Assumptions- READ THIS! [Archive] - ValueMD Medical Schools Forum

Ming

12-29-2005, 10:15 AM

Hi Steve,

This issue has been around without any absolute conclusions. That is due to the fact that this issue is not front and centre with any problems at the moment. Just imagine if you will, the media frenzy when the first on-line student finds themselves in litigation, and I do expect it to happen for many reasons.

If you contact EACH AND EVERY STATE, ask them the question at hand, you will discover they will NOT license any student who has done on-line basic sciences. As Carmen states, the transcript does not display this fact. This will soon change as there are many states (to whom I have spoken directly) that will be asking for this information. When that happens, it will affect every previous student whose degree will then be in question. This is not my opinion, this is the opinion of the 50 states that I contacted when I was interested in this medical school.

You may well move along in the system that is not watching for this very closely at the moment. I am sorry to hear you that you have spent your time in on-line medicine rather than have applied to a regular local medical school.

This school is continuing because of the large population of people who desperately wish to enter medical school, and who do not have the educational credentials to compete with regular admission criteria.

As Carmen states, the school is a sham. Many students are in too deep, past the point of no return and basically hoping it works out for them. It might work out for them until the medical establishment turns its eye to the issue in a serious manner.

Genossa maximillian

12-29-2005, 01:39 PM

prof

12-29-2005, 04:08 PM

This is such an interesting topic, as we as American educators are now dealing significantly with how to get the basic and clinical didactic material to the students via technology. The latest I heard last week was that we should now be considering "podcasting", so that our material can be seen by the students and residents anywhere they are on "ipods". With the increase in Allied Health students, especially the physical therapy doctors to be (yes they get doctorates now too), and the rapid increase in nursing students (big nursing shortage in country), lecture rooms are at an all time premium. Nobody wants to build new lecture rooms, because they all want to build new laboratory space for researchers, and specialized outpatient/daysurgery clinics. Tight budgets are not replacing the retiring basic science professors, unless the new hires are fully funded researchers (that don't want to teach). Thus technology will be hitting us much faster than many of us thought. And of course as the lectures are becoming webbased, now all the involved professors want intellectual rights to any use of them. Some American schools are working hard to put out excellent approved web based series so that they can market them to other schools. You can see how fast this is moving in CME training. The basic science professors see this as a way to be entrepreneurial and bring dollars into their departments, so they can have less teaching duties and get more NIH research grants which has become the golden goose for all US medical schools now. State budget constraints and the high expense of training medical students at state institutions without much tuition reimbursement will create many novel education models in the next few years. The impending doctor shortage will likely force some states to start new medical schools, increase class size, or bring back the 3 year MD.

anatomy_guy

12-29-2005, 04:28 PM

I truly understand your point and your bias against online basic sciences. I have previously stated here that done responsibly it is totally doable. In the case of IUHS it seens it is not been done responsibly, at prima facie.

As far as I know, there are no written rule or law that demands any school from explicitly stating in a school transcript that a program was completed onsite or online, ask any lawyer. Many reputable US academic programs have online components and the transcript does not reflect that either, of course not in medicine. As you point out, that might change in the future. I have spoken with several medical boards, and some of them have told me that they really look at their boards exams and do not pay much attention how they completed the basic sciences portion. We can discuss via PM which board said that, not here. Some have told me what they have told you, so we are , more or less on the same page.

Right now, when it is time for licensure, a medical board can simply ask a student for proof of residency at the site where he or she alleges completion of basic sciences, passport, visas, etc. No rocket sciences there.

Now, just to ask you the same question I asked Azskeptic and it was inetresting to notice how the question was dodged, and if you simply do not want to answer it, just say so, but try to be as honest as possible.

Hypothetically speaking, if a student presents to a board, passing USMLE Steps I, II, and III, excellent clinical sciences letters of recommendations, and excellent markings on his clinical studies, has completed a residency training in which he or she have been exposed to direct patient contact and completed their residency with excellent remarks, BUT the only sin the student committed was to complete his or her basic sciences online, will that make him a worse physician than one from a traditional basic sciences curriculum and ended up with the exact same academic performance?

How do you evaluate performance?

Just let me know.

As I said before, I am an advocate for technological change, technology and times change, so does medical education, it is not a sacred cow. However, I do understand it has to be done RESPONSIBLY.

Respectfully,

Maximillian Genossa

As a medical faculty member involved in using educational technology or the internet in education, I have to point out that there are some pitfalls and good uses of the internet in basic sciences for the first 2 years. Ron Harden at the Centre for Medical Education, University of Dundee in Scotland is trying to put together IVIMEDS, which is an internet version of medical education. He has already established a curriculum, which is not difficult given the standardization of medical education in the UK and elsewhere. Technically, the knowledge required can be acquired whether by lecture, problem based learning or group study or systems or regional based learning or independent self learning. However, in anatomy and pathology, one needs to see the human cadaver or the expanse of tumours and disease to gain an understanding of the extent of disease or the relationship of anatomical structures so one can build a 3D picture of the human body. It is really a matter of scale and relationships of anatomical structures before one truly understands anatomy. Pathology is not just what is found in Robbins et al but also the experiences and folklore you learn from academic and clinical pathologists. Seeing the pathological specimen very often helps you understand what the extent of disease can be and why it appears as it does in clinical presentation. I have taught medical, dental, nursing and occupational therapy students anatomy and physiology and the one aspect that they have remarked about upon seeing the anatomical specimens and some of the pathology is that they had a realistic scale and understanding about what the anatomical structures or pathology actually was and how they are related 3D. Also, lacking through the internet version of basic sciences medical education is how to do history, physical examination, diagnosis and prognosis or the various aspects of a medical interview. What philosophy of medicine is being taught? If it is patient centered, you need to see it in action and unfortunately, the internet does not and can not really convey this aspect very well. Having an independent study method where one links with a physician would be good but you actually need to link with many physicians so students can take the good aspects of these physicians and dispose of the bad habits they see in them. If you train with only one physician, you only see one way of doing the medical interview or HPE and thus you do not develop your own methods. Let me side track, I was a soccer referee who reached the national or professional levels for a few years. I learned my craft from working with many excellent, top notch or top level referees and assistant referees. I used some of the things, such as player management or awarding a penalty kick without being hassled or questioned, I saw from these referees because they worked for me but I had to discard some of the other techniques because they did not work for my personality or myself in general. The same is true in medical communications. You will be given a method for delivering bad news such as a cancer diagnosis or a diagnosis of terminal disease to patients, however, you will need to develop your own method that works with a variety of patients for yourself. If you are uncomfortable with handling this situation, patients will pick up on this and be uncomfortable as well and then the situation can totally breakdown with no resolution. This is not a good outcome for anyone. Some physicians in training develop a thick skin like "House" on TV and think this is good--personally I think "House's" manner stinks as he is a self absorbed a--hole and gives physicians a bad reputation. Others try having a caring attitude such as "****" on ER. But TV aside, you, the individual physician in training, need to develop your own style. The internet is not a place to do this nor is having a single mentor a good approach either. This is why stand alone institutional medical schools associated with a particular area are important because it is the variety and not the singleness of one's approach that adds to the educational experience. IUHS program really needs to be more in line with IVIMEDS and use many mentors and be properly monitored and administered. This takes time, effort and money, but in the long run can contribute greatly to the future of medical education if done right!!:)

Carmen

12-29-2005, 04:39 PM

I agree with all of you regarding some merits to distance education. Taking pathology on-line at Harvard is fine, but doing your entire pre-clinical education without labs, hospital experience, patient interaction, simulated patient exams, etc. is deficient.

Ming is correct in what all medical licensing facilities will tell you. If you call and say "I attend Harvard and took Pathology on-line", they will probably welcome you. But if you state "I attend IUHS and I stayed home and worked while I did my medical education at night without ever attending the island of St. Kitts or mentoring in a hospital", they will tell you to stay away.

The issue of IUHS is much bigger than simply on-line education. Students are sent to write the USMLE exams without ever meeting their professors, Registrar and other students. I think this is a little scary. A reputable medical school can incorporate on-line very well, but a school that has only 4 or 5 professors teaching, it is impossible to gain a proper education.

Carmen

Genossa maximillian

12-29-2005, 05:51 PM

"IUHS program really needs to be more in line with IVIMEDS and use many mentors and be properly monitored and administered. This takes time, effort and money, but in the long run can contribute greatly to the future of medical education if done right!!'

I couldn't agree more with you and that is why I emphasize the phrase ..DONE RESPONSIBLY.

Thanks for your valuable input.

