FSMB

[MartyJannety]

I was reading some past posts and it appears that the FSMB will be meeting in april and they will discuss how to classify foreign med schools. Apparently they will be using evaluations by caribserv??? I can't remember the exact name. Anyways, it seems like this meeting will affect SMU accredation in about 7 states. Does any one have any other info on this?

[wolfvgang22]

you mean caricom?

[MartyJannety]

yes that is it

[mo5225md]

do you know what 7 states...and does this mean that california wont have its own criteria anymore? and does it mean that all foreign schools will be run on a national accredidation (which is smart)? and finally does it mean that it wont only be carib schools?

[jguru2]

Alaska, Connecticut, Colorado, Iowa, North Carolina, Ohio, and Oklahoma

[Picard]

Common wisdom (and take it for whatever it's worth) is that FSMB will come out with a positional statement that strongly recommends that Carib/offshore schools that are "pseudo US schools" be held to the same LCME standard required by US schools. And currently, the California approval process is the closest one that is in operation. So, the thinking is that at some point, the California list may go nation-wide. Who knows. The more "dangerous" possibility is what if ECFMG decides to adopt the FSMB recommendation and stop issuing ECFMG certs to "non-qualified" offshore schools? That would be a disaster overnight.

P

[teratos]

Common wisdom (and take it for whatever it's worth) is that FSMB will come out with a positional statement that strongly recommends that Carib/offshore schools that are "pseudo US schools" be held to the same LCME standard required by US schools. And currently, the California approval process is the closest one that is in operation. So, the thinking is that at some point, the California list may go nation-wide. Who knows. The more "dangerous" possibility is what if ECFMG decides to adopt the FSMB recommendation and stop issuing ECFMG certs to "non-qualified" offshore schools? That would be a disaster overnight.

P

that most certainly would be a disaster for many schools. I would bet they'll give a period of time for schools to get into compliance prior to the rules going into effect. It was only a matter of time before this happened. 10 or 15 years ago there were just a few schools, but it seems that a new one pops up every day. Seems that there are a lot of shady practices as well. It will be interesting to see some sort of position statement. In the era of a physician shortage, I will bet there won't be a blood bath. G

[smucayman]

Ok, from here on out, all postings like this can be referred to this reply. Going to a foreign medical school is a RISK!!! It's like gambling. You have no idea if your school's going to be credited in certain states when you get out, or if it'll still even be in buiseness by the time you graduate. If you're willing to take this risk, then welcome abroad. If not, keep trying to get into a U.S. school where you don't have to worry.

[MartyJannety]

That is a horrible way to approach foreign med school. It is a 200 K investment and people paying that money have a right to know what their future will be. No one goes to a caribbean school HOPING that they can practice afterwards. People only pay the 200K iwhen they KNOW they can practice afterwards in the states. Asking about the FSMB is absolutely relevant and this is topic that needs to be adressed

[doctermob]

Hi All,
Everything in life is a risk and most things are worth taking risk for. I see SMU in few years as becoming the best and nothing short of the best. No matter how terrible the storm could look, there must be a stillness.

I am in for the Summer class and no going back. I know what I want and that is what I am going for. SMU will surely make it to the top pretty soon and mark my words. I am not a prophet but I can see that. If going to SMU is a risk then it must be for a GOOD COURSE.

I see light at the end of the tunnel and am in. lets see how it goes and hopefully some day we will recall a day like this.
Long live SMU! Long live SMU students! Long live SMU administration! long live class of 2009!

[SMU_Information]

Well, if they go by California, then there would be a problem for SMU until California is resolved. If they go by the NCFMEA (whose stated purpose is to evaluate what foreign accreditation standards are comparable to the U.S.), then we would qualify. We'll have to wait and see which way it goes.

[ASIANDOC]

The FSMB will have impact in all states eventually,the 7 states that asked the FSMB to look at this matter did not have the proper resources to do it and this came in response to concerns that the carribean education not up to US standards and some are disapproved in few states,I believe the FSMB will use similar criteria used by CA and might put simple statement that might eliminate most carribean schools,this statment:
"A medical school must be in good standing with all State boards in USA"
If they use this criteria [which is reasonable to any anyone in the US] then most schools will not survive,If someone like me have everything and every board and wants to go to CA approved school not because I am stupid or want to waste my time and money but I have strong feeling of what is comming!
Again I hope I am wrong,At least SMU trying to get everything for their students and that is good.

