When does it stop mattering...

[hassaholic]

............................

[OLDPRO]

When does it stop mattering what school you attend or will it stop?

For example, after you complete your USMLE's and obtain a residency, does it matter what school you attend or do they only look at what you did on your boards and where you did your residecny?
Oh yes it matters! Board scores are very important. If you go to any place outside of the USA you are a FMG and that matters too. After residency though it matters much less.

Good luck

[hassaholic]

.................................

[OLDPRO]

I think I worded the question wrong...

Many people on the value MD boards talk about licenscing and such...

If one gets really good grades on the boards and gets a very good residency, will he be able to get liscenced even if, god forbid, something bad/currupt, happens the the medical school that they attended?

For example, if you go to St. Chris and get in the 90+% on your boards and you get a good residency, are you then "immune" from the fate of what happen to St. Chris?
No look at Spartan. They had trouble in CA after being approved and the rejected. There are problems if the school goes belly up before you get a full Lic. But St. Chris has currently about 700 students and still growing. I do not forsee this at this time. Krigezi had a fraction of that when they went belly up.

[neilc]

some things stop as soon as you get a residency, some never. the licensing issues tend to be very long term, if not permanent. on the other hand, once you get your residency spot, most patients and doctors will no longer care or have any idea where you went to school.

[oldquack]

good luck in getting that residency spot without any usa clinical experience, this is one area St Chris is coming out trumps!

[neilc]

good luck in getting that residency spot without any usa clinical experience, this is one area St Chris is coming out trumps!

as far as i know every carib school has US grads. and, sgu, ross, auc saba certainly don't have trouble placing their students. so, while it is great that st chris has clinicals stateside, that is not something other schools do not also have.

[hassaholic]

..................

[OLDPRO]

What do you mean? St. Chris is bad at setting up residencies? Schools do not set up residencies. That is the MATCH.
It's when you apply for your first job.

[ansgenius]

I think he means good luck getting a residency without being exposed to US clinicals. Clinicals are a good time to get your face seen and getting your foot in the door, paving the way for a future residency spot.

[teratos]

I think he means good luck getting a residency without being exposed to US clinicals. Clinicals are a good time to get your face seen and getting your foot in the door, paving the way for a future residency spot.

No, US clinicals aren't as important as you may think. G

[Picard]

Teratos is right. Newer schools/schools with zero external approvals like to brag about US rotations that established schools have had for years/decades and have moved beyond that. If you go to a reputatble school, it really doesn't matter if you do US rotations. I have classmates who did their entire clinical years in the UK and have consistantly gotten great residency slots. I've NEVER heard of a classmate who failed to get residency because he/she did rotations (doesn't matter the amount) in the UK.

P

[oldquack]

Disagree with you two- many residency spots have a minimium time requirement of experience in USA to apply, between 6mths and 1 year- which can be met via rotations or shadowing. Also there is preference by residency directors towards students they have had rotate through- if they are any good of course

Yes of course you can get great residency spots from good schools abroad- but most of those students are citizens of their respective country and are the cream of the respective crop- not americans who could not get into USA schools, and dont try to compare rotations in the UK with third world/newly developed countries- apples and oranges

[teratos]

Disagree with you two

Your perogative.

[bts4202]

Disagree with you two- many residency spots have a minimium time requirement of experience in USA to apply, between 6mths and 1 year- which can be met via rotations or shadowing. Also there is preference by residency directors towards students they have had rotate through- if they are any good of course

Yes of course you can get great residency spots from good schools abroad- but most of those students are citizens of their respective country and are the cream of the respective crop- not americans who could not get into USA schools, and dont try to compare rotations in the UK with third world/newly developed countries- apples and oranges

I agree with oldquack, many programs require at least 1 year of experience in teh US. PLus, it makes it a lot easier to get a residency at a specific place if you have rotated there and the people know and like you. I have gotten residency offers while doing rotations here. It may not be essential to have US experience, but it certainly does help.

