DOES ANYONE WANT TO CHALLANGE CA MED Board?

[CA advocate]

Hi All,
I am planning to fight Ca Board. I am interested in hearing from thoese that also want to pursue this seriously. PM me.

[ANGRYWOLF]

How ?

[mlfone]

Ca advocate,

I don't think a single one of the women weighs over 150 lbs. and the guys all look pretty soft, too. I think you could probably take them if you fought one or maybe two at a time. Just remember to keep your hands up and don't let any of them get behind you. You should maybe spend a month or two in the gym to build up your endurance and then I know you'd do just fine.

mlfone

[ASIANDOC]

I think before any legal actions ,seek an opinion of a lawyer and if there is a chance and you are spartan grad then contact about 100 licensed practicing alumni specifically those who are faculty as we speak in Columbia,Baylor,Harvard,all award winnings,etc ,second,seek a person who has done this before,I believe Jonny cochran was the best for this[fought discriminations by LAPD for yrs]but sadly he passed away lasy week,one other lawyer who is expert in civil rights and constitution is Mr
Berkowitz from Boston] but also the lawyer who won the doctor from Spartan at OK supreme court Mr Frates contact him for e-mail/telephone advise.
[just my thoughts].
http://www.hartzoglaw.com/attorneys/frates.html

[ASIANDOC]

another team member with the OK case[healthcare lawyer representing practioners and hospitals],one member was CA licensed but I can't remember his name.
does not hurt to seek opinion and to know our rights as citizens not as foreign schools reps.
http://www.okhealthlawyer.com/

[Picard]

second,seek a person who has done this before,I believe Jonny cochran was the best for this

Unfortunately, I think the key word is "was"... He died of a brain tumor last week. Rumor has it, he admitted that OJ was guilty to a friend before he died.

P

[ASIANDOC]

CA advocate:
after reviewing above lawyers bios I believe the opinion of Ms Scoggin or Ms cross from scoggin and cross law firm would be helpful as a start and may lead you to the right path in CA. [if anything can be done or not]
PERSONAL OPINION

[tRmedic21]

...he admitted that OJ was guilty to a friend before he died.

There's a big surprise.

Somehow, I'm not feeling the loss all that strongly... :roll:

[PatPark]

CA Advocate: How many times do I have to explain this to Spartan students, graduates and sympathizers? The issue of Spartan's disapproval in 1985 was already reviewed by the court and dismissed. The court upheld the Board's disapproval of Spartan and told Spartan that the school could reapply for recognition in California. It's now 18 years later and Spartan officials have chosen not to reapply in California. That's Spartan's prerogative. However, if you are a Californian or if you would like to train in or practice in California, the burden is on you NOT TO ATTEND SPARTAN. There is no constitutional issue involved in the Board's treatment of foreign medical schools. California law is not written ambiguously, as Oklahoma's law was. There is no injustice or discrimination involved in California's medical school review process. Actually, the real injustice in offshore medical school education is the island governments' failure to stop the runaway growth of substandard schools by greedy entrepreneurs who defraud Americans. Caribbean history speaks for itself. California law attempts to protect you and your future patients from these schools. There are around 1,000 legitimate medical schools in the world that will qualify you for licensure in California. If you have the physical, mental and intellectual capabilities needed to practice medicine, you are welcome to enroll in one of these schools. Three new American medical schools have opened in the past few years, and American schools will soon increase their class sizes. You have legitimate choices available. If you choose to attend Spartan, you're not eligible for licensure in California, and no lawsuit is going to change this.

[mlfone]

Nicely put.

[teratos]

There is no bad time for a frivilous lawsuit....

[anencephalic]

Ca advocate,

I don't think a single one of the women weighs over 150 lbs. and the guys all look pretty soft, too. I think you could probably take them if you fought one or maybe two at a time. Just remember to keep your hands up and don't let any of them get behind you. You should maybe spend a month or two in the gym to build up your endurance and then I know you'd do just fine.

mlfone

Hmmmm...my $$$ is on the Cali Med Board!

Some people are so out of touch with reality...it must be nice.

Aloha,

[shockandawe]

There are around 1,000 legitimate medical schools in the world that will qualify you for licensure in California.

Ca Advocate,

I must agree with Ms Pat Parks, even though you passed all of your boards, completed your residency, are a licensed physician and have dedicated a good part of your life on helping people and patient care, you should not think that you are as qualified as the Saddam university or the University of Afgan or Ethiopia grad for CA approval. Therefore, I recommend that you apply to the University of Bangledesh or Siberia and get bribe all the professors to pass you in courses that you already passed, so that you can apply to CA and so that they will respect your awesome sixth world education.

Then again, since we both know that re-doing medical school at the California approved University of the Antartica or North Pole would be stupid and a waste of your time, time that you could be seeing patients and taking care of people in your current work, I recommend that you sued the crap out of them, just like Oklahoma. They will pay for their injustice. This is America, this isn't Cambodia. CA needs to be sued and they made an example of, just lik Oklahoma. And teratos, I'm sure that when Oklahoma was being sued, many told that grad that what he was doing would be frivilous. Look at him now, he is licensed in OK.

What CA is doing is unjust. You cannot stop someone who already has a license to practice medicine from obtaining a license in your state, no matter whether you approve or disapprove of their medical school. Like a drivers license. You should be able to use it in every state.

Not to mention the fact that CA approves grads from schools such as the University of Somalia, grads whom I wouldn't send my dog to... We do most, if not all of our rotations in the states, we learn the American system, we do our residencies in the states and we dedicate our lives to helping take care of people. Only to have the CA boards tell us that we are not as good as grads from the University of Kim's North Korea??? I do not think so. Soon they will be judged and no judge with half a brain is not going to laugh at them, when he or she sees the types of schools the CA boards approves. -s&a

[wcb22]

nahhh

pat and i, we're like this --||--

she was just kiddin' about all that

[Picard]

It's rather pathetic that shock still does not understand the issues at hand despite multiple explanations by various individuals including state medical board officials.

1) OK and CA are two completely separate cases. Folks who have read the OK case clearly understands that the two cases are different. There is NO constitutional issues in either OK or CA and that OK boards "loss" was based on ambiguous OK laws that gave OK board discretion on IMG's and the OK board did not have a clearly define administrative policy its dealings with IMG's. Again, NO constitutional issues were violated in OK. California law, on the other hand, is very, very clear in that it does not give CMB any statutory authority to review applications from unapproved schools. And since practice of medicine is a privilege, not a right, no constitutional challenges can take place. And as Ms. Park said, CA law has been challenged, by Spartan no less, and CA has prevailed. I guess the above logic is just too complicated for shock to understand.

2) Differences between pseudo American offshore schools vs true domicile foreign schools and why US wants to regulate offshore schools -- it's been discussed multiple times, again, too complicated for shock to understand

3) Being eligible to apply from true domicile schools does NOT equal automatic CA licensure. Graduates of 6th world medical schools must meet the same licensing/curriculum criteria as graduates of UCSF or UCLA in order to be licensed. Although CA does not formally inspect these schools, their graduates do not get a free ride and most are turned down due to lack of curriculum equivalency.

4) Shock kept naming places/universities he's never been to or heard of... again shock, name 50 graduates of these chicken farm school from ethiopia and anartica in California since you think they run rampet in the state.

