ECFMG SAYS PHILIPPINES HAS THE BEST FOREIGN MED SCHOOLS

[asianTSwantsMD]

http://www.ecfmg.org/annuals/2002/certstan.html


LOOK AT THE DATA.

INDIA, DOMINICA, GRENADA, PAKISTAN, ANTILLES AND PHILIPPINES TOPPED THE LIST.


THREE COUNTRIES BELONG TO THE CARIBBEAN WHERE MOST OF THE STUDENTS AND PROFESSORS ARE FROM THE US. NOT REALLY FOREIGN.

INDIA AND PAKISTAN HAVE ALMOST A HUNDRED OF MED SCHOOLS COMBINED DUE TO THEIR POPULATION. THEY GRADUATE SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF MEDICAL STUDENTS A YEAR. THE NUMBER OF USMLE TAKERS ARE ALSO IN THOUSANDS.

PHILIPPINES? IT IS A SMALL COUNTRY WITH MORE OR LESS 20 MED SCHOOLS THAT GIVE ALMOST 2,000 MEDICAL DIPLOMAS A YEAR. LESS THAN 500 MEDICAL GRADUATES A YEAR TOOK USMLE. 1500 PLUS PASSED THE PHILIPPINE EXAM AND REMAINED IN THE PHILIPPINES TO PRACTICE ANNUALLY.

LOOK AT THE DATA:

200 PHILIPPINE GRADUATES PASSED USMLE AND GOT CERTIFIED BY ECFMG. 159 ARE LOCAL FILIPINOS. THE REST MUST BE A COMBO OF EAST ASIANS, FILIPINO AMERICANS, INDIANS (MANY OF THEM IN THE PHILIPPINES), AND FEW WHITES FROM US AND CANADA.

WITH THIS LIMITED DATA, IT IS SAFE TO SAY THAT THE BEST FOREIGN MED SCHOOLS THAT SEND THEIR LOCAL DOCTORS TO THE US IN 2002 MUST BE FROM THE PHILIPPINES.

[asianTSwantsMD]

sorry for the multiple posts due to connection hangups.

[rdecastro]

The site you referenced only shows that a lot of people from the three countries you mentioned apply for ECFMG documents. It has NOTHING to do with the quality of the graduates.

But, if you think a graduate from the phillipines on average is better than a graduate from the Karlolinska Institute in Sweden, or Sackler in Israel, or dozens of other non-US schools, you shouldn't be a physician. EBM will be beyond your limited abilities.

[asianTSwantsMD]

The site you referenced only shows that a lot of people from the three countries you mentioned apply for ECFMG documents. It has NOTHING to do with the quality of the graduates.

before you get certified by ECFMG you have to pass USMLE first. 159 local filipinos who passed USMLE out of 500 takers or 2000 medical graduates in 2002 is a good record. it is better than india's 1,000 plus out of several thousands who graduated and took USMLE.

But, if you think a graduate from the phillipines on average is better than a graduate from the Karlolinska Institute in Sweden, or Sackler in Israel, or dozens of other non-US schools, you shouldn't be a physician. EBM will be beyond your limited abilities.

don't over-interprete the data. stick to the ECFMG numbers as the title of the post implies. USMLE is still the sole basis of IMG's readiness to practice in the US.

my doing a research on how many medical graduates and possible USMLE takers a year in the Philippines has nothing to do with my plan of becoming a physician. stick to logic and ECFMG statistical data.

by the way, out of 100 (plus or minus) graduates of the University of the Philippines in 2001, more than half are now in the US for residency. that is just one school, and the trend remains the same annually. you will find them mostly at mass gen and UCSF. not bad.

dude, it's simple math- simple ratio and proportion.

[wolfvgang22]

http://www.albion.com/netiquette/netiquiz.html

[rdecastro]

The site you referenced only shows that a lot of people from the three countries you mentioned apply for ECFMG documents. It has NOTHING to do with the quality of the graduates.

before you get certified by ECFMG you have to pass USMLE first. 159 local filipinos who passed USMLE out of 500 takers or 2000 medical graduates in 2002 is a good record. it is better than india's 1,000 plus out of several thousands who graduated and took USMLE.

But, if you think a graduate from the phillipines on average is better than a graduate from the Karlolinska Institute in Sweden, or Sackler in Israel, or dozens of other non-US schools, you shouldn't be a physician. EBM will be beyond your limited abilities.

don't over-interprete the data. stick to the ECFMG numbers as the title of the post implies. USMLE is still the sole basis of IMG's readiness to practice in the US.

my doing a research on how many medical graduates and possible USMLE takers a year in the Philippines has nothing to do with my plan of becoming a physician. stick to logic and ECFMG statistical data.

by the way, out of 100 (plus or minus) graduates of the University of the Philippines in 2001, more than half are now in the US for residency. that is just one school, and the trend remains the same annually. you will find them mostly at mass gen and UCSF. not bad.

dude, it's simple math- simple ratio and proportion.

Dude, it's simply not true. The numbers of people applying through ECFMG has nothing to do with being "best", the title of your thread.

BFD that India has a lot of grads applying to ECFMG. They have a lot of people, and life in India isn't as good as life in the US - so a lot of people will apply.

What does quantity have to do with quality?

And passing USMLE isn't any indication of quality - it's the lowest common denominator to be able to practice.

I suggest you study statistics for dummies. It will help you.

[shockandawe]

I've met a a lot of great physicians from the Phillipines. They have a lot of heart. Generally speaking they work double as hard as USA grads. This is true for most foreign graduates. We work harder and we are ready and willing to work in places that are underserved. -s&a

[wolfvgang22]

I gave up trying to follow what asianTSwantsMD is trying to say with this ECFMG stuff some time ago. Ok, maybe I haven't...but I want to. asianTSwantsMD must be way super smarter than us or something. :wink:

Here's the only questions I give a rats *** about:
What percentage of students in the Phillipino schools pass the USMLE on the first attempt?
What is this percentage among non-phillipinos, since that's what most of us are?
What percentage of students start first semester and graduate with their class after 4 years?
Which schools are approved by state medical boards (I think Fatima is)
How cost effective is attending the phillipines compared to the caribbean?
Is it safe for me and my family?
What are the living conditions like?
How many licensed grads does each school have in the US?
What sorts of residencies can one get from these schools in the US?

I think you get the drift, right? I don't care about "best". Do they look good when you answer the above questions?

What is your motive? Are you trying to get approval for your plan to attend a Phillipino medical school?
Thanks -W

[asianTSwantsMD]

Dude, it's simply not true. The numbers of people applying through ECFMG has nothing to do with being "best", the title of your thread.

again, the only basis the US has to assess the medical training and competence of IMG's is through USMLE, a requirement for ECFMG certfication. i haven't heard of an incompetent medical graduate passing USMLE.

The title implies that according to ECFMG numbers and IMED list of approved foreign medical schools, Philippines has the highest rate of local medical graduates who passed USMLE and get certified by ECFMG in relation to the number of medical schools and the number of medical graduates a year.

BFD that India has a lot of grads applying to ECFMG. They have a lot of people, and life in India isn't as good as life in the US - so a lot of people will apply.

so is the life in the philippines and pakistan. among the three countries the philippines has the lowest number of medical schools and graduates annually. let's say India has 50,000 graduates (conservative estimate) in 2002. only 1300 passed USMLE. with poverty as a factor, the number of Indian USMLE takers should be way high. now, compare that to the 2,000 graduates of the philippines with 159 locals passed USMLE in 2002. percetage-wise, Philippines did better.

What does quantity have to do with quality?

quality means good medical training and abilty to hurdle USMLE. The more USMLE passers a foreign medical school produces in relation to its total graduates a year the more it shows the consistency and the quality of that school. quantity also means that the medical school does really produce quality doctors. with quantity, you cannot say it's pure luck or unexplainable fluke.

And passing USMLE isn't any indication of quality - it's the lowest common denominator to be able to practice.

to be ECFMG-certfied, you have to pass USMLE. how could that be a least common denominator for an IMG who wants to practice in the US? Statistically, it is true that the better the medical school is, the more USMLE passers it produces. Compare Fatima and UP. you will learn statistical analysis better that way.

I suggest you study statistics for dummies. It will help you.

my 25 units of statistics and research methods are not even useful in making these very simple ECFMG statistical data meaningful and understadable. i don't read "for dummies" books. they are not challenging enough.

if you just focus on ECFMG numbers and USMLE as a requirement for ECFMG certification and the only way to assess the quality of an IMG's medical training, you will understand my post.

[asianTSwantsMD]

I gave up trying to follow what asianTSwantsMD is trying to say with this ECFMG stuff some time ago. Ok, maybe I haven't...but I want to. asianTSwantsMD must be way super smarter than us or something. :wink:

Here's the only questions I give a rats gluteal about:
What percentage of students in the Phillipino schools pass the USMLE on the first attempt?

What is this percentage among non-phillipinos, since that's what most of us are?
What percentage of students start first semester and graduate with their class after 4 years?
Which schools are approved by state medical boards (I think Fatima is)
How cost effective is attending the phillipines compared to the caribbean?
Is it safe for me and my family?
What are the living conditions like?
How many licensed grads does each school have in the US?
What sorts of residencies can one get from these schools in the US?

I think you get the drift, right? I don't care about "best". Do they look good when you answer the above questions?

What is your motive? Are you trying to get approval for your plan to attend a Phillipino medical school?
Thanks -W

first and foremost, i am not attending or planning to attend a medical school in the philippines. the ECFMG data just shocked me. I thought only 10-20 local Filipinos pass USMLE and get ECFMG-certified every year. 159 USMLE passers in 2002 are indeed a shock.

all the factors like USMLE retakers, previous graduates, or those who stay additional year in school before they graduate are negligble in analyzing the ECFMG data since these factors are constant incidences in any countries.

[/code]

[rdecastro]

Dude, it's simply not true. The numbers of people applying through ECFMG has nothing to do with being "best", the title of your thread.

again, the only basis the US has to assess the medical training and competence of IMG's is through USMLE, a requirement for ECFMG certfication. i haven't heard of an incompetent medical graduate passing USMLE.

The title implies that according to ECFMG numbers and IMED list of approved foreign medical schools, Philippines has the highest rate of local medical graduates who passed USMLE and get certified by ECFMG in relation to the number of medical schools and the number of medical graduates a year.

