.....................

Although I agree that IUHS and MCL are both suspect schools and that MCL does not have a charter... I have to bring it to your attention that what I bolded is an insignificant point.

Firstly, of all of the caribb schools, which one is WHO listed in the USA or britian? The answer is none, however much if not all of the clinical teaching is done in the US and/or britian. If teaching must be done in the country of charter, then all of these schools would become instantly extinct. Plus, that does not even address the fact that several schools have basic science semesters in the US such as Ross(miami) and St. Mathews (maine).

I know that it is not medical schools, but many US schools have sattelite campuses in different states and even different countries (Ga Tech has a great deal of campuses internationally). I still fail to realize how that is an unethical practice?

I do agree that distance learning is wrong. I do think that every medical student should be on a campus and in labratories during their medical education. I also agree that if a school has its own name, it should have its own charter(MCL) and not have its degrees rubber stamped by a internet medical school. However, I have to disagree that sattelite campuses are wrong.

__________________
BTS4202
St. Christopher's COM
4th Year
http://www.mdparadise.com

"If there really is a God, He has a lot of explaining to do"
- Dennis Leary

WHO approval comes for the school after the country issues a letter recognizing the school. England won't recognize virtual medical schools.

distance education for things that don't require labs,etc. seem possible but NO us medical school is doing distance education for their students in the first 2 years. Shortly I believe you will see a ruling in the US that will BAN students getting licensed who haven't physically attended their schools...this will render the virtual schools worthless.

Az Skeptic
www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com

That is exactley right.

That is also right

I also agree with you here. However there is a discrepancy in your terminology. There is a difference in a virtual school (distance learning) and a satellite campus (on campus learning at different site than main campus). Re-read my post when you have a minute, there are many institutions that have satellite campuses.

__________________
BTS4202
St. Christopher's COM
4th Year
http://www.mdparadise.com

"If there really is a God, He has a lot of explaining to do"
- Dennis Leary

Yes, there are satellite campuses. But you are required to go there to go to class. The 'virtual' schools (UHSA,MCL,IUHS,Oceania,etc.) are basically setup as traps to get DC's, DPM's, DDS's, and RN's to continue working full time and 'attending' medical school via the internet. A few may slip through the system in terms of licensing but ultimately when the states realize that they didn't go to the school itself (or an approved satellite that meets WHO approval I suppose) they risk losing their licenses.

I realize that St. Christophers is a 'satellite' of an African school but it appears to be working so I wouldn't sweat it. Another African school St. Luke, is not in the same situation...their MD degrees are worthless from what I can learn....NO ONE has got licensed or even a residency who attended their virtual school that anyone can find.

Az Skeptic

Are you a Medical student? If not, are you pissed because you could not go to med school and decide to take on a "crusade" of your own?

I am curious,can someone tell me, 5 or 10 years from now , once some U.S. Medical schools start doing their BASIC sciences virtually, who will be here to criticize them? Or is it that NO ONE can take the initiative to take advantage of technology in medical education and do it right unless is the all mighty US. of America? Are poeple in this forum that ignorant?

There are indeed some bad schools out there, but lets face the facts, and the facts are people are gangbanging these schools because they are foreign schools, some people just can't take the pill that somoene outside the U.S. jumped the gun and started this virtual education miasma. Some of these schools are bad, yes, but some are well intentioned.

By the way Az Skeptic, OSU, has been doing distance learining in basic sciences for some reasonable time now. This is not new. OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY SOM. Check their website. Also this has been done in a "little" country called Australia for quite a while. Sydney to be precise.

Hey, you Az skeptic, I want to debate this with you, if you are wiling to do so objectively. Are you game? Lets brainstorm a little bit.

My rules are simple...no personal insults. no bigotry, no foul language, no fanaticism.

Wanta play???

sure,let's talk.