As a medical faculty member involved in using educational technology or the internet in education, I have to point out that there are some pitfalls and good uses of the internet in basic sciences for the first 2 years. Ron Harden at the Centre for Medical Education, University of Dundee in Scotland is trying to put together IVIMEDS, which is an internet version of medical education. He has already established a curriculum, which is not difficult given the standardization of medical education in the UK and elsewhere. Technically, the knowledge required can be acquired whether by lecture, problem based learning or group study or systems or regional based learning or independent self learning. However, in anatomy and pathology, one needs to see the human cadaver or the expanse of tumours and disease to gain an understanding of the extent of disease or the relationship of anatomical structures so one can build a 3D picture of the human body. It is really a matter of scale and relationships of anatomical structures before one truly understands anatomy. Pathology is not just what is found in Robbins et al but also the experiences and folklore you learn from academic and clinical pathologists. Seeing the pathological specimen very often helps you understand what the extent of disease can be and why it appears as it does in clinical presentation. I have taught medical, dental, nursing and occupational therapy students anatomy and physiology and the one aspect that they have remarked about upon seeing the anatomical specimens and some of the pathology is that they had a realistic scale and understanding about what the anatomical structures or pathology actually was and how they are related 3D. Also, lacking through the internet version of basic sciences medical education is how to do history, physical examination, diagnosis and prognosis or the various aspects of a medical interview. What philosophy of medicine is being taught? If it is patient centered, you need to see it in action and unfortunately, the internet does not and can not really convey this aspect very well. Having an independent study method where one links with a physician would be good but you actually need to link with many physicians so students can take the good aspects of these physicians and dispose of the bad habits they see in them. If you train with only one physician, you only see one way of doing the medical interview or HPE and thus you do not develop your own methods. Let me side track, I was a soccer referee who reached the national or professional levels for a few years. I learned my craft from working with many excellent, top notch or top level referees and assistant referees. I used some of the things, such as player management or awarding a penalty kick without being hassled or questioned, I saw from these referees because they worked for me but I had to discard some of the other techniques because they did not work for my personality or myself in general. The same is true in medical communications. You will be given a method for delivering bad news such as a cancer diagnosis or a diagnosis of terminal disease to patients, however, you will need to develop your own method that works with a variety of patients for yourself. If you are uncomfortable with handling this situation, patients will pick up on this and be uncomfortable as well and then the situation can totally breakdown with no resolution. This is not a good outcome for anyone. Some physicians in training develop a thick skin like "House" on TV and think this is good--personally I think "House's" manner stinks as he is a self absorbed a--hole and gives physicians a bad reputation. Others try having a caring attitude such as "****" on ER. But TV aside, you, the individual physician in training, need to develop your own style. The internet is not a place to do this nor is having a single mentor a good approach either. This is why stand alone institutional medical schools associated with a particular area are important because it is the variety and not the singleness of one's approach that adds to the educational experience. IUHS program really needs to be more in line with IVIMEDS and use many mentors and be properly monitored and administered. This takes time, effort and money, but in the long run can contribute greatly to the future of medical education if done right!!:)

Genossa maximillian

12-29-2005, 05:57 PM

You hit the nail on the head..."State budget constraints and the high expense of training medical students at state institutions without much tuition reimbursement will create many novel education models in the next few years."

The discussion is moving the way I anticipated. Your input is valuable and I appreciate it.

Thanks

Max

This is such an interesting topic, as we as American educators are now dealing significantly with how to get the basic and clinical didactic material to the students via technology. The latest I heard last week was that we should now be considering "podcasting", so that our material can be seen by the students and residents anywhere they are on "ipods". With the increase in Allied Health students, especially the physical therapy doctors to be (yes they get doctorates now too), and the rapid increase in nursing students (big nursing shortage in country), lecture rooms are at an all time premium. Nobody wants to build new lecture rooms, because they all want to build new laboratory space for researchers, and specialized outpatient/daysurgery clinics. Tight budgets are not replacing the retiring basic science professors, unless the new hires are fully funded researchers (that don't want to teach). Thus technology will be hitting us much faster than many of us thought. And of course as the lectures are becoming webbased, now all the involved professors want intellectual rights to any use of them. Some American schools are working hard to put out excellent approved web based series so that they can market them to other schools. You can see how fast this is moving in CME training. The basic science professors see this as a way to be entrepreneurial and bring dollars into their departments, so they can have less teaching duties and get more NIH research grants which has become the golden goose for all US medical schools now. State budget constraints and the high expense of training medical students at state institutions without much tuition reimbursement will create many novel education models in the next few years. The impending doctor shortage will likely force some states to start new medical schools, increase class size, or bring back the 3 year MD.

Genossa maximillian

12-29-2005, 06:05 PM

I truly understand your concerns and I have to reaffirm that I am not defending IUHS practices, I am simply advocating for technological advances in the teaching of basic sciences for the 21st century and I see online basic sciences education as an excellent example on a curriculum that can be improved and delivered using cyberspace with certain limitations, like anatomy guy and prof point out. I have always emphasized and will emphasize done responsibly and I do not believe IUHS is doing it responsibly, I have said that before.

Now, my question remains unanswered about the case I presented, here it is again to stimulate the discussion further...if a student presents to a board, passing USMLE Steps I, II, and III, excellent clinical sciences letters of recommendations, and excellent markings on his clinical studies, has completed a residency training in which he or she have been exposed to direct patient contact and completed their residency with excellent remarks, BUT the only sin the student committed was to complete his or her basic sciences online, will that make him a worse physician than one from a traditional basic sciences curriculum and ended up with the exact same academic performance? How do we measure performance?

I agree with all of you regarding some merits to distance education. Taking pathology on-line at Harvard is fine, but doing your entire pre-clinical education without labs, hospital experience, patient interaction, simulated patient exams, etc. is deficient.

Ming is correct in what all medical licensing facilities will tell you. If you call and say "I attend Harvard and took Pathology on-line", they will probably welcome you. But if you state "I attend IUHS and I stayed home and worked while I did my medical education at night without ever attending the island of St. Kitts or mentoring in a hospital", they will tell you to stay away.

The issue of IUHS is much bigger than simply on-line education. Students are sent to write the USMLE exams without ever meeting their professors, Registrar and other students. I think this is a little scary. A reputable medical school can incorporate on-line very well, but a school that has only 4 or 5 professors teaching, it is impossible to gain a proper education.

Carmen

diogenes

12-29-2005, 09:39 PM

..........
Now, my question remains unanswered about the case I presented, here it is again to stimulate the discussion further...if a student presents to a board, passing USMLE Steps I, II, and III, excellent clinical sciences letters of recommendations, and excellent markings on his clinical studies, has completed a residency training in which he or she have been exposed to direct patient contact and completed their residency with excellent remarks, BUT the only sin the student committed was to complete his or her basic sciences online, will that make him a worse physician than one from a traditional basic sciences curriculum and ended up with the exact same academic performance? How do we measure performance? In answer to your question, I cannot see why your exemplary distance graduate should be penalized in any way.
There are critics who will say that a lack of exposure to certain elements of the traditional course will show eventually: the distance graduate will mess up sooner or later. For those who consider that distance learning in medicine is akin to licensing paedophilia or cannibalism there will never be a convincing retort to that assertion.
However, the opponents of distance learning need to ask themselves how it is that a licensing exam such as USMLE or PLAB is a satisfactory test of fitness-to-practise for one group of students and not for another.
If there are aspects of performance which are not tested in the licensing exams these should be included immediately. A review of licensing might also expose some deficiencies in the education of campus students!
I am also a fan of IVIMEDS and believe they have a workable vision of the future. I have never been able to understand what advantage performing a titration very badly confers on a future jobbing doctor. Much of the traditional basic sciences course is not a preparation for workaday medical practice but rather a harking back to a now distant era when we all did our own assays without benefit of specialist staff and equipment. For doctors who wish to engage in biomedical research or take their microscope to the most obscure corners of the globe there are opportunities to learn lab techniques outside of the core medical curriculum.
USUAL DISCLAIMER: none of the above should be construed in any way as an endorsment of the activities of that excuse for a medical school and educational (sic) establishment IUHS.

Genossa maximillian

12-29-2005, 10:13 PM

As for your assessment, ..." Much of the traditional basic sciences course is not a preparation for workaday medical practice but rather a harking back to a now distant era when we all did our own assays without benefit of specialist staff and equipment. " That is one of the things that needs to be changed in this era. You well point out that 'A review of licensing might also expose some deficiencies in the education of campus students!" as it happens on a day to day basis.

The disclaimer is excellent, I will use it.

In answer to your question, I cannot see why your exemplary distance graduate should be penalized in any way.
There are critics who will say that a lack of exposure to certain elements of the traditional course will show eventually: the distance graduate will mess up sooner or later. For those who consider that distance learning in medicine is akin to licensing paedophilia or cannibalism there will never be a convincing retort to that assertion.
However, the opponents of distance learning need to ask themselves how it is that a licensing exam such as USMLE or PLAB is a satisfactory test of fitness-to-practise for one group of students and not for another.
If there are aspects of performance which are not tested in the licensing exams these should be included immediately. A review of licensing might also expose some deficiencies in the education of campus students!
I am also a fan of IVIMEDS and believe they have a workable vision of the future. I have never been able to understand what advantage performing a titration very badly confers on a future jobbing doctor. Much of the traditional basic sciences course is not a preparation for workaday medical practice but rather a harking back to a now distant era when we all did our own assays without benefit of specialist staff and equipment. For doctors who wish to engage in biomedical research or take their microscope to the most obscure corners of the globe there are opportunities to learn lab techniques outside of the core medical curriculum.
USUAL DISCLAIMER: none of the above should be construed in any way as an endorsment of the activities of that excuse for a medical school and educational (sic) establishment IUHS.

neilc

12-29-2005, 10:19 PM

two points:

1) many state boards have inserted the wording "physical attendance" for IMG licensure applicants, when noting the requirements for basic science years. i have read it several times, and this will certainly be a stumbling block. this wording is not likely present in the section for US grads. remember, the licensing requirements ARE different in nearly every case for LCME grads vs IMGs. so, a harvard grad with online education will likely not have a problem, as the schooling is in accordance with LCME. but, non-lcme schools will have a totally different set of requirements.

2) as far as the excellent student described above...well, certainly and excellent student is an excellent student, and will likely make an excellent doctor. but, the problem is going to be a matter of defining "excellent", and a matter of the time and money needed to evaluate every single person individually. the state boards have little incentive to do this. if they feel that on-line international medical education is too risky to approve, they will disapprove all of them. it is simply easier to say "no", and there is little downside to this. they may lose a doctor or two that would be great, but they would also close the door on a lot of dodgy ones that may slip through. and, imagine the field day the press would have with something like this, at the first malpractice case. no medical board wants to face those kind of questions.

so, while technology may well be the future of medical education, it will likely be developed and implemented at the leading US universities well before it becomes accepted as a legitimate international alternative. as it stands now, i would be very surprised if an online degree was recognized in more than a few small, desperate states.

