IS CALI APPROVAL REALLY THAT IMPORTANT? I DON'T THINK SO.

[asianTSwantsMD]

first and foremost the state of cali is broke. they are not after of the caribbean-trained docs' coins for application fees. They go for the schools' checks. but the victims are the same-- the students/img's.

cali economy must be on a dive. state gov't is pimpin'. cali has so many regulatory boards. one each for manicure/pedicure, haircut, facial, tanning, massage, etc. I wonder how they regulate 'happy endings.' hehehehe

to get a cali med license? sue the cali board.

Ms. Park, how many Spartan docs working in cali? can they speak up now or are they still gagged by the out of court settlement order?

[shockandawe]

Originally Posted by asianTSwantsMD

first and foremost the state of cali is broke. they are not after of the caribbean-trained docs' coins for application fees. They go for the schools' checks. but the victims are the same-- the students/img's.

cali economy must be on a dive. state gov't is pimpin'. cali has so many regulatory boards. one each for manicure/pedicure, haircut, facial, tanning, massage, etc. I wonder how they regulate 'happy endings.' hehehehe

to get a cali med license? sue the cali board.

Ms. Park, how many Spartan docs working in cali? can they speak up now or are they still gagged by the out of court settlement order?

asianTSwantsMD wrote: "If a blind man is able to see after an eye operation, is he still blind?"

The answer is: Yes, but only if he is a California state medical board member. -s&a

[Miklos]

There are a couple of misconceptions on this thread that I'd like to address.

1) Schools do not pay huge application fees in order to get approved. They must complete the application, which is a significant burden in terms of man-hours, but the only fee attached is if a site visit is required. If a site visit is required, the med board bills the school for their site visit expenses.

2) The reason closed schools in Afghanistan (for instance) are listed on the med board's site is so that past graduates of those local programs can apply for licensure.

3) The reason that operating Carib. schools are not listed is that they have either a) not applied for approval or b) were turned down.

4) Regarding the California statue on English language programs. It (sadly, no loop hole there) pretty clearly differentiates between native language and non-native language programs. To pretend otherwise, is to ignore reality.

5) Planning legal remedy after attending a non-approved school/program is at best a pipe dream. The medical board (whether fair or not) has statuatory authority to determine whether an applicant meets criteria. In addition, if a person attended a non-approved school, after finishing residency, being in debt a couple hundred k, will they realistically have the financial werewithal to mount a legal challenge?

Answer: highly unlikely.

So, if someone wants to have the option of practicing in California someday, do yourself a favor. Go to an approved school or program and avoid headaches later.

Miklos

[cristagali]

AsiantSwants raises some interesting issue. Of course Miklos makes a very sound arguement also (and is the position of the Cali board to date). To anyone, not on the approved list, have you TRIED to APPLY to the CA Board? What was their response? As I stated earlier, NO HUNGARIAN school is on TEXAS' "approved" list. But there are many Hungarian doctors working in Texas, who had to go through a secondary process. A little longer and cumbersome, but licenses were granted. My question is, has anyone on an individual basis applied for CA letter? What was the outcome? if not successful, what was their position? In the big picture, Cali board says they are protecting the public. But when you review the "approved" school list, you absolutely know thats a joke. I really don't see how it could hold up in a court challenge. But then Miklos is right, who has the time and money to wage war with Cali. But more worrisome is that some states are considering adopting the Cali board list. Maybe the Cali board position will be challenged, but through another states court..I don't know...I'm not a lawyer...Anyway, I'll be long gone before this issue is settled. Hopefully it won't come back to haunt me!!HA!

[asianTSwantsMD]

There are a couple of misconceptions on this thread that I'd like to address.

1) Schools do not pay huge application fees in order to get approved. They must complete the application, which is a significant burden in terms of man-hours, but the only fee attached is if a site visit is required. If a site visit is required, the med board bills the school for their site visit expenses.

application fees cali board is asking from carib schools are for site visit also known as island vacation. do you really think cali board asked the same amount from schools in iraq, ethiopia, bangladesh and other not so developing countries for site visits?


2) The reason closed schools in Afghanistan (for instance) are listed on the med board's site is so that past graduates of those local programs can apply for licensure.

that means school background is not important for licensing; complying ecfmg and passing usmle 1 and 2 and doing residency are. med school in kabul has been closed or semi-closed for decades.

3) The reason that operating Carib. schools are not listed is that they have either a) not applied for approval or b) were turned down.

you forgot c) they have refused to engage in corruption and bribery

4) Regarding the California statue on English language programs. It (sadly, no loop hole there) pretty clearly differentiates between native language and non-native language programs. To pretend otherwise, is to ignore reality.

the loop hole is so glaring. cali licensing laws do not specifically nitpick english or non english MD programs. they approve schools not the language skills of the schools' faculty. what's their method to assess let's say Poland's english MD program? Force all polish professors to take ESL test or TOEFL? what is the policy of the cali board on med schools in India where both hindi and english are used as medium?