BFD that India has a lot of grads applying to ECFMG. They have a lot of people, and life in India isn't as good as life in the US - so a lot of people will apply.

so is the life in the philippines and pakistan. among the three countries the philippines has the lowest number of medical schools and graduates annually. let's say India has 50,000 graduates (conservative estimate) in 2002. only 1300 passed USMLE. with poverty as a factor, the number of Indian USMLE takers should be way high. now, compare that to the 2,000 graduates of the philippines with 159 locals passed USMLE in 2002. percetage-wise, Philippines did better.

What does quantity have to do with quality?

quality means good medical training and abilty to hurdle USMLE. The more USMLE passers a foreign medical school produces in relation to its total graduates a year the more it shows the consistency and the quality of that school. quantity also means that the medical school does really produce quality doctors. with quantity, you cannot say it's pure luck or unexplainable fluke.

And passing USMLE isn't any indication of quality - it's the lowest common denominator to be able to practice.

to be ECFMG-certfied, you have to pass USMLE. how could that be a least common denominator for an IMG who wants to practice in the US? Statistically, it is true that the better the medical school is, the more USMLE passers it produces. Compare Fatima and UP. you will learn statistical analysis better that way.

I suggest you study statistics for dummies. It will help you.

my 25 units of statistics and research methods are not even useful in making these very simple ECFMG statistical data meaningful and understadable. i don't read "for dummies" books. they are not challenging enough.

if you just focus on ECFMG numbers and USMLE as a requirement for ECFMG certification and the only way to assess the quality of an IMG's medical training, you will understand my post.\

Wow, 25 units? I'd ask for my money back if I was you. You obviously lack a even a single clue. Simple quantity of applicants in no way correlates with the quality of those applicants, and if you posit that they do, you're full of crap.

But, go to school in India, or the Philipines, or anywhere you choose. And do us a favor, practice there.

[shockandawe]

rdecastro,

What is your problem?? Why don't you relax, dude? I can't believe that your are really that closed-minded. -s&a

[asianTSwantsMD]

Wow, 25 units? I'd ask for my money back if I was you. You obviously lack a even a single clue. Simple quantity of applicants in no way correlates with the quality of those applicants, and if you posit that they do, you're full of crap.

But, go to school in India, or the Philipines, or anywhere you choose. And do us a favor, practice there.

here's another data for you to shut up.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/1550.html

Philippines is next to india when it comes to the number of IMG's who are currently practicing in the US. population-wise, number of medical schools and annual medical graduates, philippines did better than india in percentage. keep in mind India has more or less 100 med schools and philippines has 20.

regarding my analysis of ecfmg data and imed list, go and ask your statistics professor if you have taken one. the quantity of USMLE passers says something about the quality of the schools these IMG's came from. simple. no need of statistical calculation

[rdecastro]

I've met a a lot of great physicians from the Phillipines. They have a lot of heart. Generally speaking they work double as hard as USA grads. This is true for most foreign graduates. We work harder and we are ready and willing to work in places that are underserved. -s&a

That may be. But, the title of the post, and asianmd's defense of it is quite simply wrong. The fact that there are a lot of physicians from anywhere doesn't mean that they are the best physicians.

And, asianmd's assinine refusal to understand that, especially with his terrain spotting about his 25 credits in stats, is quite simply ignorant.

[asianTSwantsMD]

to be exact, IMED list says india has 164 med schools philippines has 36.

[rdecastro]

rdecastro,

What is your problem?? Why don't you relax, dude? I can't believe that your are really that closed-minded. -s&a

Nothing closed minded about it.

The contention that a lot of applicants (sucessful or not) from anywhere is an indication of the quality of the schools is simply specious. Quantity does not correlate with quality.

[rdecastro]

Wow, 25 units? I'd ask for my money back if I was you. You obviously lack a even a single clue. Simple quantity of applicants in no way correlates with the quality of those applicants, and if you posit that they do, you're full of crap.

But, go to school in India, or the Philipines, or anywhere you choose. And do us a favor, practice there.

here's another data for you to shut up.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/1550.html

Philippines is next to india when it comes to the number of IMG's who are currently practicing in the US. population-wise, number of medical schools and annual medical graduates, philippines did better than india in percentage. keep in mind India has more or less 100 med schools and philippines has 20.

regarding my analysis of ecfmg data and imed list, go and ask your statistics professor if you have taken one. the quantity of USMLE passers says something about the quality of the schools these IMG's came from. simple. no need of statistical calculation

Again, data points that don't prove your point. All it shows is that there are a lot of people applying, not that they're of any quality (good or bad).

And, btw, I have a Masters in Mathematics from CalTech, a little private university you may have heard of. I have a hell of a lot more than 25 credits in stats.

[asianTSwantsMD]

I've met a a lot of great physicians from the Phillipines. They have a lot of heart. Generally speaking they work double as hard as USA grads. This is true for most foreign graduates. We work harder and we are ready and willing to work in places that are underserved. -s&a

That may be. But, the title of the post, and asianmd's defense of it is quite simply wrong. The fact that there are a lot of physicians from anywhere doesn't mean that they are the best physicians.

And, asianmd's assinine refusal to understand that, especially with his terrain spotting about his 25 credits in stats, is quite simply ignorant.

unfortunately, USA has only one way to assess the quality of IMG's medical training which is USMLE. my analysis can be supported by examples. it can be assumed that Harvard med school has more USMLE 1 passers than albany med. so is UP compared to Fatima in the philippines. there you go the correlation between quantity and quality. you need to attack my analysis not myself. argumentum ad hominem is both cheap and idiotic.

[asianTSwantsMD]

Again, data points that don't prove your point. All it shows is that there are a lot of people applying, not that they're of any quality (good or bad).

And, btw, I have a Masters in Mathematics from CalTech, a little private university you may have heard of. I have a hell of a lot more than 25 credits in stats.

you are a freakin liar. there is no MS in mathematics at caltech. they only admit grad students for PhD. don't fool me. i have a cousin at caltech. besides, there are only 3 or 4 PhD grad courses on stat at caltech. that is in no way more than 25 units.

if you can lie on cyberspace where reality is virtual, how much more in real life? you are a leech doctor in training. you are the one who should not be in medicine.

[wolfvgang22]

unfortunately, USA has only one way to assess the quality of IMG's medical training which is USMLE. my analysis can be supported by examples. it can be assumed that Harvard med school has more USMLE 1 passers than albany med. so is UP compared to Fatima in the philippines. there you go the correlation between quantity and quality. you need to attack my analysis not myself. argumentum ad hominem is both cheap and idiotic.
Huh?? :lol:
You can't assume that....well, I guess you could, but it probably wouldn't be a good assumption. What if Harvard admits fewer students, or what if albany admits fewer students. With all due respect, I think your logic is from way out of left field on this one. I'm not saying Phillipine schools are bad, actually, I think they are just fine. It's just you're reasoning doesn't make sense. Maybe take a different approach instead of using ECFMG certificate applications to make your case that the Phillipines is the best foriegn med school?

Of course, I don't agree with your a priori that caribbean schools aren't foreign schools. The USDOE considers them foreign.

[rdecastro]

I've met a a lot of great physicians from the Phillipines. They have a lot of heart. Generally speaking they work double as hard as USA grads. This is true for most foreign graduates. We work harder and we are ready and willing to work in places that are underserved. -s&a

That may be. But, the title of the post, and asianmd's defense of it is quite simply wrong. The fact that there are a lot of physicians from anywhere doesn't mean that they are the best physicians.

And, asianmd's assinine refusal to understand that, especially with his terrain spotting about his 25 credits in stats, is quite simply ignorant.

unfortunately, USA has only one way to assess the quality of IMG's medical training which is USMLE. my analysis can be supported by examples. it can be assumed that Harvard med school has more USMLE 1 passers than albany med. so is UP compared to Fatima in the philippines. there you go the correlation between quantity and quality. you need to attack my analysis not myself. argumentum ad hominem is both cheap and idiotic.

And once again, your interpretation is wrong. If you want to compare the USMLE scores of various nations graduates, that might (barely) have some relivence. But, the title of this thread is NOT supported by your arguments.

But, you're not comparing anything with anything. It's called apples-and-oranges.

Plus, comparing just the graduates of a school that take the USMLE has nothing to do with the quality of the school, since the USMLE takers are self-selecting.

And since your analysis is quite simply so wrong, and your defense of it so pathetic, it doesn't say much for your abilities, from whatever schools you attended.

[asianTSwantsMD]

unfortunately, USA has only one way to assess the quality of IMG's medical training which is USMLE. my analysis can be supported by examples. it can be assumed that Harvard med school has more USMLE 1 passers than albany med. so is UP compared to Fatima in the philippines. there you go the correlation between quantity and quality. you need to attack my analysis not myself. argumentum ad hominem is both cheap and idiotic.
Huh?? :lol:
You can't assume that....well, I guess you could, but it probably wouldn't be a good assumption. What if Harvard admits fewer students, or what if albany admits fewer students. With all due respect, I think your logic is from way out of left field on this one. I'm not saying Phillipine schools are bad, actually, I think they are just fine. It's just you're reasoning doesn't make sense. Maybe take a different approach instead of ECFMG certificate applications?

go and researh harvard and albany's med school records. why can't you assume such scenario? harvard has a more rigorous admission process than albany. harvard's average GPA and MCAT score are way higher than albany's. Harvard's facilites and faculty are better than albany. these are the factors that make harvard medical students better-trained and have better quality than albany's.

[rdecastro]

Again, data points that don't prove your point. All it shows is that there are a lot of people applying, not that they're of any quality (good or bad).

And, btw, I have a Masters in Mathematics from CalTech, a little private university you may have heard of. I have a hell of a lot more than 25 credits in stats.

you are a freakin liar. there is no MS in mathematics at caltech. they only admit grad students for PhD. don't fool me. i have a cousin at caltech. besides, there are only 3 or 4 PhD grad courses on stat at caltech. that is in no way more than 25 units.

if you can lie on cyberspace where reality is virtual, how much more in real life? you are a leech doctor in training. you are the one who should not be in medicine.

And who's lying, asshole?

First of all, I graduated in 1992 from CalTech. The diploma says mathematics. They changed to ACM, before they did away with the masters programs. Just like my Bachelors from UCLA in Astronautical Engineering - they don't offer that any more, either but I still have it.

And, yes, I have more than 25 credits in stats - aside from being a TA, teaching stats to pukes smarter than you.


Try and get your story straight.

[asianTSwantsMD]

And once again, your interpretation is wrong. If you want to compare the USMLE scores of various nations graduates, that might (barely) have some relivence. But, the title of this thread is NOT supported by your arguments.