Ming

12-29-2005, 10:25 PM

dear genossa,

thanks for the intelligent response. If we approach the simple question of on-line education that is one issue. If we approach the question of IUHS's on-line education that is certainly another issue.

Is on-line medical education feasible? Maybe. At the moment, I am not entirely certain I would even accept the grading processes of many of the schools. Many of them make up their rules/regulations as they go along. Even the students have had questions about their own examination processes. This is not a small issue by the way. Do I think IUHS has a good educational process and would I trust their grading? No, to both of these.

You are correct about the transcript thing, however, from what the state boards are telling me, that will change. The medical establishment is old and traditional. Rightly so for many reasons. They move slowly and are resistent to change. Take a look at the litigation and then let's think about discussing this again. If traditional processes are running into the problems they are, imagine the difficulty of a "maverick" establishment trying to defend themselves when they run into problems. They WILL NOT have the backing of anyone.

Are there other people out there who might be able to pass the exams and make decent physicians? Logic and numbers dictate the answer has to be yes. That being said, if my health or the health of my children is going to be in someone's elses hands, I would certainly not choose anyone from the maverick establishment.

The other on-line regular medical schools are not actually on-line. Many of the regular medical schools have their lectures archived and students are allowed to occasionally attend these if certain lectures conflict with other schedules or they cannot attend for whatever reason. These on-line lectures by the way are apparently not available outside the campus. These lectures are attended on-campus university computers, at least that what Harvard told me about theirs. It is not the intention of regular medical schools to allow their students to attend basic sciences on-line.

Regular medical schools also try to select students who have been intensively interviewed in an effort to find more than just academic skills. This is not done in the off-shore schools and it appears from the selection process at IUHS, they certainly are only interested in the student meeting the monthly payment.

I don't think any of us on the forum will have the answer to bridging the gap between the old traditional medical establishment and the possibilities of new technology. However, when we become aware of some schools that have little intention of producing the best that can be, that are "for profit" and are only interested in their bottom line, that are functioning like IUHS, the question may be redundant, but what is our societal duty?

Genossa maximillian

12-29-2005, 10:31 PM

They must be desperate.

That aside, thanks for your contribution, it will be ideal if any IUHS administrator will take a look at this thread and learn something from it, well not just learn something from it but apply it as well.

Thanks Ming!

dear genossa,

thanks for the intelligent response. If we approach the simple question of on-line education that is one issue. If we approach the question of IUHS's on-line education that is certainly another issue.

Is on-line medical education feasible? Maybe. At the moment, I am not entirely certain I would even accept the grading processes of many of the schools. Many of them make up their rules/regulations as they go along. Even the students have had questions about their own examination processes. This is not a small issue by the way. Do I think IUHS has a good educational process and would I trust their grading? No, to both of these.

You are correct about the transcript thing, however, from what the state boards are telling me, that will change. The medical establishment is old and traditional. Rightly so for many reasons. They move slowly and are resistent to change. Take a look at the litigation and then let's think about discussing this again. If traditional processes are running into the problems they are, imagine the difficulty of a "maverick" establishment trying to defend themselves when they run into problems. They WILL NOT have the backing of anyone.

Are there other people out there who might be able to pass the exams and make decent physicians? Logic and numbers dictate the answer has to be yes. That being said, if my health or the health of my children is going to be in someone's elses hands, I would certainly not choose anyone from the maverick establishment.

The other on-line regular medical schools are not actually on-line. Many of the regular medical schools have their lectures archived and students are allowed to occasionally attend these if certain lectures conflict with other schedules or they cannot attend for whatever reason. These on-line lectures by the way are apparently not available outside the campus. These lectures are attended on-campus university computers, at least that what Harvard told me about theirs. It is not the intention of regular medical schools to allow their students to attend basic sciences on-line.

Regular medical schools also try to select students who have been intensively interviewed in an effort to find more than just academic skills. This is not done in the off-shore schools and it appears from the selection process at IUHS, they certainly are only interested in the student meeting the monthly payment.

I don't think any of us on the forum will have the answer to bridging the gap between the old traditional medical establishment and the possibilities of new technology. However, when we become aware of some schools that have little intention of producing the best that can be, that are "for profit" and are only interested in their bottom line, that are functioning like IUHS, the question may be redundant, but what is our societal duty?

Genossa maximillian

12-29-2005, 10:40 PM

...for your contribution. It seems that Australia took the lead in this aspect for sometime now, after they developed their problem based learning system, which by the way, they are more than happy to license of a fee, Univeristy of Sydney I beleive it is.

Remember, it is not an online degree this is a misleading concept, it is a degree with a basic sciences component done online, or at least part of it. I do not think that it is correct to address this as "online degree" because the clinical sciences component is done at hospitals and the normal board examination process as well as clinical evaluations is being done as well.

DISCLAIMER: none of the above should be construed in any way as an endorsment of the activities of IUHS.

two points:

1) many state boards have inserted the wording "physical attendance" for IMG licensure applicants, when noting the requirements for basic science years. i have read it several times, and this will certainly be a stumbling block. this wording is not likely present in the section for US grads. remember, the licensing requirements ARE different in nearly every case for LCME grads vs IMGs. so, a harvard grad with online education will likely not have a problem, as the schooling is in accordance with LCME. but, non-lcme schools will have a totally different set of requirements.

2) as far as the excellent student described above...well, certainly and excellent student is an excellent student, and will likely make an excellent doctor. but, the problem is going to be a matter of defining "excellent", and a matter of the time and money needed to evaluate every single person individually. the state boards have little incentive to do this. if they feel that on-line international medical education is too risky to approve, they will disapprove all of them. it is simply easier to say "no", and there is little downside to this. they may lose a doctor or two that would be great, but they would also close the door on a lot of dodgy ones that may slip through. and, imagine the field day the press would have with something like this, at the first malpractice case. no medical board wants to face those kind of questions.

so, while technology may well be the future of medical education, it will likely be developed and implemented at the leading US universities well before it becomes accepted as a legitimate international alternative. as it stands now, i would be very surprised if an online degree was recognized in more than a few small, desperate states.

neilc

12-29-2005, 11:34 PM

anatomy_guy

12-29-2005, 11:47 PM

i used the term "online degree" to specifically refer to basic science as the online portion. i am unaware of anybody trying to do clinical science online as well, though. but, if there is a better term, i am happy to use it.
Better terminology for online degree when a degree may not be truly online is the use of instructional technology or e-learning for portions that are on line. I have dealt with this aspect on numerous occasions. I was even involved in setting up e-learning for a new medical school. E-learning is not a bad educational tool if done appropriately and with student interaction at the maximum level! E-learning encourages maximum student interaction whether intended or not. Those that do not avail themselves of the e-learning opportunities will miss out tremendously and loose out on exams or other summative assessment. E-learning requires a certain number and level of participants to be successful. However I will use the disclaimer with regards to IUHS.;)

USUAL DISCLAIMER: None of the above should be construed in any way as an endorsment of the activities of IUHS.

Genossa maximillian

12-29-2005, 11:48 PM

i used the term "online degree" to specifically refer to basic science as the online portion. i am unaware of anybody trying to do clinical science online as well, though. but, if there is a better term, i am happy to use it.

I personally use online basic science component. Believe me, there are people out there who read "online degree" and think the entire thing is done online, far from the truth.

Thanks Neil

Genossa maximillian

12-29-2005, 11:51 PM

That is an excellent terminology. We all seem to agree on the disclaimer, we thank Diogenes for that one.

Better terminology for online degree when a degree may not be truly online is the use of instructional technology or e-learning for portions that are on line. I have dealt with this aspect on numerous occasions. I was even involved in setting up e-learning for a new medical school. E-learning is not a bad educational tool if done appropriately and with student interaction at the maximum level! E-learning encourages maximum student interaction whether intended or not. Those that do not avail themselves of the e-learning opportunities will miss out tremendously and loose out on exams or other summative assessment. E-learning requires a certain number and level of participants to be successful. However I will use the disclaimer with regards to IUHS.;)

USUAL DISCLAIMER: None of the above should be construed in any way as an endorsment of the activities of IUHS.

Ming

12-29-2005, 11:51 PM

genossa,

yes, it would be interesting to hear from one of the IUHS administrators. I know a couple of current students at IUHS very well and they are definitely those that are in too deep financially to turn back. They are just hoping for the best.

As these students say, the current admissions administrators are the accountant, who is not actually an accountant, and his wife, who was a real estate salesperson until her husband put her into this job without anyone to train her except him who knew nothing about medical schools.
These are the kinds of things that potentially bring a school down. If nothing else, it brings them down to their bottom line thinking.

Genossa maximillian

12-30-2005, 12:06 AM

I would like to have ANYONE of them discussing e-learning and how they are missusing it.

I am staying away from discussing any particulars concerning who does what at that school. It is obvious the school's educational program is being missmanaged. Anything else leads to personal attacks, etc and potential lawsuits left and right.

The case of IUHS is that of what could have been a potentially good idea on the hands of bad business people with a bad business model and it is the norm when medical schools are operated by flawed leaders and not Academics with a good understanding on medical education. You can run a for profit school and have excellent academics and excellent business people behind it.
Cheers,
Max
genossa,
yes, it would be interesting to hear from one of the IUHS administrators. I know a couple of current students at IUHS very well and they are definitely those that are in too deep financially to turn back. They are just hoping for the best.
As these students say, the current admissions administrators are the accountant, who is not actually an accountant, and his wife, who was a real estate salesperson until her husband put her into this job without anyone to train her except him who knew nothing about medical schools.
These are the kinds of things that potentially bring a school down. If nothing else, it brings them down to their bottom line thinking.

Ming

12-30-2005, 12:23 AM

Hi Max,

thanks for the reminder, but only anything that is said that is not a fact would open itself up to litigation. Credentials of those administrating a medical school is open for public viewing.

I am also guessing that if you tried to discuss the mismanagement of the curriculum, you would in fact be really pushing some of them into a corner.