5) In 4/04, shock stated he knew nothing of the Indian educational system. In 4/05, all of a sudden, he is an expert in Indian education...

Evidence, shock, evidence...

P

[shockandawe]

Picard,

edited for being a flame or something... -s&a

ps How about that Spartan Nobel Prize winner... Doesn't it make you feel so good just to know about him and his great achievements. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Picard]

Picard,

I did not have evidence that you are a psychopathic moron but after reading your last post, I realised that you are just that... -s&a


quoted for evidentiary purpose, in case shock decides to change it.

P

[pitstar]

There are around 1,000 legitimate medical schools in the world that will qualify you for licensure in California.

Ca Advocate,

Therefore, I recommend that you apply to the University of Bangledesh or Siberia and get bribe all the professors to pass you in courses that you already passed, so that you can apply to CA and so that they will respect your awesome sixth world education.



Please refrain from putting down these schools as the are legit ( and not paper-mills for US med school rejects). Cheers from the UK !!!

[shockandawe]

There are around 1,000 legitimate medical schools in the world that will qualify you for licensure in California.

Ca Advocate,

Therefore, I recommend that you apply to the University of Bangledesh or Siberia and get bribe all the professors to pass you in courses that you already passed, so that you can apply to CA and so that they will respect your awesome sixth world education.



Please refrain from putting down these schools as the are legit ( and not paper-mills for US med school rejects). Cheers from the UK !!!

You are right, they are not paper mills, they do not even have paper yet, they are still chicken farms. -s&a

[CA advocate]

One thing that ms. Pat has indicated is true, this case was over 20 yrs ago. The case was dismissed and Spartan had sued California. Spartan later for financial reasons dropped the case. There hasn't been a case b/w a successful physcian from Spartan going against California medical board. So sit still b/c it is definitly coming and as S&A puts it beautifully, a decent Judge will throw out this old and ridiculous regulation.

Again guys I am looking for dedicated individuals. PM me please.

[shockandawe]

To the CA state boards:

Your game will be over soon... You will not be able to stop good people from practicing in the state of California.

So sad, no more free caribbean vacations for you. -s&a

[anencephalic]

To the CA state boards:

Your game will be over soon... You will not be able to stop good people from practicing in the state of California. -s&a

....and it will be revealed for all the world to see that there is no such thing as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny (the Tooth Fairy, however, is very much real...).

Aloha,

[shockandawe]

To the CA state boards:

Your game will be over soon... You will not be able to stop good people from practicing in the state of California. -s&a

....and it will be revealed for all the world to see that there is no such thing as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny (the Tooth Fairy, however, is very much real...).

Aloha,

Exactly, just like Oklahoma... -s&a

[mlfone]

s&a,

That there was deep, my friend. No correlation whatsoever, but deep. Don't be afraid to dream the dream.

mlfone

[shockandawe]

s&a,

That there was deep, my friend. No correlation whatsoever, but deep. Don't be afraid to dream the dream.

mlfone

OK. ((stands for Oklahoma)) -s&a

[mlfone]

OK does not equal CA; there is no correlation.

mlfone

[CA advocate]

CA doesn't equal OK". But soon it will...
I am so sorry that some of you are even scared of this idea. Where does this animosity come from? :?:
_________________
formerly known as "California Board"

[mlfone]

Good luck, you'll need it. Animosity comes from watching others try to get something they haven't earned by claiming that they deserve it. It just rubs me the wrong way. Knock yourselves out.

mlfone

[neilc]

people keep going on and on about how since grads from certain schools can be licensed in some states, they should be able to work in cali...well, no. cali gets to decide who works in cali. period.

the other side of the coin....what is far more likely than california opening up the doors is that the other "easier" states will also close the doors to any school that is not approved in another state. i think all of us would agree that things are likely to be more difficult in the future.

so, what is the point of all this clamoring for CA if you are from a non-approved school? CA is only the begining of your problems! in the near future it is far, far more likely that you will be even more restricted in where you can practice...so, is the answer to sue pretty much every board? no. because that will make it even more obvious that somewhere, some board disapproves you, and will make it more likely that you will get yet another state to black ball you.

be reasonable. think logically. the idea is not to keep good doctors out. the idea is to assure the citizens of each state that a doctor has adequate education from a reasonable school before allowing them into practice. the solution is to either demand that your school comply, or take your business elsewhere.

all of this trumpet blasting will do zero good. the VAST majority of people out there will side with CA. the ONLY people that you have on your side are those that graduated or are attending disapproved schools. that should tell you that you are fighting an uphill battle. as a citizen of CA i support the efforts to protect the citizens. while i admit they are not perfect, it seems a very reasonable copromise. and, it also seems fair for the state to err on the side of patient protection, instead of potentially allowing some diploma mill docs in the state.

so, sue if you must. but, i hope you don't mind wasting a lot of time and money. and, be prepared for the other side effect of this tactic....your school will gain even more noteriety as being sub-standard in one state, which likely will backfire and lead to even more states locking you out.

i would love to see it, for humor sake. but, it would make life even harder for the actual good, hard working students out there that had the misfortune to make a bad choice. and that is something i would not like to see

[ASIANDOC]

I find it strange that so many individuals are very concerned about CA advocate monies,If CA advocate wants to spend $250 let him get one hour consult and no lawyer will waste time in very rediculous case,so if CA advocate is not approved to practice in CA he/she is entitiled and approved to freedom of speech and the right to seek legal advise.
Also the government official statment "enrepreneurs defraud Americans" is a copy right statment belong to "azkeptics",This is very concerning statment especially comming from state official when accusing disapproved schools with such allegations which indirectly includes all the top notch faculty listed with some good schools like SMU [faculty taking part of this],alleging that OK laws written "ambiguously",and in earlier statments alleging "courts thinks people with common sense do not go to disapproved schools.
I take such statments as personal insults because some of us are not stupid ,been practicing for 20 yrs in the US gaining the respect of everyone and collectively accusing everyone as part of this "defrauding"issues if unfair and not true.
I do not agree with rules applied to certain groups and I know the quality of many approved schools by personally visiting and working in such schools,one time I applied to one school they liked my CV but said "you are over qualified and we rather hire third world country clinicians for $2000/month than US BC faculty for $12000/month].
All such top notch academicians taking part of "defrauding American"!that is untrue and unfair allegations

I find it unusual when a legal action between CA and SMU going on now to see statments accusing disapproved schools owners with "defrauding Americans when such school gaining recognition everywhere.
I still think its cheaper to prepare for CA inspection but being a state official does not give anyone the right to go around insult people collectively.
Its sad to see so many underserved areas in the US lacking healthcare while some block BC highly qualified physicians from practice,a concern was recently expressed by the residency directors in Indiana to allow grads from not yet approved schools [the only other state rely of CA/NY reports]to serve the underserved[see panel discussion Indiana board Feb 05 Minutes],the residency director told the board they had more issues with US than carribean grads.,some board members in favor of a waiver[the discussion continues next month].

[personal opinion from deeply hurt and insulted alumni graduated before CA rules started/20 yrs US experience not a single incident].

[Picard]

Asiandoc,
For what it's worth, I do believe that board certification should be the great equalizer for people like you who have accomplished so much since your medical school days 20+ years ago. In this regard, I disagree with California's absolutism.