But, you're not comparing anything with anything. It's called apples-and-oranges.

Plus, comparing just the graduates of a school that take the USMLE has nothing to do with the quality of the school, since the USMLE takers are self-selecting.

And since your analysis is quite simply so wrong, and your defense of it so pathetic, it doesn't say much for your abilities, from whatever schools you attended.

"relevance" mr. caltech MS in Math holder- as if such caltech program exists. by the way it's not a typo error. "E" key is way farther from "A" key. your misspelling is statistically improbable to be a typo error.

name the mechanism USA employs to assess the quality of IMG's medical training besides USMLE. nada.

my comparison is based on india's number of med schools and USMLE passers/ECFMG-certified compared to the Philippines'. same factors were applied. how can it be an apples-oranges comparison?

stick with the ecfmg data. don't go beyond the ecfmg numbers and imed list. we are talking about foreign med schools and IMG's who passed USMLE according to ecfmg not by the firms that rank med schools internationally.[/b]

[wolfvgang22]

unfortunately, USA has only one way to assess the quality of IMG's medical training which is USMLE. my analysis can be supported by examples. it can be assumed that Harvard med school has more USMLE 1 passers than albany med. so is UP compared to Fatima in the philippines. there you go the correlation between quantity and quality. you need to attack my analysis not myself. argumentum ad hominem is both cheap and idiotic.
Huh?? :lol:
You can't assume that....well, I guess you could, but it probably wouldn't be a good assumption. What if Harvard admits fewer students, or what if albany admits fewer students. With all due respect, I think your logic is from way out of left field on this one. I'm not saying Phillipine schools are bad, actually, I think they are just fine. It's just you're reasoning doesn't make sense. Maybe take a different approach instead of ECFMG certificate applications?

go and researh harvard and albany's med school records. why can't you assume such scenario? harvard has a more rigorous admission process than albany. harvard's average GPA and MCAT score are way higher than albany's. Harvard's facilites and faculty are better than albany. these are the factors that make harvard medical students better-trained and have better quality than albany's.
If Harvards admissions standards are more rigorous, so what? I'd be willing to bet that pretty much the same percentage of students from Albany Medical school pass the USMLE as Harvard med students. Also, you said yourself that passing the USMLE is the criteria that matters, so whether Harvard students are suppossedly better trained otherwise because they have better facilities is irrelevant to this discussion.

The burden of proof isn't on me to research the numbers, it's your argument, your example.

[asianTSwantsMD]

And who's lying, place to exchange gas?

First of all, I graduated in 1992 from CalTech. The diploma says mathematics. They changed to ACM, before they did away with the masters programs. Just like my Bachelors from UCLA in Astronautical Engineering - they don't offer that any more, either but I still have it.

And, yes, I have more than 25 credits in stats - aside from being a TA, teaching stats to pukes smarter than you.


Try and get your story straight.

i lived at the co-op on landfair avenue. i never met an astronautical engineering major at UCLA nor did i hear about it being offered at UCLA engineering department. I, however, know that UCLA extension/night school offers it as a certificate not as ** degree. Don't worry i know too many UCLA engineering graduates/students. i can ask.

regarding caltech? here's the big bang for you.

http://www.math.caltech.edu/general/phddesc.html

for 15 years of the department's existence, no MS degree in math has been awarded, only Phd's. I hate liars, particularly those who lie about their academic backgrounds.

[asianTSwantsMD]

If Harvards admissions standards are more rigorous, so what? I'd be willing to bet that pretty much the same percentage of students from Albany Medical school pass the USMLE as Harvard med students. Also, you said yourself that passing the USMLE is the criteria that matters, so whether Harvard students are suppossedly better trained otherwise because they have better facilities is irrelevant to this discussion.

The burden of proof isn't on me to research the numbers, it's your argument, your example.

regarding the quality of US med schools, that's a different ballgame. USMLE is not just the only qualifier. you have to look at the retention and dropout rates. compare the number of second year this year to the incoming third year next year since USMLE is taken during the end of second year. as far as i heard harvard retention and dropout rates are minimal compared to albany med. you may have heard this that if you fail one of the exams in your 1st year 1st sem at albany, you will repeat the entire 1st year classes next year. basically you waste one year. i don't think harvard has that policy.

by the way, check the ecfmg data. how many local IMG's from the caribbean schools passed USMLE and got ECFMG-certfied in 2002? i think the most were 5. they maybe foreign medical schools because they are located in foreign lands but the structure of their medical programs is geared towards american IMG's. they are totally different to the medical programs of non-caribbean foreign med schools.

[###]

...................

[asianTSwantsMD]

at the risk of feeding the troll...

rdecastro is correct: quantity does not equal quality. The ECFMG data indicate the numbers who have applied and says very little or nothing about relative quality. All you can say is that the Phillipines turns out lots of grads who are able to pass the USMLE. But you can't say much else. For example, suppose that 1 million Phillipine grads attempt the exam and and have a dismal 1% pass rate. In that case, Phillipine grads would swamp the system with ECFMG passers (10,000 per year) -- but we would hardly call it the best school because the pass rate is so low.

again, the only way the US employs to assess the quality of IMG's medical training before they get ECFMG-certified is through USMLE. thus, ECFMG data can be used to check the quality of foreign med schools where these IMG's come from.

it has been established already that philippines has a total of 36 med school and give more or less 2,000 med diplomas a year. now compare that to india with more or less 50,000 annual graduates from 164 med schools. it is obvious that india would have more USMLE takers relative to the number of annual med graduates.

in 2002, india had 1,139 USMLE passers while philippines had 159. isn't it obvious that philippines did better considering the ecfmg data and imed list of schools? it is also known that more or less 1500 out of 2,000 plus medical graduates pass the philippine board exam a year and practice in the philippines. even if all 2,000 philippine medical graduates in 2002 took USMLE and 159 passed, still philippines did better. i would put more or less 500 filipino USMLE takers in 2002 according to established 10 high-performing med schools.

By your reasoning, the University of Phoenix is better than MIT because it turns out more graduates.

no because there is no common mechanism like USMLE to assess the quality of graduates from university of phoenix and MIT, and i don't think there is an MIT program offered the same way at University of phoenix. the latter is a distance education provider. now that is apple-orange comparison.

If you want to assess quality you could do two things:

1) compare the USMLE scores of test takers from Phillipines against test takers from elsewhere. For example, if test takers from the Phillipines average 250 and test takers from SGU average 210, then we could conclude that the Phillipine grads are better trained. I don't think that data is available.

2) compare the pass RATE of test takers from the Phillipines against test takers from other schools. Thus, if the PROPORTION of Phillipine grads who pass the USMLE on their first attemp is higher than the PROPORTION of SGU grads, that would be evidence that the Phillipines has a stronger program. I don't think that data is available either.

By the way, I used to teach stats.

as i said in my earlier posts, with the limited ecfmg data and imed list of foreign med schools, it is a wonder for me that out of 2,000 filipino graduates in 2002, 159 passed. percentage-wise, that's a feat. i expect like 10-20. i was shocked indeed.

you can bring up USMLE retakers. keep in mind there are also retakers in india and pakistan. also stick with the ecfmg numbers. forget the fact that karolinska and other swedish med schools are way better than indian and philippine med schools. that is true but not much local graduates of swedish schools are interested to get ecfmg certifications. maybe english language also plays a role in this issue as english is the medium of instruction in india, pakistan, and philippines.

[###]

....................

[asianTSwantsMD]

You win!

I look forward to your posts from the Phillipines.

no, i am not going to the philippines for med school. i just found philippines' ecfmg numbers shocking. and i researched it well to understand them.

[asianTSwantsMD]

rdecastro,

What is your problem?? Why don't you relax, dude? I can't believe that your are really that closed-minded. -s&a

Nothing closed minded about it.

The contention that a lot of applicants (sucessful or not) from anywhere is an indication of the quality of the schools is simply specious. Quantity does not correlate with quality.

wrong. that's not my contention/analysis. since USMLE is the only mechanism employed to assess the quality of the IMG's medical education, the number of USMLE passers (means successful) says something about the quality of the schools these successful IMG's come from.

these successful IMG's are not mass-produced goods-- more quantity, less quality if human hands do it. if the fine machine does the job, no correlation. but the quality of the machine determines the quantity of the product. what if the machine breaks? simply, no production.

foreign med schools are like that machine. more quality in their medical training, more quantity of USMLE passers they produce. thus, there is a direct correlation.

take the case of UP and UST, the top two med schools in the phillippines. They always top the philippine medical board exam and produce almost 100% (more or less 100 board takers from each school) board passers almost every year. compare that to so-so med schools whose passing rate is 25% (like 25 out of 100 takers).

do you still think that there is no correlation between the quality of education and quantity of local board or USMLE passers? keep in mind the data above have remained consistent since the philippine medical board started in the 1940's. also it is a fact that most filipino IMG's passing USMLE and practicing in the US came from UP and UST.

i hope my explanation is very elementary enough.

[stephew]

the usmle is hardly the only measure to assess a school. Enjoy the Phillipines. Warnings will be sent out to people who insult/flame others. you all know better and many have had private informal warnings before.

[wolfvgang22]

I'm sorry, I still don't think your reasoning makes any sense after reading your multiple posts.

That means one of three things:
1. You are way smarter than the rest of us, and your reasoning is far beyond our puny aptitude for comprehension,
2. Your reasoning makes sense to you, but to you only, and so you are mistaken,
3. You are trolling and we all fell for it because we believed numbers 1 or 2 and we're nice guys

Let the reader decide which is correct. I'm moving on.

[neilc]

omg, is asiantswantsmd serious??

holy cow....talk about an inability to extrapolate pertinent data from stats. my goodness.

:roll:

[asianTSwantsMD]

I'm sorry, I still don't think your reasoning makes any sense after reading your multiple posts.

That means one of three things:
1. You are way smarter than the rest of us, and your reasoning is far beyond our puny aptitude for comprehension,
2. Your reasoning makes sense to you, but to you only, and so you are mistaken,
3. You are trolling and we all fell for it because we believed numbers 1 or 2 and we're nice guys

Let the reader decide which is correct. I'm moving on.

you are simply wrong. my intent in posting these ecfmg data is to share to those who are currently studying in the philippines. they should not feel insecure or intimidated because they are graduates from the philippines. they have the ecfmg numbers to back them up.

i presume these numbers are surprising too to some filipino IMG's. 159 USMLE passers are like the total annual graduates of the top two med schools in the philippines: UP and UST. they are the ones whose graduates usually take USMLE and come to the US.

even my retired cardiologist aunt who graduated from UST and came to the US in the 70's and practiced until last year was surprised, and said the same thing-- 159 USMLE passers, even if all 2,000 med graduates in 2002 took USMLE which was very unlikely, were still good for a country that has only 36 med schools.

even zero is meaningful if you try to understand it.