They originally were using the Australian curriculum for which they paid a fee, but they appeared to have changed everything with each addition of new lecturers. this includes their own students who were/are lecturing.

You will grow old waiting to hear from anyone at that institution so the only thing you might receive is information from students, former students, former employees, former lecturers, etc, etc.

Cheers,
Ming

anatomy_guy

12-30-2005, 12:29 AM

I would like to have ANYONE of them discussing e-learning and how they are missusing it.

I am staying away from discussing any particulars concerning who does what at that school. It is obvious the school's educational program is being missmanaged. Anything else leads to personal attacks, etc and potential lawsuits left and right.

The case of IUHS is that of what could have been a potentially good idea on the hands of bad business people with a bad business model and it is the norm when medcial schools are operated by flawed leaders and not Academics with a good understanding on medical education. You can run a for profit school and have excellent academics and excellent business poeple behind it.

Cheers,
Max

How about buying out IUHS and reforming it into a viable IVIMEDS institution that it could be? There must be some well recognized medical education and medical academic leaders out there that can bring their reputations and influence to bear on such a venture. The University of Miami ran a 2 year MD program for Ph.D.'s a number of years ago before terminating the program yet these MDs are probably just as good as those that went through the traditional 4 year program. So, why not get reputable people to help. What do you think? Can we get true venture capitalists to fund such an above board venture?
Hey, I know I would do better! Do you think you guys can do better if we collaborate on such a venture?
Food for thought!!
A_G:p

Genossa maximillian

12-30-2005, 12:34 AM

The idea of discussions like this is pushing them into a corner. And remember, anyone can file a lawsuit in this country for any reason, and not until a judge delcares it without merit, you have to answer it and hire a lawyer and all that just to have a case dismissed, even if it's frivolous. Been there , done that. That is why I will rather stay away from those kind of attacks, it does nothing good for the discussion.

I do know they licensed the University of Sydney PBL model and discarded it. BIG MISTAKE. But at the same time, with what kind of professors they were going to run it? They don't have any worth the tuition. It would have been a disgrace for the licensor (University of Sydney).

Like I said, this place has no leadership and a very bad business plan.

Max

Hi Max,
thanks for the reminder, but only anything that is said that is not a fact would open itself up to litigation. Credentials of those administrating a medical school is open for public viewing.
I am also guessing that if you tried to discuss the mismanagement of the curriculum, you would in fact be really pushing some of them into a corner.
They originally were using the Australian curriculum for which they paid a fee, but they appeared to have changed everything with each addition of new lecturers. this includes their own students who were/are lecturing.
You will grow old waiting to hear from anyone at that institution so the only thing you might receive is information from students, former students, former employees, former lecturers, etc, etc.
Cheers,
Ming

neilc

12-30-2005, 12:34 AM

How about buying out IUHS and reforming it into a viable IVIMEDS institution that it could be? There must be some well recognized medical education and medical academic leaders out there that can bring their reputations and influence to bear on such a venture. The University of Miami ran a 2 year MD program for Ph.D.'s a number of years ago before terminating the program yet these MDs are probably just as good as those that went through the traditional 4 year program. So, why not get reputable people to help. What do you think? Can we get true venture capitalists to fund such an above board venture?
Hey, I know I would do better! Do you think you guys can do better if we collaborate on such a venture?
Food for thought!!
A_G:p

due to the reputation of IUHS, it would be a far, far better idea to start from scratch. i cannot imagine getting any value out of simply purchasing the name of IUHS.

the other issue, as i see it, is that licensing boards are very unlikely to accept new methods of medical education if it is introduced abroad. as good as it may be, it is still likely to be scoffed at if you do it first outside of the US.

Genossa maximillian

12-30-2005, 12:39 AM

an excellent idea.

and How about buying out IUHS and reforming it into a viable IVIMEDS institution that it could be? There must be some well recognized medical education and medical academic leaders out there that can bring their reputations and influence to bear on such a venture. The University of Miami ran a 2 year MD program for Ph.D.'s a number of years ago before terminating the program yet these MDs are probably just as good as those that went through the traditional 4 year program. So, why not get reputable people to help. What do you think? Can we get true venture capitalists to fund such an above board venture?
Hey, I know I would do better! Do you think you guys can do better if we collaborate on such a venture?
Food for thought!!
A_G:p

Genossa maximillian

12-30-2005, 12:41 AM

anatomy_guy

12-30-2005, 12:44 AM

due to the reputation of IUHS, it would be a far, far better idea to start from scratch. i cannot imagine getting any value out of simply purchasing the name of IUHS.

the other issue, as i see it, is that licensing boards are very unlikely to accept new methods of medical education if it is introduced abroad. as good as it may be, it is still likely to be scoffed at if you do it first outside of the US.

You do bring out a very worthy point. The name IUHS should be dropped from the lexicon of medical schools for our newly established institution. Maybe we should establish a medical school with IVIMEDS standards within a state or province that is in dire need of physicians and ask for LCME or CACMS accreditation. Once we receive accreditation, it would be very hard to reject a school that uses e-learning and other instructional technology to provide basic sciences medical edcuation and medical professional skills. We could try Nunavat, Northwest Territories or Yukon for our new medical school or how about Alaska or Montana and the call of the wild or the white earth?
Cheers, A_G:p

Scott1981

12-30-2005, 09:26 AM

i find it interesting that the OP disappeared after his reference to a successful grad turned out to be a transfer student.

iuhsms4

01-03-2006, 09:51 PM

I hope any future med students who read this will listen to facts and truths instead of erroneous, unfounded replies and comments. IUHS provides students who are serious with the opportunity to become physicians. They are WHO approved. They will sponsor you to sit for all of your boards. They arrange clinical rotations all over the US. You will have the opportunity to obtain a residency and seek licensure in many states. Do not listen to the lies spread on this forum! These are being posted by a few people who are upset w/ IUHS for whatever reason. You may leave me a message and I'll be happy to reply.

Steve
IUHS

neilc

01-03-2006, 10:17 PM

i would love to hear which states accept IUHS for licensure. i truly doubt that any student with distance learning has gone on to be licensed. if there has been one, please PM me with the info so i can verify it. if you can't show something verifiable, then the wise assumption is that the degree is worthless.

wizard17

01-03-2006, 10:32 PM

neilc

01-03-2006, 10:43 PM

fool! you are missing it!

sure lots of lectures get skipped, but labs dont get skipped. disection is not skipped. this is stuff you have to be there in person to learn and cant skip. this is the type of stuff you are missing with an online education.

this isn't even the point.

personally, i do think that a portion of medical education can be done online, in theory. i am not sure if it has been designed or developed yet, however. as of now, i know that online based curriculum can certainly enhance a medical education.

but, the quality of the education is not what is at issue here. at this point, it doesn't matter if iuhs is the best education out there. the problem is that the US licensing boards are saying that they will NOT license grads of online based programs. period. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

now, anybody can come on here and say my education is great, i passed my boards, or even i got a residency. that may well be the case. but, to claim that an internet grad got an unrestricted license in any state is pretty tough to believe. it certainly would require verification. and, if it did somehow happen, i would bet money that the grad wouldn't want the boards to be looking too carefully at the diploma....my guess is that it would certainly have slipped through the cracks, and that the board didn't realize the grad was from an internet based curriculum.

until somebody posts verifiable licensed grads, assume the degree is worthless.

Genossa maximillian

01-03-2006, 10:57 PM

"if a person, who did the 1st 2 years of his medical education online can work up 12 patients per NBME guidelines, pass Step 1, Step 2 CK, and Step 3- tell me why he shouldn't become a doctor in the US? "

I have been asking all along and I am yet to see anyone answering it objectivlely because it is the kind of question that should be addressed to medical licensing boards, not just the negative aspects but any positive aspects as well. Obviously this site is polluted with people who will just emphasize the negative aspect of anything, granted is their right, I do that once in a while. And please, folks do not give me the typical runaround that is what medical licensing boards are doing and are not going to change bla bla bla. I know that, hell, we all know that, what I want is to challenge this issue to a higher level of discussion like we did a few days ago. It is time to address this from a different perspective.

Disclaimer...The preceding does NOT constitute an endorsement of any kind to IUHS and their practices. That will be ridiculous...pardon me Steve.

No, Carmen. You and the rest of the people who are bashing IUHS need to get your facts straight. There are several students who did their pre-clinical education through IUHS PBL who are residents and one who is licensed in his state. I do not know what part of that you are not getting. IUHS has re-vamped their program. I agree that their administration could use some help (more people). However, I currently rotate w/ many students from other foreign medical schools, and each of their schools have their own problems also. Acquiring medical education requires autonomous learning. It is widely known that many US medical students don't attend lectures on a regular basis without direct consequence from the school. Foreign medical school students tend to skip class even more than the US students. Should states place sanctions and regulations on attendance policies at medical schools? NO!!!! If you can pass the boards that are written and standardized by the NBME, it shouldn't matter how you acquired the education (sitting at home cramming instead of attending class, attending classes online, etc etc etc..) Every medical student must take and pass USMLE Step 2 CS which requires 12 patient encounters and appropriate work-ups. These are evaluated by NBME experts. Now, if a person, who did the 1st 2 years of his medical education online can work up 12 patients per NBME guidelines, pass Step 1, Step 2 CK, and Step 3- tell me why he shouldn't become a doctor in the US? If you answer that question with a derogatory response, you have not taken and/or studied for all of the steps required for licensure. Times are changing folks! I'm sorry that a few ex-iuhs disgruntled people are trying to make a bad name for a school who is as good as any carribean med school out there.

