12 things to avoid in a medical school

[neilc]

ok, with all the "10 things that..." posts out there, i thought i would jump in with mine.

he is a list of traits that i would look at carefully if i was a newbie, looking for a school. i am aware that many of you will look at this list and realize that your school may not fit in...and your school may well be on the way up. but, my point in this is that, unless you want to be a guinea pig, i would watch out for these 12 things. and, to be a guinea pig is just not neccesary. of the schools that don't meet these goals, i would bet several will not last, or will have severely limited choices for there grads, as far as where they can practice or whether they can get a decent residency. and, there is simply no good reason to take that risk.

so, without further ado...12 things avoid in an offshore med school.

1. <10 years of existence
2. >10 years of existence without any growth, or with a significant increase in restrictions (ie. lost loans, less states to work in, less clinical affiliations)
3. operates outside the country of charter
4. grads are unable to recieve unrestricted license in the country they studied in
5. poor or no history of residency placements
6. no fully licensed, practicing grads.
7. grads are banned from practicing in ANY state
8. students act as professors or faculty in any capacity beyond TA or tutoring.
9. a school that does not have its own clinical facilities OR does not have written affiliations for clinical education with facilities that are ACGME approved for all the core specialties (ie not just ACGME approved for FP, but approved for surg, im, ob/gyn, peds, psych)
10. a history of lying, deception, untoward advertising practices by its students or administration.
11. AVOID ANY SCHOOL THAT USES AGENTS IN ANY WAY
12. any school that has any part of its curriculum as internet based.


like i said before, some schools may not meet some of the minor criteria and still may be on the way up (saba and smu come to mind)...but, if you are a newbie, i would think that the safe bet is to go to the schools that have no negatives based on this list. if you cannot get into any of those schools (trust me, you can get into one of them, at least...) then maybe consider the younger schools that are actively working on approval and don't have any of the other negatives.

[stephew]

its a matter of honest representation. Ala Aaimg. If neil (or I) are getting paid or in any way influenced to be here or represent thigs in a way other than our conscious guides us, we should reveal that as a disclosure. Its called ethics. It doesnt mean we couldnt offer good views, but you should know where we are coming from. BTW sgu hasnt even INVITED ME DOWN TO GRENADA in a long loooooong time. Ahem.

[october]

Why are you so skeptical?

read the stuff at www.quackwatch.com

Seen a lot of healthfraud and quackery over the years. Then you see people taking shortcuts, like trying to get MD over the internet. Makes one realize that there is lots of work to be done to keep our society safe from those who think they know more than they do in terms of medicine.

The stories of the hard worker son these lists inspire me to realize that legitimate students degrees need to be protected; we don't need people gaining fake credentials in comparison to those who go to med school and get the experience of doctors.

You seem fairly skeptical yourself reading your posts. What is your story?

Dr Barrett of Quackwatch.com interestingly enough seems to have completed part of a law degree via correspondence

Correspondence course in American Law and Procedure, LaSalle University Extension Division, Chicago (1 1/2 years completed), 12/66-12/68 http://www.quackwatch.org/10Bio/biovitae.html

[azskeptic]

its a matter of honest representation. Ala Aaimg. If neil (or I) are getting paid or in any way influenced to be here or represent thigs in a way other than our conscious guides us, we should reveal that as a disclosure. Its called ethics. It doesnt mean we couldnt offer good views, but you should know where we are coming from. BTW sgu hasnt even INVITED ME DOWN TO GRENADA in a long loooooong time. Ahem.

Steph, that is the crux of it. It doesn't matter if one is paid if their activities are known. By the way, I accept no pay for my volunteer work though I will accept reimbursement for travel expenses from medical boards if I travel to speak in front of them. Most times I am able to fit my travel in with my regular work travel so it doesn't cost anything to anyone.

az skeptic,enjoying the holiday

[neilc]

the problem with agents is that they are unneccessary, and strictly a salesman for the school. a school that pays commision to agents is just asking for dodgy behavior.

on the other hand, a school that pays an admission office to answer questions, or grads to perform interviews is not an agent, by my definition. this is payment for service rendered, and as there is not an agreement to pay on the condition of a student enrollment, there is minimal incentive to mislead folks in order to make a buck.

your points about all schools being new at one time are fine and dandy. and about states always looking for ways to ban graduates. but, the fact is NOW there are schools that do not have these problems. there are old schools, with zero to few problems getting licensed in the states. so, why reinvent the wheel? when there are no options, you do the best you can, you forge a trail. fortunately, there are many others that forged this trail for us to follow. to get off this established path to licensure with the almost sure bets is simply taking a much larger risk than is neccesary.

and, as far as operating outside of charter for clinicals, technically, you are correct. but, again, this is a standard and accepted practice. and, these students that do this have typically spent at least 2 academic years attending school in the country of charter. it is my personal opinion that never setting foot inside the country of charter is a simple, effective way for the licensing boards to draw a line excluding you and still allowing other IMG's in. if they cannot eliminate all the IMG's, and they can't, they still will want to make it difficult us to work there. it seems very, very foolish to tempt fate. again, do not reinvent the wheel. take advantage of the groundwork that has been laid, and do the smart thing. it may be a great feeling to be an innovator, or a groundbreaker, but in the IMG game, it is simply an unneccessary risk.