[shockandawe]

Can someone explain what is a "troll" in the valuemd forum sense? Am I a troll? Is rrod a troll?? How do you become a troll?? And if I want to troll, how can I go about trolling??? Basically, what is it and why is it done? -s&a

[wolfvgang22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#Examples

[asianTSwantsMD]

i think some of the posters are confused because they focused on the word "best" while reading the title.

the title says "ecfmg says...." not "US News" or "world report" that ranks medical schools internationally.

oxford, cambridge, moscow state university, karolinska and many others are at par with harvard, UCSF, John Hopkins and many others.

but medical graduates of england, moscow and sweden are not so gung ho to take USMLE, get ECFMG-certified, and practice in the US. thus, ECFMG cannot say a lot in numbers about them.

Stick with the ECFMG data, you will see the light.

[neilc]

i think some of the posters are confused because they focused on the word "best" while reading the title.

the title says "ecfmg says...." not "US News" or "world report" that ranks medical schools internationally.

oxford, cambridge, moscow state university, karolinska and many others are at par with harvard, UCSF, John Hopkins and many others.

but medical graduates of england, moscow and sweden are not so gung ho to take USMLE, get ECFMG-certified, and practice in the US. thus, ECFMG cannot say a lot in numbers about them.

Stick with the ECFMG data, you will see the light.

still, the numbers you come up with say NOTHING about quality...even from an ECFMG standpoint.

you say that most=best. that is simply not the case. your numbers have NOTHING to do with quality. a point that has been mentioned time and time again, yet you ignore it.

the numbers that you quote simply imply that the philipines produce the most USMLE passers, according to ECFMG. your interpretation that this equals the "best" has no data to support it. re-read the rdecastro and DrB posts. they make sense. yours absolutely do not.

[asianTSwantsMD]

still, the numbers you come up with say NOTHING about quality...even from an ECFMG standpoint.

you say that most=best. that is simply not the case. your numbers have NOTHING to do with quality. a point that has been mentioned time and time again, yet you ignore it.

the numbers that you quote simply imply that the philipines produce the most USMLE passers, according to ECFMG. your interpretation that this equals the "best" has no data to support it. re-read the rdecastro and DrB posts. they make sense. yours absolutely do not.


i already gave an example over and over. most Filipino USMLE passers are from 2 top med schools with best quality medical education in the philippines-- premier state univesity UP and private UST.

my indian friends said the same thing about indian USMLE passers who are concentrated in the best private medical schools and India's premier medical institutions, AIIMS.

how many more examples do you want?

[sprvs]

PHILIPPINES? IT IS A SMALL COUNTRY WITH MORE OR LESS 20 MED SCHOOLS THAT GIVE ALMOST 2,000 MEDICAL DIPLOMAS A YEAR. LESS THAN 500 MEDICAL GRADUATES A YEAR TOOK USMLE. 1500 PLUS PASSED THE PHILIPPINE EXAM AND REMAINED IN THE PHILIPPINES TO PRACTICE ANNUALLY.

LOOK AT THE DATA:

200 PHILIPPINE GRADUATES PASSED USMLE AND GOT CERTIFIED BY ECFMG. 159 ARE LOCAL FILIPINOS. THE REST MUST BE A COMBO OF EAST ASIANS, FILIPINO AMERICANS, INDIANS (MANY OF THEM IN THE PHILIPPINES), AND FEW WHITES FROM US AND CANADA.

WITH THIS LIMITED DATA, IT IS SAFE TO SAY THAT THE BEST FOREIGN MED SCHOOLS THAT SEND THEIR LOCAL DOCTORS TO THE US IN 2002 MUST BE FROM THE PHILIPPINES.


Where did you get 500 people who take USMLE from? Even if it is true, 200 of 500 makes it only 40% who successfully passed USMLE. I personally would not go to a medical school that has a USMLE pass rate of only 40%. And when this rate is compared to 55% pass rate for USMLE Part I and 73% pass rate for USMLE Part II, for all foreign graduates in 2002, it does not make Philippines even an average place for medical study let alone making it the best place.
http://www.ecfmg.org/annuals/2002/certmse.html#ex1

[asianTSwantsMD]

PHILIPPINES? IT IS A SMALL COUNTRY WITH MORE OR LESS 20 MED SCHOOLS THAT GIVE ALMOST 2,000 MEDICAL DIPLOMAS A YEAR. LESS THAN 500 MEDICAL GRADUATES A YEAR TOOK USMLE. 1500 PLUS PASSED THE PHILIPPINE EXAM AND REMAINED IN THE PHILIPPINES TO PRACTICE ANNUALLY.

LOOK AT THE DATA:

200 PHILIPPINE GRADUATES PASSED USMLE AND GOT CERTIFIED BY ECFMG. 159 ARE LOCAL FILIPINOS. THE REST MUST BE A COMBO OF EAST ASIANS, FILIPINO AMERICANS, INDIANS (MANY OF THEM IN THE PHILIPPINES), AND FEW WHITES FROM US AND CANADA.

WITH THIS LIMITED DATA, IT IS SAFE TO SAY THAT THE BEST FOREIGN MED SCHOOLS THAT SEND THEIR LOCAL DOCTORS TO THE US IN 2002 MUST BE FROM THE PHILIPPINES.


Where did you get 500 people who take USMLE from? Even if it is true, 200 of 500 makes it only 40% who successfully passed USMLE. I personally would not go to a medical school that has a USMLE pass rate of only 40%. And when this rate is compared to 55% pass rate for USMLE Part I and 73% pass rate for USMLE Part II, for all foreign graduates in 2002, it does not make Philippines even an average place for medical study let alone making it the best place.
http://www.ecfmg.org/annuals/2002/certmse.html#ex1

the estimated number of 500 local filipino usmle takers was derived from 10 high performing schools in the philippines considering each school has 50 (half of the total gaduates) usmle takers. this estimate is very, very high. so we can include retakers and previous graduates too. if you check philippine med school websites, almost 100% of their total graduates took the local board exam and did their residencies locally.

That's extra 2 years after 4 years of med school, enough to prepare USMLE 1 and 2. few local graduates do not do their residencies and take the local board. they opt for USMLE after their fourth year. that is common among graduates from top universities. so 500 is too high an estimate. over-estimating is better than under.

keep in mind philippines have 36 med schools and 2,000 plus medical graduates a year. india made the 2002 USMLE pass rate high because they had too many usmle passers relative to the number of their med schools of 169, 50,000 or more annual medical graduates and several thousands of usmle takers.

now compare india's 1,200 and philippines' 159 considering the numbers above. you don't need statistical calculations even if all 2,000 filipino medical graduates in 2002 took USMLE which was impossible. still the philippines did better.

i do believe that top medical schools of india and philippines, where USMLE passers are concentrated, have way more than 50% usmle pass rate (half of the total number of usmle takers from each school). If you get accepted at UP or AIIMS, you might as well apply at harvard. that means you are good.

[neilc]

still, the numbers you come up with say NOTHING about quality...even from an ECFMG standpoint.

you say that most=best. that is simply not the case. your numbers have NOTHING to do with quality. a point that has been mentioned time and time again, yet you ignore it.

the numbers that you quote simply imply that the philipines produce the most USMLE passers, according to ECFMG. your interpretation that this equals the "best" has no data to support it. re-read the rdecastro and DrB posts. they make sense. yours absolutely do not.


i already gave an example over and over. most Filipino USMLE passers are from 2 top med schools with best quality medical education in the philippines-- premier state univesity UP and private UST.

my indian friends said the same thing about indian USMLE passers who are concentrated in the best private medical schools and India's premier medical institutions, AIIMS.

how many more examples do you want?

so, where is the data that proves what you are saying here? i have seen no data that suggest a) that most of the usmle passers are from these schools, b) that these schools are the best, and c) that the usmle passers from india are concentrated at these schools.

furthermore, even if the data to prove what you say above is true, it says NOTHING about your assertation that the Phiippines are the best, according to the ECFMG.

if you want data to prove what you say, you must first define what makes one thing "better" than the other. so, i would buy it if you said a school is better if it has better scores, more first time passers, a better pass/attempt ration, or something like that. your data simply say that the highest number of test passers come from the philippines. your data do not show anything about the number of attempts, the scores of the test takers, the total number of test takers, etc....

all that you can conclude from the numbers you have is that the largest number of usmle passers come from the philippines, as has been pointed out. this number, by itself, carries no implication of quality AT ALL!!!! you need more data, which you do not have, to support your idea that this means these schools are "better"

you are making a bogus assumption, based on incomplete data and anecdotal evidence. this is why everyone is convinced (me included) that you have no idea what you are talking about.

nobody cares which schools you or your freinds think are the best. that means squat, especially since you have shown that you have difficulty with critical thinking and data analysis.

[asianTSwantsMD]

sorry i am brushing my spanish online now.

just ask filipino and indian IMG's. there is such a thing as common knowledge.

[neilc]

sorry i am brushing my spanish online now.

just ask filipino and indian IMG's. there is such a thing as common knowledge.

common knowledge is the same thing as anecdotal evidence....

basically, this entire thread served 3 purposes:
1. to show that the philippines have a lot of folks that pass the usmle
2. to show that you have no grasp of interpreting data or stats
3. to show that you used number 2 above to convince yourself of something that really doesn't have any significance

so, you proved to yourself something that doesn't matter using bad data.

well, i guess you also proved to many folks that you have a long way to go in your critical thinking before you can succeed in med school.

best of luck to you.

[rdecastro]

And who's lying, place to exchange gas?

First of all, I graduated in 1992 from CalTech. The diploma says mathematics. They changed to ACM, before they did away with the masters programs. Just like my Bachelors from UCLA in Astronautical Engineering - they don't offer that any more, either but I still have it.

And, yes, I have more than 25 credits in stats - aside from being a TA, teaching stats to pukes smarter than you.


Try and get your story straight.

i lived at the co-op on landfair avenue. i never met an astronautical engineering major at UCLA nor did i hear about it being offered at UCLA engineering department. I, however, know that UCLA extension/night school offers it as a certificate not as ** degree. Don't worry i know too many UCLA engineering graduates/students. i can ask.

regarding caltech? here's the big bang for you.

http://www.math.caltech.edu/general/phddesc.html

for 15 years of the department's existence, no MS degree in math has been awarded, only Phd's. I hate liars, particularly those who lie about their academic backgrounds.