I have to go back to studying. I hope any future med students who read this will listen to facts and truths instead of erroneous, unfounded replies and comments. IUHS provides students who are serious with the opportunity to become physicians. They are WHO approved. They will sponsor you to sit for all of your boards. They arrange clinical rotations all over the US. You will have the opportunity to obtain a residency and seek licensure in many states. Do not listen to the lies spread on this forum! These are being posted by a few people who are upset w/ IUHS for whatever reason. You may leave me a message and I'll be happy to reply.

Steve
IUHS

iuhsms4

01-03-2006, 11:27 PM

I will be happy to engage in a forum that discusses more productive topics like time management while attending a distance learning medical program like IUHS. Unfortunately, the only replies I expect to get in the near future will be negative ones. Please, don't waste your time! Everybody gets it! YOU DO NOT LIKE IUHS! YOU DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO GO THERE. AND, IF SOMEONE CHOOSES TO, THEY ARE DUMB. OK, we get it already! For the rest of you who want to engage in real, serious discussion, please reply to this, and let's set up our own forum to talk about real issues facing non-traditional, working medical students.

neilc

01-03-2006, 11:33 PM

1. you mentioned that there are states that will not license ANY carib grad. name one.

2. you are right, IUHS does not have to verify anything. however, a simple call to the state boards will clearly show that they DO NOT license distance education grads. for you to claim that a license has been issued is ridiculous. if you cannot verify it, fine. it means either you are lying, or the grad misrepresented his/her application and doesn't want anybody looking more closely.

3. again...THE PROBLEM IS NOT WITH WHAT YOU THINK OF THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION AT IUHS!!! the problem is that boards won't license you, regardless of how well prepared you think you may be.

iuhsms4

01-03-2006, 11:37 PM

neilc

01-03-2006, 11:40 PM

"if a person, who did the 1st 2 years of his medical education online can work up 12 patients per NBME guidelines, pass Step 1, Step 2 CK, and Step 3- tell me why he shouldn't become a doctor in the US? "

i think the problem here is that most would agree that these steps, by themselves, are pretty inadequate as a screening device, or as a measure of ability. the fact is, there are a lot of phd's out there that could likely self study for a while and pass. there are a lot of med studs out there that DO do that. i think by requiring attendance at a reputable, accredited med school that demonstrates some standards (which are evaluated by some outside, independent sources) minimizes the risk that somebody can "slip" through, and just pass the exam. the assumption being that by attending a reputable school, the passing of the USMLE is simply a verification of knowledge being aquired. it is not the sole requirement.

the fact that licensure is a multi-step process in the USA offers the patients some protection. i think that protection should actually be increased by requiring additional evaluation and oversight of international schools.

having a degree from a reputable school, coupled with the passing of the USMLE exams and completion of a ACGME residency is a pretty rigorous and thorough. elimination of even one of those steps (ie allowing anyone who wants to attempt the test to take it) cuts out 33% of the protection in place to the patients. that is too much to ask, IMHO

iuhsms4

01-04-2006, 12:14 AM

sheikh1

01-04-2006, 12:20 AM

M.D.'s of the cutting edge, without cutting, not in my backyard....!!

neilc

01-04-2006, 12:29 AM

i see you popping all these pre med stats...that is plain stupid. if you want to compare pre med stats with everyone, great. and, i do agree that there is a correlation to USMLE perfomance with MCAT. and, better undergrad students tend to do better in med school. fine. but, what on earth does that have to do with this discussion???

frankly, if you did that well in pre med, and still chose IUHS, i question your common sense.

you ask about which schools of the above i consider reputable? well, auc and ross to start. why? because they have been around a long time, have a proven track record of success, and have outside approval from more than one source indicating that they are strong academically. the others, IMHO, have a long way to go. some other strong carib schools are SGU and Saba.

as far as multiple attempts on the boards, and low passes? well, frankly, i would prefer a grad of a reputable school with a second pass 189 than any grad from IUHS. why? because i think the board exams are poor predictors. they are simply methods of assessing whether you have minimum knowledge to further your education. i am convinced that a student from a better school will have a better medical education than any student from IUHS.

again, the boards should look at school quality, board passage and residency completion for licensure. not premed. not board scores.

i can see you are passionate. that is great, you will need it. but, you do not need to convince me. in fact, you won't. and, i strongly doubt that you will convince any medical board either. so, you better hope they don't look too deep into your transcript, or you may be SOL.

neilc

01-04-2006, 12:33 AM

Ok. So, let's advocate to tighten up and make stricter requirements for licensure. I'm all about that. In fact, I'd go back, repeat my 4 years, if that happened. However, many of you who graduated from a foreign med school, or will graduate from a foreign med school, you need to take or retake your pre- meds and get A's, get a 30+ on your MCAT, then you can also redo 4 years of med school. Are you willing to do that? If not, then you are a hipprocrate!

actually, i already did graduate from a reputable school. no need for me to repeat anything. funny that you should admit that your school is not reputable here, and that you would do it if you didn't see this potential loophole or shortcut. the bad news is that you may very well have to do this.

(and i don't understand your fixation on pre med grades? even US grads don't ever show the pre-med grades to anyone after they get in....they are simply a screening tool, and are widely seen as inadequate, but easy to use. glad you did so well, but sorry man, live in the now. and the now is that you made a very poor choice in schools, and it will bite you in the butt later)

iuhsms4

01-04-2006, 12:53 AM

neilc

01-04-2006, 01:16 AM

I am certainly not trying to convince you of anything. However, I am exposing your hippocracy. IUHS hasn't been around as long as the schools you mentioned. Your whole argument stems on the fact that IUHS doesn't have licensed grads because "states won't license graduates from an online program". This is simply not true or verifiable because the only IUHS grads that have applied for licensure have gained licensure. The others are still completing residency because the school is relatively new.

it is simple to verify that a degree from IUHS is worthless in most states. call the boards, and say "if i graduate from medical school that offers its basic science curriculum online can i get a license in your state". let us know what they say. i fail to see any hippocracy in that. that is reality.

you keep saying that there are grads with licenses. show us ONE. otherwise, your statement has to be taken as false. why? simply call the boards. simple math. a professor should understand

You equate competency to the method of education. That is stupid! It has been my experience as a college professor of science, that it is unlikely that a student will change his/her study habits overnight. Many students in foreign med schools, like the ones you mentioned were so reputable, are the same students who barely pulled C's in organic chemistry. Believe it or not, this is why US medical schools filter these students from admission. They know that it is unlikely their study habits will change. This is why US med schools have 90%+ pass rates on the boards, and the schools you mentioned have less than 90% pass rates on 1st attempts. That is why pre-med coursework is relevant to this discussion. It has very little to do with predicative value for medical boards. However, pre-med coursework has a high predicative value for succuess in traditional medical education at a US med school and diligence in continuing education as a post-grad and physician. That is very relevant. And, any rhetoric on the contrary would be , as you so eloquently stated, "stupid".

i equate competency to a combination of the education(not the method, but the entire process), passage of boards and completion of residency . i use the standard of previous success coupled with a reliable outside assessment of quality (ie approvals from independent entities) as a method of determining which schools are likely to provide a solid education.

you keep coming back to boards...sure, i agree that pre med predicts board success. that is a small part of the equation i propose! you completly ignore the fact that education is important, and that outside approval is a good barometer. you keep coming back to pre meds and the boards...whee!

the fact is that carib schools have a very low pass rate. below 60% last i heard. what does that prove? lower standards equal lower pass rates. again, not too relevent. that is obvious.

i am NOT saying that getting a good education is impossible outside of the traditional routes. i am NOT saying that somebody who underperforms in undergrad is likely to do better in med school. they are not, but the may. i am not saying that my proposed method would eliminate only the underqualified. i am sure that there are many strong students at the lesser schools.

unfortunately, however, i think that it is impossible to give every single offshore graduate a thorough going over to determine fitness and ability. with that in mind, there need to be some simple guidelines in place to help keep out the riff raff. i don't think that simply passing the USMLE is an adequate barrier to protect the patients.

now do you get it????? it is not about one thing...it is about devising a combination of factors that help eliminate poor candidates. using one factor (ie USMLE) is inadequate. so, add in the school quality. add in an ACGME residency. with those in place you have a much better screening tool, and it costs very little in terms of time and money. simple.

and, any student that can succeed at the lesser schools should be able to succeed at the better schools. so, why not go to one of the better schools? i have NEVER heard a good answer to that question.

miasma

01-04-2006, 01:30 AM

haha, don't bother neil, some people just don't get it.

iuhsms4

01-04-2006, 02:15 AM

First, one makes an observation. You have done that successfully. However, then one collects data. Not just some data. But, all possible data before formulating a theory. You have failed to do that part.

iuhsms4

01-04-2006, 02:34 AM

neilc

01-04-2006, 02:36 AM

It is clear that you are not reading my replies thoroughly. I did not equate pre-med w/ boards. You did! I said that pre-med courses are good predictors of a student's study habits and diligence. Good students make "reputable" schools. How can a school who admits medicore students be considered "reputable". Because "independent sources" who may or may not have a vested interest in the school say so? I think you are missing the whole point here. IUHS could also get "independant sources" to evaluate their program and say it is reputable. At the end of the day, success in medicine takes hard work before and after medical school. Some students bypass the before part of the equation and work extra hard and succeed. I think that is great and should be continued. However, once states begin denying licensure to grads of online medical schools, who have a comparable curriculum to any foreign med school and admit many students who have completed ALL of their pre-med requirements, then those same states ought to hold every foreign medical school to the same standard as US medical schools, including completing all pre-medical coursework/MCAT prior to admission. We're talking about standards here. Many of the schools you mentioned were reputable do not meet the same admission standards as US medical schools who, believe it or not, ARE the model of medical education in my country. Nevertheless, this discussion is premature, because no IUHS grad has been denied licensure on the basis of how he/she acquired his/her medical education. I see MD after your name, but I also see "Prague". Are you planning on practicing medicine in my country? Or do you already practice here? Be careful for what you wish for. Because if licensing boards become stricter, you and many of your colleagues may not be able to practice here. I have heard of some states already denying licensure to MD's based on not satisfying pre-med requirements. Look that up! We should all be supportive of one another. IMG already have it rough. It is not wise to open up a can that may just explode in your own face. Be careful of what you wish for.......