[neilc]

despite what many websites say, the US clinical experience is not a hard and fast rule. i have very little US experience, and have been getting LOTS of interest from places that i never rotated at, and these places also have a "requirement" of 1 year US clinicals.

remember, there are THOUSANDS of grads each year that get residency spots without 1 day of US experience. and, more to the point, the clinicals at st chris are NO DIFFERENT than all the established schools in the carib. so, these clinical rotations are not really an advantage for st chris, they are simply one of the few areas that st chris matches up with the better schools.

[bts4202]

lol, look I do not like to argue with people for no reason, but I have to comment on this.

1. Neilc, u do not know where st chris students rotate at, you only know the very rare few places that are mentioned on this website. 2 of the hospitals I rotated at had only st chris students and 2 had only 1 other school. So please do not comment on st chris clinicals when you do not actually know anything about them. It only shows arrogance.

2. Please do not tell people you are getting "LOTS of interest" from programs. I am also matching this year and i know just as well as you that we can not even apply to residencies yet. You may be getting a lot of "Oh yes, you should apply to our program!!" But that means nothing. In Oct/Nov is when you will know how much "interest" they actually have in you.

3. Community programs that have a 1 year US clinical requirement will usually waive it. However, more competitive places usually will not since they have a much larger pool of applicants to choose from. If you do not care where you go, then US clins means little.. but then again, if you do not care where you go, USMLE score means relatively little also. If you want a nice University based residency, then 1 year US clins is probably more important.

[neilc]

1. so st chris has fantastic, secret sites that are actually better than what the other schools have? these sites somehow count MORE toward US clinical experience? they are MORE helpful that what AUC, Ross, SGU and SABA have? if going by match lists is any indicator, your school really doesn't have anything on these other schools sites. i am sure the st chris sites are great, but i still fail to see how they can be better, and how you can know they are better....

2. well, i have been invited to come meet 4pd's at university and university affiliated programs within the next month. i also had a few programs that i am interested in ask me to come do rotations and/or observerships in the next couple months. to me, when a program goes out of the way to contact or call you, invite you to meet pd's and ask you to rotate through, it means they are interested. i have also had a few of the standard "please send in an application" replies, so i think i can tell the difference between genuine interest, and those programs that are waiting til oct/nov to do anything. i do know the schedule for the match, and i am applying. but, there are ways to show interest beyond the "feel free to send in an app". by the way, ever hear of a pre-match?

3. again, i am visiting university programs in CA (and at the departments request), that by all measures are among the more competitve. they don't care at all about US clinicals, other than i have strong LOR's.

[neilc]

I agree with oldquack, many programs require at least 1 year of experience in teh US. PLus, it makes it a lot easier to get a residency at a specific place if you have rotated there and the people know and like you. I have gotten residency offers while doing rotations here. It may not be essential to have US experience, but it certainly does help.

here is a prime example of you showing how programs can show interest...did you forget about this when trying to say that there is no way for a program to show interest before oct/nov? or, are these residency offers (or any other sign of programs interest) only for st chris students at the double secret rotation sites?
:rolleyes:

[bts4202]

hahaha, man, u are too funny.

So what your saying is that hopsitals that you never rotated at nor turned in any application to, are calling you out of the blue cause they somehow heard of you and are begging you to come in so the PD's can meet you? And that, in fact, 4 hospitals have done this?? hahahahahahaha.

Oh wow, I needed that. If someone believes that, I have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you, its only slightly used.

i have very little US experience, and have been getting LOTS of interest from places that i never rotated at, and these places also have a "requirement" of 1 year US clinicals.

2. well, i have been invited to come meet 4pd's at university and university affiliated programs in CA within the next month. i also had a few programs that i am interested in ask me to come do rotations and/or observerships in the next couple months. to me, when a program goes out of the way to contact you, invite you to meet pd's and ask you to rotate through, it means they are interested.

[TAFKA]

edited to remove text

[bts4202]

hey ****, I know i reminded you earlier not to feed the troll. I should have taken my own advice, but it was just WAAAYYYYY too funny not to. LOL.