However, I do understand California's argument of "end does not justify the means" theory that has been proven feasible and legal in court challenges in various professions, not just medicine. I was merely pointing out that it's an uphill fight that California Advocate is very unlikely to win. It may be cheaper and faster to repeat medical school in a California approved school (however silly that sounds) rather than court battles with California, which will no doubt take longer than 4 years, and cost more.... and the result is extremely unlikely to be favorable to CA Advocate. That's all we are trying to say.

Best luck to you.

P

[AUCMD2006]

question? so you do med school over again in a cali approved school, does it mean you also have to do residency again or since you have already completed it does it mean you don't?

[mindprobe]

I would like to underscore a point that I believe has been underemphasized here: SPARTAN has made the choice NOT to reapply for CA approval. They have probably done this because they know that it would be an exercise in futility. When SPARTAN chooses to reapply, then they will be reevaluated on their current standing; not the one set forth in 1985.

Just remember that Spartan has also CHOSEN not to reapply for the Stafford Loan.

Saba is approved in both CA and NY now because they got their proverbial S&^T together and applied. It infuriates me that blame can be placed on CA when it is SPARTAN who is not meeting the standard. Who knows, there might be a day in the not-so-distant future that CA WILL be the USA alpha and omega as far as licensing requirements stand. In light of this, as you have stated many times s&a, there need to be major changes from the ground up.

[shockandawe]

Good luck, you'll need it. Animosity comes from watching others try to get something they haven't earned by claiming that they deserve it. It just rubs me the wrong way. Knock yourselves out.

mlfone

Who told you that we didn't earn it, mlfone??? Some of us worked our gluteal off at spartan, aced our boards, qualified for the top university residency programs in this nation, got licensed and help save peoples' live day in and day out. Each and every day, people put their lives in my hands. I work to the best of my abilities, highly dedicated to my patients. I am also an educator at one of the top medical schools in this nation. Who told you we didn't earn it? Where did you get that idea from? There are people who went to USA schools that would dream of having our skill and knowledge. We have grads from Spartan that are attendings and programs directors, award winning residents of the year and physicians of the year. We did this on our own. We more than earned it.

The medical school we graduated from does not mean crap. All you learn in medical school is the basic sciences for which everyone uses the same books and everyone takes the same boards and you do your clinical rotations which most of us at Spartan have done all of our rotations in the USA at USA hospitals. This whole thing of the CA boards preventing good doctors from practicing is total **!!!!!!! They deserve to be sued. It isn't just a matter of a couple of Spartan docs that want ot practice there, it is the principle of it. -s&a

[wolfvgang22]

Good luck with that. :roll:

[shockandawe]

question? so you do med school over again in a cali approved school, does it mean you also have to do residency again or since you have already completed it does it mean you don't?

Ask Pat Parks, who knows?? The whole thing is just bureaucratic backwards **!!!!!!! Hey, they need a job, right? What else are they going to do? -s&a

[ASIANDOC]

http://www.ai.org/serv/eventcal?PF=hpb-med&Clist=140&Elist=99050

As per Feb 04 Indiana medical board minutes it was stated that 2/3 of Indiana counties designated as underserved and Family medicine headed into crisis,the FP program directors requested the board to look at the issue and told them no body takes bad doctors,we select good doctors and train them,certify them as competent and more problems comming from US than carribeans,they are looking into proposal to present to the board for physicians of unapproved schools who proved to be competent by residency directors and educators[this proposal in progress.]

this is another perfect example of preventing good doctors to serve in any state acually harm patients and that is why the very very few states looking at CA never took its rules completely but added "if a doctor proved him/herself by training and BC then no one argue with a board certifying a doctor as expert in the field.

[ASIANDOC]

Feb 05 minutes not 04

[mlfone]

s&a,

You worked your gluteals off at a school that did not have CA approval, therefore you have not earned the privilege of working in CA. No one is saying that people are poor physicians, what is being said is that your schools don't/didn't meet CA standards. I'm sure that there are a ton of excellent docs that can't practice in CA. They chose where to attend school and are now living with the consequences. I don't see how that is a difficult thing to understand.

mlfone

[ANGRYWOLF]

the consequences might mean you don't get to practice anywhere in the US....is that a forseeable consequence ?

[wolfvgang22]

ANGRYWOLF makes a good point.
Sometimes I think that board certification would be a good barometer for who is good and who isn't. Why shouldn't any doctor who can get board certified in their specialty be good for licensure throughout the U.S.? We need a federal, national standard, and maybe that would be a good start?
Of course, it would take a lot of politicking to get federal standards in place, as it's politics that have made things the way they are now, mostly.

[ASIANDOC]

Except CA,every state in the US has some restrictions but all will license you if you are BC ,has clear other license ,and no malpractice history.CA is unfair for 2 reasons
1-even if you like myself graduated before the approval/disapproval started and holds double boards/ 20 yrs solid practice,still treats you based on education recieved 20 yrs ago[very rediculious],and they tell you why did you go to disapproved school?I yell back and say:no such disapproval was in place when I finished.how one like me harm patients when been in practice 20 yrs with thousands of appreciation letters from patients and perfect files?
2-they pick and choose who they want to evaluate from all international schools[not in America the country of equality and justice].
[I am just expressing opinion,NO interest to go to CA ever].

[mlfone]

I think that honoring board certification is an excellent proposal. Maybe someone could suggest that idea to a CA legislator. Politicians are always looking for a good, solid measure to endorse and this could be a winner. Setting things up that way does put the onus squarely on the individual and would make more work for the licensing board in CA. I'm sure that the boss would love to have more staff/clout. That would probably be a better angle to pursue than suing to get the unapproved schools accepted.

In any case, best of luck to you.

mlfone

[shockandawe]

s&a,

You worked your gluteals off at a school that did not have CA approval, therefore you have not earned the privilege of working in CA. No one is saying that people are poor physicians, what is being said is that your schools don't/didn't meet CA standards. I'm sure that there are a ton of excellent docs that can't practice in CA. They chose where to attend school and are now living with the consequences. I don't see how that is a difficult thing to understand.

mlfone

mlfone,

We are not arguing the existence of the law, we are arguing its injustice and we are foreseeing its weakness and eventual downfall.

Its like saying, although you are currently playing on the Detroit Pistons and although you are extremely good and although the LA Lakers really need and want you to play on their team, you are not allowed to play for the Lakers because in the state of California, people who played on high school teams that didn't have an indoor gym, are not allowed to play in California.

Yes, they will be sued and yes, they will lose because what they are doing is not only ridiculous but also it is harmful to their own state, to their own team. -s&a

[dt]

s&a, your warning looks good -- it matches with your id - shock and awe.


:wink:






(just thought I throw up this useless post to up my count...)

[shockandawe]

s&a, your warning looks good -- it matches with your id - shock and awe.


:wink:


I know.. Its like, don't mess with me, cause I'll mess you up... I'm a bad man.

They said that they would remove it, if I am a good boy by the time I reach 1,000 posts but I think I am gonna ask them to keep it for me, cause I do not want them to ruin my reputation of being a bad man. -s&a

ps Nice to here from you, dt, we all missed you...