Well, , maybe CalTech will give me my money back. Also, the website you listed there says nothing like what you claim. Of course, in your universe you can make up meanings from whatever the hell you want, and reality doesn't matter. Just like your claim that stats from ECFMG has something to do with "best". Since you refuse to get a clue, get a dictionary and find out what "best" means.

As far as UCLA, they offered degrees in Astro when I graduated, in 1974.

I guess because the Air Force doesn't fly F4 Phantoms any more, you think they don't exist either?

Geez, what a foolish person you are. Back under the bridge, troll.

[asianTSwantsMD]

sorry i am brushing my spanish online now.

just ask filipino and indian IMG's. there is such a thing as common knowledge.

common knowledge is the same thing as anecdotal evidence....

basically, this entire thread served 3 purposes:
1. to show that the philippines have a lot of folks that pass the usmle
2. to show that you have no grasp of interpreting data or stats
3. to show that you used number 2 above to convince yourself of something that really doesn't have any significance

so, you proved to yourself something that doesn't matter using bad data.

well, i guess you also proved to many folks that you have a long way to go in your critical thinking before you can succeed in med school.

best of luck to you.

your points are too shalow.

granting you are right that common knowledge is anecdotal evidence.

do you need statistics that harvard is the number 1 school in the US? if you do need some numbers or graphs, you must be from timbuktu.

do you need proofs that it's hard to get and stay in at harvard med? you yourself, a foreign med student, are the proof.

UP is the harvard of the Philippines. Filipinos know that, and they don't need statistics as proofs. that is called common knowledge.

since I am not into insulting people, i won't stoop that low. i stick to my analysis. sue me.

[asianTSwantsMD]

Well, brat boy, maybe CalTech will give me my money back. Also, the website you listed there says nothing like what you claim. Of course, in your universe you can make up meanings from whatever the hell you want, and reality doesn't matter. Just like your claim that stats from ECFMG has something to do with "best". Since you refuse to get a clue, get a dictionary and find out what "best" means.

As far as UCLA, they offered degrees in Astro when I graduated, in 1974.

I guess because the Air Force doesn't fly F4 Phantoms any more, you think they don't exist either?

Geez, what a punk you are. Back under the bridge, troll.

here it is caltech ms in math guy



Ph.D. Program in
Mathematics 2004–2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address: Mathematics 253-37 | Caltech | Pasadena, CA 91125
Telephone: (626) 395-4335 | Fax: (626) 585-1728


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Introduction

Caltech is a small, highly selective institution, emphasizing research in the sciences and engineering. The undergraduate and graduate student bodies each number about 950. With a professorial faculty of about 280 plus a research staff of about 1,050 graduate student and 950 undergraduate, Caltech offers an exceptionally high level of faculty-student interaction.

The Mathematics option currently has 15 regular faculty members, 13 postdoctoral fellows and instructors, several visiting mathematicians, and 34 graduate students. The graduate program in mathematics is designed to prepare students for research careers in universities, industry or government. Accordingly, only those students seeking the Ph.D. degree are admitted. In the past fifteen years Caltech has awarded doctorates in mathematics to about 89 students, many of whom have moved into attractive positions as members



blame caltech not me. it's clear on their website. they don't award ms in math sorry your lie has caught you.

[neilc]

your points are too shalow.

granting you are right that common knowledge is anecdotal evidence.

do you need statistics that harvard is the number 1 school in the US? if you do need some numbers or graphs, you must be from timbuktu.

do you need proofs that it's hard to get and stay in at harvard med? you yourself, a foreign med student, are the proof.

UP is the harvard of the Philippines. Filipinos know that, and they don't need statistics as proofs. that is called common knowledge.

since I am not into insulting people, i won't stoop that low. i stick to my analysis. sue me.

to answer your questions...yes, i do need proof that harvard is the number one school in the US. this is a very, very soft assertation that many people would disagree with. while you may think it is the best, it would be nearly impossible to validate this statement, and your personal feeling that something is the "best" means nothing.

and, i agree that it is tough to get into harvard med. there are stats such as GPA, MCAT scores, acceptance percentages, etc that back that statement up. but, to stay in? well, look at the attrition rate. those that make it into harvard stay in. so, it doesn't appear to be so tough, based on the numbers i have seen.

i am sure you will stick to your analysis. that is probablly the most disturbing thing about this thread. stubborness, and the willingness to ignore facts and data in order to remain convinced of your position are not good traits to have. learn to reevaluate things, and pay attention to details, as well as admit that you were wrong. this will serve you far better in life than being stubborn in your own ignorance.

best of luck

as far as a school being the "harvard of somewhere else", that is absolutely useless info. my school claims to be the harvard of eastern europe. why? who knows....it is mainly just a little thing people say to make them fell good about the school, or to try to attach some prestige to a university. whatever, this is just a claim that is not verifiable and meaningless.

[neilc]

Well, brat boy, maybe CalTech will give me my money back. Also, the website you listed there says nothing like what you claim. Of course, in your universe you can make up meanings from whatever the hell you want, and reality doesn't matter. Just like your claim that stats from ECFMG has something to do with "best". Since you refuse to get a clue, get a dictionary and find out what "best" means.

As far as UCLA, they offered degrees in Astro when I graduated, in 1974.

I guess because the Air Force doesn't fly F4 Phantoms any more, you think they don't exist either?

Geez, what a punk you are. Back under the bridge, troll.

here it is caltech ms in math guy



Ph.D. Program in
Mathematics 2004–2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address: Mathematics 253-37 | Caltech | Pasadena, CA 91125
Telephone: (626) 395-4335 | Fax: (626) 585-1728


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Introduction

Caltech is a small, highly selective institution, emphasizing research in the sciences and engineering. The undergraduate and graduate student bodies each number about 950. With a professorial faculty of about 280 plus a research staff of about 1,050 graduate student and 950 undergraduate, Caltech offers an exceptionally high level of faculty-student interaction.

The Mathematics option currently has 15 regular faculty members, 13 postdoctoral fellows and instructors, several visiting mathematicians, and 34 graduate students. The graduate program in mathematics is designed to prepare students for research careers in universities, industry or government. Accordingly, only those students seeking the Ph.D. degree are admitted. In the past fifteen years Caltech has awarded doctorates in mathematics to about 89 students, many of whom have moved into attractive positions as members



blame caltech not me. it's clear on their website. they don't award ms in math sorry your lie has caught you.

wow....you really have a hard time understanding things....this quote you have in bold simply says that they have awarded doctorates for 15 years. it says NOTHING about not having a masters program during some portion of that period...

now, i have no idea whether they did or not, but your evidence, once again, shows something completely seperate than what you are claiming it shows...

[asianTSwantsMD]

you are blind. read again, and call caltech to recheck. maybe this part is tough for you to grasp:

"Accordingly, only those students seeking the Ph.D. degree are admitted."

now, that's wow.

[asianTSwantsMD]

to answer your questions...yes, i do need proof that harvard is the number one school in the US. this is a very, very soft assertation that many people would disagree with. while you may think it is the best, it would be nearly impossible to validate this statement, and your personal feeling that something is the "best" means nothing.

and, i agree that it is tough to get into harvard med. there are stats such as GPA, MCAT scores, acceptance percentages, etc that back that statement up. but, to stay in? well, look at the attrition rate. those that make it into harvard stay in. so, it doesn't appear to be so tough, based on the numbers i have seen.

i am sure you will stick to your analysis. that is probablly the most disturbing thing about this thread. stubborness, and the willingness to ignore facts and data in order to remain convinced of your position are not good traits to have. learn to reevaluate things, and pay attention to details, as well as admit that you were wrong. this will serve you far better in life than being stubborn in your own ignorance.

best of luck

as far as a school being the "harvard of somewhere else", that is absolutely useless info. my school claims to be the harvard of eastern europe. why? who knows....it is mainly just a little thing people say to make them fell good about the school, or to try to attach some prestige to a university. whatever, this is just a claim that is not verifiable and meaningless.

don't worry this post is not for you. you won't understand these ecfmg numbers. Filipino or Asian IMG's and medical students will.

[jgilbert63]

you are blind. read again, and call caltech to recheck. maybe this part is tough for you to grasp:

"Accordingly, only those students seeking the Ph.D. degree are admitted."

now, that's wow.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I did find the following on the web and it would appear Cal Tech did offer a Masters in Mathematics...

http://www.me.utexas.edu/~jensen/network_02/topic_pages/goel/page2.html

http://www.cdpages.com/dobbs/dobbscv.html

Schools change academic programs all the time. I graduated from Louisiana Tech with a ** in Zoology......the school no longer offers that degree program....it has been replaced by a ** in Biology. Zoology does not appear on the university's website nor their catalog, but I have the degree nonetheless. I guess that makes me a prevaricator too.

[neilc]

you are blind. read again, and call caltech to recheck. maybe this part is tough for you to grasp:

"Accordingly, only those students seeking the Ph.D. degree are admitted."

now, that's wow.

well, i agree that quote applies to current applicants. but, it very likely does not apply to applicants 15 or 20 years ago.

you really have problems with understanding things! this info is pertinent to today only! it says NOTHING about whether there was a program in place last year, much less 15 years ago!!!!!

anyhow, you clearly refuse to think that you may be mistaken. best of luck to you in your endeavors.

[wolfvgang22]

you are blind. read again, and call caltech to recheck. maybe this part is tough for you to grasp:

"Accordingly, only those students seeking the Ph.D. degree are admitted."

now, that's wow.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I did find the following on the web and it would appear Cal Tech did offer a Masters in Mathematics...

http://www.me.utexas.edu/~jensen/network_02/topic_pages/goel/page2.html

http://www.cdpages.com/dobbs/dobbscv.html

Schools change academic programs all the time. I graduated from Louisiana Tech with a ** in Zoology......the school no longer offers that degree program....it has been replaced by a ** in Biology. Zoology does not appear on the university's website nor their catalog, but I have the degree nonetheless. I guess that makes me a prevaricator too.
Right. One of my undergrad degrees was officially called a ** in Composite Science. My alma mater doesn't offer that degree anymore, now they call it a ** in Chemistry and Biology. They switched around a few courses and renamed it so more people would understand what the degree is. Programs do change up stuff all the time.

