Any good Medical Schools That do not require MCAT

[BrendaB_MD]

I broadcast that I am an MD because of deep insecurities. I also happen to be an epidemiologist. Nonetheless, I appreciate your instruction in these matters.

The MCAT is designed to predict academic performance in medical school. In an ideal world, you would take a randomly selected group of students, administer the MCAT, seal the results in a vault and then send the cohort to medical school. After graduation, you would compare the predicted performance and actual performance. As it stands, we have a form of 'work up bias' because only a subset of the population is exposed to the intervention --subject to the outcome of the test. Thus, we never obtain data showing how those who performed poorly on the MCAT would do in medical school because they never get to matriculate. Tests show that the MCAT is predictive; however, the result only applies to the subpopulation of those who take the test and matriculate in medical school. If you do search on medline you can find a number of studies that show that, with the caveats above, the MCAT is predictive across racial groups.

Originally Posted by Experto

Brenda:
I am an MD, took the MCAT went to med school and all that. And you consistently miss the point of what I say. You do not even understand the difference between validity and reliability, the evidence is your post above. And I have never said you should not take the test. If you read closely what I said, it implies it is the only way to get into med school. And, if the MCAT is not biased, why do you get the negative correlation that I mentioned. Did you know that one of the things that correlation measures is bias?

By the why, why do you need to broadcast to everybody that you have an MD?

[Experto]

Yes, I agree. The MCAT is predictive, and I agree that this holds accross all ethnic groups. Any member of an underrepresented minority that gets a good score and into med school, does as well as anyone who is non-minority who got the same score. But this is because they got the same score that measures the same thing: the verbal ability that determines performance during the basic sciences part of the medical curriculum. Same score predicts same performance, and this is independent of ethnicity.

But the average score of different ethnic groups is different and this is because there is a difference in the income and educational achievement of the families the underrepresented minority takers of the MCAT. Underrepresented takers of the MCAT come from families with significantly less income and educational achievement than non-minority applicants.

And the, I will insist: there are those peculiar negative correlations that you get, as the one I mentioned between the average score of the MCAT takers of a state and the proportion of the population of that state which are minority applicants.

I was a friend of one of the vicepresidents of the AAMC of a few years ago, and in a moment of candor, while we were having a discussion similar to ours and I proposed that the AAMC just stop administering the test, he told me that "we (aamc) make so much money off of it that we would not survive if we stop giving it."

[Genossa maximillian]

""we (aamc) make so much money off of it that we would not survive if we stop giving it.""

Well that was an honest answer.

Originally Posted by Experto

Yes, I agree. The MCAT is predictive, and I agree that this holds accross all ethnic groups. Any member of an underrepresented minority that gets a good score and into med school, does as well as anyone who is non-minority who got the same score. But this is because they got the same score that measures the same thing: the verbal ability that determines performance during the basic sciences part of the medical curriculum. Same score predicts same performance, and this is independent of ethnicity.

But the average score of different ethnic groups is different and this is because there is a difference in the income and educational achievement of the families the underrepresented minority takers of the MCAT. Underrepresented takers of the MCAT come from families with significantly less income and educational achievement than non-minority applicants.

And the, I will insist: there are those peculiar negative correlations that you get, as the one I mentioned between the average score of the MCAT takers of a state and the proportion of the population of that state which are minority applicants.

I was a friend of one of the vicepresidents of the AAMC of a few years ago, and in a moment of candor, while we were having a discussion similar to ours and I proposed that the AAMC just stop administering the test, he told me that "we (aamc) make so much money off of it that we would not survive if we stop giving it."

[chartero]

How does MCAT compare as a predictor to other available measures? I guess those would be undergraduate GPA and premedical science GPA. The former, especially, is so obviously subject to being just-about-gamed with "bird courses..." What alternative assessment is proposed?

[BrendaB_MD]

There are a lot of studies that look at predictors of med school performance (do a search on medline). The MCAT is a stronger predictor of med school performance than GPA. As one would expect, the MCAT is better at predicting preclinical performance than clinical performance.

The MCAT measures an important but relatively narrow dimension of ability whereas clinical competence requires a broad range of abilities that are not measured by the MCAT. Thus, one could argue that undue weight is placed on the MCAT. As often happens, the hard (quantitative) pushes out the soft considerations.

People often argue that we miss potentially good applicants with other skills by focusing on the MCAT. That would be true if the other desireable skills were differentially distributed between strata of MCAT scores. For example, it might be that people with high scores tend to have low people skills. While this theory is popular (particularly among those who were denied admission at US schools), I am not aware of any evidence to support the claim that other skills are differentially distributed.

