Australia does not seem to be a very attractive place to study medicine.

a) they charge you a pooh pooh load of money as an international student, just as much, or even more than some American/Caribbean schoools.

b) extremely difficult to get a PR, so you cant even practice in australia right after you graduate

c) hard to get loans

d) harder to go back to the US (especially if your a Canadian)

e) PBL not that respected around the world

I dont get why people just dont go to Caribbean schools or apply to DO schools if their ultimate goal is the US or Canada. And if you do plan to stay and practice in Australia, like i said, it's really difficult, especially considering the fact that most IMGs attend the 4 year programs rather than the 5 or 6 year programs, which are not as well respected. In terms of money, Australian GPs average around 70-90K, whereas in the US one can make a lot more money and get taxed less. I know medicine isnt about the money, but how the hell are u suppose to pay your loans.

Yeah, and for those that want to practice in a rural area in Australia for 5 years and then getting your PR, yeah.....you wont be making more than $45,000(australian) a year.

Conclusions: Australia charges ppl international fees for a meager education, i think you could get more bang for your buck going to India, Pakistan, Phillipines, etc, any asian country with a well respected MBBS program, since your considered an IMG whereever you come from (by the way, most IMG doctors in the US are from India). Australians make it hard for you to practice in their country despite the fact that you have an Australian education. So yeah, if you wanna go to US or Canada, then the best choices are clearly:

1. US or Canadian Med Schools
2. US DO schools
3. Caribbean or Israel
4. India, pakistan, england, ect (countries with well respected MBBS programs)
5. Australia or Eastern Europe (last choice)

Im from New York, but ill be applying to Indian and Pakistani schools since I cant afford the caribbean (and im latin by the way, so dont think im biased towards these places).

Nice how ppl come to the forums, post just once, and think they're actually sounding authoritative.

Your post is riddled with misconceptions and flat-out errors. More in depth answers can be found by looking at entire threads dedicated to each of these topics, both here and at SDN.

Taking a 4-year running average, the tuition comes to about 24-26k per year in today's dollars (it was less 2+ years ago, a bit more this year, but economists are predicting a 10% drop in the AUD within the year) . Not cheap, but far less than US private schools or the worthwhile Carib schools. The cost of living is cheaper (outside of Sydney) than most the US, UK, Ireland or the Caribbean.

1) This depends on what you mean, as you're being overly simplistic -- docs get 60 points + another 10 for being in a needed profession, the most you can get under their points scheme. Getting PR isn't that difficult if you can get an internship year, assuming you want to stay. At UQ, students who have wanted to stay, have, by getting internship, usually in rural areas. But yes, if you think of Sydney as Australia, then you won't get PR via internship sponsorship.

2) if you were a first year resident in the US (or Canada), would you consider yourself to be "practicing"? If so, then you can certainly practice in Australia after graduating. If not, you're argument is non-unique.

3) once graduated as an int'l student, there is a 10-year moratorium which prevents you from getting medicare payments for 10 years. However, there are exemptions (i.e., rural areas and others not so rural with shortages). No medicare is problematic, but doesn't prevent practicing.

are you canadian? it's easy to get stafford loans as an american. canadians get private loans to cover their tuition, but i don't know about canadian govt loans. Ask markdc at SDN, he's up on this topic, i know he had to look around, but he knows of loans that cover all his costs.

harder than what? not harder than carib or ireland or uk or israel. you mean harder than if you go to a US school? well duh. even so, as with all imgs, it's not much of a hurdle if you're not going for one of the more competitive specialties.

if you're canadian, it is hard to go to canada, but that's also non-unique -- canada treats all canadian imgs with contempt

huh? first, define your term -- most schools now have some degree of "pbl". second, those who don't like change don't like the world-wide move towards more pbl. others do like pbl and like their docs (search for studies on the topic). you're chucking corn here, bud.

you "dont get why" b.c. you haven't listened much to the different reasons given on the forums, and they're the same as for those who choose irish, uk and israeli schools. keep something in mind: all these schools have N. Americans there by *choice*. I don't know of any at Carib schools by choice. Not that carib bad, but hmmm, something to think about.