[neilc]

no, they didn't hear about me through the grapevine, and that is not how i meant it. it was not meant to be some arrogant thing, either. the fact is, i am a decent applicant. there are pre-match spots out there, and these programs are interested in me filling them. i was either introduced or contacted programs. they called me after reviewing my qualifications. if you think that going to meet a PD and tour the program is going on a US clinical, you are mistaken. and, i don't need any more clincals. i am done. the invitations came unsolicited from programs that i had shown interest in. i find it hard to believe that these clinicals that everyone is clamouring to get, that seem to be so valuable to you to, are just offered to everyone. so, does that not idicate at least some interest? that is all i was saying...

[TAFKA]

edited to remove text

[bts4202]

is there a valuemd hall of fame for the truly great posts? if so, this neilc masterpiece should be the piece de resistance!!!

This website really does provide hours of entertainent ... haha

[neilc]

is there a valuemd hall of fame for the truly great posts? if so, this neilc masterpiece should be the piece de resistance!!!

strong words..sure, we believe that you left AUC for a shady, unproven school, just because you wanted to live in Luton. right....

so, let me get this straight...these programs are not interested in me? the PD just has an afternoon to kill? i love how you st chris folks change the discussion from pertinent info (ie st chris has nothing special, nothing that other schools don't have) and pick out bits and pieces of my post to try to change the subject....no arrogance was intended, nor was there any **. i was simply showing that US clinical experience is not as essential as some would have you believe. helpful, yes. but, there are many, many situations in which excellent spots are open without a minute of US experience.

[neilc]

2. well, i have been invited to come meet 4pd's at university and university affiliated programs within the next month. i also had a few programs that i am interested in ask me to come do rotations and/or observerships in the next couple months. to me, when a program goes out of the way to contact or call you, invite you to meet pd's and ask you to rotate through, it means they are interested. i have also had a few of the standard "please send in an application" replies, so i think i can tell the difference between genuine interest, and those programs that are waiting til oct/nov to do anything. i do know the schedule for the match, and i am applying. but, there are ways to show interest beyond the "feel free to send in an app". by the way, ever hear of a pre-match?



so the above is arrogant and ridiculous, but the following is fine?

I agree with oldquack, many programs require at least 1 year of experience in teh US. PLus, it makes it a lot easier to get a residency at a specific place if you have rotated there and the people know and like you. I have gotten residency offers while doing rotations here. It may not be essential to have US experience, but it certainly does help.

yeah...i see it...it is cool if bts tells a story about a program interested, cause he is from st chris, with the amazing secret clinical sites..at these sites magic ponies take you from bedside to bedside, and all the residency programs in the states will beg to have you as a resident...all thanks to st chris!

but, if neil has a similar story, it is **, it is arrogant, and it could never happen....sure.

you guys live in a fairy land.

[bts4202]

strong words from an AUC flunkie...sure, we believe that you left AUC for a shady, unproven school, just because you wanted to live in Luton. right....

so, let me get this straight...these programs are not interested in me? the PD just has an afternoon to kill? i love how you st chris folks change the discussion from pertinent info (ie st chris has nothing special, nothing that other schools don't have) and pick out bits and pieces of my post to try to change the subject....no arrogance was intended, nor was there any **. i was simply showing that US clinical experience is not as essential as some would have you believe. helpful, yes. but, there are many, many situations in which excellent spots are open without a minute of US experience.

Awwwww, poor neil. he sure gets feisty when no one believes his rhetoric. LMAO

[TAFKA]

edited to remove text

[neilc]

auc flunkie? what'd you score on the step 1, neilc? do my 32 on the mcat or 251 on step 1 spell out auc flunkie to you? i transferred out 4th in my class...

but i believe "flunkie" - in addition to being misspelled - is a violation of tos...

try writing flunkey in your personal statement instead of flunkie and you'll quickly double those 4 hospitals that are banging down your door to 8...

well, if you transfered out 4th in your class from AUC to st chris, not only are you one of the .001% of transfers that i know of that were not failing, you also have poor judgement. leaving a school of AUC's track record for st chris is just foolish.

congrats on your step 1 score. it is great. too bad, even with that you can't work in CA, TX, NM, KS and prob no PA, TN, VT, CO, etc...step 1 scores are a small part of the deal, my man. it is a LOT easier to get over a low step 1 score than it is to get around a degree that is not well recognized.