Originally Posted by chartero

How does MCAT compare as a predictor to other available measures? I guess those would be undergraduate GPA and premedical science GPA. The former, especially, is so obviously subject to being just-about-gamed with "bird courses..." What alternative assessment is proposed?

[DRDR2U]

Originally Posted by BrendaB_MD

Sorry, but the MCAT is a good predictor of success in medical school. You can do a search on medline and find many studies that show this. It is true that the verbal section on the MCAT is most highly correlated with med school performance -- which makes sense because medicine is mainly about learning a vocabularly.

I would not discount the fact that the MCAT partly measures achievement. Learning medicine depends, in part, on having a solid foundation. I am not sure whether to call this aptitude or acheivement but those who score well on the MCAT are better prepared and more likely to perform well in medical school.

Many people complain that the MCAT measures irrelvant material that you won't need in medical school (organic chemistry, physics, etc). I hate to break it to you but you will be faced with lots of mindless memorization in medical school -- except the volume will be 5 times anything you experienced before. If you take a broader perspective, the MCAT measures someones ability to study and successfully master a body of tedious information. Past success is the best predictor future success.

Finally, you will be faced with lots of standardized tests in your medical career. Believe me, the MCAT is child's play compared to USMLE I.

You shortchange yourself by limiting yourself to schools that don't require the MCAT. Your best bet is to go to a CA approved school that has Fed approved US loans. You want to go to a school with green book rotations. Taking the MCAT will give you access to better programs and has the potential to pay dividends throughout your career.

I AM CONVINCED IT PROVES NOTHING BUT HOW FAR YOUR CHECKBOOK IS FROM YOURSELF

[UHSADOC]

MCATs are just another Flag or hoop to go through.......don't think it measure anything, other than additional $$$ and months of prep for the ones who really want to become MDs......
Yes, $$$ involved, but it does work as a screener, if you did your BA/BSc, got As in all pre-reqs...paid and studied and did well on the MCAT, I guess you "really" want to become an MD....unlike many of the silly MD programs offered at the Caribbeans........
"No MCAT, No BA, that's ok if your willing to PAY ! "
They even offer a pre-med program, to guarantee MD admission.......what a conflict of interest that is.....

[eastern2western]

Originally Posted by UHSADOC

MCATs are just another Flag or hoop to go through.......don't think it measure anything, other than additional $$$ and months of prep for the ones who really want to become MDs......
Yes, $$$ involved, but it does work as a screener, if you did your BA/BSc, got As in all pre-reqs...paid and studied and did well on the MCAT, I guess you "really" want to become an MD....unlike many of the silly MD programs offered at the Caribbeans........
"No MCAT, No BA, that's ok if your willing to PAY ! "
They even offer a pre-med program, to guarantee MD admission.......what a conflict of interest that is.....

in any country where the doctors make an above average salary, the requirment for getting into their medical schools is usually rigorous. US is one good example and its medical schools have a rediculous amt of high standards to pick the cream of the crop (high gpa, high mcat, high hrs of volunteering experience and blah, blah, blah). However, countries where the doctors do not make jack (many eastern asian countries and latin america countries), they have a horrible trouble of filling their seats in their school and they have a very relax standards for med school entrance (right out of high school, take u as long as u got money). That is the reason for the growth of so many foreign medical schools that cater towards american students. In most cases, those schools are situated in countries where doctors do not get pay a lot (china or mexico) or in poor countries where they need your money (cariibbeans). Thus, my answer for the original post is that the best places to look are countries where doctors do not get pay a lot and u should find schools that do not require mcat because those schools are desparately trying to fill their seats. However, getting in is easy, but getting out is another question. The thing u must remember is that a diploma does not get u jobs because only a license allows u to practice medicine.

[lswiltshire]

You lost me me with the silly half sentence …………. unlike many of the silly MD programs offered at the Caribbeans........


After all the silly MD programs offered at the Caribbeans........ are meant mainly also for American students. After all the silly MD programs offered at the Caribbeans includes the very strange program offered at UHSA. You are spitting ion the air, and the spittle is falling down in your face.


As far as I am concerned MCAT is just another one of those American things.
All over the world, NO ONE takes any MCAT to get into med school. It simply aint necessary.

