IS CALI APPROVAL REALLY THAT IMPORTANT? I DON'T THINK SO.

[asianTSwantsMD]

In my understanding, cali approval is only important if you are a current student in a foreign med school wishing to transfer to another med school in cali. Getting accepted as a foreign transfer student to even the lowest tier med school in the US is almost impossible unless of course if you are the top 1 student of Oxford or Cambridge or you have discovered HIV/AIDS vaccine.

It is also important if you are an IMG wishing to do clerkship or residency in cali. This is very competitive. Cali clerkships are mostly set aside for students in the Caribbean and Mexico. Most US students pick cali for residency. If there are left for scramble, you will compete with Caribbean and Mexican trained IMG's. why compete for leftovers like a clerkship in Compton or residency in some hospitals in central LA neighborhood?

These are what I deem more important in selecting a foreign medical school:

Is your med school listed under IMED and WHO? IMED for ECFMG certification if you want to practice in America and WHO for volunteering around the world.

Does the hospital your school is affiliated with have cutting edge technology like computed tomography imaging, laparoscopy, cell culture, osteogenesis, medical laser, etc.? You need to be exposed into these technologies so you won't be shocked or look dumb during your residency in the US. Just imagine if you are a resident in pathology and you haven't tried or used electron microscope because what you had in your med school was the simple light ones or you haven't heard of telemicroscopy or microscopy digital imaging. that will really affect your confidence and crush your ego. this ignorance won't be a bliss.

Do you have a good hands-on and exposure in a clinical environment of varied patient population? This will boost your confidence and help you get rid of your inhibitions and phobias. It will give you a good training too in multifaceted doctor-patient interaction and bedside manners. a school hospital of 50-100 beds is not a good place to encounter patients with different cases and learn different diseases.

Does the school prepare you well in basic medical sciences in your first two or three years in the program enough to get above average USMLE 1 score? By the way, you can challenge USMLE 1 after you complete all basic sciences. You don't have to wait after graduation. This is good because those courses/lessons/theories/books are still fresh in your mind.

Does your program have adequate time spent in all clinical rotations? More time spent on patients/hospitals, more clinical knowledge gained. that is if you are not wasting your time.

Will your professors expose or involve you in their research? This is good for resume building. Even if your job under your professor is just to collect patients' data like their names and addresses, take it. You can rename that job to sound clinical in your resume as "clinical data analyst," "clinical case specialist" or simply "clinical research assistant." This is not lying. You are part of a research team, where you happen to have no job specification.

Will the last two or three years of your program really give you a very good clinical knowledge important in USMLE 2? This is where, if you are a student pastry chef, you prove that you can do an almost perfect meringue, and that you are indeed a well-trained chef.

Now, the rotation or clerkship. I would finish all my rotation in my school outside of the US. Then do a 12-week rotation in the US. If you are willing to pay, you can do clerkship anywhere as long as you pass USMLE 1 and/or USMLE 2. Harvard Medical Center, for instance, charges like 10 grand for a 12-week clerkship.

American hospitals are too malpractice lawsuit-conscious. I don't think if they will ever allow you to deliver a baby, not just assist, during your rotation. i heard third year med students in asia and mexico are allowed to perform even c-section and other minor surgeries. those clinical experiences are rare in the US. so finishing a full rotation outside the US is an advantage indeed if you think of medical knowledge and clinical experiences.

For me, US clerkship is important for showing off your clinical knowledge and for your resume. This is the best way to prove to the americans that you are not a product of a medical diploma mill abroad. Rotate only in clinical courses where you can outstandingly show off your clinical skills. For instance, if you are lucky, you can stitch a patient's cut under a US doc's supervision. Your suturing skills and how clean you work, meaning blood, puss, dirty gauze and cottons are not all over, will impress your supervising surgeon. that is one letter of recommendation or preference already that will back you up in your residency application.

Psychiatry is good too. This is a good area where you can literally display your skills in patient charting and patient psychiatric profiling. If you are lucky again, maybe you can discuss psychiatric stuff with your supervisor. I think in this field you can bullshit a little bit. good area to show off. Just make it sure you know what you are talking about. If you are trying to impress your supervisor about neuropsychiatry be sure that you have a good background in both neurology and psychiatry. you might end up scratching your head.

Medical services in america is patient-oriented. american doctors are paranoid of lawsuits. Bedside manners are important. My sister, who is a cardiologist in nyc, told me that they were taught in med school how to ask proper questions, gesture or touch a patient to comfort him/her, and deal with a patient according to gender, race, religion and social background. I think OB-GYNE is the best for this kind of experience. Women are very particular of bedside manners. they are very appreciative too. even for just a pap smear or a prenatal sonogram, if you treat them good, they will write or tell your supervisor how nice you are. that is indeed a plus point.

Why do you need to impress your clerkship supervisors? You need them as references for your residency. Besides, you need to let them know that you are well trained too like US graduates. american med schools and hospitals tend to look down on IMG's medical training. If they find you to be excellent, in their minds you are one of the few IMG's who should be recommended for a good residency. Residency in the US is through merit, connection and luck. it is possible to do your residency where you do your clekship. that's why you need to have a good rapport with your clerkship supevisors. They might know someone who can help you during scramble.