[dt]

I know.. Its like, don't mess with me, cause I'll mess you up... I'm a bad man.

They said that they would remove it, if I am a good boy by the time I reach 1,000 posts but I think I am gonna ask them to keep it for me, cause I do not want them to ruin my reputation of being a bad man. -s&a

ps Nice to here from you, dt, we all missed you...


Thanks s&a. I have been busy.

But, as for you, you are a rebel for sure! I have, though, noticed that you are trying to get the admin to change. I think that if you keep at it, they just may.


Yes, keep that warning - it wears well with you.

[mlfone]

The last time I checked, you didn't need a license to play in the NBA. The parallel that you've drawn doesn't fit the situation. Kudos for creativity, though.

To me, it's more like CA is saying, "If your school is not approved, you can't get a license." :wink:

peace,

mlfone

[shockandawe]

To me, it's more like CA is saying, "If your school is not approved, you can't get a license." :wink:
mlfone

Exactly. And what we are saying is that is not right because if you have proven that you are good enough to play in the big leagues, you should be able to play in CA. I'm certain that most reasonable people will agree. In Oklahoma, even the supreme court judges agreed as well.

Board members and bureaucrats love restrictions and regulations that is how they keep their jobs. No matter how unfair, ridiculous and stupid their rules are, they depend on those regulations to make a living. The worse thing is when they get sued for their unjust actions. They do not want that... This is why the CA state boards are closely monitoring this thread. This time they have gone too far and any judge with 1/1000 of a brain that sees what they are doing is going to kick them out of court.

The CA boards are going to tell him/her, "But judge, we have to protect our citizens, we can't let people from low level schools practice in our state." And then the judge is going to look at their so-called approved list and he/she is going to see Saddam University, the Afgan college of medicine, the University of Zimbabwe, the University of Ethiopia then he/she is going to say "Get your buttocks out of my courtroom, you are wasting my time, energy and state money on this!!!" If only their citizens knew of what the state boards are doing... They would fire them all.

Most high school players do not make into the NBA and it really doesn't matter whether your high school was in Harlem or whether it was in Beverly Hills, what matters is that you can make it into the NBA and how you play the game. Mind you, even the greatest basketball player ever, Micheal Jordon was cut off his high school basketball team. Yet, arguable noone has ever played ball to his level. -s&a

[neilc]

basically, you are saying that CA should be forced to accept any other states standards for physician licensing. in simple terms, it would just mean that any fool could attend any school, and simply get a license in the most desperate state.

that is not likely to be supported by any court...

what is far, far more likely is that other states will voluntarily adopt the strict guidelines in place in other states.

argue away. there are good points, but the fact is that the line must be drawn somewhere. CA chooses to draw it at where the medical eduation took place. and, there is no excuse now for anyone to go to a non-approved school. if you do, you are screwed. it is a tough break for a lot of those that went to school before these regulations got tougher, but such is life. there are people that lose out with every decision, and while it is too bad, it is simply the way things are. CA is not going to overturn its laws for the few physicians that went to school pre-CA list.

i personally think challenging it would be a very foolish thing to do. first of all, it is not likely that you are going to get the courts to interfere in CA state decisions by making them accept other states licensing regs. second, i have yet to see how you can say the law is unfair. it has simple guidelines for a school to meet. if they are not met, no judge is going to say that you should be allowed to work in CA!!! and finally, the inevitible rejection will only cause you to have further negative publicity, and likely your grads will be scrutinized more heavily in ALL of the states.

[shockandawe]

basically, you are saying that CA should be forced to accept any other states standards for physician licensing.

No, they do not have to accept other states standards, they can maintain their own backwards standard. Just as each state has their own drivers license test and standards. However, they have to accept licensed physicans from other states, just as we accept drivers licenses from other states. The first point is that they cannot keep out licensed physicians, without a fight.

The second point is that their standard is flawed and they can and should be scrutinized for discriminating against certain schools and approving others which are run out of chicken farms, such as the University of Iran and Iraq and North Korea for no reason. They cannot justify it by saying that these off-shore schools are run by Americans and they are for Americans. There are loads of Iranian grads working in the state of CA. If the state of CA boards have a problem with the entrepeneurs that make up these schools, they shoudl not send their kids to these schools but they have no right in their affairs.

On the other hand, if a national standard is made, with regulations that all the states can abide by, this will force all the medical schools to meet a certain standard. So far, CA has failed in closing down one single unapproved school. So what they are doing has not and will not work. Basically, all they have done is to punish good, decent licensed graduates that could make excellent contributions to the CA state health care system. Thus, all they have really done is hurt their own citizens. -s&a

[neilc]

basically, you are saying that CA should be forced to accept any other states standards for physician licensing.

No, they do not have to accept other states standards, they can maintain their own backwards standard. Just as each state has their own drivers license test and standards. However, they have to accept licensed physicans from other states, just as we accept drivers licenses from other states.



how is what you are saying different than what i said??? if they are forced to accept physicians licensed in other states, then they are forced to accept that states standard. and, that is not going to happen. sorry.

i don't think the motive is to shut down schools. the motive is to make sure that physicians graduate from a school that has met basic standards. show me how the rules are set up to discriminate. it simply is not true.

the only reasons a school can't work in CA are as follows: they cannot pass an inspection, or they don't think they can and won't invite the team. the rules themselves are pretty basic and straightforward.

you are going to have a hard time convincing anyone that the rules are bad for people. i agree that there are likely quite a few docs that are locked out of CA that would be great to have....but, this is where CA decided to draw the line, and it is too bad that some good apples get thrown out with the bad...

the ONLY people that think the rules are bad are those that went to disapproved schools. that is not a group that has a lot of clout, sorry. the citizens will likely back the med board, as they will feel protected. the other docs will back it for many reasons (ie they don't want crappy docs, they want to keep the supply low to protect incomes, etc...). the courts will likely uphold the law because there is no discrimination (anyone can apply and be recognized) and because each state is responsible for deciding how to license it's own physicians.

basically, the few that got screwed by graduating before the rules and the students that now attend unapproved schools are bummed. but, other than being peeved, you are not getting anywhere. sure, you have a license and you want to be able to work in CA. too bad. CA makes its own rules, and does not have to accept another states license. too bad some of you picked an unapproved school. but, that is all on you. if you want to work in CA there are so many approved schools, to fit every budget and acceptance criteria, that there is no excuse for attending an unapproved one.

go ahead, sue the state. screw yourself and the students at your alma mater or current school even worse. i am looking forward to it.

[shockandawe]

Fortunately, this is a free country, neilc. And unlike places such as North Korea and Cambodia, state boards can be challenged when they unjustly so called "draw the line" and prevent good people from practicing what they were born to do.

The way you guys make the boards sound like a dictatorship, where they can make up any rules they want and everyone has to bow down to them like Gods is really disgusting. This is not a dictatorship and we are not living in the dark ages.

The medical schools you attend and the type of doctor you eventually become are unrelated. We have doctors from unapproved schools that are at the top of their professions. We have doctors from Harvard and Yale that are felons.