Certainly in the British System, good grades in the required “A” level exams will do.
Note that it takes two years to do “A” level exams. For example, if you are doing Chemistry that is equivalent to doing like nine courses in the US system. Organic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry Lab, Inorganic Chemistry, Inorganic Chemistry Lab, Physical Chemistry, Physical Chemistry Lab. But it is all in one exam! If you are not proficient across the board, you fail the whole kit cat and caboodle. The British System aint easy!

Prospective medical students set out on their quest for medical school at age 15-16 by taking their “A” level exams……….and are doctors by age 22. And to say that is too young is nonsense. Because the even the North American external examiners think that our students are amazing in being able to stick their necks out and make the diagnosis, before they order an elaborate number of unnecessary blood tests.

By the way, these students are not Geeks either. They play cricket and football, do athletics and many other things.

The notion that one has to do a BA or BSc or MCAT or MFARTS is just another one of those American things. In most of the world where the MBBS or MB ChB is done no one needs a BA or BSc or MCAT or MFARTS.

To say that "No MCAT, No BA, that's ok if your willing to PAY ! " is a good rhyme but its the norm at Carribean schools. To say this is so funny, especially when it is well known that to get into Dow Hill Dump in remote Antigua, all you need to do is pay up.

To offera pre-med program, to guarantee MD admission is not a conflict of interest at all. It makes great sense. For then the school knows exactly how they have prepared you for med school. Its what used to be called first MB in older British schools.

[lswiltshire]

Eastern western

Aint see you for a while.


Re in any country where the doctors make an above average salary, the requirment for getting into their medical schools is usually rigorous. US is one good example and its medical schools have a rediculous amt of high standards to pick the cream of the crop (high gpa, high mcat, high hrs of volunteering experience and blah, blah, blah). However, countries where the doctors do not make jack (many eastern asian countries and latin america countries), they have a horrible trouble of filling their seats in their school and they have a very relax standards for med school entrance (right out of high school, take u as long as u got money).

In all countries it is very competitive to get into medical school, and that includes Asia. Don’t let anyone fool you.

Making lots of money is not the major motivation for entering medical school Sir. May be it is in the USA- but that is not so everywhere else.

It is spurious to think that in other countries that “they have a horrible trouble of filling their seats in their school” or that “they have a very relax standards for med school entrance.” In many countries medical education is state funded or subsidized and so competition is great- very great! The standards to get in are not at all relaxed at all.

When I went to UWI MOna the class size was 110. Since then a new school with a similar size class was established at St Augustine. Now a third UWI med campus is being set up at Cave Hill. Horrible trouble in filling seats in the school? I think not. So it is all over the world.

Its the strange schools in the Caribbean that find it difficult to "fill thier seats" NO?

The idea that students “right out of high school “ are unsuitable for medical school is an American opinion that does not hold water, since all over the real world medical students come straight out of high school or grammar school or whatever. I taught two students right out of the Dutch high school system that were doing straight A’s and making the rest of the class look like morons.

Thus your answer for the original post “that the best places to look are countries where doctors do not get pay a lot and u should find schools that do not require mcat because those schools are desparately trying to fill their seats” is FALSE Sir! It just isn’t so!

MCAT is an American thing. Most of the students I have met in offshore schools can not get into the yard at St Augustine or Mona, MCAT or no MCAT. They don’t want your money…… and the competition is very great. 5 seats for Bajans. 3 seats for St Lucians, Grenadians etc You go to school with the crème de la cream from 14 countries.

The reason for the growth of so many foreign medical schools that cater towards american students is GREED! Pure and simple. Most of these schools are not interested in education. Many were started by ex Ross teachers who saw it as a way of making money. Most are failing at it! Ross and AUC and SGU have succeeded to a large extent because they were about EDUCATION and they established fairly high academic standards and put back the money made into their institutions. Compare this with Spartan and UHSA which also begun in the same era.

Foreign medical schools that cater towards american students may be situated in countries where doctors do not get paid a lot (china or mexico) or in poor countries where they need your money (cariibbeans), as you say, but foreign medical schools that cater to their own needs, dont.

Note that in the same Caribbean that they are no foreign medical schools that cater towards american students in Bahamas, Barbados, Trinidad or Jamaica. Do you think these countries are rich? No it is because these countries have education standards, and understand what the presence of a real medical school should do for a nation.

All of the Caribbean offshore medical schools except SGU, and probably Ross to my knowledge are mainly parasitic. They offer nothing to the islands except a few long stay tourists of the poorer sort, that or tourism can do without (as is the case with Bahamas, Barbados, Trinidad or Jamaica).

None of the Caribbean offshore medical schools offers any medical benefits to their hosts countries, as is the case in the UWI campus territories.