ATTENDANCE POLICY ON SABA

[bigguy]

I've read that attendance is required for all lectures. I was surprised because I've never heard of a graduate program taking attendance. Graduate school is supposed to be self-motivated and directed, with lectures as an adjunct to guided independent study.

Some learning theorists believe that there are two types of learners; those that learn from the spoken word (who would profit from lectures) and those who learn visually, from the written word. I definitely learn from the written word.

I have a B.A., and a law degree, and with the exception of some humanities classes, I can't really remember any lectures that were a good substitute for textbook learning. Fortunately, my undegrad and grad programs didn't require attendance.....and I rarely attended.

My concern is that the lectures will actually take away from my time for study, and impede my preparation for the USLME.

I'm sure some of you have opinions about this subject.

Please share. Oy veh, I'm getting Fhclempt....talk amongst ya'selves!

Linda Richman

[scoobz1981]

The attendence policy is strictly inforced. They take attendence at the beginning of class, and sometimes at the end too to make sure you didn't leave have way through.

I myself am also a text book learner and I get NOTHING out of Lecture. What I did during my 5 semesters on SABA was I put my headphones in my ears and studied. This was very usefull cause at least then I wasn't wasting the 8 hours a day of lecture time. Then, it came to my knowledge that the professors complained to administration that I wasn't paying attention and that made administration upset with me. So, my recommendation is just pay "attention in lecture" even if that means just keeping your eyes glued onto the professor no matter how good or bad he is (that way you won't disrespect him like I did) and day dream instead about the real world.

To be honest, I am surprised that with your law degree you didnt get accepted to a US school in a flash!


Val

[wolfvgang22]

Some states require that a med school mandate 80% attendance in order to license graduates from a med school, that's at least partially why Saba has the attendance rules.

As far as attending lecture, like taking the pre-req courses, etc., it's just another one of those hoops we gotta jump through, I guess. At least it's an easy hoop this time.

[bigguy]

Thanks once again Val. One of your posts was what actually triggered my inquiry. I wanted to see how the other students felt. Actually, Saba is the only school I applied to. I have no physics, so going U.S. would have taken me another year, regardless of the law degree. I'm 38, so I've got to be in and out quick if I'm going to do this. That's my main reason for choosing Saba.

Bigguy

[krust3]

i for one like attending lecture. the structure and repitition work for me, but it is funky that they track us like five year olds.

[Conway]

i for one like attending lecture. the structure and repitition work for me, but it is funky that they track us like five year olds.

I agree completely - though if it helps us w/ licensure in more states in the long run, why not? It's like our parents making us eat our green vegetables, otherwise we might not be so healthy today...

[krust3]

yeah, do whatever it takes to remain a legit school in the eyes of the u.s. licensing committees.

[scoobz1981]

I completely understand where people are coming from who like lectures. I just don't. Also, it is true that for licensure in some states, we must have a certain percentage of attendence, which I think is justified. 90% attendence is now what SABA hold you to (i.e. you can skip 1 day every 2 weeks - 7 days per term).

Val

[Conway]

Hm...not to make this complicated, but what if someone is throwing up and has the runs...and they're too ill to even walk without falling over - would the administration understand that you're legitimately ill?

Though that is very rare - I have never missed a class during my 1.5 years at undergraduate thus far on purpose. Only missed one "mass media" class because my alarm just didn't wake me up :oops: I've been late to about 3 or 4 classes, though... :P

[scoobz1981]

Nope... u miss it, too bad. That is why you have the 7 absences for the term. So don't waste em! I even got marked absent cause someone from administration came to get me out of class for something for 10 minutes, and when I saw the roll, my checkmark was erased, and I was absent! TADA! I didn't see the prof again for a week, and when I asked him about it, he said I should have talked to him about it earlier. LOL. Too funny... anywho


Val

[sprvs]

I personally find lectures very helpful eventhough I have tendency to miss a lot of them. It increases my interest to the subject by at least two fold. I tend to do better if I attend lectures.

