approved for surg, im, ob/gyn, peds, psych)
10. a history of lying, deception, untoward advertising practices by its students or administration.
11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY
12. any school that has any part of its curriculum as internet based.

All in all a well intentioned post but let me comment/elaborate

#1 at one point SGU, Ross, etc, etc, were just starting also and lacked many of your above items on the list.

Many of those big five schools send students to another country for clinicals. Is that not learning outside of the country of charter?

States trying to ban FMG's is nothing new. Multiple states have tried to deny licensure to grads of MANY countries including old european schools, asian schools, etc etc. Needing to get counsel in order to obtain licensure is nothing new.

As far as students teaching in order to make ends meet I do not know what the problem is as long as teaching is limited as to not interfere with studies. I knew a Phd that was teaching at Baylor Medical College. What would be wrong with that person teaching at a non us medical school?

11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY

This is a matter of semantics. In as much as Charles may not have official so called agents, your participation on this forum and link to Charles U accomplishes much of the same an agent would.

www.firstfaculty.com = apply on line

The difference is that Neil doesn't get the BMW like an agent.

Reference teaching, this isn't abnormal except where you have students teaching multiple classes and supposedly going to med school at the same time. State Boards are not impressed by this from what I've heard in evaluating faculty equivalency to US schools.
az skeptic

And what would be wrong if he did get a BMW or some consideration for students that end up matriculating in no small part due to his forum participation and insight?

Nothing wrong with it if everyone knew his role. Neil, you expecting a BMW anytime soon?

microphage · #8 (**permalink**) 09-04-2004, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azskeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by october

Quote:

Originally Posted by azskeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by october

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilc

ok, with all the "10 things that..." posts out there, i thought i would jump in with mine.

he is a list of traits that i would look at carefully if i was a newbie, looking for a school. i am aware that many of you will look at this list and realize that your school may not fit in...and your school may well be on the way up. but, my point in this is that, unless you want to be a guinea pig, i would watch out for these 12 things. and, to be a guinea pig is just not neccesary. of the schools that don't meet these goals, i would bet several will not last, or will have severely limited choices for there grads, as far as where they can practice or whether they can get a decent residency. and, there is simply no good reason to take that risk.

so, without further ado...12 things avoid in an offshore med school.

1. <10 years of existence
2. >10 years of existence without any growth, or with a significant increase in restrictions (ie. lost loans, less states to work in, less clinical affiliations)
3. operates outside the country of charter
4. grads are unable to recieve unrestricted license in the country they studied in
5. poor or no history of residency placements
6. no fully licensed, practicing grads.
7. grads are banned from practicing in ANY state
8. students act as professors or faculty in any capacity beyond TA or tutoring.
9. a school that does not have its own clinical facilities OR does not have written affiliations for clinical education with facilities that are ACGME approved for all the core specialties (ie not just ACGME approved for FP, but approved for surg, im, ob/gyn, peds, psych)
10. a history of lying, deception, untoward advertising practices by its students or administration.
11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY
12. any school that has any part of its curriculum as internet based.

All in all a well intentioned post but let me comment/elaborate

#1 at one point SGU, Ross, etc, etc, were just starting also and lacked many of your above items on the list.

Many of those big five schools send students to another country for clinicals. Is that not learning outside of the country of charter?

States trying to ban FMG's is nothing new. Multiple states have tried to deny licensure to grads of MANY countries including old european schools, asian schools, etc etc. Needing to get counsel in order to obtain licensure is nothing new.

As far as students teaching in order to make ends meet I do not know what the problem is as long as teaching is limited as to not interfere with studies. I knew a Phd that was teaching at Baylor Medical College. What would be wrong with that person teaching at a non us medical school?

11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY

This is a matter of semantics. In as much as Charles may not have official so called agents, your participation on this forum and link to Charles U accomplishes much of the same an agent would.

www.firstfaculty.com = apply on line

The difference is that Neil doesn't get the BMW like an agent.

Reference teaching, this isn't abnormal except where you have students teaching multiple classes and supposedly going to med school at the same time. State Boards are not impressed by this from what I've heard in evaluating faculty equivalency to US schools.
az skeptic

And what would be wrong if he did get a BMW or some consideration for students that end up matriculating in no small part due to his forum participation and insight?

Nothing wrong with it if everyone knew his role. Neil, you expecting a BMW anytime soon?

Where's my BMW? I'll even settle for an Atos!!! I'm sure my useless posts have convinced a student or two to apply to AUC at the very least...

october · #9 (**permalink**) 09-04-2004, 05:52 PM

Why are you so skeptical?

azskeptic · #10 (**permalink**) 09-04-2004, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by october

Why are you so skeptical?

read the stuff at www.quackwatch.com

Seen a lot of healthfraud and quackery over the years. Then you see people taking shortcuts, like trying to get MD over the internet. Makes one realize that there is lots of work to be done to keep our society safe from those who think they know more than they do in terms of medicine.

The stories of the hard worker son these lists inspire me to realize that legitimate students degrees need to be protected; we don't need people gaining fake credentials in comparison to those who go to med school and get the experience of doctors.

You seem fairly skeptical yourself reading your posts. What is your story?

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