Violating TOS in the CMU forum

[teratos]

Originally Posted by DocRon

Teratos,

I agree with the majority of everything you say as you are one of the more experienced VMD members. My quick question is, you say that you generally tell students to stay away from new schools until they have a proven themselves, however, how does a school prove themselves without new students? At the start of SGU and Ross, to the start of SJSM and AUA, students were discouraged from attending them because yes, they are riskier than attending US school. When I first started at SJSM I was told by many not to go there because it is a new school, unproven, doesnt have many student, no graduates, and no licensed Physicians. 3.5 years later it has more students, more graduates in residency and licensed Physicians.
Basically, Grace and St. Chris are examples of when Carib schools go wrong. However there are quite a few schools within the last 8 years that show when Carib schools go right. In either case there had to be students who took that chance and felt that their needs could/ would be met at the school they chose. So although CMU is new (with many kinks to straighten out, esp. ECFMG/IMED/WHO etc.), the trailblazers may set the pace for how well this school does in the future. Can't really encourage or discourage prospective students at this point because it is just too early to say much of anything right now... Only time will tell... Do you agree with me?

Sorry for intruding... this forum has gotten a lot of attention and caught mine as well. I also needed to build up my posts (at this rate i will never reach my ultimate goal....to surpass Teratos's post count)...I am gone again... Bye

Ron

P.S. Good Luck to everyone in the Caribbean School System...

I think it is wise to let other people be the guinea pigs. Let's say CMU turns out to be the best school in the region. What have you gained by going to CMU vs. SGU? Nothing.

What have you lost? There are several states you will never be able to practice in. They don't have CA approval, so that leaves out the states that go by the CA list. I think there are a couple of states which don't allow you to practice if your school hasn't been around for X years, as well.

What if the school goes belly up? You are hosed.

People may say that all great discoveries were made by people willing to take a chance. I would say that is true. I would also say that you cannot call getting an M.D. a "great discovery". It is kind of routine.

If you are going to the corner store, would you take an experimental rocket that nobody flew in, or would you hop in your trusty car and drive? I would take the safer, tried and true route. Even if the rocket gets you there, you still end up at the corner store, with a lot less risk.

I think discouraging people from this particular school until other people have taken the risk and proven it to be a viable option is the wise thing to do. Doesn't that make sense?

[AUCMD2006]

doc ron,

you also forget that there are far more examples of schools going belly up than there are success stories...on top of grace and st chris you can add kigezi, medical college of london, st luke, oceania, there were 1 or two more in american samoa, there is that one in mexico using a charter from off shore. and i wonder how many more have taken money and closed. someone on the asia forum said there are quite a few of these that start and close in china that cater to students from india and the US

the ones who have had success so far have been SMU and AUA, st james is catching up. then the jury is still way out on xavier and its many incarnati0ons, st theresa and martinus seem to be stagnant or heding down, american global, now that whole stewart fiasco in california and cmu

when all is said and done get into the best most established school you can. if at the end of the day you are willing to risk a new school then go for it knowing the risks and limitations. your gamble paid off, why don't you ask the students at grace, kigezi, st luke etc if the gamble was worth it?

it really does feel like the matrix on this website...it has happened before, it will happen again. any time a new school opens it is like dejavu

[stephew]

i think that doc ron is asking a philosophical question rather than one that's pragmatci to any given student. teratos, who i agree with, is answering from the standpoint of a student making a decsion. you go with what is known to work. he outlines the "why" extremely well. dont worry about who will give cmu a chance; its not up to the prospective students to take care of any new school to assure that it gets the chance to succeed. its up to the school to assure a student that they should spend an enormous amount of time and money on them so they will be able to practice good medicine.

[DocRon]

Agreed Stephew. But it IS a symbiotic relationship with school and students, no? A school can not be successful no matter how hard they try or how much they invest if they do not attract new students and new students can not be successful if the the school does not provide for the students the knowledge, resources and means needed to succeed.
Remember if it were not for "Guinea pigs" there may not be a Dr. Stephew or Dr. Teratos (or Dr. Ron) today. SGU, AUC, Ross, SJSM all started with such "guinea pigs" and for them I think we should be thankful, because they paved the way for you and me.
Talking about the rocket to the corner store vs the car, I agree with the safer choice. But with advances in everything including medicine, there needs to be people that are willing to be the first. That is how all these clinical trials are conducted and is how all these great meds that we prescribe everyday get approved. Again, there are a few that turn out to cause more harm than good (similiar to some schools doing more harm than good) but with time is when these things are discovered.
You and several others would not wanna be the first to start anything new, and that is fine, your choice and is the is the safest way to go. But some others might be willing to (for whatever personal reasons), and that does not necessarily mean that they are making a mistake. Only time will tell how well their decision works out for them.

