What crazy to me is the way chiros jumping on new crazy techniques or bandwagons to justify their treatment. I recently saw a chiropractic seminar at a hotel where there are booths and dcs selling thing like Surface EMG, lazer cold treatments, and sublingual vitamins techniques. One guy was trying to correlate Surface EMG to spinal subluxations and claiming it's better than Xray to diagnosis subluxation. I didnt know subluxation causing EMG reading abnormalities, i wonder is there any independent research for this. The bottomline is instead using proven technique like manipulation and rehab exercise to treat their patients, DCs go for the first "shinny" theory or gadget to try recuit more pts even most if not all sound so ridiculous. And that is the same thing with vaccine issues. How can you guys think this will help mainstream DCs in general? OMG.

Surface EMG would change is a vertebra is putting pressure on a spinal nerve, would you agree? There is actually a lot of research in that area, believe it or not. The other stuff... chiros will jump on anything they think will make them a quick buck. Actually, chiro's shouldn't even be doing rehab, but you can only "adjust" someone so many times without addressing the muscular component of it. "Straight" chiros don't address anything but the subluxation itself, not vitamins, no posture advise, no therapies, nothing but the adjustment itself, to re-align the joints and let the body heal itself. They don't even care if you have a problem and they don't care if it goes away.. they are simply there to locat, analyze and correct your misaligments and let the body do whatever it wants to do.

I think medicine should employ former chiros, turned MDs.. to teach "the chiro way" to either PMR docs or have a PMR subspecialty (also open to IM and FM). This would eventually put chiros out and people would have their trusted, scientific MD to go to for their "adjustments".

__________________
John Webb, MS, DC, CCEP, DAAIM, FAAPM
SMU
STUDENT
MD 2010
MBA 2009

A bad day at school is still better than a good day at work.

No i dont agree with that, because if you are talking about nerve compression would have a different signs and symptomps. What i mean is if u want to say nerve compression like in case of disc hernia compressing a nerve, you would have sharp radiate dermatomal pain and muscles weakness. While trigger points and muscle pain that chiros seems to have dull aching pain and no muscles weakness at all. So how can surface EMG dectect that? Furthermore, i observed how some demo at the seminar booth, it totally depend on the pressure and the person doing it. I seems like if you put more pressure on the pads, the reading is definely increase. So that doesnt seem very reliable and scientific to me. As some of the people here bring up the fact that something called subluxation theory is not even scientific proven or even close to it. So how do u use sEMG to determine something that u guys have no idea what it's? Jz a simple question. Bt maybe i dont know because i m not a DC.

I am not trying to put you down, but I would like to know, are you in medical school and if you are, how far along are you? You don't sound like you understand the dynamics of physical symptons, neuroscience or diagnostic testing.
As far as scientifically proven, as medical physicians, there are many things that we treat based on theory. In fact, most of what we do is in theory.. and the treatment outcome seems to confirm the theory. Chiro is the same. Chiropractors treat millions of people everyday, they are defined as physicians under Federal guidelines, have insurance billing rights, etc.. There is more than just hocus pocus to it. If it is all just smoke and mirrors... chiropractors would have pulled off the greatest deceptive feat ever, for over 100 years. Trust me... they aren't that smart.

To let you know.. I am not a chiropractic defender. However, I am sure your ignorance of the profession causes you to not understand concepts and practicing in that profession. I am just trying to give you the facts so you can understand both sides of an issue before automatically jumping to conclusions and making judgements. However, some people will always let their ignorance prevail and never attempt to understand something they do not understand and use their limited mental abilities to express negative comments about the things they do not comprehend.

__________________
John Webb, MS, DC, CCEP, DAAIM, FAAPM
SMU
STUDENT
MD 2010
MBA 2009

A bad day at school is still better than a good day at work.

So what are u saying? Subluxation causing the symptomps of trigger point and that can be dectect by sEMG? I m sure would like to see the research on that if you can provide to me. Thanks. What i m trying to say is the two conditions are total different in term of neurological using S/Sx to make diagnosis. Nerver root compression-disc hernia- will have radiating pain at the dermatomal pattern while trigger points are not nerve root compression type of injuries which are claimed by the sEMG machine to dectect. As much as u say about independent analysis, i dont see any MDs out there telling their patients they ve amenia when CBC and other proven lab results saying otherwise. And about the 60% reduce in nerve function with dime size pressure, if it's not produce any S/Sx or functional abnormality, then how clinically relevent is that. Just like if i m not breath at my Vital capacity every single moment in life doesnt mean that i will be in hypoxia state. Is that why DCs known for treatment without any clinical findings? Or what they call "maintain care"? And as for being professional, you typically go for the personal attack as soon as anyone wants an open honest debate, you should be thankful that MDs or futurre MDs like me would have this conversation with DCs. I m trying to have a better understand of your profession yet like most DCs all u do is personalize the matter. Thanks for showing the world how open mind and civil DCs are! Congratulation.

I was just clearly pointing out that you were using ignorant medical jargon in your argument. I don't think you are in medical school and I don't think you are very well educated on the matters you speak of. My profession is medicine, my old profession was chiropractic. Maybe you should do your homework and learn about SEMG, trigger points and radicular pain. I think one you get out of your undergrad anatomy course and learn in depth about these areas, you will have a better understanding. I can't explain physics, biochemistry, neuroscience and diagnostic testing to someone who doesn't understand the basics of these areas.

Sorry..