your perception of the perception of the grad programmes here is truly warped. Even if it weren't, how would such a perception make it harder to stay? some prejudicial policy that you're making up?

to payoff loans, or to invest for int'l use, yes, would take longer. but cost of living is far cheaper, so income spent otherwise is worth more. Or if you're into the $, go to the Gold Coast as a GP and work for MoleScan for $300k+ removing skin malignancies.

indeed, money is not much of an issue for many who go into medicine. take this into consideration when trying to imagine why someone might choose to stay here (or in ireland, uk, or israel, or pretty much anywhere outside of the good ol' US of A). wow, such myopia.

um, you'd get PR while still an intern, at the latest. and your dollar figure is way off. try 45k while also still an intern.

utterly stupid, and meaningless, ranking.

thank god you won't be coming here.

-pitman

Firstly, I was just trying to point out the fact that Australia may not be the best choice if one wants to come back to the US or Canada. Australian doctors will know far less basic science than their US or Canadian couterparts as many people have noted in previous posts. Moreover, if one wants to practice in Australia afterwards, it would be in one's best interest to enrol in a 5 or 6 year program since those are more respected....45,000 to 50,000 Australian dollars a year(room, food, tuition) over a span of 5 to 6 years ends up costing more than 4 year average you mentioned.

And yes, you have to consider the possibility of graduating and getting deported...the only option you'll have then is the US. Will you be as well trained as your North American counterparts? I doubt it.

And as far as you saying my system of ranking was stupid, if one's goal is only to return to US or Canada then why not go to another Asian country and get an MBBS, the same damn degree your gonna get in Aussie land, but you'll pay a lot less. These Asian schools prepare you better for practicing in North America, they focus on basic sciences and lectures and your given just as much, if not more, responsibility and exposure to a vast array of problems during ur residency than in Australia. 1 in 20 doctors in the US are Indian, that number increases when you go to rural areas. How many Australian doctors are practicing in the US? Canada? UK?

Oh yeah, and by the way, I just may end up going to an Aussie school, since their easier to get into, yeah...Indian and Paki schools have stricter admissions than Australia. Peace.

the key word here is "may", and of course depends on many factors, weighed subjectively. one of my objections -- aside from a lot of misinformation you're spewing -- is your belief that these factors and weights boil down to your conclusion. no, they don't. not even with your minimal (and general, and vague) conditionals.

Yes, less basic science is taught. More non-science is taught. doh!

To pass usmle I, one might need to study over xmas after year 2 (which is what n. americans do here). If i were to weigh this against the 2 years of cramming lists of facts in some of the other schools you've mentioned, i'd rather do the xmas cram. maybe it's the difference in student quality.

again, your perceptions of the perceptions are off. some respect undergrad more, some respect grad more. many docs who came out of undergrad like undergrad more, many docs who assess docs like grads more. read some Australian studies on the matter -- it's like the "religion" b/w macs and PCs, really boiling down to a really stupid argument. same with the arguments of "pbl better/worse".

huh? so it costs a lot only b.c. the only option is (5 to 6-yr) undergrad, since grad is not respected? again, if you'd stop with the prejudices and presumptuousness, you might see how ridiculous this logic is.

what you personally doubt fortunately has no bearing. but yes, if you want a safe life, with no will to make a small effort in order to do all that you want to do in it, then don't come here. the N. Americans here aren't myopic proselytizers and aren't afraid of having to put the effort in to be here, for the many reasons that they're here, for what they (obviously) see as the relative benefits.

dr. bum, you're sounding in these posts like the worst (and most insulated) of the carib posters who claim that the only reason to go overseas for med is b.c. one couldn't hack it in the US. Likewise, it's just as simplistic and silly to say, "if you want to come back...australia is here at the bottom of this list i have for you b.c. this is what matters". utterly silly.

ahh, as though we had but one goal in life, one way to reach it, as though we EVER had just one choice to make...that the one with the lowest activation energy, the gilded glide, the straight, steep slide, to the ultimate goal which is all that must matter! heavens no, no buttery twisty path, no surging tide, put a brake on life, no for we must look only to the immortal, the god, the infinite...the End, and we must deny the road our flesh must ride! read some, kid.