[teratos]

I would think that schools already established will be given time to meet the new criteria that are set forth. I don't believe that a bunch of schools will be forced to close suddenly. There would be a lot of very angry US citizens who have taken out a lot of loans, and been through great personal sacrifice to go to med school in the caribbean if most of the schools closed down. I think we will have some much needed regualtion of caribbean schools.

Caribbean grads fill a needed space in the US medical industry. It is a place where US citizens can become MDs and practice in the US. There are a lot of patients who want to see only doctors from the US, and wouldn't be happy with an influx of people from other countries. US schools simply don't have the capacity to turn out as many docs as are needed. G

[Miklos]

I was reading some past posts and it appears that the FSMB will be meeting in april and they will discuss how to classify foreign med schools. Apparently they will be using evaluations by caribserv??? I can't remember the exact name. Anyways, it seems like this meeting will affect SMU accredation in about 7 states. Does any one have any other info on this?

I looked up the draft agenda for their annual meeting.

http://www.fsmb.org/education/AM_Pages/AM_2005/DraftAgenda.pdf

I could not find anything there regarding this.

If someone could post info on this (e.g. links, confirmation) I would be thankful.

azskeptic, if you are following this thread, what do you know?

[ASIANDOC]

I sure hope you are right teratos.When CA,IN,and TX closed its door suddenly they really did not care about angry US citizens and that does not prevent others doing the same . As of now CA prefer to take borderline [barely passed],visa holder MD from third world country than award-winning US citizen MD from Non approved school and they say "its the law".

[Picard]

Personally, I hope that existing schools will be given some leadway for compliance... unfortunately, I think I'm in the minority when it comes to sentiments of the US medical community. I think that well planned out new schools like SMU will find a way to comply and will survive this process... but I think many of the other newer schools will not, because they simply do not have the resources for compliance... and the window for compliance is UNLIKELY to be measured in years.

In one of a recent medical society meetings I attended, the prevailing opinion is that these newer offshore schools should not have been opened in the first place before they are ready to meet LCME standards like new US schools. Therefore, the sentiment is that these schools should not be allowed to accept new students until they meet compliance and the old students should given a year to find other arrangements (like the process when they close down a residency program.) Now, this is NOT me talking. This is the prevailing sentiment in the US medical communities in just about every meetings I've been to where IMG issues are discussed. Heck, in the not so distant past, there were a flurry of articles in NEJM, JAMA... etc that basically said that the US medical community is better off with true non-US IMG's from true domicile foreign schools rather than with offshore US-IMG's because these pseudo US schools have no standards and their students are US rejects..... Again, I disagree with majority of these views, but non-the-less these are the prevailing views of the US medical establishment and it's their ballpark we are trying to play in.

Now, I don't think practicing IMG's like myself, teratos, asiandocs... etc are trying to scare people with doomsday scenario. But what does send chills down our spine is how uninformed current students are, especially those in the weaker newer schools that have virtually no chance of meeting LCME standards in the near future. It's almost comical (and sad) to see how some of these students simply brush these issues off and say things like "who cares about California, it's just one state in the country," or "California can go @#$$% themselves because they are @#$#%$ and we will be fine," or my favorite, "...only people from SGU, Ross, AUC are making an issue of it." The sad truth is, only students from these weaker, newer schools are down playing the importance of California approval when the prevailing sentiments in the US medical community is the exact opposite... California is only the beginning of the larger issues of offshore school standards that will soon hit the fan...

Oh, as for physician shortages... have you noticed that many new DO schools have sprung up in the last few years? Now, some see them as the promising solution for increasing physician supply in the US...

P

[MartyJannety]

So from everything I've gathered, this April decision by the FSMB will be one of the most critical decisions in recent years regarding foreign med schools. While the decision will affect the 7 states, will it have any effect on other states such as Florida, Michigan, New York, etc?

[ASIANDOC]

The new committe formed by the FSMB met already once in Dec,they will report their findings in April and what I was told the recommendations will be out year end.