[scoobz1981]

The only lecture I EVER found interesting was in a phylosophy class in University talking about FREUD all year long. That was entertaining! Other than that.... Zzzz... Zzzz... Zzzzz... Zzzz... you get the picture.

Val

[wolfvgang22]

The only lecture I EVER found interesting was in a phylosophy class in University talking about FREUD all year long. That was entertaining! Other than that.... Zzzz... Zzzz... Zzzzz... Zzzz... you get the picture.

Val
Val, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar! :lol:

[scoobz1981]

Not if the cigar is in your dream, and you happen to have a thing for your mother, and want to kill your father. Damn Freud.

Val

[DSMMD]

First off, be careful entering Saba without classes such as physics as some states require you to have this for licensure (NJ being one).

As for attendance, true some people learn better on their own and some people learn better in lectures. However, the fact is that you may attend a lecture and get 1 thing out of it which changes the way you will approach a situation in the future.

There is an attendance policy for a reason. For those of you who think about skipping classes or do self-studying during the time the instructors are teaching, would you consider skipping out on rounds in your 3rd or 4th year or reading while the attending is discussing a patient? It is really no different.

[wolfvgang22]

DSMMD: Hey you old timer! It's good to see you around here once in a while. Thanks for your advice, I appreciate it!

[bigguy]

Hello DSMMD

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR FEEDBACK, AND YOUR POINT ABOUT THE PHYSICS PREREQ INTRIGUED ME. NOT TO BE ARGUMENTATIVE ( I APPRECIATE THE TIME OF EVERYONE WHO POSTS ON THIS FORUM), BUT AFTER READING 126 PAGES OF THE State of New Jersey, Division of Consumer Affairs Centralized Licensing STATUTES ON MEDICAL LICENSING (AND GOSH, THAT'S A FUN READ) I CONCLUDED THE LACK OF PREREQS DOESN'T PRECLUDE LICENSURE IN NEW JERSEY. AGAIN, I'M NOT ARGUING, AND IF MY READ ON IT IS WRONG, PLEASE LET ME KNOW, BUT JUST FOR CLARIFICATION TO FUTURE READERS, I FOUND THESE SECTIONS TO BE RELEVANT:

13:35–1.2 Fifth Pathway
(a) The Board shall accept application for licensure from an applicant who does not meet the usual statutory prerequisites
for educational background, in the following circumstances to be known as the Fifth Pathway:
1. The applicant has completed the entirety of the academic curriculum in residence at a medical school in a foreign
country located outside of the United States, Puerto Rico or Canada or in a school-authorized clinical training program;
2. The medical school was approved throughout the applicant’s period of education by the government of the country of
domicile to confer the degree of Doctor of Medicine and Surgery or its equivalent, and was listed in the World Health
Organization Directory;
3. The applicant has satisfactorily completed all the requirements for a matriculated student of that foreign medical
school to receive a diploma, except for internship and/or social service;
4. The applicant has achieved a passing score on a screening examination acceptable to the Educational Commission on
Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG) even though not eligible for ECFMG certification; and
5. The applicant has had his or her academic record reviewed and approved by a medical school approved by the Liaison
Committee on Medical Education, which school has accepted the applicant in a one-academic-year program of supervised
clinical training under its direction, and the applicant has satisfactorily completed that program as evidenced by receipt
of a certificate issued by the sponsoring medical school.
(b) The applicant meeting the requirements in (a) shall thereafter be deemed by the Board to be eligible to enter a
graduate training program approved by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) or the
American Osteopathic Association (AOA). Upon satisfactory completion of the three years of post-graduate training
required by N.J.A.C. 13:35–3.11, the applicant may apply for licensure in this State.