[neilc]

Awwwww, poor neil. he sure gets feisty when no one believes his rhetoric. LMAO

awwwww....poor bts! he cannot back up any of his 3 claims from a few posts ago (ie, these special st chris sites, his ridiculous claim that it is impossible to have anyone show interest until oct/nov, and that good programs are somehow more firm on the US clinical requirements...) so he resorts to his old standard diversionary tactics.

i use valid info from personal experience to show that a lot of what you say is incorrect. you make stupid claims, and then divert when you can't back them up. hmmm....no wonder you felt sorry for old s&a getting that dude in trouble. he probably reminded you of when you used to spout off ** about st chris and everybody started calling the NJ boards and the GMC. you hate it when your ** gets exposed, and resort to diversion. nice try.

[TAFKA]

edited to remove text

[neilc]

removed because neilc is a troll

boy, you sure showed me...!
;)

so, here is the MO for st chris...make grandiose statements about st chris. when people offer evidence to show that the supposed benefits of st chris are really just standard med school features attached to a less valuable degree, attack the person and divert from the topic. then, when confronted with this, resort to name calling and run away.

glad to see you guys are up to your old tricks. go st chris!

[bts4202]

Grandiose statements???? ahahahahahahaha... OHHHH G-D! I guess we missed the "programs are all calling me out of the blue and begging me to come meet their PD's!!" Give me a break. Neil, your tactics are actually diversionary. You made an asinine claim, were called out on it and rather than just leave it alone, you start calling people flunkeys and saying ignorant things about st chris. You are a pillar of maturity.

I am done now, there is no point to talk to someone like you.

[neilc]

show me my asinine claim? i explained it carefully. it is ridiculous of you to try to manipulate my statement into some falsehood. i never said anything other than the fact that i had pd's contact me. i explained it a few posts back. sorry if it wasn't clear in the first post, but now it should be. so, instead of saying "oh yeah, i get it now" you hang on to your original misinterpretation.

i had no diversion at all. i numbered my response to your post, and posted specifically what i disagreed with. instead of responding in an intelligent manner, you chose to attempt to make my statement into something it wasn't. i explained it, and you refuse to accept it.

i am sure you are done now. an intelliegent rebuttal to you is to make a ** statement, then turn the topic to a personal issue, than to run away before you have to answer anything.

i think st chris should change over to a law school...the students are quite good at manipulation and distortion of the facts.

[neilc]

hahaha, man, u are too funny.

So what your saying is that hopsitals that you never rotated at nor turned in any application to, are calling you out of the blue cause they somehow heard of you and are begging you to come in so the PD's can meet you? And that, in fact, 4 hospitals have done this?? hahahahahahaha.

Oh wow, I needed that. If someone believes that, I have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you, its only slightly used.


i did not rotate at these hospitals. i did not turn in an ERAS application. however, they do have my CV, my LOR's, deans letter, and transcripts.

again, i never said they contacted me out of the blue. i said they went out of their way to contact me. what i meant by this was phone calls and/or email that did not originate from me. maybe i should have been more clear, like i was contacted after i showed interest. but, honestly, i didn't read it the way that you and **** did. sorry about the miscommunication.

so, does that explain it clear enough for you? sorry if i did not make it clear before....

so, now that is over...

the original points we were discussing...
1) st chris rotations...are you saying that st chris has special rotations that are somehow better than the other schools?
2) do you agree that programs can show interest outside of the oct/nov interview invite season?
3) in my experience, good programs also do not require US clinicals, as most of the programs that i have been in contact with are uni or uni affiliated community programs. is that acceptable for you?

basically, can you accept the contention that US clinicals can be helpful, but are far from neccesary for the majority of programs of any caliber out there? that is the original discussion....if you don't agree, please do give an example why. that is how discussion works, not via the attacks and harping you are attemtping to perpetuate here.

[ansgenius]

Another bts vs neilc thread. Is it August already?

[You're Fired!]

//////////

[DiscoDoc]

lol...
http://www.onceuponalife.com/forums/images/smilies/catfight.gif
:)

[Nebakanezer]

http://www.onceuponalife.com/forums/images/smilies/catfight.gif They should add that to the smiley list.