If state boards can just "draw the line" so reckless and unreasonably, then maybe they should just draw the line and not allow short people into the state. Although short people have proven that they can make as good a doctor as tall people. Well, I mean they are short. Lets just draw the line there. Everyone under 6 foot should be banned from practicing medicine in the state of CA. -s&a

[neilc]

well, show me how it is reckless and unjust...the state has its own standard. not accepting another states standard is not 'reckless and unjust'

show me one issue in the evaluation that you think is not fair.

the only complaint you have that holds any water is the fact that some schools (ie true domicile schools) are not evaluated. but, there is a very valid set of justifications for this: ie, they are not primarily designed to export docs to the US, they typically have their own accrediting bodies looking after them, and they are in the business of producing docs to take care of their own populations, which means that it is in the countries best interest to pay close attention to how these schools work.

CA does not have some unfair process. it has a set of expectations that a school should meet before it can send its grads to the US. these expectations are certainly no more rigorous than the LCME for the american schools. so, why on earth should CA be forced to accept grads from schools that may be INFERIOR to american schools???

i am sorry that you graduated from spartan. it is too bad that the school let you down. but, you should be aware of this by now: THE SCHOOL LET YOU DOWN!!! YOU PICKED IT, NOW YOU ARE STUCK WITH IT!!!!

people have to live with the consequences of their decisions. you have given not one single shred of evidence that CA is unfair or discriminatory. they simply demand that the doctors coming to this state come from a school that can prove it has the basic facilities and systems in place to educate physicians. if your school cannot demonstrate this, you have no business working in CA. or any state, for that matter.

it blows my mind that offshore grads think that there should be LESS oversight for them than there is for the US grads!! that makes no sense at all.

[neilc]

The medical schools you attend and the type of doctor you eventually become are unrelated. We have doctors from unapproved schools that are at the top of their professions. We have doctors from Harvard and Yale that are felons.



this is a pretty dumb line of reasoning....sure, there are exceptions, folks on each end of the extreme from EVERYWHERE...but, you cannot force CA to grant licenses to every grad of every international school simply because a few went on to do well in spite of where they came from.

the CA rules do not exist to protect the isolated great doctor that graduates from a substandard institution. the CA rules exist to protect the patients from the substandard docs. and, crappy schools are far more likely to produce crappy docs. you mention the grads of spartan that go on to yale and harvard. but, you leave out the vast number that cannot pass step 1. or that pass after 5 attempts. or that only graduate after transfering from 10 different schools because they fail out. harvard may have a few felons, but if you graduate harvard you are not likely to be a dunce. if you graduate from one of the unknown, unapproved carib schools, we have NO IDEA what the standards are or what kind of education you recieved. so, the rare good apples that made the mistake of picking a crappy school are screwed. i don't feel too bad about that.

[shockandawe]

why on earth should CA be forced to accept grads from schools that may be INFERIOR to american schools???


Neilc, sorry to burst your bumble but every single caribbean school is INFERIOR to the American schools including the all-mighty sgu with their 300+ students per class. You cannot compare one University of California school to any of the caribbean schools.

Why are CA boards unfair? Because the medical school you go to does not have anything to do with what kind of physician you are going to be. What determines what type of physician you will be? Dedication, passion, hard work and desire. You cannot buy these things and no medical school can just hand them to you.

It should not be left to the states to individually evaluate schools but to national standards, that all schools can follow. If there is a problem, it should be dealt with at the national level and preferably before the start of residency so that people are not mislead.

Imagine if everytime someone drove into a new state they had to have another license. Even worse, imagine having a license in one state and someone in another state telling you that you cannot get a license for their state because when you were a driving student, you used a nonstandard vehicle. The fact that they have all these different state licensures is ridiculous as it is... Please give me a break.. This whole thing is more about money and power.

Make one national guideline and stick with it. We can respect the individual state laws, such as in NY, where you are not allowed to turn right of the red signal, but to give someone a license in one state and ban them in another is total **!!!! -s&a

[shockandawe]

you leave out the vast number that cannot pass step 1. or that pass after 5 attempts. or that only graduate after transfering from 10 different schools because they fail out. harvard may have a few felons, but if you graduate harvard you are not likely to be a dunce.

Isn't it the job of the residency program directors and hospital committee to decide who is better qualified for the residency positions, the Spartan or Harvard grad that flunked 5 times or the successful one? -s&a

[mlfone]

s&a,

So far you have not given a single compelling reason for your argument. Repeating the same thing ten different ways doesn't change the basic facts.

If, as you propose, there are no standards; why go to school? I'm pretty sure that I could have passed the boards without enrolling in a med school. Kaplan, et al and my background in medicine would easily do the trick. I would then be just as qualified as you are according to your argument.

California has a simple set of requirements that any semi-respectable institution could easily meet. Your school has chosen not to meet the standard. That is not California's problem, its yours.

Laws are put in place to protect the public. Hospitals and residency PDs are hardly qualified to act as police or uphold standards. Hospitals are about the bottom line and will hire accordingly. We just recently had a huge scandal at a Northern CA hospital with physicians who were performing unnecessary cardiac procedures. The hospital absolutely knew what was going on and chose to go along. They ended up getting caught, Tenet's stock went into the tank, and the MD's involved are no longer practicing. Do you really feel that hospitals should be deciding who gets licensed? Give me a break!

I know what you will say in reply, so let me take care of that for you:

California is unfair, I am a good doctor, they will lose when we sue, I have an XXXXXX state driver's license and can operate a vehicle in CA,
CA is unfair, I should be able to practice wherever I want, CA is discriminating against me by requiring that schools meet standards, and last but not least; it isn't fair that I went to a school which didn't meet CA's standards, as CA shouldn't have any standards.

Repeat ad nauseum until someone caves in and agrees. Of course, you are free to restate your earlier repetitive arguments as you see fit.

For an interesting little exercise, why don't you see if you can get a lawyer to take your case on contingency.

mlfone

[pitstar]

Mr./MRs./******/******:

Before you present your arguement...please explain the "shock" and "awe" as no mass destructions of warfare were found. ******!!!


[edited by moderator for violation of TOS]

[ASIANDOC]

some officials stating that the owners of unapproved schools "defrauding Americans",all the unapproved schools maintain offices and major recruitments for Americans occurs in the USA,why the states DA office not closing such operations if they claim its "defrauding operations"?
I do agree that lots of greed and carelessness going on by the schools not seeking recognitions but look at the panel discussion of Indiana Feb 05 meeting and you will learn that preventing good doctors from serving will causes crisis in a state and the program directors have the ability to screen good from bad doctors[that is what they do for living].
selecting few schools to evaluate and leaving hundreds others never worked [it will work for a while] and rules must be applied on everyone,In my house you can't apply certain rules on me as double board certified 20 yrs experience one of America's best doctors[listed]and not on my sig. other below average education not board certified just because some state trusting Khoumani evaluation telling them we are the best!
Illinois used this before,dropped it,NM using this but taking good doctors,the FSMB has to be protecting good doctors because they are who testing such doctors,..........just treat people as per qualifications not where they get the very basic education and everyone is happy.
just an opinion from someone been practicing for yrs...and not interested in CA.practice[I have 5 more yrs only to retire/done it all and achieved all my dreams thanks to all states that treated me based on qualifications and achievements not country of graduation 20 yrs ago,or origin of MD degree that is very old and lost its color]

[sean]

Hi guys,

As this conversation seems to be going in circles (seems like its been going in circles for months :roll: ), let me expand the circle and throw out some food for thought. Personally, I think if s&a or others who are like minded want to start a lawsuit who are the rest of us to change their minds. One of s&a's arguments, which I tend to find some merit in, is that only English Language taught foreign med schools (with majority American students) seem to be singled out for the CA review process. neilc quoted below...


the only complaint you have that holds any water is the fact that some schools (ie true domicile schools) are not evaluated. but, there is a very valid set of justifications for this: ie, they are not primarily designed to export docs to the US, they typically have their own accrediting bodies looking after them, and they are in the business of producing docs to take care of their own populations, which means that it is in the countries best interest to pay close attention to how these schools work.