[Daniel]

and the MS in mathematics from caltech is not some policy change that happened 15-20 years ago...apparently, there is a recent grad (2000) of the program.

http://www.math.lsa.umich.edu/~mleok/mleok_vita.pdf

quite impressive actually, the guy must be around 26 years old with a **, MS and PhD from caltech with a perfect 4.0 throughout.

[stephew]

this is thread is being left open long enough for the people who've received PMs to edit their posts. failure to do so will result in formal warnings.

[shockandawe]

I'm really embarrassed at some of the insults that you guys are giving to asianTSwantsMD, especially from people like castro. Castro, you are suppose to be more older and mature. I understand that you are upset, but you need to be in more control. Sometimes you really lose it. -s&a

[wolfvgang22]

Will this be the last post before it's locked? I wanna kill another thread!
heh heh...geez Im weird sometimes...
:backfire:

[stephew]

Will this be the last post before it's locked? I wanna kill another thread!
heh heh...geez Im weird sometimes...
:backfire:
weird is ok. forcing this thread to get locked down is bad.

[asianTSwantsMD]

i called caltech. according to the admission office, there is no ms in math offered. just Phd.

however, Phd dropouts or those who decide to discontinue in the middle of their Phd program can settlle for ms.

castro made it sound caltech offers ms.

enough of this issue.

i am still gathering some data on filipino IMG's, usmle takers and passers in 2002. AMA office is in my town-- chicago. they have databank on IMG's.

still i stick to my analysis. it makes sense to those who know med schools in the philippines. i found out this info too that the country with most local USMLE takers annually is mexico. look how many local mexicans get ecfmg-certified in 2002. i think the language is the culprit.

[wolfvgang22]

viva mexico!!!

[rdecastro]

i called caltech. according to the admission office, there is no ms in math offered. just Phd.

however, Phd dropouts or those who decide to discontinue in the middle of their Phd program can settlle for ms.

castro made it sound caltech offers ms.

enough of this issue.

i am still gathering some data on filipino IMG's, usmle takers and passers in 2002. AMA office is in my town-- chicago. they have databank on IMG's.

still i stick to my analysis. it makes sense to those who know med schools in the philippines. i found out this info too that the country with most local USMLE takers annually is mexico. look how many local mexicans get ecfmg-certified in 2002. i think the language is the culprit.

And you're still wrong. Asking the wrong questions doesn't support your arguments.

http://pr.caltech.edu/media/commence/mastsci.html

There are three of four Masters in Mathematics degree awardees listed in 1998, for example.

And you still don't have a clue about analysis.

[wolfvgang22]

Dear asianTSwantsMD,
http://img133.exs.cx/img133/3320/negative3.jpg

:lol:

[asianTSwantsMD]

And you're still wrong. Asking the wrong questions doesn't support your arguments.

http://pr.caltech.edu/media/commence/mastsci.html

There are three of four Masters in Mathematics degree awardees listed in 1998, for example.

And you still don't have a clue about analysis.

castro, give this issue a rest and make up your mind. you were the one who said the MS program was scrapped out after you graduated.

again, if you apply for MS in math, caltech will tell you they only accept PhD applicants. Call caltech yourself so you will shut up.

[asianTSwantsMD]

Dear asianTSwantsMD,
http://img133.exs.cx/img133/3320/negative3.jpg

:lol:

wolfvgang, if you think my contention that the USMLE pass rate of filipino IMG's is very impressive is out of this world, you need to review the data below:

The following list ranks the top 10 countries where the largest numbers of U.S. physicians trained.


country no. of physicians (no. of med schools)

1. India 41,235 (164)
2. Philippines 19,449 (36) *
3. Mexico 12,168 (68 )**
4. Pakistan 9,755 (35)
5. Dominican Republic 6,988 (16)
6. Former USSR 5,104 (64)
7. Italy 4,871 (36)
8. Egypt 4,731 (16)
9. South Korea 4,629 (50)
10. China and Hong Kong 4,537 (165)

Sources:
AMA Membership Department
As of December 31, 2003

IMED
Current as of 14 Jan 2005

*2 med schools closed long time ago and 2 are not conventional med schools but rural medical education experiments-- educating 10-20 medical students in the field from each school annually while working directly with the rural patients from first year to sixth. first 2 years, they work as medical assistants, then next 2, as nurses, then the last 2 years, they work towards their MD's.

**mexico's numbers are high too but there is an obvious reason for its high performance: guadalajara where most of the students are americans.

i challenge you to show these data to statisticians. they will say the same thing that the numbers of the Philippines are impressive. there is no other reason this statistical anomaly can be attributed to but to the quality of the medical education in the philippines and english as a medium of medical education.

again, the quality of an IMG's medical knowledge and training is tested through USMLE, nothing else. If USMLE has nothing to do with the quality of education this IMG has, then USMLE has failed its goals. if not to screen the IMG's readiness to practice medicine in the US, then what is USMLE for? stop playing dumb.

[neilc]

Dear asianTSwantsMD,
http://img133.exs.cx/img133/3320/negative3.jpg

:lol:

wolfvgang, if you think my contention that the USMLE pass rate of filipino IMG's is very impressive is out of this world, you need to review the data below:

The following list ranks the top 10 countries where the largest numbers of U.S. physicians trained.


country no. of physicians (no. of med schools)

1. India 41,235 (164)
2. Philippines 19,449 (36) *
3. Mexico 12,168 (68 )**
4. Pakistan 9,755 (35)
5. Dominican Republic 6,988 (16)
6. Former USSR 5,104 (64)
7. Italy 4,871 (36)
8. Egypt 4,731 (16)
9. South Korea 4,629 (50)
10. China and Hong Kong 4,537 (165)

Sources:
AMA Membership Department
As of December 31, 2003

IMED
Current as of 14 Jan 2005

*2 med schools closed long time ago and 1 is not a conventional med school but a rural medical education experiment-- educating 10-20 medical students in the field annually while working directly with the rural patients from first year to sixth. first 2 years, they work as medical assistants, then next 2, as nurses, then the last 2 years, they work towards their MD's.

**mexico's numbers are high too but there is an obvious reason for its high performance: guadalajara where most of the students are americans.

i challenge you to show these data to statisticians. they will say the same thing that the numbers of the Philippines are impressive. there is no other reason this statistical anomaly can be attributed to but to the quality of the medical education in the philippines and english as a medium of medical education.

again, the quality of an IMG's medical knowledge and training is tested through USMLE, nothing else. If USMLE has nothing to do with the quality of education this IMG has, then USMLE has failed its goals. if not to screen the IMG's readiness to practice medicine in the US, then what is USMLE for? stop playing dumb.

wow. you sure can infer a lot of information from unrelated stats....

some questions to consider...what other issues may explain the difference in numbers....well, visa issues, culture issues, being offered jobs, etc....

passing the USMLE is not the only thing that gets docs to the US!

while i agree that it is impressive that so many docs from the philippines get here from 36 schools, i think you are realy, really, realllllllly oversimplifying it.

the point that people here are attempting to show you, and what you refuse to grasp is that you are making great leaps of interpretation based on data that has many, many other explanations.

the fact is, it is nearly impossible to assess the "quality" of a medical education. the USMLE is merely a test that the NBME feel reflects a basic level of knowledge that they hope med students have aqquired. it does NOT imply anything about quality of medical education....i don't know where you get this. it implies a minimum level of competence. period.

so, saying that a school is better based on this data is ridiculous. even if you did use USMLE as a gauge, the number of passers is not significant without knowing how many took it, how many passed on what attempt, etc...additionally, if you say that the USMLE determines the quality of an education, shouldn't more weight be given to schools that produce high scorers? we don't have that info...

so, please, please, please....stop reading too much into these numbers that you find. all you can say from the data is exactly what the data say. that lots of docs from the philipines pass the usmle and work in the states. that is all these numbers are saying!

[rdecastro]

And you're still wrong. Asking the wrong questions doesn't support your arguments.

http://pr.caltech.edu/media/commence/mastsci.html

There are three of four Masters in Mathematics degree awardees listed in 1998, for example.

And you still don't have a clue about analysis.

castro, give this issue a rest and make up your mind. you were the one who said the MS program was scrapped out after you graduated.

again, if you apply for MS in math, caltech will tell you they only accept PhD applicants. Call caltech yourself so you will shut up.

OK, this post is close-captioned for the thinking impaired:

CalTech offered MS in Math degrees until AT LEAST 1998. The CalTech website I quoted shows that. I graduated in 1992. Thats BEFORE 1998.

Now, I never said that CalTech offers degrees in Math now. I got mine 13 years ago. Try and understand, THATS BEFORE 1998, AND BEFORE you called CalTech.

You're the one who called me a liar. I have provided evidence from CalTech's own website showing that they did offer the degree that I received. I don't need to call CalTech, you see, I ALREADY HAVE THE DEGREE. The one that CalTech's own website confirms they offered in the past, and the one that you insist is impossible to get.

So, instead of calling people liars when you're incapable of rational thought, why not go apply to podiatrist or chiropractor school? Since you're unable to conduct analysis of tabular data, you probably shouldn't attempt anything more strenuous. Go learn to "adjust" someone.

Now, you can claim that you're right and I'm wrong, but I've offered evidence from a CalTech website that shows quite simply that you're not only wrong, you're being quite ignorant in refusing to admit that you're wrong. All you've offered is evidence that is quite simply unimportant to the issue at hand: It doesn't matter who you called (if you in fact called anyone), or what the current programs at CalTech are now, neither of which matter a single bit. And it's your insistance on this totally immaterial "proof" of nothing more than your own instransigence that leads me to tell you, to STFU.

[asianTSwantsMD]

you are wrong again.

caltech scrapped out nothing.

they still award MS in Math to Phd dropouts or those who discontinue in the middle of their Phd program who write MS theses.

make your info right.

