NYCOM of SGU

[Manhattan 1]

I have been accepted into SGU for Jan 2004 and NYCOM (an osteopathic school in New York) for Aug 2003. Which one would you choose? Please be as specific as possible as to your reasons. Thank you.

[Andrew21]

Here's the deal. What do you want to be? IM? Family practice? Sugery? DOs and MDs from SGU get all of these fields. How much do you want to pay to go to school? SGU is quite expensive. How much is it for the DO school? Also, if you stay in the states, are you eligible for any gov't scholarhips? Any armed services agreements (tuition paid for 4 years duty or something like that)? Finally, do you care what your initials are? Does MD or DO make a big difference to you? It desn't to most patients. This debate has been had many times before to,o, so you may want to search fro th thread. There are lots of opinions. Good luck

Andy

[ms4sgu]

After rotating with dozens of nycom students and meeting a couple of dozen more on interviews I have to say that we are pretty much on the same level.. the 'top' of the 'bottom' of the food chain. If you have to make this choice ask yourself 1 question.. would you rather live in relative civilization on long island and graduate as a DO or brave the savage jungles of grenada and graduate as an MD? Ultimately where you wind up will depend more on you, but I really dont see the choice of school making any difference in the final equation.

[yeaale]

Hi, I had to make exactly the same decision as you did so I understand what you are going through. I agree with pretty much everything the two previous posters wrote. I had to ask myself many similar questions and weigh the pros and cons of each school in addition to wheer I wanted to be a DO or a Foreign MD. People love to argue which is better and I've certainly have had a good time seing how charged up people get over the issue. Bottom line as I see it don't even worry about all that. Either route will ultimately let you become a doc. The key here is you. Where do you think you will do the best? What school do you see yourself thriving at? That will be much more important than what initials you have after your name etc.. For me in the end what it took was visiting SGU. After doing so I knew the place was for me. I got a good feeling from the school and I certainly saw myself doing well there opposed to NYCOM. I just didn't get a good feeling from the place, the students I met that day didn't seem do like it that much but that is just the impression I got. There were many other factors the caused me to believe I wouldn't do as well there but they are personal to me and might not apply to you so really figure what you want from a school that will enable you to do well and use those factors in your decision. Either way though you're on your way so congrats and good luck.

[sgudoctor]

The students that I've met from NYCOM were all very nice. They seem to be very capable in their work.

My opinion is that it is always better to stay with a US based school whether it's DO or MD. Coming from SGU you ALWAYS be labelled a foreign medical graduate (FMG). That is not the case if you're a DO. I thought it was better to be an MD so I never applied to DO school. Now, I wish I had. Being a DO is better than being an FMG any way you slice the cake. Educational quality is comparable. Residency opportunities is not.

DOs have MORE residency choices than FMGs. You can apply for both allopathic and osteopathic residency programs. Therefore more choices = better matched. Consider this especially if your are considering a competitive field in medicine. You will have MORE options as a DO.

Best wishes.

[xuimod]

Thanks all and take care.

[medic]

A bit superficial, but I want an MD next to my name, not a DO. I worked with excellent DOs from NYCOM so the education is pretty good. NO ONE asked me anything EVER about my MD, DOs get asked repeatedly "what's a DO". I hate that! Other than that, if you can afford SGU, go there. It's an experience you will NEVER have the opportunity to have again. With an MD, if your USMLE scores are very good you can get residencies at places that DOs do not even dream about, simply because most places do not hire DOs for Residency.
NYCOM is an excellent school, however.

[stephew]

I have to take issue with this notion as expressed above:

"it is always better to stay with a US based school whether it's DO or MD. Coming from SGU you ALWAYS be labelled a foreign medical graduate (FMG). That is not the case if you're a DO. You will have MORE options as a DO. "


point 1) If you go DO or IMG you are someone in the eyes of PDs everywhere who failed to get into a us allopath school. Spare me the exceptional individuals who go DO for philosophical reasons and Ill spare you the link of the pro golfer who chose an IMG school over a US allopathic school. PDs have their own pet preferences; some like DOs, some like sgu students and some will pick some other group they are more comforatble with. but do not fool yourself: DO and IMG are seen as fairly equal in the eyes of PDs: i.e. you didnt get into medical school in the US

2) more options as DO. patently not true. It used to be DOs had more choices with regard to ER and ortho. Its not at all true for ER these days; as for ortho, I'm honestly ont sure. DO does have the advantage of some number of residency spots in competitive fields allocated for DOs only. But the vast vast majority of DOs are primary care docs. Coming from SGU (and Im only talking about sgu here as I dont know the senario as well for other schools) you certainly are not "behind" DOs in terms of opportunities in general. Check out placements of grads from all schools your interested in.