I see Neil's point however this is not as clear cut as it seems. Let me give an example. Fatima, a medical school in the Phillipines, is recognized by the Phillipine govt. Most of the students are Filipino citizens. However, let's say 20% are American citizens. Out of 200 per class, that is 40 students. These people will come in thorough the ECFMG process and are eligible for a CA license in spite of the fact that their school never went through the review process. That class of 40 is double the size of Spartan's classes. (My numbers are theoretical for the purpose of making my point.)
I realize that Fatima has a good reputation but one is relying on a 3rd world govt's ministry to police a school's substantial equivalence. Fatima is not an isolated example. Flinders in Australia and many schools in India are other examples of places a lot of Americans go to get medical educations. The schools teach in English and the students come back afterwards.

I am not saying that CA does not have a right to do what they are doing (I'm not a lawyer or a judge), but that doesn't necessarily make it the right way of doing things. Take care, S

(Disclaimer: Have all the licenses I need....and not interested in CA :wink: )

[shockandawe]

We just recently had a huge scandal at a Northern CA hospital with physicians who were performing unnecessary cardiac procedures. The hospital absolutely knew what was going on and chose to go along. They ended up getting caught, Tenet's stock went into the tank, and the MD's involved are no longer practicing.

Hmmm, were these American grads??? At least, they must have been "approved" school grads.

mlfone, how did your almighty CA state boards let them slip thru the cracks??? I guess it just don't matter, does it?? My point exactly. But, mlfone, thank you for making it for me... :wink:

CA_advocate, just hope that they hire someone like mlfone to be their defense attorney. -s&a

[ASIANDOC]

Sean I like your disclaimer.
Also The only reason I wish for CA approval is because it looks silly that I trained so many residents who currently practicing in CA and recommend them for practice to provide good care and I am not allowed to apply there otherwise I am well established here and respected here by everyone including the board and the private top med school I am affilated with.
in addition,many unapproved physicians helping improve healthcare in CA,the itv physician who is national speaker giving the latest update in cardiology,the Californians who come to Moffitt for CME's and listen to the head on gyn onco lectures,...etc

[stephew]

why on earth should CA be forced to accept grads from schools that may be INFERIOR to american schools???


Neilc, sorry to burst your bumble but every single caribbean school is INFERIOR to the American schools including the all-mighty sgu
I hate my bumble being burst.

-Steph from Almighty SGU.

[mlfone]

s&a,

Neither of the docs who were taken down graduated from a U.S. med school. Both were graduates of true domicile schools which, as has been pointed out to you, are different from the caribbean schools. The point that I was making is that hospitals are concerned with keeping the doors open, not with licensing people or playing policeman.

Ethics aren't dictated by whether or not the school you attended meets the CA licensing standard. The CA licensing standard is there to ensure that there is some measurable standard of quality in the education of off-shore docs. Attending a school that has been deemed subpar by CA is reason enough to not get a license to practice there. Sketchy character comes in all colors, shapes, sizes, and genders. There are extremes in any society. Holding them up as examples of the mainstream is disingenuous at best. If there is 1 stellar graduate out of every 100 graduates from a school that can't meet the standard , should they all be allowed to practice in CA? I don't think so. It wouldn't be fair to the citizens of CA. At least now there is some sort of standard.

CA-Advocate,

Good luck in your pending lawsuit. It should be interesting. I still think that you would be better served in the long run by encouraging your school to meet CA standards. If these schools can't meet CA standards, do you really think that a national standard will be any less damning?

To others who are considering a career in medicine and would like to practice in CA, go to an approved school. It really is that simple.

mlfone

[mlfone]

Just for some background on the scandal-apparently both of the docs were excellent clinicians, they just did procedures that weren't necessary. Having trouble peeing; you obviously need a mitral valve replacement. They would take people with no cardiac work-up whatsoever directly to the cath lab. It amazes me what people will do for money.

take it easy,

mlfone

[neilc]

Why are CA boards unfair? Because the medical school you go to does not have anything to do with what kind of physician you are going to be. What determines what type of physician you will be? Dedication, passion, hard work and desire. You cannot buy these things and no medical school can just hand them to you.

It should not be left to the states to individually evaluate schools but to national standards, that all schools can follow. If there is a problem, it should be dealt with at the national level and preferably before the start of residency so that people are not mislead.

Imagine if everytime someone drove into a new state they had to have another license. Even worse, imagine having a license in one state and someone in another state telling you that you cannot get a license for their state because when you were a driving student, you used a nonstandard vehicle. The fact that they have all these different state licensures is ridiculous as it is... Please give me a break.. This whole thing is more about money and power.



well, dedication, passion hard work and desire are fine and dandy. but, show me a way to verify that.

and, you go on and on about licensing at a national level. too bad for you, the US was not set up that way. the constitution disagrees with you.

personally, i think a drivers license is a very, very bad analogy. driving is a simple task, and any 16 year old punk can get one. it sounds like you want a medical license to be as easy to get as a drivers license....

again, you have no evidence. i can see why it bothers you. you are in practice, and i assume that you are a competent, caring physician. however, CA is still allowed to decide what it requires of physicians. oklahoma can't decide that for CA, nor can alaska, nor any other state. if they have less strict restrictions, that is fine. but, you cannot force those lax standards on another state.

[shockandawe]

My point, mlfone, is that those doctors were approved by the CA state boards, regardless of where they were from, they were from CA state boards approved schools. You will have corrupt doctors from everywhere. You cannot judge whether a person will be a caring or corrupt doctor by the school he/she graduated from... So then how are the CA state boards protecting their citizens? Are you saying that just because a person gratuated from a school in St. Lucia, they are necessarily corrupt???

If not, then how are they a danger? How is the CA state boards protecting their citizens? Are they saying that these people who did almost all of their rotations in the USA, learned the American system, passed their boards and completed their residency programs are somehow still not competent because a couple of CA bureaucrats didn't approve our school. The school is not the graduates.

In regard to you and neilc thinking that 1 in 1000 make it or 1 in 1000 are successful, you guys are dead wrong. My classmates are among the most sudccessful people I know.. Some of them are at the top of their professions. There are program directors, chairmans, leaders in this country from Spartan. Maybe it is because we didn't depend on anyone. Maybe it is because we were always put down in forums such as this, I do not know but I can tell you this, the school you go to, does not make you better than anyone else and just because you are from Harvard or anywhere on the planet that does not mean that you are not either corrupt or incompetent. I know this, because I train medical students from one of the top medical schools in this nation.