Ron

P.S. This is just an open discussion....

[stateofequilibrium]

Originally Posted by DocRon

Agreed Stephew. But it IS a symbiotic relationship with school and students, no? A school can not be successful no matter how hard they try or how much they invest if they do not attract new students and new students can not be successful if the the school does not provide for the students the knowledge, resources and means needed to succeed.
Remember if it were not for "Guinea pigs" there may not be a Dr. Stephew or Dr. Teratos (or Dr. Ron) today. SGU, AUC, Ross, SJSM all started with such "guinea pigs" and for them I think we should be thankful, because they paved the way for you and me.
Talking about the rocket to the corner store vs the car, I agree with the safer choice. But with advances in everything including medicine, there needs to be people that are willing to be the first. That is how all these clinical trials are conducted and is how all these great meds that we prescribe everyday get approved. Again, there are a few that turn out to cause more harm than good (similiar to some schools doing more harm than good) but with time is when these things are discovered.
You and several others would not wanna be the first to start anything new, and that is fine, your choice and is the is the safest way to go. But some others might be willing to (for whatever personal reasons), and that does not necessarily mean that they are making a mistake. Only time will tell how well their decision works out for them.

Ron

P.S. This is just an open discussion....

And I wish those that do all the success they can get. But it still doesn't change the fact that if you have ANY other option, DON'T be a pioneer when it comes to your medical education. The risks are too great and stacked against you in terms of time, money, and any type of career in medicine.

Even should you and your school succeed down the line, you will STILL be restricted in where you can practice.

So on the philosophical level, yes, there has to always been pioneers to make something work. But pioneers live rough and hard lives and a lot don't make it through.

[DocRon]

Point taken SOE and I agree 100% that medical education is something you dont wanna risk given the time, money etc. But pretty much every student that has graduated from a school outside of the Big 4 or 5 that does not have Cali approval or been around more than 15 years have the same state restrictions, right? Also, if a student does not get into one of the Big 4 or 5 as there are still X amount of spots in these schools, what are they to do? Should they give up on their dream or find another option that is made available in a newer school that will suit their needs?

[jtu]

Hi
Friends!!
It is good to spark a healthy debate on--"New Caribbean Medical Schools--Why and Why not???
We need New upcoming Caribbean Medical School because--It is too expensive and too competitive in US medical School to get admission.
So,definitely Caribbean Medical School is a suitable destination for many aspiring medical students to fit into lower tuition fees and lower competition there.
However, most of the established caribbean medical schools' owners do not want to allow new schools to come up there.It is quite natural.They do not want competition.But competetion will definitely encourage better performance to improve facilities and thus quality of the product --here higher USMLE passing rate.
It is true that Government approval,WHO enlisting,ECFMG enlisting etc are essential and new schools will take sometime to get it done.But those schools need to arrange proper facilities for the aspiring students.It is not possible the get approval before starting the school.
But most of the posters and moderators in the ValueMD are interested to ignore the facisilities available in a new school and not ready to give them some time to get their papers approved.They are showing ignorance about the history of all other schools.It is unfair to create panic and uncertainity in the mind of students and fortell future of any new school.
The class rooms of the established schools are too crowded and tuition fees are much higher.So, some students are ready to take risk in new schools and not always because those students are not good students.
It is difficult to convince previllaged group of students --why economically compromised students want to take risks and study hard to compete in their life?
Because underprivilaged students are there to support--low budget new schools will survive all antagonism by the big schools.Regards.

[stephew]

1) you do NOT go offshore because its "too expensive" in the us. You only go if you fail to get into the us. and you try for a well established school that is most likely going to let you pratice in state of your choice in the residency of your choice.

2)you dont choose a school for lower competition. you apply to the best one you can and go to the best one that takes you. some poeple may not have a choice but to go to some schools. in those cases you need to do some soul seaching to see if youre really likely to pass medschool and the qualifying boards.