But of course the carib schools (w/ stigma and costing much more) have an absolute advantage, b.c...?????? Or UK or Ireland (also costing more, also recently grad and with the same silly in-fighting w/ traditional undergrad), are somehow a step above, despite not gearing for USMLE, b.c. of advantage of (less) pbl which is less good b.c....you say pbl "bad"....????

Don't try to fill those in, point is you're being awfully silly, weighing CBA through your own filter.

yeah, i see -- the best place is where they teach the most science. this is a point you're making? means harvard sucks, for one. but if you really want to make such generalizations...Indians go to the US to better their quality of life, even if it means going to rural areas that other docs won't go, australians don't care to as they have the standard they like. India has a billion ppl, australia 20 million. still think you're making an argument here??

And you're arguing that indian docs have better post-grad training than australian docs, b.c....?????

you're a funny man. apparently rather young and deluded, but funny. if you were to get over the need to tell everyone how to rank things in life, you just might get into a med school.

-pitman

It is not incredibly difficult for International students to stay in Australia after graduation. They don't necessarily deport people after graduation, your profession HAS TO be on the skilled migrant list to get a PR through work skills. If not, than you have to try other means.

As far as comparing Australian medical schools and doctors to those in India, you must be smoking something really potent. Australia's physicians are far superior. Another thing, India is a third world country with a per capita GDP of about $2000US, Australia has a per capita GDP of about $30,000US in terms of PPP. There is a much higher standard of living in Australia than in India. If you ever took mathematics, this means the average economic output of Australia is 15 TIMES that of India.

xx

doc, you make such an effort to bash all schools in the country you've chosen that you don't seem to realize you're making no sense. just preface your posts with, "Hi, I'm at USyd, I hate it here. Let me convince you to hate ALL aussie schools too so I can feel like i'm in good company and not whingeing for nothing". Or, take your drivel elsewhere.

other ppl actually know a few things about the schools and who goes to them.

-pitman

Doc_with_no_country,

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the reason you have no country is because your attitude sucks. What must a PD think when a canidate comes for an interview and just sits there complaining about the med school they attended, blaming it for all of their own shortcomings? The PD is likely thinking there is no way I would want to work with an individual who takes so little responsibilty for their own actions. Grow up man and get on with your life.

Let's be honest. USyd, UMelb, UQ, Flinders any Aussie school for that matter does not teach to get students past the USMLE. Why would they? They are there to educate Australian students in a manner that, that country deems acceptable. The Carribbean schools are totally different. They are in existence to provide an alternative to US/Canadian schools for those who cannot or may choose not to attend school in North America/Europe/Australia. They stay in business by landing students residnecies and respectable USMLE scores. However it is important to note that not all residencies are created equal and matching is not the problem people make it out to be. It's matching into a program where you are happy and can move forward with your career that takes hard work.

Regardless where you go however you have to study on your own. Every US grad that has a good score studied intensively on their own. Medicine is medicine. Each school presents the material in a different way but in the end it is up to the student to take what they have been given and utilize it. If you need someone to hold your hand all the way through then get outta medicine right now cause you're going to be lost. I'll agree that PBL formats for learning with no science knowledge are tough and PBL is frustrating at the beginning, but I think it is the best way to teach students to become independent decision-makers. Rote memory can only take you so far.

And as far as doc_with_no_county's claim that USyd is obsessed with evidence based medicine he is right. But go to any school's grand rounds or literature review session or resident meeting and you will quickly see that decisions for treatment, procedures, instumentation use etc. are based on one thing....EVIDENCE. So I would be skeptical of a school that refuses to see that medicine is constantly changing and lacks the foresight to adapt it's program along with the medical environment. That's one thing USyd does very well.

........................

The Australian schools were never catered to US students wishing to return to the US like the major Caribbean schools which focus on the USMLE as well as offering rotations in US hospitals. I chose Australia for a number of reasons, its much cheaper than a big Caribbean school, even with the strong Aussie dollar, the living conditions are excellent for a foreign country, and with regards to licensing there are no major issues when coming back to the states. Since the Australian schools aren't filled with students scrambling to ace the USMLE its a less stressful atmosphere as well and there is low attrition in Australia.