First, one makes an observation. You have done that successfully. However, then one collects data. Not just some data. But, all possible data before formulating a theory. You have failed to do that part. You claim that "all states will deny licensure to online medical students". However, my state's dept. of professional regualtion, asssured me licensure as long as I fullfill the state's requirements which do NOT include physically attending a medical school for pre-clinical sciences. They do require that one completes his pre-clinical sciences AT a medical school. I even told them I did my pre-clinicals online. They asked, "Was it through a WHO , ECFMG approved meeical school?" I said, "Yes." They said, "That should not be a problem then."

Did you call every state in my country and ask them if they would deny licensure to online med grads? If the answer is no, then you did not collect all of your data. You have an interesting hypothesis, but that is all it is! I suggest that before making defamous and liable statements and assumptions, you may want to collect ALL available data. Then, test your hypothesis using your data. Then, and only then, reject your hypothesis if applicable. We use that sort of thinking in medicine. It's called scientific method. Maybe you could had benefited from those pre-med classes afterall!

dude, you are hilarious...
:D

lets see, where do i start? lets start with "reputable" schools. of the schools i mentioned, most have very similar requirements as to the US schools. sure the GPA's and MCAT's are generally lower than the US school, but the requirement is there at ross, auc, saba and sgu. so, they meet your definition of reputable, i guess. personally, i look at output as a determining factor, not input. the quality of the product. and, when compared to US schools, they certainly do fall a bit behind. at least they do if you use USMLE as the comparison. however, i do believe that even pass rates in the 60's indicate a pretty good success, given the lower quality applicant in general. so, if you want to rely on input, fine. you will have issues with that however. and, what do you do when the school comes from outside of the carib? how do you adjust for different education systems? clearly judging inputs is pretty inadequate.

then you question the "independent sources", and state IUHS could get them if they wanted? hilarious...i think that the NY medical board, the CA board and the Dept of Education are pretty reliable sources. all of the better schools, IMHO, have at least one of these outside sources to validate quality of education. perfect method? no. but certainly better than nothing. and, how many of these sources would validate IUHS? i daresay none. if you can think of ANY reputable source that would evaluate IUHS and give it a clean bill of health i would say that it certainly is in the schools best interest to do it. why don't they?

i agree that success takes hard work before and after medical school. and, i agree that there are likely a few students out there that may not need a traditional route and a great school to do well. but, SO FREAKIN WHAT!!!! that is NOT THE POINT!!! to evaluate every medical student individually and thoroughly is NOT PRACTICAL OR POSSIBLE!! so, what do we do now? do we accept every dodgy school's grad that can slip through the USMLE and hope for the best? i say no. far better is to establish reasonable standards of medical education (not based on input, but output...so, leave your silly MCAT and undergrad GPA argument out of this...irrelevent!), evaluate the fund of knowledge (through the USMLE), and require ACGME post gradute training. simple.

again, i see your point that there may be SOME good students that go to crappy schools that miss out by this method. what do i say to that??? too freakin bad. YOU made the poor choice of schools. there were lots of schools out there, and you certainly could have gotten into a school that would better provide for your future. any tool that chooses a crappy school is frankly not somebody i would want choosing medical treatments for me or my family. common sense and evidence based practice should come into play SOMEWHERE!

as for your little science project, data gathering, hypothesis crap. the fact is that yes, i DID look into MANY of the states laws. and, there are many that
SPECIFICALLY PROHIBIT distance education. for examples, look to NJ, MASS, TX, and CA, just to name a few. i did gather the data. it supports my hypothesis. now, you claim to have information to the contrary. post it. simple. prove me wrong. show me a licensed grad, and you will get my public aplogy, at least for that state that allowed it. i would love to hear what your home state is. i will call and verify this info myself. send me a PM if you don't want to post it. i will be happy to admit that i missed a state or two. but, that really won't change the gist of this post. instead of my position of IUHS being worthless in all states, it will change to being worthless in most states. the difference is academic.

and, FYI, i did graduate from prague. i am eligible for post graduate training in the czech republic, but i chose to return to the US. i already have a residency position. i have all my pre med requirements, and then some. i will have no problem in any state, based on any criteria they choose to use.

neilc

01-04-2006, 02:39 AM

Neil, you obviously are having trouble with reading comprehension. I know it's late. I never said that IUHS was irreputable. You did. Again, get your data. I know of many docs who are practicing that consider IUHS and it's students to be of very high standing. I rotate with students from many of the schools you mentioned. They are no better prepared for clinicals as I was. In fact, with my background, I was probably better prepared than most. IUHS is beginning to become more reputable every day. They have students in residency programs who will be licensed shortly. It is interesting that you fail to respond to the majority of my statements. You don't talk about your background. You don't address any points regarding pre-medical preparation and admissions policies as they relate to a school's prestige and reputation. Either you are ignorant regarding these points, or you are just evading them.

i did already address the premed admission policy **. it is irrelevent. i judge on output rather than input. i think you would agree that harvard has higher admission standards than howard, and sure they are more prestigious. but, they both have solid programs designed to give students the tools they need to succeed. they are both evaluated by the LCME. the grads all have to pass the USMLE and get a residency to get a license. so, the pre med stats really mean nothing once you get to this point. all pre med stats do is determine where you will study. the school has to meet standards independent of who they admit.

i can assure you that in no way is IUHS becoming more reputable. please, give me an example of that. any example of somebody who does not attend the school, and who is not paid by the school saying anything positive about it will do.

show us those residents. where are they? and what states do they plan on being licensed in? that is easy enough to show, so do it.

and, what on EARTH does my background have to do with IUHS grads getting a license???? talk about diversion.

neilc

01-04-2006, 02:42 AM

here, lets just make this simple. no matter how i think schools should or shouldn't be evaluated. lets just look at the reality of the world we live in now.

my challenges to you:
1) show us which states are open to distance education
2) show us one licensed grad
3) show us one of these many residents
4) tell us where they plan to apply for licensure
5) show me one iota of evidence that IUHS is becoming respected (and this cannot come from anybody paid by the school or attending the school)

simple stuff, right? i think we would agree that the proof is in the pudding. my assertation is that IUHS is a practically worthless degree, at least from the on-line program. my proof is in the state laws, which are easy enough to verify. i already gave states that don't accept IUHS. your turn

neilc

01-04-2006, 02:46 AM

haha, don't bother neil, some people just don't get it.

you are telling me! jeez! you would think an ex-college professor would see the reality...

iuhsms4

01-04-2006, 02:49 AM

IUHS has reasonable standards of medical education, grads have passed USMLE, and are in ACGME post grad training programs. You finally got it! I am proud of you. However, you still need to work on your data collection. And, none of those schools you mentioned require 2 semesters of physics w/ lab. You can get admitted w/ 1 semester. Get your data.......... dude. lol

iuhsms4

01-04-2006, 02:51 AM

I challenge you to answer those 5 challenges for Charles University. Never heard of it.

neilc

01-04-2006, 02:54 AM

i agree that success takes hard work before and after medical school. and, i agree that there are likely a few students out there that may not need a traditional route and a great school to do well. but, SO FREAKIN WHAT!!!! that is NOT THE POINT!!! to evaluate every medical student individually and thoroughly is NOT PRACTICAL OR POSSIBLE!! so, what do we do now? do we accept every dodgy school's grad that can slip through the USMLE and hope for the best? i say no. far better is to establish reasonable standards of medical education (not based on input, but output...so, leave your silly MCAT and undergrad GPA argument out of this...irrelevent!), evaluate the fund of knowledge (through the USMLE), and require ACGME post gradute training. simple.

IUHS has reasonable standards of medical education, grads have passed USMLE, and are in ACGME post grad training programs. You finally got it! I am proud of you. However, you still need to work on your data collection. And, none of those schools you mentioned require 2 semesters of physics w/ lab. You can get admitted w/ 1 semester. Get your data.......... dude. lol

hahahahhaha! sorry, i missed that extra physics semester! you are right!! hahahhahahhahahha! i cannot believe how sharp you are. how could i have missed that!

omg, i think you just gave me a hernia. and, no, i would not let an IUHS grad operate on me for it. your entire argument hinges on whether a school requires an extra semester of physics, arguabely the LEAST important pre med class. that is hilarious! always back to the pre med requirements. guess you have no other argument. hey, if that is all you got, prof, then i feel really sorry for your former students. they are going to be lost in the world if they relied on that superb intellect!!!

btw, who, outside of the school admin and students has evaluated IUHS and stated that the educational standard is high? uhhhh...nobody. sorry, but your word is biased and means squat. so, no IUHS does not measure up.

anyhow, just read the 5 challenges. we will leave it at that.

neilc

01-04-2006, 03:07 AM

I challenge you to answer those 5 challenges for Charles University. Never heard of it.

no problem

1. charles university does not offer distance education
2. http://www.cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/24585.html here is the first alum i found, again on a google search. there is another alum on faculty at stanford, as well as several other highly rated med schools
3. http://www.siumed.edu/cfpc/residents.htm here is one resident, the first i found on a simple google search
4. there are grads in most states. i have checked and done plenty of searches. here is one example, again from a simple google search: http://westsidemedicalcenter.com/bios.htm
5. take a look at this site to see what sort of programs the school is involved in:http://www.lf1.cuni.cz/default.asp?nDepartmentID=215&nLanguageID=2
. as for an independent source of "reputation", how about we start with the CA medical boards approval of the czech and english language programs, as well as the DOE approval for federal loans.

your turn

and, if you want more grads, residents or references to academic excellence, they are out there. use google, medline or whatever. but, i don't need that much from you. just one of each. simple, right?