3)most posters and moderators want honest answers from the school and students, not cheerleading and to address any shortcomings, particularly ones that prospectives may not be savvy enough to be aware of themselves. people can be easily mislead if they dont know what the relevant issues are.

4) the histories of "other" well established schools are not in question here. Further, since other schools are well established, prospectives have choices now. they dont necessarily need to be the guinea pigs for unestablished places. its not 1976 anymore.

5)the classrooms of established schools are not too crowded. the money issue is addressed above. simply put, if you cant practice what and where you want from your school, "cheaper" is a short term consolation.

6) weaker students taking a risk: ok fair enough you've hit upon the honest issue; some may not have a choice. I would only say to them that if you are having that much trouble getting into an offshore school, do yourself a favor and see if what has held you back is remedial or not. Because med school is a lot of time and a lot of money and you dont want to be in debt in both just to find out you cant pass your boards and practice medicine.

These points have been made before. many have chosen to ignore them or create a straw man to support the home team. if you cared about prospective students you'd answer these points honestly. CMU may be a valid route for some. but if youre going to create a pep rally for your school you should be prepared for people to challenge propaganda.

[MYMD]

Originally Posted by stephew

1) you do NOT go offshore because its "too expensive" in the us. You only go if you fail to get into the us. and you try for a well established school that is most likely going to let you pratice in state of your choice in the residency of your choice.

2)you dont choose a school for lower competition. you apply to the best one you can and go to the best one that takes you. some poeple may not have a choice but to go to some schools. in those cases you need to do some soul seaching to see if youre really likely to pass medschool and the qualifying boards.

3)most posters and moderators want honest answers from the school and students, not cheerleading and to address any shortcomings, particularly ones that prospectives may not be savvy enough to be aware of themselves. people can be easily mislead if they dont know what the relevant issues are.

4) the histories of "other" well established schools are not in question here. Further, since other schools are well established, prospectives have choices now. they dont necessarily need to be the guinea pigs for unestablished places. its not 1976 anymore.

5)the classrooms of established schools are not too crowded. the money issue is addressed above. simply put, if you cant practice what and where you want from your school, "cheaper" is a short term consolation.

6) weaker students taking a risk: ok fair enough you've hit upon the honest issue; some may not have a choice. I would only say to them that if you are having that much trouble getting into an offshore school, do yourself a favor and see if what has held you back is remedial or not. Because med school is a lot of time and a lot of money and you dont want to be in debt in both just to find out you cant pass your boards and practice medicine.

These points have been made before. many have chosen to ignore them or create a straw man to support the home team. if you cared about prospective students you'd answer these points honestly. CMU may be a valid route for some. but if youre going to create a pep rally for your school you should be prepared for people to challenge propaganda.

points well taken

I really think these schools can fill a need too, but honesty is always best.

[teratos]

Originally Posted by stephew

1) you do NOT go offshore because its "too expensive" in the us. You only go if you fail to get into the us. and you try for a well established school that is most likely going to let you pratice in state of your choice in the residency of your choice.

2)you dont choose a school for lower competition. you apply to the best one you can and go to the best one that takes you. some poeple may not have a choice but to go to some schools. in those cases you need to do some soul seaching to see if youre really likely to pass medschool and the qualifying boards.

3)most posters and moderators want honest answers from the school and students, not cheerleading and to address any shortcomings, particularly ones that prospectives may not be savvy enough to be aware of themselves. people can be easily mislead if they dont know what the relevant issues are.

4) the histories of "other" well established schools are not in question here. Further, since other schools are well established, prospectives have choices now. they dont necessarily need to be the guinea pigs for unestablished places. its not 1976 anymore.

5)the classrooms of established schools are not too crowded. the money issue is addressed above. simply put, if you cant practice what and where you want from your school, "cheaper" is a short term consolation.

6) weaker students taking a risk: ok fair enough you've hit upon the honest issue; some may not have a choice. I would only say to them that if you are having that much trouble getting into an offshore school, do yourself a favor and see if what has held you back is remedial or not. Because med school is a lot of time and a lot of money and you dont want to be in debt in both just to find out you cant pass your boards and practice medicine.

These points have been made before. many have chosen to ignore them or create a straw man to support the home team. if you cared about prospective students you'd answer these points honestly. CMU may be a valid route for some. but if youre going to create a pep rally for your school you should be prepared for people to challenge propaganda.

I would say that about sums it up. G