Please understand that I am not saying that a standard should not be made. But it needs to be handled at a national level such as by the Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB). Right now caribbean schools are struggling to figure out what to go by... The FSMB can set a standard that all the states will follow and you are either in or out and enough of this getting into one state, being licensed and fighting with another state.

In regard to CA Advocates lawsuit, even if the CA boards were to go to Spartan today and say "you are now approved". That would have no effect on CA Advocate because he graduated before the approval, when they were unapproved. Thus for a good citizen, doctor and professional, such as CA Advocate the only path to CA licensure is thru the courts. Very unfortunate, but the CA boards made it this way... Otherwise, he will have to go to an approved school such as Saddam University and start all over again... That, as you all know, would be very stupid and a waste of time but this is how the CA boards are handling things these days... This is how they are protecting their citizens from good doctors. -s&a

Disclaimer: Never wanted to be licensed in CA, nor care for that state, but I believe that what they are doing to people such as CA Advocate is unacceptable.

[shockandawe]

it looks silly that I trained so many residents who currently practicing in CA and recommend them for practice to provide good care and I am not allowed to apply

Very ironic isn't it??? But we are unapproved and since we trained them, then does that make them unapproved too? :D

I wonder what any judge who sees this case is going to think about that? Very comical. -s&a

[wolfvgang22]

this is my favorite thread of all time....zzzzz

[shockandawe]

this is my favorite thread of all time....zzzzz

You're just dying to get to 2,500, aren't you wolfy?? You'll get there soon. I'm rooting for you. -s&a

[CA advocate]

To Neilc and the the rest of the foreign grads that think they are superior,


Listen the whole thing is a joke!! If CA said that we have a standard policy for foreign graduates and we evaluate all the medical schools and we have very similar standards and policy and they travel to all the countries they have physicians from and do the same leve of evaluation, then yes, I would believe this was a fair process.

But what they are doing is DISCRIMINATION.

FSMB Federation of State Medical Board has been around prior to them and they have standardized policies and regulations where every foreign grad is treated equally. This should be the model.

As, for peoples' comments about grads from these disapproved schools not passing their steps and repeating it 5 times. Well, this happens with all medical schools and thats why you have to pass your steps and some states have the rule of the 3 attempts. So please argue logically.

I have American graduates whom when they hear this injustice have a blank look and say "it's discimination" and here we have foreign grads with similar experiences saying "oh CA can do this, just play their games", PLEASE,....

We are treating Americans in other states, we are evaluated by the same process and many of us teach the future physicans whom some end up in CA and we are1 given such a different treatment from the rest of the foreign grads?

The school may have not applied for many different reasons, we have no control on their decisions. Many of us entered the school prior to even knowing these ridicolous laws existed and if people can recall, internet is only few years old, so many relied on the WHO list of medical schools.

The fact of the manner remains the job of the State medical board is to protect patients .However, CA board judges and bullies. Sorry it's time to stand up to such bullies and don't let weak characters scare you in to believing injustice.

Many have sent me private messages and we are on our way, but I need more dedicated individuals.

[pitstar]

lets see...20 year old cadeavers are the norm, right ? Sorry, only virtual anatomy at Spartan. Hope I can treat a virtual patient. Cheers from the UK.

[shockandawe]

lets see...20 year old cadeavers are the norm, right ? Sorry, only virtual anatomy at Spartan. Hope I can treat a virtual patient. Cheers from the UK.

Actually, I heard that, at Spartan, they disect live people... -s&a

[Picard]

Hi CA Advocate,
As I have saib before both above and in our PM's, I do not necessary agree with California's absolutism in dealing with offshore IMG's, but I understand their reasoning. I don't feel "superior" to Spartan grads, that's not why I'm here. But there are quite a few myths here that are being perpetuated, which is doing disservice to potential students...

FSMB Federation of State Medical Board has been around prior to them and they have standardized policies and regulations where every foreign grad is treated equally. This should be the model.

FSMB does NOT currently have any policies or standards on IMG's. FSMB is NOT an accreditation body and does NOT currently "regulate" foreign grads. This statement is blatanly untrue.

Listen the whole thing is a joke!! If CA said that we have a standard policy for foreign graduates and we evaluate all the medical schools and we have very similar standards and policy and they travel to all the countries they have physicians from and do the same leve of evaluation, then yes, I would believe this was a fair process.
But what they are doing is DISCRIMINATION.
As we've discussed multiple times before, this statement shows lack of understanding in the legal definition of discrimination. You are not being "discriminated" against based on a legally protected situation -- race, gender, sexual orientation... etc, things that you have no control over. Education/licensure is a privilege, just like driving or being a hairdressor. You had a choice. The fact that students at Spartan may feel they didn't have a choice because of XYZ (grades, money... etc) is NOT a legally protected clause. So, your claim of discrimination has no legal basis. And, although I agree that board certification ought to be the equalizer for IMG's, the fact is that "end does not justify the means" has been a try and true principle in our legal system. Your entire argument is based on the premise that you are board certified and that shows competency. I don't dispute that. But, licensure and board certification are two completely separate issues. There are plenty of "board certified doctors" who are denied licensure for a variety of reasons, having gone to an unapproved medical school is just one of them.
To take your example to the extreme, let's say that there's an internet school that grants veterarians MD degrees in 3 months of "intensive USMLE prep", and that person happens to slip through residency and passed the written FP board exam should be allowed to be licensed as an MD based solely on his/her FP board certification? I don't think so.
Many of us entered the school prior to even knowing these ridicolous laws existed and if people can recall, internet is only few years old, so many relied on the WHO list of medical schools.

This is a silly excuse. Ignorance of the law does NOT justify breaking it. The law has been around since 1985. It's not a mystry. It's YOUR responsiblity to do your homework and find out licensing laws. The fact that internet has only been around for a few years is a silly excuse. This statement shows aweful lack of personal responsiblity. Are you saying that a convicted child molester from Africa who molested kids in 1990 should claim innocence because internet did not exist back in 1990 and he didn't think it was illegal to have sex with a 12 year old because it was commonly done in sub-saharan Africa? Utterly **.

I understand your disappointment and wish you the best. The simple fact is, you are barking up the wrong tree. I've had this exact similar discussions with many SABA grads in the mid-to-late 1990's when they were promised California approval prior to graduation. Many have contemplated legal actions... but everyone of them came to the same conclusion after talking in details with attorneys familiar with California licensing laws -- it's so well written there is no chance they will win. It's been tried before. You are just putting out false hopes. I would encourage you to educate yourself about the difference between pseudo American offshore schools vs true domicile foreign schools and why the line was drawn there...

P

[CA advocate]

Picard,
It just seems that your argument is more about regulations. It is not upholding the logic of these procedures. The California medical board is not protecting it's people. It has become a judge and has taken the role of prosecuting and picking and choosing.


Referring to Oxford dictionary, Discriminate means "make or see a distinction, treat favourably or unfavourably."...

and be sure that CA medical board is doing such. How come other medical schools in other locations of the world haven't been evaluated? They are also foreign grads!!!

Your comparison of a sex offender and a person going to medical school is very unfair, I am sorry but your power of abstraction is quite deficient it indicates how bias you really are in this case!

I guess we have to agree that we simply disagree!!

[shockandawe]

Picard,
How come other medical schools in other locations of the world haven't been evaluated? They are also foreign grads!!!


