Greenbook rotation question

[doc4u]

I am wondering if a rotation is considered accredited if it is a participating hospital under another sponsor even if the residents only rotate through the hospital for 1 month during their 2nd resident year and never again..for example i was just scheduled for FM at kingsbrook, though it is not a sponsoring hospital for FM it is a participating hospital under the SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn Program, but only for 1 month during PGY-2 year..is it considered accredited and would it be acceptable for NY licensure, the program is also scheduled for review in JULY 2012 so is it possible that the hospital could be dropped on the next site visit and lose its accreditation? i was also wondering what this FM umbrella deal is that school claims is going on at Jackson park and if its legitimate? thanks all

[Go-Green]

I am wondering if a rotation is considered accredited if it is a participating hospital under another sponsor even if the residents only rotate through the hospital for 1 month during their 2nd resident year and never again..for example i was just scheduled for FM at kingsbrook, though it is not a sponsoring hospital for FM it is a participating hospital under the SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn Program, but only for 1 month during PGY-2 year..is it considered accredited and would it be acceptable for NY licensure, the program is also scheduled for review in JULY 2012 so is it possible that the hospital could be dropped on the next site visit and lose its accreditation? i was also wondering what this FM umbrella deal is that school claims is going on at Jackson park and if its legitimate? thanks all

From my understanding, Kingsbrook is accredited. Never heard anyone say something was not greenbrook even though it was listed on the acgme website. Considering that, I would assume it was also acceptable for NY licensure. As for the review, I assume if it was dropped then they may lose accreditation, however it is more likely that the program/participating-site would be placed on probation (as long as its not on probation currently or there are no egregious violations). The FM umbrella is legitimate at least for California (not sure if the states that follow the Cali list also follow the FM umbrella rule) however there are some states where this is not acceptable. I know a few people from ross who are doing all or most of their rotations at Jackson Park; they said that while SOME states won't allow it for a permanent license, SOME will issue training licenses for residency. Once you finish residency however and are board certified, SOME of those states that wouldn't accept those rotations under the family umbrella, will now allow you a permanent license because you are boarded (Texas is the only state I know of that is like this, but there may be others). Hopefully someone can clarify further. Good luck with your rotations.

[doc4u]

hey thanks for the reply, i asked my coordinator and they said if its on the website its accredited i also asked the coordinator at the hospital im at now and they also said it shouldnt be a problem..i tried calling the nys med board or look on the website and i couldnt find anything about rotations..all states list is post-grad/residency training being acgme accredited for licensure so im kind of confused as to how rotations play a role in licensure..trying to get in touch with someone at the med board hopefully it can be cleared up.. this is something i found
FSMB | Licensure Examinations | USMLE Step 3 | Initial State-Specific Licensure Requirements

[iwanabmd]

Residency is greenbook, well duh obviously. if it was accredited it wouldnt be a residency. Now for Greenbook rotations.... my word is the truth, believe it or don't. Many states(not all) require your CORE rotations to be either Green (the hospital has an MD residency or is affiliated with a hospital that has a residency) or Blue (the hospital has a DO residency or is affiliated with hospital that has a DO residency). FEW states require your CORES to be all green. a FEW states don't require them to be anything. Finally, a VERY few require EVERY rotation to be green.

More explanations....

What do I mean by "the state requires it" - this means when you apply for your LICENSE (not residency) they will check (sometimes) your education credentials to make sure you didn't do your family med rotation at "Dr. Uncle Bob's" office. The states want to make sure you did your schooling a TEACHING facility.

What do i mean by "the hospital is affiliated" - If hospital A has residents from hospital B rotating through there, even if for 1 month, then it counts as green. For example, RUMC surgery is GREEN because MD residents from SUNY Downstate go there for a few months out of the year.

How do I know if a hospital is Green or Blue? - there is a website that requires some detailed searching. that website is ACGME Accredited Program and Institutional Listing - Public Access . you click on "Accredited programs" and search by specialty and state. Here is a sample you can try. Search for "Pediatrics" in "New York". Look for the New York Methodist program and click on it. Now scroll down and you will see "Participating Institutions" and in those fields you will see "Interfaith Medical Center" where the PGY-3 rotates there for 1 month. Because 1 PGY-3 from methodist goes to Interfaith for 1 month it makes it Green.

How do I know if my state requires Green, Blue, both, or none ? - this takes ALOT of googling but basically try and do all green or blue cores this way you can keep your options open. If you want to practice in Texas or one other midwest state I can't remember then they require green electives also. BUT green electives are EXTREMLY hard to find because they usually only exist at University hospitals. My advice - unless ur heart is set on texas don't worry about electives.

