I think we will just have to agree to disagree, as I do not believe that there is an objective way to measure this and I have no desire to list the Semmelweis research accomplishments.

Well to add a few more to Deb Grad's list of National Level Research:


Dr. Laslo Modis M.D, D.Sc. (Anatomy Full Professor) -- Collagen Typing
Dr. Peter Molnar M.D, Phd, C.Sc (Behavior Science - Head of Department - Vice President of DOTE) -- Balint Study Groups

A few Professors are Nobel Prize nominees as well !!

Like I have said before -- I personally feel Debrecen (DOTE) has a better Theoretical study -- in their curriculm (Years 1-3) and Budapest has a better Clinical study in their curriculm (Years 4-6) !!!!

Good Luck to all!

One last post on this topic, before I tire of it.

Nobel prize nominees seem to be a dime a dozen in Hungarian medical universities, as every university claims a couple. Not a big deal in my mind, unless one of them actually wins it.

Re: Debrecen vs. Budapest. There is a complicated background to this, that most foreigners (even those attending med schools) are not aware of. Due to social and historical reasons, people from the other cities (e.g. Debrecen, Pecs, Szeged) have quite a chip on their shoulder when it comes to comparing themselves to Budapest. Part of the reason is that Budapest has ruled over the rest ever since its three disparate parts united in 1873 to form Budapest and thereafter the city really emerged as Hungary's center. This is even more so the case with Debrecen, which is the seat of the Hungarian Calvinist Church and has likened itself as the "Calvinist Rome" since the 16th century Reformation. As Debrecen also played a pivotal role in the Hungarian revolution against the Habsburgs in the mid 19th century, many in Debrecen feel slighted by Budapest becoming the capital city. (Much the same applies to Pecs and to a lesser degree Szeged, for different historical reasons.)

We could go on and on about this topic, but I doubt that it will serve anyone.

If someone wishes to compare the two med schools, I suggest that they visit both cities and see which is to their liking. (Additionally, one can hope that Debrecen will soon get California recognition as well.)

Miklos

First, noone has said that either of the universities are truly superior to the other one. Not being the typical foreigner-to-hungary for MD licensing I have been able to spend a lot of time in each of the four cities that have medical universities. Pecs is probably the lowest in the ranking but if you work hard you will probably pass your boards. The next is Szeged which is not only a very nice little town but also houses a good university. Then comes the we-will-not-agree topic of Budapest and Debrecen. They each have their pros and cons. Besides Miklos probably living in Budapest and never attending Debrecen his views are not as neutral as he attempts to portray. Also, Living in Debrecen for many years and being absolutely fluent in the language, I NEVER heard any person on the street or medical professor ever say " Gees, I really hate Budapest, they stole the capital from us". You have got to be kidding! The comparison of the two universities is being based in the present, not during the calvinist times. And for your history lesson Debrecen was the first formal medical faculty/college in Hungary.

Miklos, many people on this forum take what is written fairly seriuosly and some may even base their lives decisions on some of these postings. I think we could both agree that the hungarian medical university system is a good system. It is in fact much harder than those in some of the neighboring countries. Is there corruption? Sure there is. But, if you keep yourself out of that game and study hard the corruption will not envelope you. The goal of the hungarian medical system is not to train foreign citizens to go back home. It is to trani hungarians. There is however the possibility for foreigners to train and then to use their knowledge to go to other countries. I got so tired of hearing people say that the education is not "USMLE-based". NO KIDDING!! You are in HUNGARY! All you have to do is define USMLE -United States Med Lic Exam - There you have it. So take your body systems review books, your NMS CD-ROMS and STUDY!!!

I not only got into a residency in the USA without incident I have successfully transferred into a surgical subspecialty. There are no limits if you work. Who cares if you went to Budapest or Debrecen ultimately!

Also, WHO CARES IF DEBRECEN IS RECOGNIZED IN CALIFORNIA!!!! AHHHHHHH, all this talk about california. Are they the final determiners of the worth of a mediacl degree??? Unless you WANT to live in California this topic is completely ridiculous. For all you Californians in Hungary - GO to Budapest.

DebGrad

Once again here are my personal views on the basis of why I chose Debrecen over Budapest: (Repost)

Debrecen is the second largest city in Hungary, and is approxiamatly 2 and half hours away from Budapest the Capital. Just recently the entire city center (Centrum) of Debrecen has undergone reconstruction and refurbishment. The city has now gotten a visual appeal of many western European cities with the archetectural beauty of pre WWII buildings. In general, the city is quite small compared to Budapest, but I find that to be a positive aspect as a student (can focus more on studies). Debrecen's economy is based on the influx of foriegn students whom provide the means of salary for numerous Hungarian families (taxi drivers, bars, clubs). The greater majority of medical students reside close to the University, from where they can take a tram (8 minute ride) to the city center.

In regards to the Universities, both Semmelweis and DOTE are great Universities. They are both the best out of the four medical Universities in Hungary in their respective areas (Clinical and Theory). Each of which have their Pro's and Con's.... This is based on my personal beliefs, and considerations that I took in choosing where I would study !