iuhsms4

01-04-2006, 03:13 AM

neilc

01-04-2006, 03:18 AM

Again, you continue to evade the topic. I am simply proving that you make assumptions that are not backed by solid data. You have said several times that, "I doubt........." The fact is you don't know. 2nd semester physics is just as relevant as online education. The difference is US medical schools, who are the standard in this country, require it. Many US schools also incorporate online education in their curriculum. If you are going to make blind assumptions regarding online education and licensure, then why not make the same blind assumption regarding pre-med requirements in respect to licensure and prestige and reputability of medical school. You are proving why it is so important for our future doctors to be educated. GET YOUR DATA! STOP ASSUMING, DOUBTING, ETC....I am really trying to help you become a more responsible and concise thinker. Especially because you may be practicing medicine in my country. Please do not assume facts about your patients before asking them. That would be irresponsible and potentially dangerous. Please reply when you have gathered your data. If you don't have the patience and time to gather all the data, please don't continue to make ridiculous statements which are embarrasing to you and the school who granted you an MD.

dude, give me a break. you are really, really nit picking here. my school is certainly not embarassed of me. how about we turn it around...you show me the data that says semester 2 of physics is important, and i will give it some significance. and, the argument is not about US med schools. it is about adopting a set of standards for offshore schools. my position is simply this: high standard school (as determined by outside recognition as well as academic track record), pass the boards and complete a residency. you are simply trying to confuse the issue by bringing pre med and other such non sense into it. if you think pre med standards should be a high priority when evaluating schools, great. if you want all med students to have completed 2 semesters of physics, fine. talk to your state med board. obviously you need to find some way of justifying your choice in schools, and i will not deprive you of your self deceit.
don't attempt to patronize me by saying i am trying to help you become a clear and concise thinker. your choice in a med school gives you very little credibility as far as utilizing evidence based decision making.

but, how about we stay on subject...the question? is IUHS a school that will provide you with a useful, recognized degree. can you do that? so far, the answer is a resounding NO!!!!

i asked you for 5 simple examples of the DATA that would show IUHS as being somewhat viable. they were simple challenges, in order for you to back up your claims with DATA. (i am just tryin to help you be a more concise thinker. so, find some DATA and back up what you claim).

you tried to sidetrack it by turning the question on me. i answered. your turn. put up or shut up.

iuhsms4

01-04-2006, 03:21 AM

I'm done. You obviously don't get it. Good luck in future medical career.

neilc

01-04-2006, 03:30 AM

I'm done. You obviously don't get it. Good luck in future medical career.

game, set and match.

sorry you couldn't come up with anything to support your ridiculous claims. i hope you do better at convincing the state boards to accept your "credentials". i guess for all of your spouting about DATA, you only believe that others need to find it and use it.

btw, it was likely wise of you not to blow the cover of the "many" IUHS residents and "licensed" grads. if they exist, it is surely because somebody did not check closely enough into the "education" they recieved.

oh yeah, and thanks for the lesson in responsible and concise thinking. truly, you should have employed those lessons yourself when choosing where to spend your hard earned dollars on an "education".

Ming

01-04-2006, 06:23 AM

IUHS4,
my girlfriend was reading over my shoulder and asked me to inquire if you are one of the lecturers at IUHS. My

Ming

01-04-2006, 06:42 AM

IUHS4,
my girlfriend was reading over my shoulder and asked me to inquire if you are one of the lecturering students at IUHS. Her two friends at IUHS say you are and that is one of the reasons you state it is a good school. If that is so, wouldn't you agree that is as strong bias?
We read all the recent discussions and the bottom line is that there are not many good off-shore schools. Anyone choosing IUHS over a long history off-shore school must have very specific reasons that can't be satisfied by attendance at a place such as St. George's for instance. The first instance would be financial, certainly not it's reputation. By that I mean the student probably has to work while doing pre-clinicals.
Ironically, that is an interesting discussion on its own. If a student has good pre-med grades, they should be able to get into a good local school. It might be possible that they didn't do so well on the interview portion of the admissions grading. That's an important item as the interview is designed to try to find the most stable personalities which is equally as important as good grades, all things being equal. Some of the discussions here seem to raise that more as a probability than possibility. Many students at IUHS might be older than desired by regular schools.

There is not yet a student from IUHS that has started from the beginning of the on-line pre-clinical who has been licenced. If that were a fact, it would be all over their website. IUHS has had a lot of students who were kicked out of regular US medical schools and went to IUHS to try to finish up. Basically request to be placed in clinicals to finish up or just sponsor them to sit USMLE. This is nothing more than IUHS picking up a fee for signing papers.
What was your shining incentive to choose such a school with such a bad past and bad reputation?

lmoliver

01-04-2006, 12:50 PM

I'm done. You obviously don't get it. Good luck in future medical career.

No, you don't get it!! You were asked quite simply to supply some evidence and you would not. I'm sceptical but hope you are right. I would like to know if what you say is true. My husband's health is delicate and I would be one to really benefit from an online pre-clinical program.

Stop ranting and raving. Just give us the state(s) and the name of a licensed grad(s).

mcgrady

01-04-2006, 01:22 PM

hey oliver

i work with 2 in england...seriously, i was shocked. but it seems that they were really serious about it. I'm afraid i can not going to tell where and when they qualified so the sceptics don't end up calling authorities to jeorpadise someonelse's career.... but believe me i know them very well. they r excellent

azskeptic

01-04-2006, 01:25 PM

mcgrady

01-04-2006, 01:30 PM

i don't think they care who u r or what u plan to do against them... but it's not going to happen this time. they r not stchris students my boy, they r DOCTORS. get a life!!!

mcgrady

01-04-2006, 01:32 PM

do u know how many caribbean students are rotating in the uk now???? i guess not!

azskeptic

01-04-2006, 01:35 PM

do u know how many caribbean students are rotating in the uk now???? i guess not! The GMC is in the process of issuing a statement on clinicals incidentally.

mcgrady

01-04-2006, 01:37 PM

hahahaha!!!!

mcgrady

01-04-2006, 01:38 PM

really??? hahahaha

mcgrady

01-04-2006, 01:40 PM

leave them alone, travelling all this way to rotate and now u want them to take slack from u??? give me break.

Genossa maximillian

01-04-2006, 04:08 PM

However, prevously I did mention and factored in the equation a student that has not only passed his board tests but who has also performed excellent or well on his clinial rotations and or their residency. I think that those are instances where the student's ability and knowledge can be better evaluated. Provided all this, is he or she still incompetent or banned from licensure just because they did 2 years of basic sciences the non-traditional way?

Your turn.

Disclosure...My statements DO NOT consititute and endorsement to IUHS.

i think the problem here is that most would agree that these steps, by themselves, are pretty inadequate as a screening device, or as a measure of ability. the fact is, there are a lot of phd's out there that could likely self study for a while and pass. there are a lot of med studs out there that DO do that. i think by requiring attendance at a reputable, accredited med school that demonstrates some standards (which are evaluated by some outside, independent sources) minimizes the risk that somebody can "slip" through, and just pass the exam. the assumption being that by attending a reputable school, the passing of the USMLE is simply a verification of knowledge being aquired. it is not the sole requirement.

the fact that licensure is a multi-step process in the USA offers the patients some protection. i think that protection should actually be increased by requiring additional evaluation and oversight of international schools.

having a degree from a reputable school, coupled with the passing of the USMLE exams and completion of a ACGME residency is a pretty rigorous and thorough. elimination of even one of those steps (ie allowing anyone who wants to attempt the test to take it) cuts out 33% of the protection in place to the patients. that is too much to ask, IMHO

Carmen

01-04-2006, 04:28 PM

Neither of these doctors did their pre-clinical on-line. They are both oral surgeons, one completed his pre-clinical and clinical rotations in an English University. The other was granted advanced standing because he was an oral surgeon.

Sorry to disappoint you. I have been told who these doctors are and would be happy to elaborate without disclosing any information that could hurt either of them. Feel free to send me a p.m.

Carmen

Genossa maximillian

01-04-2006, 04:28 PM

observe the GMC actions that are currently happening and I think you'll kow the future of IUHS/UHSA acceptance in the UK

The GMC actions are yet to be determined. You are speculating. Like going to a horse track and picking up a horse, no different. Let them rule and STOP the speculation. Once they rule, one way or the other, then we will comment. We are all just amateurs dude, no matter how hard we try. Let the experts figure it out.

Don't you remember what the GMC did 2 weeks ago? They said one thing about St. Chris and apparently they got too many phone calls on the subject or who knows what happened they reverted back their language. So, gambling on any GMC investigation is pretty much like playing black jack, especially when the GMC has the tendency to revert itself.

azskeptic

01-04-2006, 05:13 PM

The GMC actions are yet to be determined. You are speculating. Like going to a horse track and picking up a horse, no different. Let them rule and STOP the speculation. Once they rule, one way or the other, then we will comment. We are all just amateurs dude, no matter how hard we try. Let the experts figure it out.

