I am bashing the quacks..not the good chiropractors. The problems are that those who believe in non-scientific chiropractic stuff (Life University is a good example) hurt those who try and do scientific treatment of patients.

There are good chiropractors who practice within the scope of things that they can replicate results i.e. lower back......if I had lower back problems I would go to one of them. az skeptic p.s. by the way, MD's who practice unscientific medicine i.e. woo woo I also feel are a danger and embarrasment to the helping profession.

__________________
Moderator - State Licensing Forum

Still skeptical after all these years.
This is it. There are no hidden meanings.WYSIWYG

http://www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com

http://www.chiropractormds.homestead.com/index.html

lets at least make a facimile of an attempt to stay on topic and not batter each other- if you have a personal grip with someone please consider trying to clear it up via PM.

AS for cream of the crap, be my guest; I didn't coin it.
steph

__________________
Steph
If you get a warning, put on yer manpants and stop whining about it.

No, but they sure are related to the original post.

I stand by my statement....based on intrastructure and success rates of their graduates you can call them the top 3.....az skeptic

__________________
Moderator - State Licensing Forum

Still skeptical after all these years.
This is it. There are no hidden meanings.WYSIWYG

http://www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com

http://www.chiropractormds.homestead.com/index.html

AZSKEPTIC...
I do not really agree with everything you say about chiropractic. I do agree that there are MANY that spoil our reputation. The scope is not as limited as you think, in fact we provide many scientific/physiological answers that MDs cannot answer when evaluating a muscular or skeletal disorder. Sure, you can go to a MD and get pain meds, steroid shots, or MRIs. What is you answer to your patient then, when they ask "how long need I be on this medication until it fixes my problem?" ...The answer is forever, which seems crazy. The pain did not start from a lack of meds, most pains are easy to explain. I know there are studies that only show chiropractic is good for LBP, but can't you also see that Low Back involvment and irritation causes radicular symptoms. Well, the same thing happens in the neck and mid-back...and even within the soft tissues of the limbs. Start asking people that slump down in their chair and carry their head front of their body how often they get headaches, and shoulder pain. Ask if their hands are ever numb or tingle. Chiros can manipulate AND perform rahab to restore these things. It just seemed to me that you believe that chiropractors can only help the low back and just adjust, adjust, and adjust. That is like saying an MD can only perscribe, prescribe, and prescribe. Their practice would be limited in that case. As for the success of chiros....They may seem less successful because they do have to start up their own clinic, they cannot just walk into a hospital and work (Well, I guess Truman Medical Center in Kansas City has chiros on staff now). Chiropractic schools are also very high in tuition, because they are all private right now. Also.....there are alot of wierd people that graduate. They don't choose chiro school because they did not get into med school. People that gravitate to "the natural way" (hippies, ect) tend to go to chiropractic school because that is more how they think. They are weird all together. I wish I could show you my point of view on chiropractic. We treat people with respect and are considered a doctor in the health care system. My mom is a RN, my sister is a Medical Doctor, and there are 15 chriopractors in my family (all fathers and sons). All the chiropractors in my family make between $500-700k each....it doesn't seem rough to me....just another view.

There are no DC's on staff of the hospital..read the press release..they are renting space for a clinic there

http://www.clevelandchiropractic.edu...02_release.htm

There are many good chiropractors...unfortunately you are limited in what you can do,under your scope of practice if you are doing evidence based medicine....

with that said and done,are you going to join the family business or become an MD? If so why?

__________________
Moderator - State Licensing Forum

Still skeptical after all these years.
This is it. There are no hidden meanings.WYSIWYG

http://www.internetmedicalschool.homestead.com

http://www.chiropractormds.homestead.com/index.html

I am a DC. I thought of going to medical school. But, there is not any advantage from MY standpoint. My family is already well known and respected in the state. The medical doctors in my sisters medical school interviews knew who she was by her last name, and they were in a different state (good? or bad?). I guess a few of the main reason are that I wouldn't have to get me hands dirty, it is very laid-back, and not many patients would die under my care (because of the conditons I would treat). LBP is a major issue in the USA. It means alot when a person is having a rough time in their life because of heaaches, or a person cannot work because of LBP. I want to be focused on quality of life and prevention. I know that people "keep coming back all the time" to chiros. It seems strange if it is taken in the wrong context. I will always see the same dentist and eye doctor as long as they live and as long as I have a disorder that needs to be prevented or on a regular check-up. With the spine, and adjustment is not like moving blocks of wood around. I would not be telling the truth to a patient if I said I "popped that back into place". It is certain that you would see little to no change on a post-adjustment radiograph. It is actually a process of rehabiltation where the ligaments are stressed through manipulation and stretching of ligaments, or stablizing them and strengthening muscle groups. I will see a patient on a very agressive treatment plan for a couple months. I will admit that a patient will usually feel relief after a treatment, but it takes work to make a true structural change....through maniplulation, physical theraphy, and lifestyle modifications. If you don't follow through on a treatment plan with a patient, they WILL come back in 3-6 months with the same symptoms and they WILL be a rollercoaster patient forever. If you do have any questions as to why or what with chiropractic, I will give you an honest (and scientific) opinion. I saw your site you are making.