DOTE:
Pro's :
Small City - student can focus on studies, campus is all in one area, good transportation system throughout city
Small Class size - compared to Budapest - (1 Class or group is no more than 12 students)
Better Theory - as in the first 3 years
Loans - Stafford, Teri
A lot cheaper than Budapest to live in - (eating, socialzing, and living)
Great teaching staff - including Nobel prize nominee's
6 Year Medical Program
European Union Recognition

Con's :
Small City - can get boring- majority of the time you interact and socialize in the same areas with the same people, but Budapest is only 2 and half hours away.
Language


Budapest (Semmelweis) - I think Miklos can elaborate a lot better about it!

Pro's
Large City - Beautiful, lively, very diverse -- Considered the "Paris of this decade"
Better Clinicals (3-6) than Debrecen
Language - English is spoken a lot better in Budapest
Loans - Stafford (not sure about Teri)
European Union recongnition

Con's
Expensive - In comparision to Debrecen - Including Tuition
Campus is very spread out as Miklos has mentioned

Once again these idealations are my personal viewpoints on both schools -

Umm...I'm sorry, but I really can't let you get away with having the last word (especially after starting that other thread).

I stand by my posts.

Additionally, for reference only, I am fluent in Hungarian to the point that while doing my "szigorlat" I do as much (if not more) than the Hungarian students, including admitting patients. I have been to ALL Hungarian med. schools and have spoken extensively to English and Hungarian students (as well as German program students at Semmelweis) from all schools.

I disagree with a number of points you bring up.

-The ranking of med schools, but I have always pointed out the plusses and minuses of each. I believe that I am equally critical of all of them. (N.B.: Note that on the schools in europe sticky, I added Debrecen!)

-California accreditation. I would also like to point out that Szeged is also recognized. BTW, I (as well as Nitin, I'm sure) hope that Debrecen and Pecs receive their California recognition in the near future so that we can point out that all Hu. schools have recognition.

-History. Actually, the honor of first university in Hungary with a good probability of the first formal medical education goes to Pecs (1367), as my friends there keep pointing out to me.

I really disagree with your statement that I've underlined. I am glad that Debrecen got you where you are today. (BTW, I would be curious in which surgical subspeciality you are in.) Sadly, there are limits on being an IMG (due to the deck being stacked against you) and the road back home to a residency from here is far from the easiest one. Schools and agents promise otherwise.

I think that it is important that individuals get all points of view before deciding. Equally, I keep stressing that they should ask the appropriate questions in person at the given school of the administration and students (while unsupervised).

I think that my criticisms are valid.

I personally am running against time on the issue of California Accreditiation because I would like for DOTE to obtain it prior to my graduation..... so I can try to match in the state of CA.

On the issue of new students applying to DOTE, I do not think that CA. accreditation is a major issue.... because I personally know the application process is very, very, very lengthy, and the processing time is just as lenghty..., but on the bright side of the issue -- Since Budapest and Szeged have already obtained CA accreditation, and all four of the Medical programs in Hungary are very similar (same courses different years) - I think DOTE will have no problem in obtaining accreditation!!!! (Cross my fingers)

hmm. perhaps its better to go on down to the school and ask the students how they feel about the school. It is a very nice country nevertheless, and the academics and research are very strong.

__________________
Attending

then again, many US students would say the same thing about most IMGs- a joke. BUt so far the Hungarian students at least haven't started talking like an American Idol judge.

__________________
Steph
If you get a warning, put on yer manpants and stop whining about it.

Whatupdog6969 in response to your prior post I would like to thank you for addressing the issue of Clinical Rotations and DOTE!

The reason I was inquiring about setting up Clinical Rotations was:

At DOTE you have the option to do the 5th Pathway (www.fifthpathway.com) (1 year of supervised Clinical Rotations affiliated with NYMC) to do your Clinical Core Rotations. (Currently there are 2 individuals enrolled in the 5th Pathway program from DOTE) And numerous others have utilized that option in prior years

Another possiblity to do your Clinical Rotations (Clerkships) in the USA is via the Hungarian Medical Association in which you can be eligible to do Clerkships at certain hospitals in NY (Sunny Downstate).

You are also able to do Clinical Core rotations on your own, if you can set them up via connections, family members, or through agencies such as PGY1MD, Clinical Coordinators, and Alliance.

The last option is complete them in Hungary - at each individual Department.


I think these options pertain to most all European Universities - with exception of Poland (HMI's - scam of medical education) I do believe HMI was affilated with DOTE and for numerous years, but the school terminated HMI's contract because HMI wanted to make changes in DOTE's traditional curriculm to better suit his students and agency......therefore he found alternative University in Poland where he could establish such a program! When HMI's contract was terminated the agency gave the HMI students' at DOTE the option to transfer to Poland and pursue their education through HMI or stay at DOTE without an agent - (even though they paid HMI's $10,000 fee) Therefore, numerous HMI students took the option of transferring..... Also another reason students transfer from DOTE is because they FAIL OUT or can not keep up with the curriculm (Honestly, I believe you are one of these bitter individuals) so they find an easier option.