I'm 52,not a medical student,nor interested in being one. I have 2 interests in this...1. my son is contemplating medical school so want to know all the possibilities. 2. I am interested in battling quackery. Got interested in offshore medical schools after seeing schools advertising to chiropractors,dentists,etc. that they can continue their full time practices and go to medical school via the internet. Started studying how medical education is done in the US and realized that in no shape or form are schools that offer distance education equivalent to US medical schools.

I am not a frustrated doctor wanna-be...not my interest. I have been a consumer advocate working on a host of medical issues for a few years. I am well read,know alot of people, and happy to discuss things. Not interested in internet wars....have been on the internet with an email address since 1983..host alot of listservs and know how things are.

I am a cheerleader for those who are doing the sacrifices to become physicians. You who go to offshore medical schools and change your residence are gutsy and brave folks. Reminds me of when I saw Russian physicians emigrate to Israel back in the 80's and have to learn many new things. Impressive.

I am not anti-chiropractors--have a few friends who are DC's...I am skeptical about those who are looking for easy ways of learning. Everything costs something. I believe in scientific evidence based medicine. I believe that education is a wonderful thing and our society depends on well educated physicians to help us with our health. But as Judge Judy says "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it is raining". I believe that because some courses are taught via distance education doesn't mean that you can stay home and do your chiropractic/dental/podiatric practices and attend school on the internet at night. I believe that state medical boards are smarter than that also and have personally spoken or corresponded with every medical board in the US and Canada.

Best regards:

az skeptic

And the issues I am addressing you are the following, just to refresh your memory...

"can someone tell me, 5 or 10 years from now , once some U.S. Medical schools start doing their BASIC sciences virtually, who will be here to criticize them? Or is it that NO ONE can take the initiative to take advantage of technology in medical education and do it right unless is the all mighty US. of America? "

"There are indeed some bad schools out there, but lets face the facts, and the facts are people are gangbanging these schools because they are foreign schools, some people just can't take the pill that somoene outside the U.S. jumped the gun and started this virtual education miasma."

"By the way Az Skeptic, OSU, has been doing distance learining in basic sciences for some reasonable time now. This is not new. OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY SOM. Check their website. Also this has been done in a "little" country called Australia for quite a while. Sydney to be precise"

Those are the issues I want you to address objectively. Not your biography, with all due respect.

Can you add something to my arguement? Lets stir the pot a little bit.

Ok, let's compare the two programs:

the faculty at OSU SOM

http://medicine.osu.edu/about/school...ntscenters.cfm

compare that to the listing at IUHS:

http://www.iuhs.edu/html/faculty.html
(check and see how many of their faculty are actually fulltime and
even on the island of St. Kitts)

or at UHSA

http://www.uhsa.ag/admin_faculty/

That Ohio uses "some" distance education doesn't negate the fact that they have close supervision of their students and they don't give advanced placement to non-medical school people like the above schools do. They don't ask their students to get help from 'big brothers/big sisters' who have been in the schools before them. They have full blown research programs going on and ample opportunities for their students to get into clinicals.

But let's talk brass tacks. Offshore medical schools are not the full thing but they are your choice if you don't have the grades to get into a US medical school or if you are a non-traditional student (older,educated in something else). Nothing wrong with it. It is a different way. But if you want to be a US doctor you need to go to medical school,not peer through a computer and go out and find a 'mentor' on your own.

The state boards realize that there is a problem and shortly you'll see more states (last count I figure there were 20 states where you can't license if you were to graduate with a distance education MD) rule that these degrees are worthless. If you don't believe me, contact your states and ask them about getting a degree from a school that you don't physically attend.

I don't know about Sydney Australia. But is has nothing to do,in my humble opinion, with distance education,which can be a tool. The problem with the current schools I mention (www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com) is that they have ragtag groups of professors, non-existent facilities basically, poor supervision of their students, no help for their students, and provide little chance of licensing.

