Stop the Nonsense

[teratos]

Why do you need labs? Other than anatomy, and many US schools are considering (or have gone to) computer instruction in anatomy. Micro lab did nothing for me. i couldn't do a Gram's stain if my life depended on it. I do look at peripheral blood smears, and sometimes I look at Urines, but you can get most of that learning from a book. I don't remember anything but what I need to about anatomy, and I can practice in CA. G

[neilc]

well, i think that you should certainly have at least done a gram stain if you are going to call yourself doctor! 8)

personally, i think that they are important. pathology lab was an incredible experience. i was able to see first hand the effects of the diseases on the body. they were lessons i will not soon forget. anatomy was great for me, but if you don't want to operate, i agree that it is a bit much. however, i still think that micro, path and anatomy labs have some importance, and at least should be available to the future surgeons, ID specialists and pathologists.

here is another way to look at the issue. what do you think is an acceptable minimum standard? do you think all the get an ecfmg cert should be fine? there are many states that work this way. i think that is not enough, as the IMED/WHO listing truly means nothing. this minimal level allows internet schools to work. how about the rule being if you are licensed in one state, you can be licensed in all? well, again, the states that are desperate for docs will take these internet grads, so i think that is a pretty big loophole. what are the other options? truly, the states that want to make sure there are some standards must regulate it themselves.

i am not saying that all schools should be these incredible university centers of higher learning. i simply think that it is appropriate to verify that a certain level of competence and ability to instruct is there. so, the state can and should verify that there is a campus, and it has the facilities required to educate a future doctor in basic science. yes, you should grow out a culture, do a gram stain, look at urine and blood under the microscope, examine anatomical specimens and see the end-results of disease on organ specimens. the faculty there should be qualified to teach, and the state can and should verify that there are not some carib school flunkies teaching the courses.

whether you use everything AUC provided you in your daily practice is not the point. the point is, they had the facilities and the faculty to provide you with a solid education. more education than you needed, seems to be your point. but, the pathologist in your class is glad there was a lab. the infectious disease specialist was glad he learned how to do a culture. and the surgeon is glad there was a cadaver to dissect.

[Miklos]

Originally Posted by teratos

Any USMG will qualify for licensure in any state. While on the other hand, you can have someone from a non-CA approved school say, Saba, St. Chris, who gets perfect scores on step 1 and 2, cures HIV and invents a pill to make customer service representatives you deal with on the phone understand exactly what you are talking about, and you still can't practice in CA. G

George,

I may regret this, but I'm going to open up a can of worms...

See http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/10257.html

Licensure Exemptions for Eminent Physicians & Medical School Faculty

The following ten state boards license physicians through recognition of eminence in medical education or medical practice:

California (MD and DO)
Delaware
Washington, D.C.
Indiana
Louisiana
Maryland
Montana
New Hampshire (courtesy license for educational purposes is provided to eminent physicians under limited circumstances)
North Carolina
Pennsylvania

Physicians appointed to a medical school faculty are excused from the graduate medical education (GME) requirement for limited licensure in 15 states:

Arizona
California (MD and DO)
Connecticut
Florida
Georgia (physicians appointed to a medical faculty are excused from the GME requirement for limited licensure for teaching only)
Iowa
Louisiana
Maryland
North Carolina
Ohio
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
Tennessee
Vermont
West Virginia

Physicians appointed to a medical school faculty are excused from the examination requirement for limited licensure or teaching certification in these 12 states. The faculty appointees would, however, receive a limited license or similar credential.

California MD and DO
Connecticut
Florida
Georgia
Iowa
Louisiana
Maryland
North Carolina
Rhode Island
Tennessee
Vermont
West Virginia

Note: All information should be verified with the licensing board; medical licenses are granted to those physicians meeting all state requirements, at the discretion of the board.

So, this may mean that the rules can be applied at the Med Board's discretion (whatever that means).

(The only reference I have found on the Med Board's website is the one relating to Special Faculty Permits. If anyone else can find out more, I would like to know.)

NB. This is NOT a reason to go to a school which isn't California approved, unless you believe that you will cure HIV, etc...

Miklos

[neilc]

i can get 100% behind the support of an easier road to practice/teaching for those that demonstrate emminence in the field they practice/teach. if one of these superstars comes from a non-approved carib school, more power to them.

i simply agree with the idea california has, i agree that a mimimum standard should be met and verified. what the standards should be can be discussed forever. but, unless someone can show me what exactly california requires that is so prohibitive and insurmountable, i will continue to support it.