[asianTSwantsMD]

wow. you sure can infer a lot of information from unrelated stats....

some questions to consider...what other issues may explain the difference in numbers....well, visa issues, culture issues, being offered jobs, etc....

if there are limiting factors that affect the number of IMG's coming to the US, they adversely affect filipino local IMG's.

visa. philippines is not a preferred country by the immigration due to the burgeoning population of filipino-americans.

culture? who doesn't have an american dream? come on. even a bushman in kalahari wants to see manhattan.

mind you, medicine is not a popular career/job for US immigration in the philippines. a lot of filipino doctors go back to school and earn nursing degrees so they can come here.


passing the USMLE is not the only thing that gets docs to the US!

well that is the most important one. it is idiotic to say that there are filipinos who take and pass USMLE knowing their chances of coming to america is nil. exam registration fees are worth 1 year of one's living and food allowance. reviewing is a huge effort. kaplan materials are expensive relative to pesos. who would wanna waste time, money, and effort for nothing? that's why the number of USMLE takers in the philippines should be low, way lower than my estimate of 500 in 2002.

while i agree that it is impressive that so many docs from the philippines get here from 36 schools, i think you are realy, really, realllllllly oversimplifying it.

again, study the data and research the factors that make the philippine's numbers high. think out of the box.

the point that people here are attempting to show you, and what you refuse to grasp is that you are making great leaps of interpretation based on data that has many, many other explanations.

statistics is not a mere literal interpretation of numbers. check how actuarial firms do their election surveys. they infer a lot of things from simple numbers because common sense warrants it. it is perfectly sound to use limited quantitative data to supprt a qualitative observation. if statistics should be literal, we would not have a business of calculating margin of error.

the fact is, it is nearly impossible to assess the "quality" of a medical education. the USMLE is merely a test that the NBME feel reflects a basic level of knowledge that they hope med students have aqquired. it does NOT imply anything about quality of medical education....i don't know where you get this. it implies a minimum level of competence. period.

if indeed you are right, where are the IMG's from african countries? the reality is contrary to your view. take egypt as an example. among arabic countries, egypt has the best medical education. AMA numbers support that. that is an obvious correlation between quality and quantity.

so, saying that a school is better based on this data is ridiculous. even if you did use USMLE as a gauge, the number of passers is not significant without knowing how many took it, how many passed on what attempt, etc...additionally, if you say that the USMLE determines the quality of an education, shouldn't more weight be given to schools that produce high scorers? we don't have that info...

take SAT's as an example. US high schools give emphasis on the number of SAT passers not SAT acers. SAT pass rate not SAT average score is used to assess the quality of a high school. US universities use SAT average score to assess the composition of the incoming freshmen after considering the fact that all university freshman students pass SAT.

so, please, please, please....stop reading too much into these numbers that you find. all you can say from the data is exactly what the data say. that lots of docs from the philipines pass the usmle and work in the states. that is all these numbers are saying!

again quantitative data are often used to support qualitative propositions. saying george bush won the red states because of fundamentalist christians even without extensive statistical data on the number of atheists, agnostics, moslems, buddhists, etc. who voted but the general election result is sound and acceptable. this is due to other existing data on the number of fundamentalist churches/religions in reds states. if you question this, ask MIT and Caltech statistics professors who did the voting pattern studies.

[jgilbert63]

if you question this, ask MIT and Caltech statistics professors who did the voting pattern studies.[/b]

Would the Caltech professor have to have an Masters or PhD?

[asianTSwantsMD]

if you question this, ask MIT and Caltech statistics professors who did the voting pattern studies.[/b]

Would the Caltech professor have to have an Masters or PhD?

that's out of the blue. there are professors even at oxford without BA's.

[neilc]

well, asian....i am signing out. it is like talking to a wall. your analysis is way off, for many reasons that have been pointed out before. but, if that is what the data say to you, then hey...

most people would agree that the number of practicing grads in this country from the philippines, or the number of test passers has no correlation to quality.

anyhow, it is too much. your rambling nonsensical posts give me a headache....

[asianTSwantsMD]

well, asian....i am signing out. it is like talking to a wall. your analysis is way off, for many reasons that have been pointed out before. but, if that is what the data say to you, then hey...

most people would agree that the number of practicing grads in this country from the philippines, or the number of test passers has no correlation to quality.

anyhow, it is too much. your rambling nonsensical posts give me a headache....

that's normal. it's hard to understand when you refuse to.

[neilc]

that's normal. it's hard to understand when you refuse to.

not that i don't want to. it is that YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY YOUR DATA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

good luck in med school. you should prob head off to the philipines, as they are the best, right?

hey, aren't these schools the exact same ones that you were saying sucked in another thread, that you could just buy your degree from without ever having attended classes....and, if you can do that, and pass the usmle, you would be working in the states, right? and, you would have passed the usmle? so....if you have the degree, pass the usmle and come to the states....then your school MUST be awesome...

passing the USMLE has little or nothing to do with school quality. it is a function of the work the individual put into it.

[asianTSwantsMD]

that's normal. it's hard to understand when you refuse to.

not that i don't want to. it is that YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY YOUR DATA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

good luck in med school. you should prob head off to the philipines, as they are the best, right?

hey, aren't these schools the exact same ones that you were saying sucked in another thread, that you could just buy your degree from without ever having attended classes....and, if you can do that, and pass the usmle, you would be working in the states, right? and, you would have passed the usmle? so....if you have the degree, pass the usmle and come to the states....then your school MUST be awesome...

passing the USMLE has little or nothing to do with school quality. it is a function of the work the individual put into it.

i already gave you a layman's example how limited statistical data are used in qualitative studies. read my bush example.

the cali-approved philippine schools i trashed are the same schools local med students avoid. if i have to consider them in my analysis, the total number of USMLE takers in 2002 would even go lower. the students from these schools can't even pass the local board exam. it would be a waste of time, effort, and money if they attempt USMLE.

again, fatima and angeles are good examples of quality-quantity correlation in medical board exam.

by the way I am going to cuba because i don't have to spend a dime for my medical education, and they train good rural medical doctors.

[Conway]

Cuba? I've never heard that before. Where are you going?

But if you decide not to reply, have fun in Cuba! I hear they have great beaches, but it's a country of mystery to US citizens who aren't allowed to go there! What made you decide on Cuba? Are you a Cuban citizen?

[asianTSwantsMD]

Cuba? I've never heard that before. Where are you going?

But if you decide not to reply, have fun in Cuba! I hear they have great beaches, but it's a country of mystery to US citizens who aren't allowed to go there! What made you decide on Cuba? Are you a Cuban citizen?

i am asian. i am going to cuba because i got a scholarship. if you are from a minority under-represented group who have an interest in a 6 year MD program in cuba, e-mail me.

[Conway]

I am curious about the program, but you haven't given the option of PMing, Emailing, or any other form of communication.

Though I've already applied to one school, I am curious about the program. (I am Asian.)

[Conway]

I've found some information on the wonderful realm of google regarding a program initiated by Castro to train American doctors. Sounds pretty hard core to me. Don't know if this is the one you're in, but best of luck! The inspection of beds and teaching in Spanish...well, best of luck!

http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/cuba/uscuba/539.html

http://academic.udayton.edu/health/02organ/providers01.htm

And a bunch of collected news articles:

http://www.ifconews.org/mednews2.html

[Scott1981]

ive heard about the cuba med school program. i may be mistaken, but i remember reading something a couple of months ago about the US government suspending the exemption waivers for med school students there and forcing the US citizens to come home early. i just remember the outroar from the students who had to stop studying to avoid fines when they get home. didnt follow up on the article though.

------about the other topic of this thread........ WHO CARES ANYMORE!!!!!
it was beat into the ground......... and it only took 6 pages to do it :roll:

[wolfvgang22]

http://img14.exs.cx/img14/7916/whocares3.jpg

[asianTSwantsMD]

http://img14.exs.cx/img14/7916/whocares3.jpg

posting such an image is an effort. now, who did care?

[B:-)]

Hi AsianTCwantsMD,

I wouldn't argue that my med school was better than yours, as I didn't attend yours, but what is that you're trying to say? Statistics may favor Philippines, so what? It only means that the school system has been so adjusted to the American way that you guys easily pass USMLEs. Does it make you better doctors in the future? I think it highly depends on the individual's capability. Do you feel superior to us because you can easily pass USMLEs? Look at some FMGs that came from countries where hardly ever anybody takes these tests, had very little information about the literature and test taking strategies, were never taught in English, had no access to Q-banks or Kaplan prep courses and still ended up having high scores! That I think is rather a thing to brag about.
B

[azskeptic]

Nothing like a med school in a country that lacks medicines except for the rich tourists. The locals are forced to chew on bark for pain relief.

What kind of training can the people get? Vast majority of the docs who came out of Cuba in the past have been unable to pass the US licensing exams. That is why they are now doing MD to RN degree programs in Florida.

[shockandawe]

Who cares, they are CA approved. If they are CA approved that must mean they are an excellent place to get an education. You guys know that only CA approve the best schools on the planet. -s&a

[shockandawe]

passing the USMLE has little or nothing to do with school quality. it is a function of the work the individual put into it.

Neilc, you must be the best basher-contradictory person in this forum, but, at least, you are the best at something. With that statement, you just contradicted everything that you so-called stand for... You have come into this forum and preached "USMLE pass rates, licensure, residency placement". Over and over and over again, to the point that we want to throw up... I don't even think that you realise that everyone can see right thru you.

Everything for you neilc is just white or black. You either go to sgu, ross, auc, the Czech republic or you are not worthy... You and your so-called "established schools"... Just ridiculous nonsense... Basically, you are just put into this forum to argue rubbish and contradict everyone, including yourself. -s&a

[asianTSwantsMD]

they just can't accept the fact that there are high-performing med schools out there for just $2,000 a year.

they contradict themselves because they can't fathom the fact that a small country like philippines can compete with their own "ideal" schools.

get this: an IMG from a so-so med school in the Philippines became a neurology professor at john hopkins. i guess, to use their frame of thought, one's teaching ability/skills has nothing to do with the quality of one's school and medical training.

that's just one school. there are even harvard and UCSF professors. it seems Filipino IMG's love teaching. I wonder what kind of stuff they teach if the quality of their med schools have nothing to do with their medical skills and knowledge that made them hurdle USMLE in the first place.

[asianTSwantsMD]

Nothing like a med school in a country that lacks medicines except for the rich tourists. The locals are forced to chew on bark for pain relief.

What kind of training can the people get? Vast majority of the docs who came out of Cuba in the past have been unable to pass the US licensing exams. That is why they are now doing MD to RN degree programs in Florida.





The following list ranks the top 20 countries where the largest numbers of U.S. physicians trained. This data does not represent citizenship or ethnic origin, it only represents the location of medical schools.