well, i worked with a chiro when i was just out of high school, and my old landlord was a chiro. i also played hockey with one, and he was a decent friend of mine. that being said, as a physician i would RARELY IF EVER refer a patient to a chiro. my evidence is purely anecdotal, but each of these folks that i knew on a freindly basis had many of the same characteristics that i will forever associate with chiropractic.
1. they did not practice evidence based medicene. they simply wanted every person that came in the door to come back several times a week as long as possible.
2. the primary goal of the practice was to recruit patients, regardless of need.
3. they consistently badmouthed established and proven beneficial medical practices (vaccinations, antibiotics, surgeries, etc...) while offering no reasonable alternative.
4. they accused MD's of simply prescribing drugs to make money (ridiculous, as the pharmacist makes the money off an Rx) while pushing hard unproven dietary supplements and naturopathic compounds (which they sold and DID profit off) that were not adequately studied nor neccesarily indicated for what the patients complaints were. i personally saw things that we were overstocked in being pushed on every patient seen in a day...

anyhow, i am sure there are good DC's out there. whether i consider them "doctors" is questionable, as they don't seem to meet the training requirements (limited post-grad work, BA not required, etc...). in some cases, i may consider them as part of the health care team, but i feel that licensed PT's can offer many of the same services, based on science that i trust. so, i just don't see them as a big part of my health care team.

i would like to see chiropractic grow, become more evidence based and shed the tainted image that they currently have in the field of medicine. however, there are quite a few crackpots out there that thrive on being on the fringe of established medicine, and this is actually what brings patients to them. it seems to me that the profession has damaged itself, and that it will be a long time coming before they can rid themselves of the monkey that they placed on their own back.

"1. they did not practice evidence based medicene"

-You need to do some more research on that...the government even has studies on its effectiveness"

"the primary goal of the practice was to recruit patients, regardless of need"

-Every doctor wants to help as many people as possible. What? You don't? When I hear an MD say this over and over, it sounds like they are scared of loosing their own patients. Just like when dentistry and podiatry specialized. I can see a bias when medical doctors and hosptials say this. LBP gets them paid for an office visit, an MRI, other special testing, and expensive physical therapy work.

"they consistently badmouthed established and proven beneficial medical practices"

-Isn't that what you are doing to chiropractic right now?

" limited post-grad work, BA not required"

-Anyone can do Post-grad work. Who cares. BTW...Just as many states require a DC to have an undergraduate degree than they do for MDs. Not all states require a degree to practice medicine. That is a misconception.

"i feel that licensed PT's can offer many of the same services"

-In my state, PTs are not licenced healthcare practitioners. They have no referral power. They cannot see a patient without a refferral from and MD or DC. They cannot draw blood, diagnose, read x-rays, take-xrays. Basically, all they can do is stretch a patient or have them exercise. They have no exlusive legal rights.

"whether i consider them "doctors" is questionable"

-Whether i consider you "personable" is questionale.

interesting....well, my rebuttal...

1. there have been studies done which show the benefits of chiropractic in cases of low back pain of musculoskeletal orgin. i am sure there are some other studies out there that show some other musculoskeletal benefits of chiro. however, i have yet to see chiro proven as helpful for allergies, prevention of systemic illness, asthma, etc...all of these claims were made by each of the chiros i work with.

2. i don't know too many MD's that are asking patients to come back three times a week for preventive care. sure, docs like to have patients. but, in all my experience in allopathic medicine, folks tend to come to the doctor when they have a clear need, and require treatment. i have never seen an MD in the mall recruiting patients.

3. i am not bad-mouthing established and proven medical practice, i am questioning the practices of the few chiros that i knew, and the observing that they did not follow established and proven medical practice, in fact bad mouthed it.

4. in my state PT's are licensed, and i would trust the education of a PT. they are able to evaluate and rehab patients that are refered to them by MD's, which is exactly what they are supposed to do. they offer excellent rehab programs for many patients suffering from musculoskeletal pain and disfunction, patients rehabing from surgery and orthopedic/sports injuries, they take care of burn patients and provide wound care, etc...i have worked in PT also, and have never seen them recomend unstudied supplements, have never seen them retain a healthy patient for financial purposes, etc. in short, i trust them, something that the chiros i have worked with have not earned from me.

5. i am aware that an undergrad degree is not required to practice medicine, but a minimum requirement of med school is 90 units, with some science requirements. as i understand it, you can attend some DC schools for 4 years without undergrad requirements and graduate to become a "doctor". in addition, to practice medicine you must participate in a accredited post-graduate training program of at least one year, which involves lots of supervised, direct patient care.

6. i don't mind at all if you do not find me personable. many people do, some don't, such is life. however, that has nothing to do with the discussion.