128 STATE BOARD OF MEDICAL EXAMINERS STATUTES AND REGULATIONS
(b) No unlicensed person shall engage in the practice of medicine or podiatry in the first year of a graduate medical
education program unless and until he or she is registered with the Board. No unlicensed person shall engage in the
practice of medicine or podiatry in the second year of graduate medical education or beyond unless or until he or she has
been issued a permit by the Board.
(c) A registration applicant shall certify that he or she:
1. Has attained the preliminary educational prerequisites for licensure, including:
i. Completion of at least 60 undergraduate level credits, at a college or university attained prior to medical or podiatric
school. With respect to medical residents, the credits shall include at least one course each in biology, chemistry and
physics.

(f) A registration applicant unable to certify that he or she has attained the prerequisites set forth at (c) above shall state
on the registration application form the reason that he or she is unable to so certify. The Director seeking to offer
employment to a registration applicant unable to certify that he or she has attained all the prerequisites, may seek from
the Board a waiver which would enable the applicant to participate in the first year of a graduate medical education
program. The Board, in its discretion, may grant or withhold such waiver for good cause. However, in no event may the
applicant begin participating until the waiver for good cause request has been granted and the individual’s name included
on the list of registered residents or temporary authorization has been granted pursuant to (g) below.

(c) The Board in its discretion may waive up to 30 of the required credits and/or all or part of the required subjects if the
credentials presented include:
1. Proof of successful completion of the full term of a fellowship program accredited by the Accreditation Council on
Graduate Medical Education or the American Osteopathic Association acceptable to the Board; or
2. Satisfactory completion of at least three years’ clinical training gained through either a residency program or programs
that satisfy three years of a nationally prescribed course of training in one discipline pursuant to Accreditation Council on
Graduate Medical Education or American Osteopathic Association accreditation standards for a particular specialty.
(d) The Board in its discretion may waive any or all of the required subjects if the credentials presented include proof of
a score of 80 on each part of the Federation Licensing Examination or the Uniform State Medical Licensing Examination.

SO MY READ IS THAT THE FIFTH PATHWAY NEGATES THE UNDERGRAD PREREQUISITES, OR EVEN IF THAT'S NOT THE CASE, THAT THE REQUIREMENT WILL BE WAIVED UPON COMPLETION OF RESIDENCY.

HOWEVER, YOU DO RAISE AN INTERESTING POINT. I WENT THROUGH THE STATUTES OF ABOUT 5 STATES, AND ALL OF THEM, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CALIFORNIA ARE POORLY DRAFTED AND VAGUE. ONE INTERESTING THING THAT I FOUND WAS THAT FLORIDA DOESN'T REQUIRE UNDERGRAD PHYSICS, BUT IT DOES REQUIRE UNDERGRAD ANATOMY. I'M SURE, LIKE NEW JERSERY THERE'S A WAY AROUND IT. ALSO INTERESTING WAS THAT MOST STATES MAY REFUSE/REVOKE LICENSURE FOR ANY CRIMINAL ACT WHATSOEVER.....HOWEVER, FLORIDA ONLY STIPULATES CRIMAL ACTS RELATED TO THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE. IT'S NICE TO KNOW I HAVE A FALLBACK IN FLORIDA, IF I EVER GO POSTAL IN NEW YORK.

THANKS AGAIN. :D

[wolfvgang22]

Attending and graduating from Saba is not the same as going the 5th pathway route.

[Conway]

There are quite a few students who had/have residencies in NJ, and a few who have licenses there from Saba. Thus as an institution, the pre-req requirement of the school as a whole shouldn't have that great of an impact.

http://saba.edu/residency.php

[Bob2k]

I'm sorry but that analogy about skipping class being just like skipping out on a discussion by an attending regarding a patient.......that is so stupid I have to respond even though I don't even go to Saba and have no vested interest in any policy there.

The two situations are totally different because in the latter, there is no textbook you can pick up to get the same information. Every patient is unique and as a clinical student your basic responsibility is to be there and engaged.

As a basic sciences student your priority is different, namely to master the material in a thorough and proficient way and be able to apply it in the clinical years and beyond.

Someone correctly pointed out there are audio vs. visual learners. So, if lecture floats your boat, then great.......have at it.