India - 19.5% (41,235)
Philippines - 9.2% (19,449)
Mexico - 5.7% (12,168)
Pakistan - 4.6% (9,755)
Dominican Republic - 3.3% (6,988)
Former USSR - 2.4% (5,104)
Italy - 2.3% (4,871)
Egypt - 2.2% (4,731)
South Korea - 2.2% (4,629)
China and Hong Kong - 2.1% (4,537)
Spain - 2.1% (4,514)
Germany - 2.1% (4,302)
Grenada - 1.9% (4,183)
Iran - 1.9% (4,104)
Syria - 1.5% (3,235)
United Kingdom - 1.4% (3,112)
Cuba - 1.4% (2,999)
Taiwan - 1.3% (2,833)
Israel - 1.3% (2,735)
Lebanon 1.3% (2,719)

TOTAL IMG Population in U.S. - 23.5% (210,952)

[shockandawe]

There is this little valuemd mafia-communist-big-brother-regime, which includes people like neilc, rrod, azskeptic, and others which believe that you can only go to one of "their" so-called "established" schools or they will do anything in their power to bash anybody that shows anything of the contrary.

First, they start by denying everything and then when they get their backs to the wall, when you show them case after case after case of success stories, they make statements such as "passing the USMLE has little or nothing to do with school quality. it is a function of the work the individual put into it."

Well, well... If that is the case, then we do not give a crap about your sgu, auc, and ross... So much for your "establishment..." The Phillippines have 50 state approval, top USMLE scorers and residency placement in places like Harvard and beyond... AsianTS you are talking to a wall when you try and reason with bashers... They cannot reason, it is beyond their comprehension that their so-called selected nonsense establishment is bogus.. They will probably never get it. Thus they prefer living in denial.

I feel embarrassed that in your introduction to this forum, AsianTS, you have to deal with such nonsense as what these bashers propagate. Please know that not eveyone here is that ridiculous and ignorant. -s&a

[neilc]

There is this little valuemd mafia-communist-big-brother-regime, which includes people like neilc, rrod, azskeptic, and others which believe that you can only go to one of "their" so-called "established" schools or they will do anything in their power to bash anybody that shows anything of the contrary.

First, they start by denying everything and then when they get their backs to the wall, when you show them case after case after case of success stories, they make statements such as "passing the USMLE has little or nothing to do with school quality. it is a function of the work the individual put into it."

Well, well... If that is the case, then we do not give a crap about your sgu, auc, and ross... So much for your "establishment..." The Phillippines have 50 state approval, top USMLE scorers and residency placement in places like Harvard and beyond... AsianTS you are talking to a wall when you try and reason with bashers... They cannot reason, it is beyond their comprehension that their so-called selected nonsense establishment is bogus.. They will probably never get it. Thus they prefer living in denial.

I feel embarrassed that in your introduction to this forum, AsianTS, you have to deal with such nonsense as what these bashers propagate. Please know that not eveyone here is that ridiculous and ignorant. -s&a

i stand by that statement...the USMLE is largely a result of the effort an individual puts into it...that being said, the USMLE is NOT the be-all end all...you need much much more than that to get a license.

my recommendations have always been to attend a school that has good licensability (in all 50 states), good residency placements, and a good record on the USMLE. why? well, you don't want to graduate and not be able to work in every state. that is stupid, when there is no good reason to go to a school that is not approved. and, don't give me this "i can't afford it crap". get a loan, like the rest of us do. it is ridiculous to limit your choices of where you can work, when you will have zero problem paying back your loans when you finish. why good residency placements? because it shows that the PD's at least know and respect the school. why good USMLE scores? because it shows that the school does its part by giving you the material you need...what you DO with that material is up to you...

now, i am sure that there are isolated success stories from all over the carib. certain folks will succeed wherever they are. the opposite is also true, certain folks will not get through, no matter which school they choose. however, the intelligent person will choose a school that provides him/her with the greatest opportunity to achieve thier goals. and, simply put, the smaller schools are not a good idea for the following reasons: untested licensability or restricted states, no established history, etc....

i am not out to bash any school. rather, i want students to have the real info. it is easy to get starry-eyed and dreamy, and imagine yourself overcoming all odds and suing the government or whatever else. what is important is that these folks are at least exposed to the reality, and given an idea of what is a realistic expectation...

and, just for the record, i am sure the philippine schools are a great way to get back to the states. certainly much better than spartan! i just took issue with the blanket statement that they are the best based on this evidence. the evidence asiantswantsmd presented did not support the conclusions.

another point: the QUALITY of a school really never has been the most important. as many have pointed out, "lower" quality schools still may have better licensing options. however unfair this may be, it is reality. so, as a med student you must play the game, and pick the school that will give you the most opportunities.

sorry, s&a, but no matter how you want to spin it, your school is far from a good option for 99% of those students out there. you MAY be able to do OK from spartan...but you WILL be limited. do not waste your time. there are many, many better schools (including the philippine schools) that will give you unlimited options.

[shockandawe]

There are people from Spartan that started at about the same time as you, Neilc, got much higher board scores than you and are now doing their residencies, while you are still in your 6 year program and by the time you graduate, they will probably be finished with residency and have jobs as licensed physicians. Not everyone cares about working in CA. You might. Good for you.

Maybe if you graduate in this century, you might have that chance. Maybe, that is a big maybe, because not having any USA clinical rotation experience puts you at a huge disadvantage to any and all carib grads, which are doing all of their rotations in the USA and not third world countries such as the Czech republic... I can't believe anyone from that place has the nerve to talk down to anyone in this forum. Just like a Saddam University grad talking down to us. But I hear that Saddam University graduates would be much more useful than Czech republic grads. At least, knowing Arabic is a more useful language in clinicals here.

I don't even know why anyone would go to the Czech to learn Czech, it must be the most useless language ever. If you want 50 state approval, go to Mexico or Spain or even China, at least someplace where you might use that language that you learn, in your practice. Spanish is probably the most important language right now. Going to the Czech Republic for medical school is a complete waste of time and money. That would probably be my last choice. Even Saddam University would be a better choice. Hey, Neilc, maybe you can still transfer. They have all 50 state approval. :lol: -s&a

[asianTSwantsMD]

i stand by that statement...the USMLE is largely a result of the effort an individual puts into it...

so is passing the bar. law graduates put much effort in reviewing and recalling law provisions, cases and arguments they learned when they were students. even a lab tech needs to review for his licensing exam. still what you learn from school equips you to pass any exam. you cannot self-teach yourself to learn medicine. you need clinical facilities and expertise of your professors. the quality of your school defines your skills. your view simply means that anyone can go to a mud hut school in africa and still he will pass USMLE if he exerts effort. well sir, that is pure speculation.

that being said, the USMLE is NOT the be-all end all...you need much much more than that to get a license.

wrong. i have 3 friends who are now ER nurses and 1 Pathologist assistant. all are medical graduates from india, turkey, and mexico. failing USMLE ended their dreams.

my recommendations have always been to attend a school that has good licensability (in all 50 states), good residency placements, and a good record on the USMLE. why? well, you don't want to graduate and not be able to work in every state. that is stupid, when there is no good reason to go to a school that is not approved. and, don't give me this "i can't afford it crap". get a loan, like the rest of us do. it is ridiculous to limit your choices of where you can work, when you will have zero problem paying back your loans when you finish. why good residency placements? because it shows that the PD's at least know and respect the school. why good USMLE scores? because it shows that the school does its part by giving you the material you need...what you DO with that material is up to you...

have you ever asked yourself why you hear a lot of MD's from harvard winning prizes and grants, discovering cure or pioneering medical procedures but not those from medical schools in alabama or idaho?

now, i am sure that there are isolated success stories from all over the carib. certain folks will succeed wherever they are. the opposite is also true, certain folks will not get through, no matter which school they choose. however, the intelligent person will choose a school that provides him/her with the greatest opportunity to achieve thier goals. and, simply put, the smaller schools are not a good idea for the following reasons: untested licensability or restricted states, no established history, etc....

schools nurture. what you have become as a doctor is because of your school and training. period.

i am not out to bash any school. rather, i want students to have the real info. it is easy to get starry-eyed and dreamy, and imagine yourself overcoming all odds and suing the government or whatever else. what is important is that these folks are at least exposed to the reality, and given an idea of what is a realistic expectation...

to be a parrot to cali board, i think, is not the sole purpose of this board. i still have to read a post from you that i can say an original result from your research/inquiries and unheard in previous posts. example, you could have asked russian medical schools if their English MD program is a distinct one, and needs cali approval since you are a moderator and pat park's megaphone. that info helps students not scares.

and, just for the record, i am sure the philippine schools are a great way to get back to the states. certainly much better than spartan! i just took issue with the blanket statement that they are the best based on this evidence. the evidence asiantswantsmd presented did not support the conclusions.

you cannot deny numbers. a few maybe a fluke, but many cases after cases are definitely telling you about consistency and quality.

another point: the QUALITY of a school really never has been the most important. as many have pointed out, "lower" quality schools still may have better licensing options. however unfair this may be, it is reality. so, as a med student you must play the game, and pick the school that will give you the most opportunities.

i challenge you to find a medical professor in the US who graduated from afghanistan or ethiopia. if you can find more than one, you win. IMG's from these schools were trained in herblology, astrology and palm reading in dealing with the sick. there you go your irrelevance of the quality of a medical school.

sorry, s&a, but no matter how you want to spin it, your school is far from a good option for 99% of those students out there. you MAY be able to do OK from spartan...but you WILL be limited. do not waste your time. there are many, many better schools (including the philippine schools) that will give you unlimited options.

i wish i had the guts to spill the beans. :-shut

[shockandawe]

i wish i had the guts to spill the beans. :-shut

Which beans??? You have more beans to spill!!!! AsianTS, now you know you have to tell us.. hee, hee, hee... :) -s&a

[stephew]

There is this little valuemd mafia-communist-big-brother-regime, You forgot fascist. how soon before the word "cabal" is rolled out? FYI, if youre still posting here, its highly unlikely there is a mafia communist bigbrohter regime going on. unless disagreeing with you constitues a M.C.BB. regime.

[shockandawe]

There is this little valuemd mafia-communist-big-brother-regime, You forgot fascist. how soon before the word "cabal" is rolled out? FYI, if youre still posting here, its highly unlikely there is a mafia communist bigbrohter regime going on. unless disagreeing with you constitues a M.C.BB. regime.

Her highness does not approve... -s&a

[Slick]

For RDECASTRO,

Give it up, chief... I'm not completely agreeing with the dude who claims Philippines has the best med school. However, I am inclined to believe him when he says you are "fabricating" your educational credentials.

Maybe a scanned jpg of your "diploma" from caltech would be your proof.

Slick

[paki]

I m sure philipines have best medical college but dont say that pak has so many medical college
we have very few only 17 med colleges . But very competetive producing best dr of world.
dont say india pak same we r two diff countries of two diff identities pak is not even 1/3 of indias population.
no hard feeling
just to correct ur approach.