5) Planning legal remedy after attending a non-approved school/program is at best a pipe dream. The medical board (whether fair or not) has statuatory authority to determine whether an applicant meets criteria. In addition, if a person attended a non-approved school, after finishing residency, being in debt a couple hundred k, will they realistically have the financial werewithal to mount a legal challenge?

Answer: highly unlikely.

go pro bono. the best way to pay off student loans and get a cali license at the same time is to file a class action lawsuit against the cali board.

So, if someone wants to have the option of practicing in California someday, do yourself a favor. Go to an approved school or program and avoid headaches later.

that is the most unfortunate thing in this issue. the cali board's moronic interpretation and implementation of licensing laws end some student's dreams. i can only afford 6000 dollars a year for all med school and living expenses. I want a med school that is strong in research, with world class professors, and has good clinical facilities.

with my budget and goals, it seems i will end up taking the english md program of a russian pediatric academy. the cali board says english MD programs in eastern europe and russia are not approved. should i listen? no. if i do, then that will be the end of my dream.

My idea of going to med school is not just to finish my degree, pass usmle, do residency and get licensed. i want to maximize my time in med school, learn a lot of things and stay focus on my goal of becoming a pediatric plastic surgeon. medical knowledge and clinical skills, for me, are more important than USMLE or state license.

i don't want to choose a med school using the cali board's idiocy. my mind is set on a russian med school after reading numerous clinical/medical abstracts, journals, and reseach on russian pediatrics/plastic surgery. with or without the cali board's appoval, I want to learn pediatric plastic surgery, microsurgery, tissue culture, osteogenesis (bone replication), non-invasive surgery, use of miniaturized surgical tools, etc.

I think with my 6000 dollars a year for six years, i can learn all these things in a pediatric medical academy in st. petersburg. if in the future cali does not want me, maybe somewhere in africa or asia, i will be needed.

PURSUE YOUR DREAM AGAINST ALL ODDS!



[/b]

[azskeptic]

I support the FSMB's discussions on offshore school inspection which is occuring. Eventually we will need a way to inspect all schools but currently some states,like California, rely on traditional schools that are inspected by the govts for their own students and require inspection of new schools that are designed for Americans. This includes programs designed for Americans by state supported schools like the english ones.

Suing a govt. is a big move. You have to be standing completely on solid ground. I don't believe your argument is there yet. California is very thorough and ethical in the way they do things.

[Miklos]

Your post, to be honest, is a little bit tiresome, especially considering that you've been on this forum only for a handful of days. However, everyone is entitled to be wrong.

Originally Posted by asianTSwantsMD

There are a couple of misconceptions on this thread that I'd like to address.

1) Schools do not pay huge application fees in order to get approved. They must complete the application, which is a significant burden in terms of man-hours, but the only fee attached is if a site visit is required. If a site visit is required, the med board bills the school for their site visit expenses.

application fees cali board is asking from carib schools are for site visit also known as island vacation. do you really think cali board asked the same amount from schools in iraq, ethiopia, bangladesh and other not so developing countries for site visits?

2) The reason closed schools in Afghanistan (for instance) are listed on the med board's site is so that past graduates of those local programs can apply for licensure.

that means school background is not important for licensing; complying ecfmg and passing usmle 1 and 2 and doing residency are. med school in kabul has been closed or semi-closed for decades.

3) The reason that operating Carib. schools are not listed is that they have either a) not applied for approval or b) were turned down.

you forgot c) they have refused to engage in corruption and bribery

4) Regarding the California statue on English language programs. It (sadly, no loop hole there) pretty clearly differentiates between native language and non-native language programs. To pretend otherwise, is to ignore reality.

the loop hole is so glaring. cali licensing laws do not specifically nitpick english or non english MD programs. they approve schools not the language skills of the schools' faculty. what's their method to assess let's say Poland's english MD program? Force all polish professors to take ESL test or TOEFL? what is the policy of the cali board on med schools in India where both hindi and english are used as medium?

Let's go straight to the California law for clarification. They are posted publicly for everyone's edification. See http://www.medbd.ca.gov/MBC_Regulations.pdf (If they are not there, one can easily look them up under the California law website, if one finds the proper Business and Professions Code.)

The relevant code to this discussion is as follows:

Originally Posted by MBC Regulations

1314.1 International Medical Schools.
(a) For purposes of Article 5 of Chapter 5 of Division 2 of the code (commencing with Section 2100), a medical school's resident course of instruction that leads to an M.D. degree shall be deemed equivalent to that required by Sections 2089 and 2089.5 of the code if the medical school offers the curriculum and clinical instruction described in those sections and meets one of the following:

(1) The medical school is owned and operated by the government of the country in wich it is located, the country is a member of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, and the medical school's primary purpose is educating its own citizens to practice medicine in that country; or

(2)the medical school is chartered by the jurisdiction in which it is domiciled and meets the standards set forth in subsection (b) below.

The regulation then outlines the requirements and then continues...

1314.1 (2) Every seven years, it shall submit documentation sufficient to establish that it remains in compliance with the requirements of this section and of Sections 2089 and 2089.5 of the code.
(g) The documentation submitted pursuant to subsection (f)(2) shall be reviewed by the division or its designee to determine whether the institution remains in compliance with the requirements of those regulations and of Sections 2089 and 2089.5 of the code.
(h) The division may at any time withdraw its determination of equivalence when an institution is no longer in compliance with this section...