It is juvenile and asinine to erect policies that treat grown men and women like elementary school children. We are often told at SMU that the attendance thing is for state board accreditation and also because of internal research that shows a correlation between attendance and performance, namely the better the first then the better is the second.

Well, I don't know what data they are looking at. I know people who attended everything last term and failed out of one or two courses. Also know MANY and i emphasize that deliberately, who attended NOTHING except exams and sometimes labs and aced everything.

About the licensing/accreditation thing, supposedly states impose this rule to ensure the school is not a diploma mill.

Well, guess what. There are many more aspects to a diploma mill than just this. You can have a super tight system which ensures all the third graders....er, med students, all go to class daily and still be running a total third rate sham of a school, i.e. a diploma mill.

Personally, I despise the attendance policy and I got great grades across the board last term. But no thanks to that damn thing. I did what someone else mentioned on this thread and what half the class does, put on headphones and blocked out the reality of wasting several hrs daily on a much much slower recitation of the material than i would have had in the privacy and comfort of my room.

And anyway, half the class just signs in the other half who never show up. It only ends up hurting the people who, on principle, refuse to consistently violate school policy, however retarded it is, from start to finish of the term.

This is probably my biggest point of anger and regret with myself for not working harder in college to get into a u.s. allopathic program, the fact that i must now submit to being tracked for attendance like some idiot middle schooler.

[Bob2k]

sorry, double post.

[scoobz1981]

LOL... wow... i felt the same way

Again, I completely understand where the school is coming from, in that for us to keep licensure, our students MUST attend. We are as they say "STUCK BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE". I just wish that SABA didn't look upon you having earphones in so unfavorably and that the professors there wouldn't take it so personally that is all! Oh, well.... I am done on the island so who am I to complain.

Oh, and on SABA, there is NO SIGN IN SHEET. The professors call roll. If you aren't there, then you are absent, no signing in other people. Sorry folks. Thats a good way to get your schools licensure pulled.


Val

[DSMMD]

If you want to play semantics, I can argue with you on this one too. There are a ton of medicine textbooks where you can learn medicine and probably actually learn more about some esoteric diseases that you will never see on rounding on any patients. Same thing with surgery, Ob-Gyn, etc. You get the point. You can sit at home and learn and "master the material" that way as well.

But, as you pointed out the goal of clinicals is to learn at the bedside and engage with other people. The same thing goes with attending classes. The professors have experience in various topics and may present one thing in lecture one day that may make you look at a patient in the future a little differently. YOu would not get the same thing had you read the textbook only. Also, I am sure that you are aware there are errors or outdated information in textbooks. The general rule of thumb is that many textbooks take several years to get to publication and then the current editions are out for several years. Therefore the material that may be in the books can be over 5 years old. It is the job of the professors to integrate what is in the textbook with what is in the current literature.

You may say that it is juvenile to enact policies for grown people; however, it is also extremely disrespectful to ignore people whose goal is to enable you to help others in the future.

I'm sorry but that analogy about skipping class being just like skipping out on a discussion by an attending regarding a patient.......that is so stupid I have to respond even though I don't even go to Saba and have no vested interest in any policy there.

The two situations are totally different because in the latter, there is no textbook you can pick up to get the same information. Every patient is unique and as a clinical student your basic responsibility is to be there and engaged.

As a basic sciences student your priority is different, namely to master the material in a thorough and proficient way and be able to apply it in the clinical years and beyond.

Someone correctly pointed out there are audio vs. visual learners. So, if lecture floats your boat, then great.......have at it.

It is juvenile and asinine to erect policies that treat grown men and women like elementary school children. We are often told at SMU that the attendance thing is for state board accreditation and also because of internal research that shows a correlation between attendance and performance, namely the better the first then the better is the second.

Well, I don't know what data they are looking at. I know people who attended everything last term and failed out of one or two courses. Also know MANY and i emphasize that deliberately, who attended NOTHING except exams and sometimes labs and aced everything.

