failing a basic science class- hot potato!

[andrew]

Here's a whopper that might challenge the conventional wisdom that basic science grades don't matter when it comes time to apply for residency. An article in this week's New England Journal which takes a look at the characteristics of disciplined physicians and how they did in medical school, shows that each class failed during the first two years gives an odds ratio of 1.6 for being "an undesirable" with a 95% CI between 1.2 and 2.2 with a p value of 0.004. Other than unprofessional behavior, it seems like the best predictor for future disciplinary action. This is in the NEJM, so you'd better believe that every single program director in the country has this on the brain now. We are looking straight into the mouth of the age of evidence based admissions, and until someone comes up with a better study that can challenge these findings, I think that it's safe to say that it is no longer responsible to say that,

"Oh, don't worry about your grades in the first two years, all they care about is your USMLE".

[AOk]

Here's a whopper that might challenge the conventional wisdom that basic science grades don't matter when it comes time to apply for residency. An article in this week's New England Journal which takes a look at the characteristics of disciplined physicians and how they did in medical school, shows that each class failed during the first two years gives an odds ratio of 1.6 for being "an undesirable" with a 95% CI between 1.2 and 2.2 with a p value of 0.004. Other than unprofessional behavior, it seems like the best predictor for future disciplinary action. This is in the NEJM, so you'd better believe that every single program director in the country has this on the brain now. We are looking straight into the mouth of the age of evidence based admissions, and until someone comes up with a better study that can challenge these findings, I think that it's safe to say that it is no longer responsible to say that,
"Oh, don't worry about your grades in the first two years, all they care about is your USMLE".
Including grades.

[kingalls]

woohoo! grades matter again. haha

[envivany1]

Ofcourse grades matter, but what we usually say is that gettings A's doesnt really make much of a difference. Being a foreign school, they dont have any idea of your curicullum and dont know how easy it is to get an A in your school. But I dont think anyone ever said that it wasnt important to pass all your classes; try to pass them ofcourse, failing classes cant be a good thing, but I know ppl who have failed, retaken the courses and been able to get residencies. I think ppl in med school emphasize too much on GPA, well its not like that, USMLE is the usually the standard by which you are judged

[miasma]

yeah, just pass the classes on first try if possible, but i don't really think basic science gpa will ultimately determine much in terms of getting a residency.

[Groove]

I really don't agree with this philosophy of downplaying the importance of basic science grades. I see it pop up all the time on this forum and I think it gives a bad message to incoming students. Sure, in the grand scheme of things, USMLE scores are certainly going to play a much more critical role in residency choices, etc.. but the best way to PREPARE for the USMLE is to study your butt off during the first two years. Do you really want to make it that much harder for yourself when preparing for Step 1? Do you honestly want to risk failing Step 1 on the first try? Surely I don't need to remind everyone how much is on the line for most of us who are going to be 200K+ in debt when this is all said and done, and have all our hopes and dreams riding on how well we perform on the USMLE board exams. Call me paranoid or a worry wart, but I consider myself a realist. Step 1 can make or break my chances for certain specialties or residencies and I just think it's a bad idea to nurture a lackadaisical attitude toward basic science studies in med school. I'm not saying that you need to make A's in everything by any means, but straight C's or failing grades should be a wake up call to most students that they need to try harder.

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[The Trifling Jester]

Most people have asked about grades in their relation to getting a residency position. Being "an undesirable" is not the same thing as "have an effect on residency placement." And it doesn't matter what kind of an effect this knowledge has on incoming students; the facts are the facts. We shouldn't hide anything because some students might not try as hard. If they aren't going to try hard in the basic science classes I doubt it's cause they read something on an internet messageboard - slackers don't need any motivation to be lazy, they'll do it all on their own.

The vast majority of people who have been through the interview process will attest that B.S. (how apropos!) grades have little to nothing to do with getting a residency position. I know of several programs which cite USMLE scores as a criterion for weeding out applications. I know of no programs which use B.S. grades as a screening tool.

Regards,
The Trifling Jester

[andrew]

While Iserson's and First Aid might downplay the role of pre-clinical grades, the point I'm trying to make, is that as of this week PD's have something pretty interesting to mull over in terms of this study.

-A

who thinks that Iserson deserves a whupping for telling people to wear black suits and ask irritating questions for the sake of appearing interested