Don't you remember what the GMC did 2 weeks ago? They said one thing about St. Chris and apparently they got too many phone calls on the subject or who knows what happened they reverted back their language. So, gambling on any GMC investigation is pretty much like playing black jack, especially when the GMC has the tendency to revert itself. The GMC has stated they are going to issue a statement on clinicals and update their website on the offshore education issue. We don't know what that means but we know that they will do something ultimately,one way or the other.

iuhsms4

01-04-2006, 08:27 PM

See my past posts. Good luck in your future medical education.

lmoliver

01-04-2006, 08:57 PM

First, I am not a faculty member. I am a student at IUHS. I have not been "ranting and raving". I simply pointed out that several people on this forum are spreading untruths about IUHS based on inadequate data. This is shameful especially because many of you are medical students or doctors who presumably understand scientific method. I challenge you to collect all available data before making conclusions. You haven't, so therefore you are being irresponsible. Below are facts based on REAL data:

1. IUHS is a new school and it's grads have not completed residencies yet. Hence, they have not been able to apply for licensure. However, they alll have been granted licensure through their states to be residents with prescription privledges, etc... Use common sense! Why would a state grant residency licensure to a person who they didn't think was qualified because they did their pre-clinical sciences online. I know- you're going to say that residents are under the supervision of an attending. However, any of you who have rotated at a University hospital know that when a resident wants to write an order, he does not need the seal of approval from his attending. He writes it and the nursing staff on the ward fills it often w/o the signature or verbal ok of an attending. States know this! So, what makes you think that same state will not grant unrestricted licensure to the same resident after completion of his residency program? That is ridiculous. NY will not license IUHS grads. Hence, IUHS grads cannot do residencies in NY! However, if State B licenses residents who graduated from IUHS. Then, they should have no reservation granting unrestricted licensure to that person once he completes his residency requirement. Do you actually think that there are states that have regulations that say, "If you did your pre-clinicals online, you can go ahead and prescribe meds and take care of our state's citizens as a resident for 3-12 years. HOWEVER!!!! If you did your pre-clinicals online, you cannot practice medicine in this state once you finish your residency! Dammit!!" Do you see how ridiculous that is? I know someone will try to dispute this, but c'mon now. Enough is enough! Save your fingers and our minds from your unjustifiable replies.

2. All the IUHS grads I know who applied for licensure have been granted licensure in their states after completing their residencies. I nor anyone from IUHS is going to give their names and locations especially in this forum for obvious reasons.

3. Not all states require physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. However, my state does require that one takes pre-clinical sciences at a medical school. This simply means they will not count your Biochemistry that you took while you were an undergraduate Chemistry major as the Biochem. requirement for state licensure. I have confirmed that fact on several occasions with my state's dept. of professional regulation. Once the IUHS bashers call every state's dept. of professional regulation, they will find that this fact is true for several states. But as you know, they won't for the same reasons they slacked off as undergrads and didn't get accepted into a US med school. Hmmm?

The above are facts based on solid data collection. The rest of the garbage you are reading on here is from a few disgruntled people who have no hard evidence to back up anything they say. So, if you read their replies, all you read are statements like "Your wasting your money. IUHS grads will never get licensed. The administration is unqualified. The school is a sham! Blah Blah Blah." Those comments are almost laughable! The only data that has been presented on this forum that is remotely true is that some states will not license IUHS grads who completed their pre-clinicals online. The key word is "some". The fact is the people who are saying this have only inquired 7-8 states. And, they have the audacity to extrapolate this to the other 40 some states! This is irresponsible and ignorant. I challenge you, as an unbiased reader, to ask Carmen, AZSpectic, the guy from Prague, and anybody else who bashes IUHS to provide you with some solid data, meaning every state's licensing requirements regarding physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. They won't be able to. Because not every state has that written in their regulations. These uninformed individuals will just keep printing assumptions and opinions. PLEASE DO NOT CUT AND PASTE ONE PORTION OF THIS REPLY AND RESPOND TO IT. IF YOU WISH TO DISPUTE THIS REPLY, DISPUTE IT IN IT'S ENTIRETY. STOP EVADING THE MOST IMPORATANT ISSUES I RAISE. Good luck in your future medical education.

No, first things first. What state or states? Why is that a secret?

azskeptic

01-04-2006, 09:38 PM

No, first things first. What state or states? Why is that a secret? because they aren't licensed as MD's..they are oral surgeons who are licensed as DDS's

neilc

01-04-2006, 10:16 PM

First, I am not a faculty member. I am a student at IUHS. I have not been "ranting and raving". I simply pointed out that several people on this forum are spreading untruths about IUHS based on inadequate data. This is shameful especially because many of you are medical students or doctors who presumably understand scientific method. I challenge you to collect all available data before making conclusions. You haven't, so therefore you are being irresponsible. Below are facts based on REAL data:

1. IUHS is a new school and it's grads have not completed residencies yet. Hence, they have not been able to apply for licensure. However, they alll have been granted licensure through their states to be residents with prescription privledges, etc... Use common sense! Why would a state grant residency licensure to a person who they didn't think was qualified because they did their pre-clinical sciences online. I know- you're going to say that residents are under the supervision of an attending. However, any of you who have rotated at a University hospital know that when a resident wants to write an order, he does not need the seal of approval from his attending. He writes it and the nursing staff on the ward fills it often w/o the signature or verbal ok of an attending. States know this! So, what makes you think that same state will not grant unrestricted licensure to the same resident after completion of his residency program? That is ridiculous. NY will not license IUHS grads. Hence, IUHS grads cannot do residencies in NY! However, if State B licenses residents who graduated from IUHS. Then, they should have no reservation granting unrestricted licensure to that person once he completes his residency requirement. Do you actually think that there are states that have regulations that say, "If you did your pre-clinicals online, you can go ahead and prescribe meds and take care of our state's citizens as a resident for 3-12 years. HOWEVER!!!! If you did your pre-clinicals online, you cannot practice medicine in this state once you finish your residency! Dammit!!" Do you see how ridiculous that is? I know someone will try to dispute this, but c'mon now. Enough is enough! Save your fingers and our minds from your unjustifiable replies.

2. All the IUHS grads I know who applied for licensure have been granted licensure in their states after completing their residencies. I nor anyone from IUHS is going to give their names and locations especially in this forum for obvious reasons.

3. Not all states require physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. However, my state does require that one takes pre-clinical sciences at a medical school. This simply means they will not count your Biochemistry that you took while you were an undergraduate Chemistry major as the Biochem. requirement for state licensure. I have confirmed that fact on several occasions with my state's dept. of professional regulation. Once the IUHS bashers call every state's dept. of professional regulation, they will find that this fact is true for several states. But as you know, they won't for the same reasons they slacked off as undergrads and didn't get accepted into a US med school. Hmmm?

The above are facts based on solid data collection. The rest of the garbage you are reading on here is from a few disgruntled people who have no hard evidence to back up anything they say. So, if you read their replies, all you read are statements like "Your wasting your money. IUHS grads will never get licensed. The administration is unqualified. The school is a sham! Blah Blah Blah." Those comments are almost laughable! The only data that has been presented on this forum that is remotely true is that some states will not license IUHS grads who completed their pre-clinicals online. The key word is "some". The fact is the people who are saying this have only inquired 7-8 states. And, they have the audacity to extrapolate this to the other 40 some states! This is irresponsible and ignorant. I challenge you, as an unbiased reader, to ask Carmen, AZSpectic, the guy from Prague, and anybody else who bashes IUHS to provide you with some solid data, meaning every state's licensing requirements regarding physical attendance during pre-clinical sciences. They won't be able to. Because not every state has that written in their regulations. These uninformed individuals will just keep printing assumptions and opinions. PLEASE DO NOT CUT AND PASTE ONE PORTION OF THIS REPLY AND RESPOND TO IT. IF YOU WISH TO DISPUTE THIS REPLY, DISPUTE IT IN IT'S ENTIRETY. STOP EVADING THE MOST IMPORATANT ISSUES I RAISE. Good luck in your future medical education.

1. there is not a shred of your precious DATA in this point. the FACT is that obtaining a resident license is infinitely easier than getting a permanent license in many states. you are obviously not informed on this matter. many states simply require a LIST OF NAMES from the residency program, and they will issue training licenses. in order to get permanent license, the process is much, much more rigorous. so, despite your opinion that it makes no sense, the facts are very different than what you post. do your research, and use your scientific method, socrates. practice what you preach.

2. this, again, is not data. give names and locations. if they are legit and practicing within the law they have nothing to fear. if you refuse it is clear that you are either lying, or they have something to hide. which is it?

3. again, name one state that will accept this. i have called several. what i ask is simple. "will you accept medical education that is completed via distance or online methods for licensure in this state". the answer thus far has always been NO. prove me wrong. name a state. what is your home state? failure to post some DATA again simply shows that you are lying or scared that somebody will blow your cover.

you spout off about "data collection" and "responsible thinking", and then you simply expect us to take you at your word? every challenge has remained UNMET by you. again, put up or shut up.

i am begining to see why you are at IUHS.

Genossa maximillian

01-04-2006, 10:24 PM

because they aren't licensed as MD's..they are oral surgeons who are licensed as DDS's

I will be honest with you guys and do not take this as an insult. My perception , and I am pretty sure the perception of iuhsms4 and any reasonable person who can read between the lines of thess threads is that(once the information of thse folks doing residencies or if there is a licnesed grad out there get on this forum) anyone with a grudge against this particular school or its program, will go on to sabotage their efforts and work. It is obvious I mean, why insist so much when we know that evetually that information can go public.

I may have some issues with IUHS and other schools, I may question their operating practices, but in no way I would ever, ever sabotage someone else, that is simply playing dirty, and I do not like to play dirty.

Whats is the real motive behind knowing wich student is doing what at IUHS? Lets level here. Is it for a mere statistical purpose or really to put these folks on the hot spot and humilliate them? I expect a line like, "well, we are doing it for the benefit of the patients and the public..etc" I don't buy that, we have been doing that all over Valumed one way or other.

Another question , why won't we just chill out and see how these residents do and or this alleged licensed grad does before we judge them? Then , we can have an idea how good this program or any program with a basic sciences component work. We cannot assume it won't work until we see results.

If any of us are really up to get someone for the hell of getting them without the opportunity to be listened and present evidence of their competence, it reflects on our characters and it really says the kind of people we truly are.

Again, this is not meant as an insult but as a pause to sit and think what our real motives are.

If any of you have an issue with this posting, PM me, we can discuss this as civilized people in private, not make a circus out of it, after all, aren't we supposed to be educated people and not fanatics?

Cheers,