[AUCMD2006]

"1. Neilc, u do not know where st chris students rotate at"

i've been emailed by SC students that the reason that they aren't posted is that many are not green rotation sites

"You may be getting a lot of "Oh yes, you should apply to our program!!" But that means nothing"

Oh so this is kind of like when you guys are told how interesting it is that you are in a "brittish" school and how they thank their lucky stars you aren't a carib student?

"3. Community programs that have a 1 year US clinical requirement will usually waive it. However, more competitive places usually will not since they have a much larger pool of applicants to choose from."

agree, however if you are a citizen or resident with no language or visa issues waivers are fairly common supposedly.



finally the sc forum is entertaining again and at the same time the spartan grad gest outed.....too much

[TAFKA]

edited to remove text

[neilc]

lol...
http://www.onceuponalife.com/forums/images/smilies/catfight.gif
:)

that is a sweeet smiley. gotta love it. and appropriate too!

sorry about my part in this, but i got a bit pissy when i felt like my words were being manipulated simply to make me look bad and change the subject.

[neilc]

i don't know, neilc... maybe i wasted too much time reading textbooks and publishing journal articles when i should have been valuemd-ing like you, but i haven't had a single program director beg me to fly over for lunch. perhaps you could enlighten myself and other students who wasted their time reading textbooks what your secret is... why are these programs so interested in you?

again, ****, nobody is begging me to do anything. simply put, programs that i have sent my info to have asked me to visit. i am stoked about it, but i really don't think it is all that abnormal. my field is not super competitive, and i am a good applicant.

by the way, i have some research under my belt as well, awesome LOR's from US program directors (who have actually called some of these programs on my behalf), excellent grades, a great deans letter, tons of extracurriculars and a strong step 2 score. my step 1 is weak. but, as i am finding out, if you do well on step 2, most people will not even care about step 1.

i hope you can finally understand that i wasn't trying to claim that i am the highly recruited number 1 draft pick of this years IMG crop. i was simply pointing out that it IS possible to have programs interested in you at this point, and i do have a few. i still don't have a job, and who knows what will happen with whatever opportunities come (or don't come!) my way. but, bts called me a liar, and what i said was true. simple. this is my example. believe me, or don't, i really don't care. but, it is not the big deal that you guys are making it out to be. i truly hope that i just didn't communicate that well, and that i made it sound bigger than it was. if so, i apologize. i just hope you guys aren't simply trying to manufacture a way to make me look foolish. cause that would be weak, and would really say a lot.

good luck with you in your match.

[LJG]

Before choosing SCCOM I had spoken with Dr. B*yl* at Riverside. They first of all recommended that I attend SCCOM because they have several graduates in their residency programs and felt they were very well prepared and give preference to grads from SCCOM. Secondly, they stated that SCCOM offers US clinical rotations and that they and their affiliate hospitals would not consider any applicant who did not have any US clinical experience. This equates to a total of about 450 residency positions in the state of Ohio alone. They even said they would rather have their residency slots vacant than fill it with anyone who didn't have any US clinical training. They also had a very negative perspective on Caribbean grads even though we all know there are some good programs there that produced some good doc's.

FYI.

[teratos]

They also had a very negative perspective on Caribbean grads even though we all know there are some good programs there that produced some good doc's.

FYI.

OK, so they recommended that you go to a school that has been around for 3 years or so. At the same time, they have a very bad view of caribbean schools, many of which have been around for >20 years, and have very good reputations.....whose grads are department heads etc.??? That is absurd. You better go get advice from someone else. Not that I think SC is a bad place, but the crap some of you guys come up with is unbelieveable (literally)

[oldquack]

actually Teratos - that one is believable just because it is ohio. We have some good connections there at that hospital group. Im sure most of the other schools would have simular responses from hospitals they had good connections with.

And if you were a local in that specific area of the USA it would swing your decision, to which ever school they knew the Doctors from- AUC, St George, SABA whatever the case would be. It is unusual in that the hospital has mainly St Chris students rather than a mix of schools - but again I am sure that we all have one or two hospitals which are nearly exclusive.