What does this mean?

It differentiates between schools/programs that teach their own citizens and those that are set-up on Carib. islands (and other places such as Poland) to teach non-citizens. (You are right about the language; but it goes hand-in-hand with citizenship.)

For purposes of California licensure, the school/program is therefore key.

Accusing the board of corruption is (IMO) childish.

Originally Posted by asianTSwantsMD

5) Planning legal remedy after attending a non-approved school/program is at best a pipe dream. The medical board (whether fair or not) has statuatory authority to determine whether an applicant meets criteria. In addition, if a person attended a non-approved school, after finishing residency, being in debt a couple hundred k, will they realistically have the financial werewithal to mount a legal challenge?

Answer: highly unlikely.

go pro bono. the best way to pay off student loans and get a cali license at the same time is to file a class action lawsuit against the cali board.

So, if someone wants to have the option of practicing in California someday, do yourself a favor. Go to an approved school or program and avoid headaches later.

that is the most unfortunate thing in this issue. the cali board's moronic interpretation and implementation of licensing laws end some student's dreams. i can only afford 6000 dollars a year for all med school and living expenses. I want a med school that is strong in research, with world class professors, and has good clinical facilities.

with my budget and goals, it seems i will end up taking the english md program of a russian pediatric academy. the cali board says english MD programs in eastern europe and russia are not approved. should i listen? no. if i do, then that will be the end of my dream.

My idea of going to med school is not just to finish my degree, pass usmle, do residency and get licensed. i want to maximize my time in med school, learn a lot of things and stay focus on my goal of becoming a pediatric plastic surgeon. medical knowledge and clinical skills, for me, are more important than USMLE or state license.

i don't want to choose a med school using the cali board's idiocy. my mind is set on a russian med school after reading numerous clinical/medical abstracts, journals, and reseach on russian pediatrics/plastic surgery. with or without the cali board's appoval, I want to learn pediatric plastic surgery, microsurgery, tissue culture, osteogenesis (bone replication), non-invasive surgery, use of miniaturized surgical tools, etc.

I think with my 6000 dollars a year for six years, i can learn all these things in a pediatric medical academy in st. petersburg. if in the future cali does not want me, maybe somewhere in africa or asia, i will be needed.

PURSUE YOUR DREAM AGAINST ALL ODDS!

The best of luck to you.

BTW, going pro bono is probably not an option. After all, who will take a case from a board-certified physician to sue to California Medical Board for free? Even if you find the effort, time and money to sue them, the outcome is unlikely to be in your favor.

Also, there are three approved English language programs in the region. (Charles, Semmelweis and Szeged are all approved.)

Miklos

[Miklos]

Originally Posted by cristagali

AsiantSwants raises some interesting issue. Of course Miklos makes a very sound arguement also (and is the position of the Cali board to date). To anyone, not on the approved list, have you TRIED to APPLY to the CA Board? What was their response? As I stated earlier, NO HUNGARIAN school is on TEXAS' "approved" list. But there are many Hungarian doctors working in Texas, who had to go through a secondary process. A little longer and cumbersome, but licenses were granted. My question is, has anyone on an individual basis applied for CA letter? What was the outcome?

I know a grad from a non-approved English language program in Hungary who is fighting to get a California license. She has completed residency and is board certified, but cannot obtain a license because her program is not approved. Their response, according to her, was as I posted elsewhere:

"Thanks for applying, but unfortunately, the med board cannot evaluate your application, as the program you've attended is not approved."

[azskeptic]

Originally Posted by Miklos

I know a grad from a non-approved English language program in Hungary who is fighting to get a California license. She has completed residency and is board certified, but cannot obtain a license because her program is not approved. Their response, according to her, was as I posted elsewhere:

"Thanks for applying, but unfortunately, the med board cannot evaluate your application, as the program you've attended is not approved."

also, unless you want an interesting time with other boards, don't apply places where you are going to get denied. You'll be filling out explanations for the remainder of your life as a doctor.

[gawtti]

being from california, i think the board is doing a great job. it is unfortunate that because of a few bad apples that all the legit ones have to suffer. maybe it's discrimination, unethical, unconstitutional, whatever you want to call it. i still feel that the california board is doing a good job. AND, i'm not just saying this because i attend a cali accredited school because i don't.

BUT, if your dream is to become a doctor. don't let this california issue stop you from pursuing your dream. i'm from california and believe me, it's not worth all the hype. like asianTSwantsMD said, go to afirca or asia where they really need doctors.

one more thing, please DO YOUR RESEARCH ON A SCHOOL!! choose it wisely, and if you have the cash. go out and visit the school, talk to the students. i could not STRESS this more. do not go by how cheap the tuition is!!!!!!!! it's the quality that counts!!!!!!!!!

and, 2 of 3 cali approved MD enlgish programs in eastern europe are located in hungary. hopefully, by the time i'm done here we'll be cali approved.