About the licensing/accreditation thing, supposedly states impose this rule to ensure the school is not a diploma mill.

Well, guess what. There are many more aspects to a diploma mill than just this. You can have a super tight system which ensures all the third graders....er, med students, all go to class daily and still be running a total third rate sham of a school, i.e. a diploma mill.

Personally, I despise the attendance policy and I got great grades across the board last term. But no thanks to that darn thing. I did what someone else mentioned on this thread and what half the class does, put on headphones and blocked out the reality of wasting several hrs daily on a much much slower recitation of the material than i would have had in the privacy and comfort of my room.

And anyway, half the class just signs in the other half who never show up. It only ends up hurting the people who, on principle, refuse to consistently violate school policy, however retarded it is, from start to finish of the term.

This is probably my biggest point of anger and regret with myself for not working harder in college to get into a u.s. allopathic program, the fact that i must now submit to being tracked for attendance like some idiot middle schooler.

[scoobz1981]

Well, to sum up how I feel about this...

If people have a problem with me having my head phones in, then I don't understand why they can't be ADULTS about it, and tell me personally. I just don't see why these professors have to goto administration, instead of taking the first step and saying, listen, I just dont appreciate it. I mean, they are suppose to be the role models, and what kind of a role model goes and TADDLES!!! The first step they should do is say something. FOR EXAMPLE: In Dr. Dykstra's Microbiology class, he flat out says on DAY 1 he won't tolerate it, and EVERY STUDENT in there RESPECTS THAT, and EVERYONE pays ATTENTION 100% to what is going on in that class - even me (no headphones). The students RESPECT him because he tells it like it is and doesn't try to be your friend! He is your professor. I think my issue is that I CAN NOT RESPECT someone who DOESN'T GIVE RESPECT, and that is where I take issue with some of these professors. Also, some of the professors flat out tell you on DAY 1 they don't care what you do in class, and then half way through the semester yell at you for having your headphones in. Obviously they are confussed themselves on what they want!

And as for the comparison with surgery and other stuff, the last time I checked, during your clinicals you will be staring into a book VERY VERY often!!! So you will be self learning a heck of a lot. The fact that you spend the day with patients and an attending will help you get the attendings point of view and his main topics and ideas, but you will need to go to that text book for the rest!!! As for the comparison between class and clinicals... NOPE... It just doesn't fly with me

Val

[wolfvgang22]

Well, shame on you Val for believing a prof who says he/she "doesn't care what you do in class". :p You know better than that.... 8)

I'm just giving you a hard time. I've fallen for that one, too. Profs are trying to be "cool" with the students by making such silly statements they don't really mean, and it ends up back-firing. :D
As a teacher, I've stupidly done the same thing on occassion, and it always comes back to haunt me, no matter how good the students are. As far as expecting all profs to act like adults...well, in a perfect world that would be true. I know better than that now, too!

I look back on my undergrad chemistry courses and recall that back then I thought I could learn everything about chemistry that I needed to know from the books. I disliked one prof; he was pompous, disrespectful, and told me I'd never be a doctor. He was a reall butt hole. He told really stupid jokes that just weren't funny. But now that I have taught chemistry myself (something I thought I would never do), I really value many of the everyday applications of chemistry he talked about in class that I now share with my students.

At the time I hated the guy, but he showed us how to make or avoid making a variety of pharmaceuticals, real world hands-on uses of gas chromatography, solvents, explosives, breeder reactors, and even the practical processes involved in modern chemical engineering and research. He spent one class period teaching us all about chelation therapy, of all things, because there was a billboard right outside the school advertising it as a panacea. I came out of that class able to do chemistry using everday chemicals that can be purchased at the store to make almost anything. This has been invaluable to me as a chemistry teacher. I expect it may help me in some unforseen way in medicine one day, who knows?

The kicker is, none of that stuff was in our text book!

[petenwe]

if not for that policy, the class will be half empty sometimes especially when there is an exam.