It is unfortuate about the comment the director made about the Carribean schools, but as a non USA person I am used to it- I did my undergrad at one of the top European Universities and was amazed in the USA how few people had even heard of my university. Anything outside the USA is often an unknown to Americans expecially when you leave the really big cities and go more rural.

What I believe it highlights most is how important networking and making connections is - as the perception not reality is what we all have to fight as non American Educated Med students, and we are all going to hear crazy comments by residents and directors, sometimes in our favour and sometimes not.

As a final point, I ended up at St Chris, but it could have easily been at any of 10 other schools, that is why I try not to knock other schools as I could have been at that one- and I think overall the majority will produce good doctors, and what I see from other students is that we all seem to get about the same education, and most of the time rotate with at least 2 or 3 of the other schools, - in the end of the day 95% of what you learn is up to you.

[bts4202]

Before choosing SCCOM I had spoken with Dr. B*yl* at Riverside. They first of all recommended that I attend SCCOM because they have several graduates in their residency programs and felt they were very well prepared and give preference to grads from SCCOM. Secondly, they stated that SCCOM offers US clinical rotations and that they and their affiliate hospitals would not consider any applicant who did not have any US clinical experience. This equates to a total of about 450 residency positions in the state of Ohio alone. They even said they would rather have their residency slots vacant than fill it with anyone who didn't have any US clinical training. They also had a very negative perspective on Caribbean grads even though we all know there are some good programs there that produced some good doc's.

FYI.

There are a lot of students who have said they were told similar things over the years. Caribb grads refuse to believe that some people really do think this way... oh well.

[teratos]

There are a lot of students who have said they were told similar things over the years. Caribb grads refuse to believe that some people really do think this way... oh well.

I know that some do. I think looking at the big picture it is bad advice. You know i don't bash SC, BTS, so that is not my intention. I do try to call a spade a spade. G

[LJG]

OK, so they recommended that you go to a school that has been around for 3 years or so. At the same time, they have a very bad view of caribbean schools, many of which have been around for >20 years, and have very good reputations.....whose grads are department heads etc.??? That is absurd. You better go get advice from someone else. Not that I think SC is a bad place, but the crap some of you guys come up with is unbelieveable (literally)


Nor do I believe all Caribbean schools are bad. No one from these US programs looks at individual programs in the Caribbean. All Caribbean schools seemed to be grouped, you're from the Caribbean or not. I never heard anyone ask how long has your program been in existence, just what school do you attend? and, where is it located? I know this may be difficult to hear and I'm not putting down anyone or any program just repeating what was said to me from the director of a US program.

[teratos]

I never heard anyone ask how long has your program been in existence, just what school do you attend? and, where is it located? .

How many people have you interviewed? G

[AUCMD2006]

it probably is highly dependant on the school affiliation with the hospital. i know providence has a great relationship with SGU and AUC and so far teh only other foreign school i have seen is a person doing an elective from ross. i also know many faculty from auc here as well as residents.

"They even said they would rather have their residency slots vacant than fill it with anyone who didn't have any US clinical training."

i think this maybe taken out of context a bit since its probably meant more to exclude people that don't speak english as a first language or need a visa since i have often heard of grads who are citizens, from various schools, not just carib, get waivers but again could be true, i've only been to two hospitals.

as far as ****, it doesn't matter of he was 4th or 400th or if is bloating his scores or not. his impression is that SC is a better fit for him. i think over all though schools like SC probably shouldn't be first choice for most people because the few limitations it has on practice location and the possibility of more issues later on, regardless of how great living in the uk is. on the same token who is anyone else to tell a person that they can or can't try med school? i mean what is the difference between someone who got a 2.7 and gets in to auc and some with a 2.4 who doesn't? in the end the standardized test weeds out most who probably shouldn't make it anyway right?

so can we stop all the fighting?
can we agree that there are schools that are a better fit for some?
can we agree that, if possible, one should try to get schools with as little obstacles as possible? begining with US MD/DO and working your way down based on limitations on scope of practice not pass rates and admission b/c those are sunjective?

in the end the goal is the same and i think as long as prospective students get a view from both sides, even if extremes, they can ask more questions and schools that arte doing well will survive and others will fizzle out