[LqdPls]

If off-shore medical schools would be held to the same standard in all 50 states as prescribed by California law, does this mean that St. Matthew's would be forced to close down, or would they be given a window of opportunity to comply? If such a window of compliance does exist then why hasn’t SMU already done everything in its power to fulfill the requirements set forth by the state of California? I realize that the destruction due to hurricanes last summer has hindered this process, but why wasn’t the school inspected and approved at the beginning of last summer or spring? Finally, is it possible that most of all politics and bureaucracy govern the process of accreditation, and not the quality of education and infrastructure found at some Caribbean medical schools? For example it is conceivable that if SMU received California approval the pool of applicants to Caribbean medical schools would swing dramatically in favor of SMU. If such an asymmetric polarity emerged, would this not pose a certain competitive threat to other Caribbean medical schools considering the attraction of quality of life found on Grand Cayman?

[doctermob]

LqdPls,
You are absolutely correct. I have no doubt in all u said 'cos one can tell that there are some element of foul play some where. It is in the light that SMU will definitely outcompete some long existed school.

Well, I understand that, that is man's deciison but with the help of GOD Almighty that diapproval will be reverted. It sounds silly but I see it come to pass!

I encourage SMU authourity, student and administrations to keep the faith. You are just few miles away from becoming the best and no authority shall be in your way. I see well trained and well informed doctors spring up from Cayman Island and SMU has come to stay.

Some schools are certainly behind what happened but it will not be long before the truth will be made known. The young shall grown and no doubt.
Long live SMU.
God will fight your course and you shall excel.

[shockandawe]

Common wisdom (and take it for whatever it's worth) is that FSMB will come out with a positional statement that strongly recommends that Carib/offshore schools that are "pseudo US schools" be held to the same LCME standard required by US schools. And currently, the California approval process is the closest one that is in operation. So, the thinking is that at some point, the California list may go nation-wide. Who knows. The more "dangerous" possibility is what if ECFMG decides to adopt the FSMB recommendation and stop issuing ECFMG certs to "non-qualified" offshore schools? That would be a disaster overnight.

P


Wouldn't you love to think so, Picard???

Spartan, St. James, St. Chris, etc are willing to tolerate losing a couple of states but losing all of them would mean an all out WAR!!!! We are talking about millions of student dollars lost and not to mention time and energy.

Truly, something needs to be done, the carib cannot be run like the wild, wild, west anymore, but they have to be fair. California is a very backwards state and I don't think that the FSMB will just go by the CA approval nonsense. If that was the case, then there would be no need for them to meet all this time, just go by the CA approval ** and take us out of our misery.

I do not believe that this will be the way things will play out. I'm not saying that things are not gonna get ugly, they will get ugly, but just not california ugly. That state is just too backwards. For God's sake their governor is the terminator... -s&a

[MartyJannety]

What exactly is the difference between reporting findings and making a recommendation. And again, will this affect other states like Michigan, Florida, New York, etc.?

[ASIANDOC]

FOR 20 YRS CA officials appeared on every interview they get[newspaper,TV..etc] and try to tell states they are right,Illinois followed with its on list in 85 then said wait a minute this is too unfair and dropped its list,and after 20 yrs only Indiana followed,New Mexico followed with fairness[if you qualified your welcome].Now after the CT article a very well planned agenda was put in place to change things and states are changing laws.

[LqdPls]

Here's a quote from an article that was actually covered on this forum a few years ago

Title:
Med Schools: Four That Flunk June 29, 2003 By JACK DOLAN And ANDREW JULIEN, Courant Staff Writers


"The schools - the Autonomous University of Guadalajara in Mexico, Howard University in Washington, Manila Central University in the Philippines and Meharry Medical College in Nashville - ranked at the bottom in separate analyses of three databases containing records of disciplinary actions against thousands of physicians across the United States."

I dont remember the details of this article but I think that it went on to suggest that some of the foreign graduates may not be held to the same "standards". The only problem with that theory is that two of the four medical schools, Howard and Meharry, are right here in the US.

Anyway, my original point was that not surprisingly all 4 are recognized by the state of California

[shockandawe]

Here's a quote from an article that was actually covered on this forum a few years ago

Title:
Med Schools: Four That Flunk June 29, 2003 By JACK DOLAN And ANDREW JULIEN, Courant Staff Writers


"The schools - the Autonomous University of Guadalajara in Mexico, Howard University in Washington, Manila Central University in the Philippines and Meharry Medical College in Nashville - ranked at the bottom in separate analyses of three databases containing records of disciplinary actions against thousands of physicians across the United States."