__________________
John Webb, MS, DC, CCEP, DAAIM, FAAPM
SMU
STUDENT
MD 2010
MBA 2009

A bad day at school is still better than a good day at work.

whoa once again typical chiros instead addressing the point of the issue, you use personal attack to make your points. How come i m not suprise! I would love to see the double blind research on sEMG and diagnosis neuromuscular conditions especially using it as diagnostic. Oh, since medicine is your bussiness now, do u know any hospital using that particular sEMG to diagnosis anything DC. Webb? So dont worry about me worry about your others chiros using sEMG and breaching against vaccinations. Good luck

I have yet to see a study that points to vaccines causing autism. Most kids who go without vaccines will be healthy, yes, because of the fantastic job this country does in sanitation. Everyone gets clean drinking water etc. Most cases of measles, mumps, polio, end without much, if any, long term sequelae. Same with the flu and pneumonia. Of course, people can have big time problems with these diseases. SSPE from measles, sterility etc. from mumps. Paralysis from polio. Death from flu and pneumonia. If just a few people in a society choose not to vaccinate their children, it isn't such a big deal. They are partially protected by the fact that everyone around them has been vaccinated. Since these things are often spread via droplets, if nobody around them has it, they won't get it. Problems will arise as more an more people see "medical" folks like chiros not vaccinating their children, see that those kids are "among the healthiest they have seen", and non-vaccination becomes widespread. Only then will vaccination be appreciated.

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AUC Class of '99
Bored certified
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Some say I look like Buzz Lightyear....
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DISCLAIMER: I have no financial stake in ValueMD, or any medical school.

Clearly you are still in undergrad and you don't understand what you are talking about. I am not going to waste my time explaining anything to someone who won't comprehend.

But yes.. Neurologist all over the coutry are using sEMG as a non-invasive diagnostic tool. Needle EMG test one muscle fiber, whereas sEMG can test more muscle fibrils or a majority of a muscle. As I am sure you are aware of, this is the same type of electrical signal a ECG picks up from the heart. Oh my God... we use SURFACE electrical impulses to diagnose a muscular condition?? OH NO.....
I will link you some neurology sites so you can study up..
www.aan.com/professionals/practice/pdfs/gl0095.pdf
www.neurology.org/cgi/content/full/56/10/1421?ck=nck
(this one talks about how they have shown in studies that sEMG is as effective as nEMG)
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies
(this site tells you about a new book, 2004, by a well known neurologist on uses of sEMG in neurology diagnosis)
Now as far as chiros dxing trigger points with EMG, I don't think that is valid. NO one really knows what causes trigger point. I do know that needle EMG has not found any voluntary muscle spasm at the NM JXN. They are now believed to be a result of a malfunction of the Muscle Spindle (intrafusal Gamma controled fibers) and not extrafusal Alpha's. This is interesting to me, since both fibers are located in the anterior horn and both exit through ventral efferent roots.

I think sEMG can help detect something is going on in the muscles, which may help detect dorsal nerve root pressure. Since you can't really check anterior branch function, checking muscle activity, or the post branch could show nerve disfunction. This nerve disfunction could be from nerve root compression, scar tissue formation or any type of disturbance to the axon or NM JXN itself.

The subluxation theory is interesting. Kinetic studies have shown that the average person's spine makes around 75,000 motions in a day. Due to our posture, sleep habits, stress, etc.. muscles of the back could hold one of the vertebrae slightly out of it's normal position. In most IVFs, there is very little "spare" room for the nerve root. If this misalignment is enough to case pressure on the tissues around the nerve root, it could cause compression. This compression may or may not induce pain, depending on the type of fibers being pressed and the extent of their compression. As I am sure you know, there are not many pain fibers along the spine itself (kind of like the heart) and these spinal nerves are not all sensitive to pain. Also, if the pain signal affects large fibers and Lamina IV and II, the pain could be shut off throught the pain gate mechanism. Like anyother tissue, prostaglandins and other inflammatory processes will begin in the nerve fiber. They nerve's Na/K pump is through off and as NA can't be pumped out of the axon's cells, it does like other tissues and swells. This swelling now exacerbates the problem and eventually, pain or muscle disfunction could ensue. From this process, the nerve action potential would be affected and possible pressure ischemia on myelin and/or nodes of Ranvier would be seen. These changed would be seen on sEMG.

Now, can chiropractic treatment actually fix this problem? I think in a majority of cases, they can. This treatment has been shown to be effective and this is evident by DO's continuing to perform it, MDs getting more interested in learning it and orthopedist and physiatrists also performing spinal manipulation. Other therapeutic treatments performed by chiropractors also help in ameliorate the pain and inflammation, therefore speeding up recovery.

Back to sEMG. I don't think chiro's need it. It is only a gadget to show the patient that something is or was there.. and after treatment it is gone. This does happen and is shown in pre/post sEMGs. Besides that, chiro's don't really use it, for the most part, as a diagnostic tool.

I hope I have answered your questions. If you have more, I would be more than happy to try to explain neurology, physiology, anatomy, histology and more with you again. I have plenty of time between doing my current research study (hybaric medicine and it's affect on brain stem/spinal cord injury), my medical school classes, my MBA classes and raising a family.
So, feel free to ask.

__________________
John Webb, MS, DC, CCEP, DAAIM, FAAPM
SMU
STUDENT
MD 2010
MBA 2009

A bad day at school is still better than a good day at work.

U know there is a saying:"All the education in world yet not any ounce of refinement!" Maybe DC. Webb can mix in some class during those degree u claim to do. Well i guess it's jz to much to ask from someone like u. So good luck with ur reseach, i look forward for it to be published. Stick and stone, DC. Webb!