Ive nothing against the DO pathway and its as viable as the choice of going to a good offshore school. I also agree that one's concern of having "MD" on their jacket over "DO" is also picking the wrong fight; that in and of itself is a poor way to choose one's destiny. But the two points above are ones that I'm dismayed always to see expressed as experience and discussion in the resident candidacy process have taught me is not accurate in my neck of the woods (NE US) at least. (See point about PD biases above).

[John Madden MD]

I agree with much that has already been said about choosing to go to an Osteopathic program vs SGUSOM. The only thing I can add is where do you want to practice? DO's are not readily accepted in some regions of the US. Here in Delaware, they are readily acccepted, but many patients still ask what a DO is of my osteopathic colleagues. SOme states require an additional year of residency if you want to sit for the DO boards, although this is becoming less common. SGU grads are licensed in every state. While DO's have their own residency programs, they are also eligible to enter some allopathic programs - I've had a few in my EM residency and they were very good.

The bottom line is you'll be a doc. ALl the best in whatever you decide.

John Madden

[Manhattan 1]

Thanks to all of you for your helpful replies. I appreciate you all caring enough to share your thoughts. After showing an MD resident the 2003 Match lists for NYCOM (the osteopathic school) and SGU, I was surprised to learn that he felt one for NYCOM was actually stronger. As an MD, he was pretty surprised too. However, 47% of the NYCOM students were unable to enter into an allopathic residency. Trust me I know, NYCOM sent their 2003 match list to me in a PDF format and I entered each one myself into an Excel spreadsheet to come to that 47% number.

What worries me about SGU is that while they accept about 300 students per term, that's 600+ per graduating class, only about 350 entries are on their 2003 match list. Yeah, I pulled that list off of the SGU website and plugged it into an Excel spreadsheet too. Where did all of the other SGU student's go?

[Nimitt]

These list are usually incomplete because students have to call in and tell the school where they have matched. The school puts out about 500 grads or so and from what I have heard almost all get matched.
Maybe Dr. Madden can shed some light on this question.

Nimitt
3rd year

[stephew]

Basically, sometimes multiple students go to one hospital and so not all stendents appear accounted for; and as Nimmit mentioned, sgu hasn'tbeen great at getting all students to reply as to where they are going to go. Traditionally the attrition rate has been rather low but since Ive not heard new numbers for a while, perhaps Dr Madden can enlighten us if he pops up here again.
steph

[John Madden MD]

Sorry this has taken so long to reply, but as an emergency physician I work strange hours and just finished a run of 7PM-3AM shifts and had to catch up on a bunch of things. Steph and others are correct- with the class size now in the 250 range, the grad list seems "abbreviated." (How's that for administrative-speak!) There are multiple reasons; 1) not all graduates tell us where they are going, 2) some tell us but ask us not to post them, 3) some students do actually flunk out or 4) transfer and 5) those that the Office of Career Guidance works very hard with are those that due to multiple attempts on Step 1 or 2 with low grades just can't get a residency! With each graduating class we have a number of students who scramble and ultimately appear on the list, but there are some, usually < 10 who don't find a residency. SGUSOM only allows a maximum of 3 attempts on Step 1; if you opt to stay in school, all clinical rotations are in the UK and you attempt Step 1 after graduation. Which means it is usually a year or 2 after graduation that you pass the Steps and get through the CSA. Now it has taken you 5 -6 years to get done with med school, assuming you took time off to try Step 1 3 times, you graduated med school 2 years ago and are now applying for a residency. If you were a program director, would you take this student or one who did med school in 4 years, passed all the steps on their first try, etc....

[stephew]

as ive mentioned before, ive always been annoyed that sgu underrepresents where our grads go for residency; for example you wont find me in the 1999 list as either going into rad onc (a very competitive speciality) or johns hopkins but rather IM at syracuse- true- that's where i did my prelim year. But my RESIDENCY isnt listed there. They are trying to rectify this but your MD friend may have been undewhelmed by the list from sgu he saw for this reason.

[BIGOSUFAN]

"5) those that the Office of Career Guidance works very hard with are those that due to multiple attempts on Step 1 or 2 with low grades just can't get a residency! With each graduating class we have a number of students who scramble and ultimately appear on the list, but there are some, usually < 10 who don't find a residency. "

Dr. Madden, do these students usually go through the match the next year or do they never get a residency?

[John Madden MD]

The OCG is only a few years old. SGUSOM changed its way of counselling when the OCG wqas formed and if a student has a low GPA and has failed Step 1 two or three times, it is time for a reality check. Perhaps the student is not cut out to be a physician and perhaps a career as a PA might be a more suitable. Counselling has made the number of grads having difficulty decrease, but we still have some. A few of these grads are seeking more difficult residencies, like EM or Surgery despite having taken Step 1 3 times and then just passing it. They are then surprised when they are not invited to an interview. We counsel them and they may alter their career goal to a more likely residency which is less difficult to obtain, such as Peds or Psych and then reapply the following year in the match or scramble.

John