Yep. We can practise anywhere in Europe. Norway has an exam (like usmle). Yes, we can also do residencies anywhere in Europe. some guys from our school are doing plastic surgery in Germany - really really top guys they are learning with and others are in Switzerland and Sweden. S-

Yep. We can practise anywhere in Europe. Norway has an exam (like usmle). Yes, we can also do residencies anywhere in Europe. some guys from our school are doing plastic surgery in Germany - really really top guys they are learning with and others are in Switzerland and Sweden. You must organize it yourself. S-

I am looking for any and all advice anyone can give me. I have a ** in biomedical science with a 3.5, and I haven't taken the MCATS but will if necessary. I am planing to get my MPH here in the states, but would also like to get my MD. I have no real interest in practicing medicine in the US, but I am interested in working in developing countries. I have some experience doing this as a helath volunteer with the peace corps for two years.
Studying abroad apeals to me because of the cultural experience, the chance to learn another language, and the price is a little less than med school in the US. However, my fears are that I will end up with a useless degree and have wasted 4-6 years of my life.

Anyway...my question is simply this
Would I be better off going to medical school in the US or somewhere in Europe? Which would give me the most flexibility? And the most rewarding expierence? Which would best prepare me for a medical career in forgein countries all over the world?
-Acacia

My personal experience in this category would say that if you are MORE interested in practicing overseas then you are much better off doing your degree in the country in which you are interested in. Europe would be an exeption to this as you can do a degree in Europe and be recognized in the EU without much hassle.

I can't speak for everyone here but a US degree in Australia is not well respected. The American doctors here are basically holding on to temporary jobs in less then desirable locations and have very little hope of ever receiving fellowship. American residency positions are shorter in duration than most of the residency positions overseas and most countries are protectionist in nature. You will likely have to write a lot of tests to get any of your American residency recognized and even then you will have to repeat most or all of your residency positions.

If your goal is to practice in Europe you are much better served getting a degree in the Caribbean (at a big school) as this is recognized in the UK where you can do residency or an even better decision would be to attend a European school.

If your goal is to practice in Australasia then your best bet is to get a degree from that region as you will have a lot less hassles.

Finally if your ultimate goal is the US I think it wouldn't be a smart decision to turn down a US MD/DO school.

A US degree unfortunately does not prepare you well for practicing in other countries around the world. I think Americans think more highly of themselves then what they are in actual fact worth. (This is my own personal opinion...and I base this on the observations of American doctors within my state).

Hi.

You mention you want to be able to practise in 'foreign countries all over the world." Well even within the same country licenses are specific by province or state as in Canada and the US.

Maybe you are thinking of doing this developing nation work for a few years and then return 'home' to practise. Doctors without borders would be an organization that does supply doctors to crisis areas (natural disasters, developing nations, war zones etc.) and they want solidly accredited people. In the middle east for example, they want north american and select European countries' graduates.

Maybe another way of looking at it is who do you think your employer will be? The peace corps? The United Nations? The World Health Organization? A local hospital in country X? A mission/church in country X?

I'm also not sure of your age or your financial circumstances, but a US degree gives you choices whereas a degree from Nigeria or Albania or wherever you think you want to practise is quite limited. If you are young, you may change your mind about what is important to you in a few years. Life is change and what you think is cool or neat now, may not be where your head is in a few years. Like if you are single now, maybe you will fall in love and want to marry and settle down. What if he/she doesn't want to live in poor country X. What if he/she or you can't if your parents are aging or ill. What if you want kids. Do you want them to live in poor and/or violent and/or disease ridden country X? Do you want to be able to financially afford to send them to university?

Look, I don't know anything about you except a few sentences, but if you have the opportunity to study medicine in American, I would say that gives you flexibility to practise abroad or go abroad for a few years. And there are always clinical rotiations to be done in tropical medicine or infectious disease etc. that you can do abroad.

This pathway gives you options, whereas the other seems to limit you.

I've done work with different aid organizations (Canada - CIDA & American = USAID as well as the UNDP - United Nations Development Program). The organizations have laudable goals, unfortunately the execution leaves much to be desired. Many politics and career hungry individuals, your idealism may not survive intact.