What is the family medicine umbrella? - THIS applies STRICTLY to california and alaska. They will allow you to consider your rotation as Green as long as the hospital has a green Family med residency. Any other state does NOT follow this. Trust me, this came straight from the mouths of the guys in charge at NY and NJ med boards. No matter what any AUA coordinator tells you, they are lying.

So what about residency? - residency does NOT follow the medical licensing rules and generally you can get into residency in any state with even a "Dr. Uncle Bob" family medicine core.


NY licesning Law - this is the ONLY state im specifically discussing because it has some tricky wording. DO NOT PM me for other state laws.

All core rotations done WITHIN the state of New york must be either green or blue. So if you did a core in Illinois does it have to be green or blue? technically no, but like I've said before, I would do it anyway.

Only 12 weeks of rotations can be done within the state of New York - this ONLY applies to schools not approved by NY board. AUA is approved so FORGET ANY laws that mention ANY rule about 12 weeks.


Not to toot my own horn, but this advice above is GOLDEN and every student should live by it. Do not buy into the crap anyone else who claims to know what they are talking about because they heard from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from the cart guy at wyckoff.

[auadude2222]

12 weeks of non affiliate electives or just 12 weeks of rotations for ny ?? im not sure what you mean only 12 weeks of rotations can be done within the state of ny....basically all of our rotations are in ny. elaborate please

[iwanabmd]

Way to be ignorant and not read what I wrote.

I will quote myself - "Only 12 weeks of rotations can be done within the state of New York - this ONLY applies to schools not approved by NY board. AUA is approved so FORGET ANY laws that mention ANY rule about 12 weeks"

If u go to a school that is NOT NY approved then you can only do a max of 12 weeks of any rotations in the state of NY

[auadude2222]

that was my polite way of asking......WHY WOULD THIS IDIOT POST SOMETHING SO IRRELEVANT TO AUA STUDENTS IN THE AUA FORUM.... unless he/she was talking about the rule regarding away electives.

[liverpool4life]

haha love it ^^ hard to read the whole thing given the non-cited, cocky, patronizing garbage.

[doc4u]

this was posted by CHIMONZE in Sree's :What is a greenbook rotation" thread : I did all my rotations at JPH and matched in anesthesiology at a university categorical program. I know some docs from other schools who did their rotations at jph and now practicing in Texas, Philadelphia, Michigan etc. Post graduate acgme studies mean residency....not clinical rotations. How can a state deny one a permanent license after residency and fellowship, just because of a psych rotation at jph? Please folks, call the medical boards for more info....I did the same!
seems like we have some opposing theories here so i guess safest thing is do all green but with the limited amount that AUA has and the long wait times it may just take 3 years to finish rotations so it doesnt seem really practical to do if licensure only depends on post-grad training..i was also speaking to residents at hospital im at now and they completed med school and all rotations in their foreign country and are doing residency in NY to gain licensure and im sure their rotations are not on the ACGME website..
iwanabmd how do you in touch and actually speak to someone at the medical board becaus i called the NY med board and it just sent me from prompt to prompt and kept saying goto website where there is 0 information on this subject

[iwanabmd]

to get in touch with NY med board I had to go through a lot of secretaries who took my info and passed it on, eventually I got a call back after being very persistent. It is IMPOSSIBLE to just call and get someone on the board right then and there. NJ med board was a similar process but they e-mailed me back.

More greenbook info --> The reason why people who did everything at JPH have licenses in those states is because med boards didnt always investigate education credentials. You use to be able to just check off boxes saying that your rotation was ACGME accredited and the med board took your word for it. However, if you go to the new "technology savy" medical license applications they now have 3rd party companies that are verifying all the info you submit. I have also been to residency interviews where they asked me to verify that my rotations were green or blue (New Jersey).

<quote>that was my polite way of asking......WHY WOULD THIS IDIOT POST SOMETHING SO IRRELEVANT TO AUA STUDENTS IN THE AUA FORUM.... unless he/she was talking about the rule regarding away electives. </quote>

I posted this rule so that when people read it on websites they don't wonder whether or not it applies to them, which is why I said "this rule exists, but does NOT apply to aua". I was trying to dumb it down, but I guess it still flew over your head.

you guys can do what you want. But I have heard, and yes I admit the stories are second hand, of 2 residents who were denied licenses in the state of their choosing because they had all JPH rotations.