Don't take my word for it. Just contact the state boards and ask them. Ask them what they are talking about in their Administrators in Medicine meeting in October in Orlando Florida. My goal as a consumer advocate is to see all of the states in the US require that foreign graduates meet the same equivalency as US med schools and if you are one of the people doing the 'virtual med school attempt' if I was a betting man, I would bet you that you have major problems in getting licensed in most states,perhaps all states. This same thing happened in the 1980s when some chiropractors went to Russia for an advanced MD program--it took the boards a while to catch on but they pulled the licenses.

Glad to dialogue.

Az Skeptic-Dean Hughson

For starters, IUHS requires some minimum on site attendance, If you don't belive me, go there by yourself, I did. The facilities are bad, true, but they have had quite an improvement in their last USMLE STEP I results with 6 out of six students passing with an average of 88. And they have a pathetic long distance program, according to you and some other people.

And, to correct you, there are more than 20 states that have a problem with long distance education. I did that homework in August 2002. By the way, there are barely 7 states that will allow licensure from this kind of program, and you know why? Because they can care less how you did your BASIC SCIENCES COURSES, what matters to them is that you did CLINICAL ROTATIONS in green book hospitals and have residence training At least there are some open minded people out there.

Lets not loose the true perspective here, we are talking about long distance education for basic sciences ONLY. NOT CLINICALS, that will be preposterous and ridiculous. Are you aware that in many U.S. Schools sutdents barely attend class? I remember, at a student orientation at a prestigious osteopathic school that senior students were telling us that they did not have time to sleep through classes and spent time studying on their own. These are folks that are now practicing and licensed physicians. Ask at any major medical school and you will be surprised by the amount of students that never show up in class.

I don't see a problem with a school asking students to ask for help to their "big brother or sister" who have been in school before. That is called mentoring.

Again , you have not answered my question....were are you going to be when many U.S. SCHOOLS TAKE ON THIS APPROACH. I KNOW YOU WILL NOT DARE TO CRITICIZE BECAUSE IT WILL BE AN OMNIPOTENT U.S. school, you are already biased.

Just to blow your bubble, Sydney, Australia has everything to do with distance education in medical school basic sciences. They originated it, NOT IUHS. Ask them.

Concerning you comments, that
"The problem with the current schools I mention (www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com) is that they have ragtag groups of professors, non-existent facilities basically, poor supervision of their students, no help for their students, and provide little chance of licensing."
NO ONE CAN GUARANTEE LICENSING WHEN YOU COME FROM AN OFFSHORE SCHOOL.



ABOUT THE FLORIDA MEETING, LET ME BREAK YOU THE NEWS, IT WAS ME, WITH A GROUP OF PISSED OFF STUDENTS FROM SOME Caribbean Schools who first filed complaints in Florida about some of these schools, and we did that in 2001. It takes time for a State to investigate , that simple.

Now, can we address the issue I asked, about why if it was not done in the U.S. it was not good enough? You have barely addressed that issue and that is my question. Lets get into it. I already cited Australia, St.Kitts as examples. Tht the St. Kitts program is deficient, maybe, but having so many students passing the same exam with relatively good scores as their U.S. counterparts should ring a bell, don't you think so?

Besides, it is not basic sciences what really makes a good doctor, it is how good they are in their rotations and hands on practice. Do you have any idea, how many U.S. students with high grades during basic sciences don't make it through clinicals? Ask yourself that question before you let your blindfolded bias take over your thoughts. Be objective, open your mind, the world is bigger than you see it.

Remember, the robe does not make the monk, it just identifies him.

Before you speculate, I am studying medicine in Mexico, in my 6th year(Mexico is different from the states, it takes six years of med-school, one year social services and one year slave work before you graduate. I JUST don't see a problem with distance education for basic sciences, thats my thing and I believe that for basic sciences, it should not be that big of a deal as long as you pass your USMLE's and do clinicals in real hospitals. Actually thats what IUHS and maybe St.Luke is all about. But of course the phrase..."DISTANCE EDUCATION" FREAKS ALMOST EVERYONE OUT and does not leave space to get deeper into what really is all about.

Now, can you address my question? It was in my first message and second, I won't repeat it bacause it is becomming boring.

sayonara