I dont remember the details of this article but I think that it went on to suggest that some of the foreign graduates may not be held to the same "standards". The only problem with that theory is that two of the four medical schools, Howard and Meharry, are right here in the US.

Anyway, my original point was that not surprisingly all 4 are recognized by the state of California

So much for your beloved California, Picard... -s&a

[teratos]

In that same article, if you look up the stats, a lot of the caribbean schools actually fare quite well in terms of disciplinary actions against grads. People attending school in the caribbean tend to be a bit older, more mature, and more motivated. G

[ASIANDOC]

I love America,I hate discrimination.

[teratos]

I love America,I hate discrimination.

America was built on discrimination. My Irish grandmother used to tell me stories of "Irish Need Not Apply" signs in store windows. People will always discriminate, we aren't too bad in the grand scheme of things. G

[ASIANDOC]

I did my duty and wrote to the FSMB my opinion towards unfairness of some state boards towards highly qualified carribean grads and being tired of repeated insults from some state officials taking advantage of every media opportunity to put carribean grads down so they have their media fame and collectively accusing all of us as underqualified when in fact some of us far better than most non carribean IMG's recognized by our medical societies as respected qualified physicians.Its time to form a union to fight in our behalf and to shut down the unfit schools that destroying everyone reputation.

[Siddman]

I did my duty and wrote to the FSMB my opinion towards unfairness of some state boards towards highly qualified carribean grads and being tired of repeated insults from some state officials taking advantage of every media opportunity to put carribean grads down so they have their media fame and collectively accusing all of us as underqualified when in fact some of us far better than most non carribean IMG's recognized by our medical societies as respected qualified physicians.Its time to form a union to fight in our behalf and to shut down the unfit schools that destroying everyone reputation.

I think there is a Union of IMG in USA and Canada.....but its just for the sake of it........


Siddman

[mo5225md]

why dont we send a petition from valuemd to the fsmb...if anyone is interested...please let me know...i will set one up through something...i need at least 50-100 ppl to sign it if we want to set it up. if anyone else has an idea..please let me know...i honestly think that until we speak out...we will have to sit back and take all that they throw at us.

[Jeep23Guy]

Hey,
I would be willing to sign a petition if you would like.

[LqdPls]

Count me in!!

[ASIANDOC]

I think that is a good idea.few state officials as well as individuals sending the FSMB as well as all boards directors negative articles and people trying to always put us down,rarley students or doctors raise their opinion and they always want schools to do the job when the voice of an individual citizen stronger than a foreign entity[called democracy].
I would suggest finding the right person to draft the right letter[the best could be an experience lawyer who used to serve as chief counsler for any state board and now in private practice/experience with this],it will be the voice of students,parents,and alumni asking for fair equal rules and treat us same way as others if we passed all exams and completed all training.

[teratos]

We know there are a lot of substandard med schools out there. There are a bunch of states that are getting together to look into the problem. I think a petition is a bad idea. First, you have a petition from the group affected. Won't carry a whole lot of weight. Secondly, at this point we have no idea what they are going to recommend, so what on earth are you going to protest? Thirdly, they may come up with guidelines that force schools to make changes which benefit students (that's you), why on earth would you petition that? ValueMD is not a political organization, it is for exchange of information. We should keep it that way. G

[ASIANDOC]

No petetion will help.just expressing opinion.when they say SGU,AUC banned in one state,when they say howard poor school,its ok to say we do not agree with you because SGU trained some of the best,and Howard doctors are excellent,its ok to say how would the board know if some applicants at other international schools not rejects belonging to Baath party of Saddam of Assad and they guaranteed place?....sharing ideas and opinion does not hurt

[azskeptic]

The FSMB will have impact in all states eventually,the 7 states that asked the FSMB to look at this matter did not have the proper resources to do it and this came in response to concerns that the carribean education not up to US standards and some are disapproved in few states,I believe the FSMB will use similar criteria used by CA and might put simple statement that might eliminate most carribean schools,this statment:
"A medical school must be in good standing with all State boards in USA"
If they use this criteria [which is reasonable to any anyone in the US] then most schools will not survive,If someone like me have everything and every board and wants to go to CA approved school not because I am stupid or want to waste my time and money but I have strong feeling of what is comming!
Again I hope I am wrong,At least SMU trying to get everything for their students and that is good. The request for a study was made by 7 states but will impact all states. FSMB represents all states,not just the 7. If I was a medical school owner I'd consider that a shot across the bow that they had better have their schools in a good understandable equivalent to a US school or a plan to reach it.