[teratos]

Miklos, thanks for the information. That is very interesting. No can of worms on that one.

Neilc, I still disagree. Let's say that you don't have the luxury of this forum in amking your decision on which school to attend. So you go to a non-CA aproved school. You do your residency, and do very well. Practice for a few years, things are grand. You meet the girl of your dreams. She is planning on retiring from the Hawaiian Tropic Bikini Team this year, and plans to settle down and run the family vineyard in the Napa Valley. You can't practice in CA cause you went to Saba. Even though you are on the teaching faculty of the local residency program, have practiced for years without mishap, you can't practice in CA because of your school. That's stupid. G

[azskeptic]

Originally Posted by teratos

Miklos, thanks for the information. That is very interesting. No can of worms on that one.

Neilc, I still disagree. Let's say that you don't have the luxury of this forum in amking your decision on which school to attend. So you go to a non-CA aproved school. You do your residency, and do very well. Practice for a few years, things are grand. You meet the girl of your dreams. She is planning on retiring from the Hawaiian Tropic Bikini Team this year, and plans to settle down and run the family vineyard in the Napa Valley. You can't practice in CA cause you went to Saba. Even though you are on the teaching faculty of the local residency program, have practiced for years without mishap, you can't practice in CA because of your school. That's stupid. G

well, there are applicable things in life that are similiar......you might want to be a doctor in Switzerland but you can't unless you have citizenship and meet their standards....every area has 'standards'....do they always make sense? Nope..but they are the local standard.

[teratos]

In this case you DO have citizenship. You pay taxes, and would add considerably to the tax base of the state you live in. I still say it's dumb. Rules are rules, though........... G

[neilc]

Originally Posted by teratos

Miklos, thanks for the information. That is very interesting. No can of worms on that one.

Neilc, I still disagree. Let's say that you don't have the luxury of this forum in amking your decision on which school to attend. So you go to a non-CA aproved school. You do your residency, and do very well. Practice for a few years, things are grand. You meet the girl of your dreams. She is planning on retiring from the Hawaiian Tropic Bikini Team this year, and plans to settle down and run the family vineyard in the Napa Valley. You can't practice in CA cause you went to Saba. Even though you are on the teaching faculty of the local residency program, have practiced for years without mishap, you can't practice in CA because of your school. That's stupid. G

well, i think we will have to agree to disagree. while the guy may be qualified, i still think that it is better to have the occasional unfortunate incident such as you described above, rather than have grads of any school with a who listing (such as the internet schools). if you go abroad, it is your responsibility to do your research.

if the choice is to not allow the shady internet schools, and the occasional guy like above gets screwed or to allow anyone who can get through the usmle to practice, i would always choose the former. the real question in the above scenario is why SABA is not approved. that is what is stupid.

[october]

Originally Posted by neilc

i can get 100% behind the support of an easier road to practice/teaching for those that demonstrate emminence in the field they practice/teach. if one of these superstars comes from a non-approved carib school, more power to them.

i simply agree with the idea california has, i agree that a mimimum standard should be met and verified. what the standards should be can be discussed forever. but, unless someone can show me what exactly california requires that is so prohibitive and insurmountable, i will continue to support it.

Hi Neil,

Out of curiousity why would such an old university in a country whose language is Chech run a medical program in English?

What is the medical school tuition for Chech nationals vs US citizens?

[neilc]

they need the money, so they have an english program. the government funds for the university are nowhere near what is required to run the school. the funds the english program generates are essential to the school.

i think this is pretty standard for most schools. offshore schools are around to make a buck. the only difference between these programs and the carib is that the motive is not profit for investors, but funds to keep the schools operating, for both nationals and foreigners.

if you are enrolled in the czech language program, there are no fees. this is for anyone who is admitted, regardless of country of citizenship. the english language program fees are $10,500 a year. we do have czech and slovak nationals in the english program that are paying the $10,500 and there are students from all over (but i don't know any americans) in the czech program for free. it is a matter of passing the entrance exam with competitive scores. in the czech program, the test is in czech (which makes it pretty tough unless you are totally fluent) and there are thousands of students taking it, which makes the admission a bit more competitive. the test for the english program is the same, only the language is different. however, the number of students that can afford the tuition is a bit less, so the likelihood of getting in is a bit higher.

hope this helps!

hope this helps!