Good luck with your choice. S-

Two things I would like to point out:

1) The Norwegian State Exam is nothing like the USMLE. The number of questions on it approximate that of a single block of the USMLE, plus their examination time is somewhere in the range of six hours...You do the math as to the degree of difficulty. That and everyone seems to pass. Very few Norwegians take the exam a second time. Also, it is all clinical and the answers to the questions are found in one of two or three texts.

2) Re: working all over Europe. In theory, yes; in practice no. Depends in part on the country you wish to go to and the passport you hold. Britain by example has agreed to waive the seven year waiting period for free movement of labor for those holding passports of the countries joining the EU. Germany by contrast has not. Re: recognition of diploma; in theory, yes, but I would wait and see. My impression is that unless there is a need for doctors or the EU forces them, most countries will hold applicants to the letter of the law.

Thanks for all of the advice.

Yes I would agree that USAID etc. have there problems in implementation and usually seem somewhat disconected from the actual culture in any given country that they seem to be helping which is why i don't want a managment job with them, though there is a good chance that is exactly where I might end up.

I am planning on starting my MPH in the fall of 2004, and upon completing this going into medical school. So it will be awhile before I am actually in a position to practice medicine. So my future goals may change a great deal between now and then. Area's of the world that I would be interested practicing in would be Latin America, Africa, and Eastern Eruope.


I guess my question really is this, If I get a medical degree within the Europeam Union how hard is it in turn to be liscened in America or another country or vice versa if I get a medcial degree in America how hard will it be to become liscensed to practice in the EU or another country. Yes I know every country has different rules and regulations, but is it possible to make generalizations about wich degree would be recognized by more countrys?

I am just begining to really investigate all of this so all thoughts and ideas are appreciated.

Sadly as of right now, there is no free trade in the "North Atlantic marketplace" for physicians. Protectionism is alive and well.

There are four problems as I see them:

1) Recognition of the medical degree
2) Examinations
3) Recognition of postgraduate training
4) Visas/Work permits

Recognition of the medical degree

In theory, a North American medical degree is fully recognized in both the US and Canada, however, certain states and provinces may make exceptions or impose limitations on those degrees.

An EU degree SHOULD BE recognized by all EU member states as well as EEC states (Norway, Switzerland and Iceland), but the EU's record is well, at best spotty in this. They have recognized that and they are working on getting the miscreant governments to take steps to correct this. However, a word of warning. Southern states including Greece, Italy and Spain seem to be more protectionistic (perceived glut of physicians) than their northern friends. I have been told that getting your degree recognized in Greece is a nightmare without connections, and hard work and patience with connections. By contrast, those countries have a physician shortage, notably the Nordics and Britain are much more welcoming.

An EU degree obtained at a school teaching in its native language (!) is almost universally accepted by the ECFMG, as well as the individual states. An EU degree obtained at a school/program teaching in a non-native language (i.e. English) may not be, depending on the state. The acid test seems to be California, which so far only recognizes the English language programs at Semmelweis (Budapest) and Szeged (both in Hungary), throughout the "Eastern European" region although other schools are in the process of applying for recognition of their programs.

A North American degree is NOT universally recognized throughout the EU/EEC. Each member state decides what requirements must be met. Again, those with physician shortages are much more likely to be liberal, those with gluts tend to be highly protectionistic.

Examinations

US; USMLE is required of ALL potential licensees by all states in the U.S. no matter where the medical degree was obtained. (I will ignore old examinations for purposes of brevity.)

Canada; I'm not an expert, I think that you can find more info on this in the Canada forum, but the USMLE is not accepted as the Canadian system has its own exam.

EU/EEC; Each country sets up its own state examination system and decides who to apply it to. In theory, someone who has "professional recognition" (i.e. membership in one of the doctor's associations) does not need to be examined once again.

Recognition of postgraduate training

Very roughly, the US and Canada (with some significant exceptions) recognize each other's postgraduate training and NONE OTHER.

The EU/EEC, again in theory, recognizes postgraduate training in member states. IT DOES NOT RECOGNIZE (there maybe some very minor exceptions) US/Canadian postgraduate training.

Visas/Work permits

So, even if you are able to get past 1,2 and 3; you may end up with a Visa/Work permit problem. Again, those places that need physicians will find a way to offer Visas/Work permits to people coming from the "right" country. Those that do not, will not.

EU/EEC nationals should have no problem getting work permits for member states.

Re: Immigration to US/Canada; I simply do not know enough.

Anyone like to add anything?