[azskeptic]

the problem with agents is that they are unneccessary, and strictly a salesman for the school. a school that pays commision to agents is just asking for dodgy behavior.

on the other hand, a school that pays an admission office to answer questions, or grads to perform interviews is not an agent, by my definition. this is payment for service rendered, and as there is not an agreement to pay on the condition of a student enrollment, there is minimal incentive to mislead folks in order to make a buck.

your points about all schools being new at one time are fine and dandy. and about states always looking for ways to ban graduates. but, the fact is NOW there are schools that do not have these problems. there are old schools, with zero to few problems getting licensed in the states. so, why reinvent the wheel? when there are no options, you do the best you can, you forge a trail. fortunately, there are many others that forged this trail for us to follow. to get off this established path to licensure with the almost sure bets is simply taking a much larger risk than is neccesary.

and, as far as operating outside of charter for clinicals, technically, you are correct. but, again, this is a standard and accepted practice. and, these students that do this have typically spent at least 2 academic years attending school in the country of charter. it is my personal opinion that never setting foot inside the country of charter is a simple, effective way for the licensing boards to draw a line excluding you and still allowing other IMG's in. if they cannot eliminate all the IMG's, and they can't, they still will want to make it difficult us to work there. it seems very, very foolish to tempt fate. again, do not reinvent the wheel. take advantage of the groundwork that has been laid, and do the smart thing. it may be a great feeling to be an innovator, or a groundbreaker, but in the IMG game, it is simply an unneccessary risk.

Its kind of like doing cars. Most people don't use an 'agent' to find a car....they do their own research and negotiation preferring to do their own bargaining. Most people don't buy an unknown car i.e. one that has no history...why drive a Lada when you can drive a Ford which has 90 years history?

With that said and done if you have major credit problems sometimes you have no choice..you must deal with the sleazy used car lots of the world....you are dealing with risky stuff but it is your only choice...

personally I would rather take the bus until I could get into a decent car but call me conservative.

az skeptic

[october]

At the time the offshore schools began (eary 1980's) students that enrolled in them did choose to take some risk as compared with Bologna/ Guadalahara (established schools)

I think the nature of us humans is the ability to make an informed decision and the propensity towards newer endeavors.

I am not telling anyone what to do. They need to make their own decisions.

Regarding sales agents; I have seen MANY an agent representing universities in the USA trying to recruit new students. HS job/education fairs is a common place to see them. They ACTIVELY pitch and SELL the schools, established, accredited, bonafide ones at that.

Lets say for arguments sake, 80% of all med students were to realign themselves at Charles U. You can BET licensure boards would turn some screws. After all, a program in English, higher tuition for internationals, starting to sound like the recipe for offshore schools.

Out of curiousity, does Charles have a second medical library equal to size and content in english language books/journals?

[TriageModerator]

Everyone should keep these tips in mind. And about med schools using agents, I think that just proves how much education has turned into a business.

[neilc]

Lets say for arguments sake, 80% of all med students were to realign themselves at Charles U. You can BET licensure boards would turn some screws. After all, a program in English, higher tuition for internationals, starting to sound like the recipe for offshore schools.

Out of curiousity, does Charles have a second medical library equal to size and content in english language books/journals?

the program i am in at charles is considered a seperate international program by some states. it had to apply seperately for recognition in california, for example.

as for the library, yes, it has a very large library, with all medical specialties and basic sciences well represented by english textbooks. remember, this is a large university med school. lots of research, and to be widely published research needs to be done in english. even withouot the english program, this library would be well stocked with english literature.

i can see your points, about agents, about wanting to be a leader on a new, exciting endeavor, etc...but, i disagree that most want that. i would bet that most americans that go abroad for med school want the most simple, direct path to a job in america, and they want minimal restrictions. if this is being read by people that do not care about where they can practice, or are willing to negotiate with agents, or want to try to blaze some new trail by learning medicine on the internet, than great, go for it. but, you should be aware of the problems inherent in that. for the rest of us that just want to get back home, work and minimize problems, i think that the above points are important to keep in mind.

[azskeptic]

At the time the offshore schools began (eary 1980's) students that enrolled in them did choose to take some risk as compared with Bologna/ Guadalahara (established schools)

I think the nature of us humans is the ability to make an informed decision and the propensity towards newer endeavors.

I am not telling anyone what to do. They need to make their own decisions.

Regarding sales agents; I have seen MANY an agent representing universities in the USA trying to recruit new students. HS job/education fairs is a common place to see them. They ACTIVELY pitch and SELL the schools, established, accredited, bonafide ones at that.

Lets say for arguments sake, 80% of all med students were to realign themselves at Charles U. You can BET licensure boards would turn some screws. After all, a program in English, higher tuition for internationals, starting to sound like the recipe for offshore schools.

Out of curiousity, does Charles have a second medical library equal to size and content in english language books/journals?

Would the sales agents be employees of the schools or brokers?

[october]

At the time the offshore schools began (eary 1980's) students that enrolled in them did choose to take some risk as compared with Bologna/ Guadalahara (established schools)

I think the nature of us humans is the ability to make an informed decision and the propensity towards newer endeavors.

I am not telling anyone what to do. They need to make their own decisions.

Regarding sales agents; I have seen MANY an agent representing universities in the USA trying to recruit new students. HS job/education fairs is a common place to see them. They ACTIVELY pitch and SELL the schools, established, accredited, bonafide ones at that.

Lets say for arguments sake, 80% of all med students were to realign themselves at Charles U. You can BET licensure boards would turn some screws. After all, a program in English, higher tuition for internationals, starting to sound like the recipe for offshore schools.

Out of curiousity, does Charles have a second medical library equal to size and content in english language books/journals?

Would the sales agents be employees of the schools or brokers?

That I do not know. How would one differentiate commissioned school employees from commissioned non employees. The employees job security is related to selling the school as is the broker.