[teratos]

No petetion will help.just expressing opinion.when they say SGU,AUC banned in one state

They are OK in all 50 states. G

[ASIANDOC]

I know they are ok in 5o states but if someone tells us[like the CT author] they are not,we must response and say "sorry you are wrong".

[teratos]

I know they are ok in 5o states but if someone tells us[like the CT author] they are not,we must response and say "sorry you are wrong".

Absolutely. I think overall this is a good thing. A lot of caribbean schools have been getting away with offering grossly substandards products for far too long. G

[Siddman]

Absolutely. I think overall this is a good thing. A lot of caribbean schools have been getting away with offering grossly substandards products for far too long. G

I totally agree.......its time they start setting standards......


Siddman

[teratos]

The problem will arise if they are too harsh in their recommendations. If they set requirements impossibly high etc. I think it is possible some schools will close. I think it is more likely they will give existing schools time to get into compliance, maybe offering a "probationary" status to them.

Overall this is more than likely a good thing for students. With what a lot of these schools make, they will have to cut their profit margins to make needed changes, but none of the schools should have any difficulty coming up with capital for campus improvements, libraries etc. Before you circulate petitions, you better know what exactly it is you are petitioning. Let's kick back and wait to see what the recommendations are. We may all be pleasantly surprised. G

[SMU_Information]

I agree with teratos in that it is much too early to start talk about petitions and such. The FSMB plan is still very much in the early stages, and we will have to wait and see what they say. SMU has a 3 and 1 record with these things so far, so I feel confident we will meet whatever standards they come up with (and we are still working on getting to 4-0).

Could we perhaps move at least some of this thread to the State Licensing forum and continue the discussion there?

[Picard]

So much for your beloved California, Picard... -s&a
Again Shock is missing the big picture. The point is not California. The point is that FSMB is likely to recommend something similar to LCME-style accreditation process for offshore schools, and California's approval process comes closest to it now. So the California list may become the easy-way out for FSMB. The EVEN WORSE scenario for schools like Spartan and St. James is if FSMB recommends empowering either itself or ECFMG as the accreditation body and blanketly adopts LCME regulations overnight. And LCME standard are a bit harder to meet than California standard at present time. It will become a even tougher fight for schools like Spartan. You are better off if FSMB recommends California standard now rather than LCME standard... So again, it's not about California... it's about FSMB recommending LCME-style accreditation and the way it's going to recommend it.

As for petitions... I agree with Teratos that it's a bad idea. The national standard for offshore schools is a good thing in the big picture. It would lend legitamacy to offshore schools that are well run and deserve recognition. It would weed out substandard and unethical schools that shouldn't exist in their present forms to begin with. Besides, think about it, FSMB is NOT saying offshore schools shouldn't exist. It's saying that offshore schools ought to meet some minimum standards like all other US schools do since they (we) are pseudo US schools existing with the sole purpose of training "US rejects." And they (FSMB and state boards) have a very, very arguable merrit. In this regard, they (FSMB) has the upper hand and public support. Before newer/"substandard" school students begin circulating petitions, we better make sure these schools are able to meet these minimum standards... otherwise, the petition will only hurt these schools in the long run. And using the argument of board passage and residency training is not going to help because those are not the fundamental issues here. The the foundamental issue here is whether or not these substandard schools should exist in the first place.... and there is strong argument that they shouldn't exist in the first place to put graduates in tough spots. It's like the illegal alien issue -- some argue that illegal aliens pay taxes just like US citizens and should be afforded all the rights and benefits of citizenship... but the flip side of the issue is more foundamental than paying taxes, the popular sentiment is that these illegal aliens shouldn't be in our country in the first place... and paying taxes does not make their illegal entry into the country OK and should not be rewarded with benefits... Similar situation...

P

[azskeptic]

what will happen is that schools that can't meet the standards for the US will work harder at attracting students from India/Pakistan/Dubai/Saudi Arabia which has a pent up demand for places for students to study since they have more students than schools.

Already you are seeing schools setting up offices in India and working on recruiting.

The difference is that those students will have to go back to their countries to work.

[mo5225md]

does anyone know the exact date that fsmb is suppose to release its statement regarding the carib schools and its standards that they must follow?