Picard,

According to mlfone, two of them did cardiac procedures on people that had urinary symptoms. Gotta love the CA state approval board. They're really doing a great job protecting their citizens.

They'd be lucky to have someone like CA Advocate taking care of their citizens. Glad that Picard and Neilc have CA approval, all the insults and joking aside, maybe you both would make really great doctors. Picard is already a doctor there from my understanding, but in order to punish the unapproved schools, the CA boards should not just limit themselves and hurt dedicated grads such as CA Advocate.

Spartan does not care about CA. CA Advocate and other successful grads do care... It's too late now to say that they should have gone to approved schools. They are here now, they are providing good patient care and they should be given a chance. Heck, they give chances to people from Saddam University and people who have replaced mitral valves for peeing problems. -s&a

[shockandawe]

Bottom line is what CA is trying to do, is punish the schools that do not invite them to do a site visit and comply with their rules and what is really happening is that they are punishing the proven grads which have made it against all odds and are now licensed and providing patient care in other states. The school does not care about CA. And not one single one of these schools has gone out of business because of lack of CA approval. In the end, who are they hurting? The qualified grads from unapproved schools and the CA citizens that desperately need their service.

Discriminating and not allowing qualified grads from unapproved schools that make it into CA residency programs to do a residency in the state of CA, is one thing, but to bannish proven licensed grads that are providing patient care day in and day out across the USA is unacceptable. Many of us, train individuals that go on to provide patient care to the citizens of CA. Come on, now... -s&a

[Picard]

Again, let me make my personal views very clear -- I do disagree with California's absolutism on this issue and believe that Board Certification should be the equalizer for graduates from schools like Spartan who has proven themselves despite their school of origin.

However, we are not talking about my personal views. We are talking about California regulations. And I understand WHY states like California has adopted this absolutism because of this "end does not justify the means" doctrine. It's a principle that has been upheld in courts across many issues, not just medical licensure. I'm not saying your view points are not valid. And yes, bad doctors come from all schools. Heck, I knew a moron from Yale who flunked Step III 2 times before passing it, flunked IM board more times than I care to keep track. And yes, he is licensed in California. And yes, by Asiandoc's description of his qualification, I'll take Asiandoc anyday, twice on Sundays, over this Yale moron. But unfortunately, that's NOT the point here. I guess I see the distinction between de-facto pseudo American offshore schools vs true domicile foreign schools and why US jurisdictions want to regulate offshore schools. I also understand why the line is drawn there for initial licensure. I do disagree on it's absolutism that keeps out those who proves themselves later on.

My point is, California's laws have been upheld again and again. Contrary to claims by you shock and others, it's not unconstitutional... that's a legal term that's been carelessly thrown around. And no, it does not discriminate in legal terms, despite what Oxford dictionary says. Oxford dictionary publisher does not write California Constitution or California Business and Professional Codes. And unfortunately, you do not see the distinctions.

What I also disagree with CA Advocate is his assertion that CA law is unfair simply because he and his friends "didn't know about it" because internet was not available at the time or that the law was too young. This shows serious lack of personal responsiblity that a physician ought to have if he really thinks this is a valid reason to obtain his license. The disapproval has been in the books since 1985, it's not a secret... claiming "I didn't know" is simply a show of lack of personal responsibility.

What I find distressing is that people like yourselves always place the entire blame on how "unfair" California is. How about some personal responsibilities here? The laws have been on the books. You should have known about it. And if California was such a big deal, why did you choose to go to an unapproved school anyways? You simply cannot point fingers when you should have known better in the first place... and no one from your side is owning up to that at all. If Spartan does not care about California, then you shouldn't have gone to Spartan if California was important to you. Crying foul afterwards shows lack of personal responsiblity despite how good of a doctor you may be. Two separate issues. Plenty of board certified competent doctors are denied licensure for other reasons.

P

[ASIANDOC]

CA ADVOCATE
may be the CA official is right and the laws made in such a way make it impossible to go around it,but of course if someone plan to sue an organization he would not ask such organization for their opinion but seeks neutral party opinion.I am not a lawyer but as a person with common sense[I know I was labled as a person with no common sense because I went to unapproved shool but trust me I attended school prior to such disapproval and courts should not include me in this catagory and boards/US educators already labled me as exceptional so I must know something],I think laws can change if you show favorisim of state/government to others [between 2 entities] such as 2 IMG's graduated from small schools,studied in English,pass rates are the same,just to compare and to show one school required site visit and the other given automatic approval and one applicant much more qualified than the other that may justice unfairness[especially many Iraqi stated in order to be qualified all you need is letter from Baath party leader/Iraq just an example/no offense to anyone]

we know from 1991-now US prevented all kind of technology entering Iraq and most qualified top notch Iraqi staff came to US under political escape,hospitals were understaffed,schools operated by unqualified staff,no new books,etc,we know many studied in English,and we know many came to US since 1991,the question :did anyone looked at such schools standards?and did any site visit done?If an Iraqi MD treated in a different ways and diffrent rules if they have exact same credentials and US exams?
Just my opinion as a consumer.

[pitstar]

Why challenge...pts come first remember and CA is only inforcing that. Cheers from the UK.

[CA advocate]

Why challenge...pts come first remember and CA is only inforcing that. Cheers from the UK.

Pitstar, it appears that you have difficulty following the logic behind this discussion. Patients do come first, no one has argued this. But, that's not what CA Board has based their regulations on. They are only focused on their discriminatory ways of treating foreign grads. So, before you say such things please look at the training levels and process each graduate needs to go through prior to being licensed as a physcian in this country.

Further the individual state medical Boards keep tract of each physcian so please don't let your bias towards Spartan make you miss the real issue here. Thanks!

[ASIANDOC]

Pitstar,Patient safety starts when assuring a doctor well trained in residency and passes his/her speciality boards[pt info :"board certification certifies a doctor is an expert in the fiels and screened vigorously by the board"],if pt safety is really the issue ALL grads from Sudan to Syria,from Iraq to liberia must go thru exact same process,no favors,no special rules just because you are USA citizen or grad of certain region law maker meets and create certain rules applied only to MINORITY of grads, I left practicing overseas due to corruptions and connections[remember corruptions and connections] are fact of life in many many countries to gain access to anything.Remember the 2C's in many countries overseas.

[pitstar]

Picard,
How come other medical schools in other locations of the world haven't been evaluated? They are also foreign grads!!!


Picard,

According to mlfone, two of them did cardiac procedures on people that had urinary symptoms. Gotta love the CA state approval board. They're really doing a great job protecting their citizens.

They'd be lucky to have someone like CA Advocate taking care of their citizens. Glad that Picard and Neilc have CA approval, all the insults and joking aside, maybe you both would make really great doctors. Picard is already a doctor there from my understanding, but in order to punish the unapproved schools, the CA boards should not just limit themselves and hurt dedicated grads such as CA Advocate.

Spartan does not care about CA. CA Advocate and other successful grads do care... It's too late now to say that they should have gone to approved schools. They are here now, they are providing good patient care and they should be given a chance. Heck, they give chances to people from Saddam University and people who have replaced mitral valves for peeing problems. -s&a

Siberia..great place to hide since no WMD found, Mr. *********.