Which is more important: a letter of recommendation from the dean of your medical school in Poland who has published a lot on Polish medical journals or a part time lecturer/clinical supervisor in a US medical school/hospital who has not even co-publish something? Unfortunately, the latter has more weight. Swallow your pride even if your physiology professor in Poland was a Nobel nominee. That means nothing in the US.

Now after passing USMLE 1 and 2, doing your clerkship, and finishing your residency in the US like all other US-trained doctors, I don't see why you cannot practice in California. California licensing law is legislative in nature. Cali lawmakers can amend it anytime, and licensing laws are open to various interpretation and implementation. For example, the cali board says "Medical Schools Recognized by the Medical Board of California " not "Medical School Programs Recognized by the Medical Board of California." In this case, English MD programs of the cali board approved schools in Poland are not really cali board approved or disapproved because they don't need to have an approval. Cali approves med schools not MD programs.

Take the case of my primary care physician 3 years ago in orange county in southern California as an example. He got his MD from Spartan in the Caribbean. Spartan is not cali approved yet he practiced in cali. I think cali physician licensing is dealt with in a case-to-case basis. That's why it takes 8 months to process a cali physician license application. Unfortunately, only michigan accepts reciprocity

If ECFMG certified an IMG, who graduated from an obscure med school in Timbuktu, he got a very high mark on USMLE 1 and passed USMLE 2 easily, Harvard clerkship gave him good letters of recommendation, and his residency at Yale showed he is very good, what is the business of cali board to deny him a medical license? I just hate elitism.

sorry for the long rant. I just felt like writing something.

[UMP]

only michigan accepts reciprocity



I'm a little new to this.... what does that mean, exactly ?

[gawtti]

double post

[ValuelessMD]

...............

[ValuelessMD]

......................

[gawtti]

[quote="asianTSwantsMD"] For example, the cali board says "Medical Schools Recognized by the Medical Board of California " not "Medical School Programs Recognized by the Medical Board of California." In this case, English MD programs of the cali board approved school in Poland are not really cali board approved or disapproved because they don't need to. Cali approves schools not MD programs.


exactly what i initially thought when i read through it. i guess it depends on how you interpet it, right??

just my 4 cents!!!! :lol:

[asianTSwantsMD]

cali board is supposed to be a state regulatory body, yet they are not transparent when it comes to info about their business dealings, court cases, and methods they use in approving med schools.

i challenge Ms. Park to release the info on spartan cases settled out of court where the complainants were allowed to practice in cali and prohibited to talk about the case.

some operational schools in the caribbean are not cali-approved, but shut down schools in afghanistan are. That's ** right there.

how come Spartan was asked to pay a huge amount of application fee while schools in ethiopia or bangladesh were not? that's plain corruption through selective implementation of licensing laws.

cali board, like oklahoma board, will lose in the court of law.

[ValuelessMD]

..................

[asianTSwantsMD]

only michigan accepts reciprocity



I'm a little new to this.... what does that mean, exactly ?


reciprocity in american health professional licensing means if you are a licensed MD or nurse who has been practicing, let's say in NYC, for awhile, you can use your NYC license if you move to Michigan by applying for reciprocity through submitting certain forms. Basically, an NYC nurse does not need to take michigan nursing exam or an NYC doc does not need to apply for a new michigan medical license and endure a long wait.

[teratos]

Reciprocity makes sense. Of course, some states have absolutely no standards regarding who they give a license to. Does passing the USMLE really indicate that someone is a good doc? Not really. Likewise, having a low score doesn't make someone a bad doc. What REALLY makes a difference is residency training. Sure, you have to have a good solid knowledge of medicine to be a good resident, but that is where diagnostic skills are really learned. Why shouldn't someone who went to Spartan, and then went to Harvard for residency be able to practice in CA? They should take it on a case by case basis, IMHO. Logistical nightmare, but fair.

[asianTSwantsMD]

first and foremost the state of cali is broke. they are not after of the caribbean-trained docs' coins for application fees. They go for the schools' checks. but the victims are the same-- the students/img's.

cali economy must be on a dive. state gov't is pimpin'. cali has so many regulatory boards. one each for manicure/pedicure, haircut, facial, tanning, massage, etc. I wonder how they regulate 'happy endings.' hehehehe

to get a cali med license? sue the cali board.

Ms. Park, how many Spartan docs working in cali? can they speak up now or are they still gagged by the out of court settlement order?

[shockandawe]

first and foremost the state of cali is broke. they are not after of the caribbean-trained docs' coins for application fees. They go for the schools' checks. but the victims are the same-- the students/img's.

cali economy must be on a dive. state gov't is pimpin'. cali has so many regulatory boards. one each for manicure/pedicure, haircut, facial, tanning, massage, etc. I wonder how they regulate 'happy endings.' hehehehe

to get a cali med license? sue the cali board.

Ms. Park, how many Spartan docs working in cali? can they speak up now or are they still gagged by the out of court settlement order?


asianTSwantsMD wrote: "If a blind man is able to see after an eye operation, is he still blind?"

The answer is: Yes, but only if he is a California state medical board member. -s&a

[Miklos]

There are a couple of misconceptions on this thread that I'd like to address.

1) Schools do not pay huge application fees in order to get approved. They must complete the application, which is a significant burden in terms of man-hours, but the only fee attached is if a site visit is required. If a site visit is required, the med board bills the school for their site visit expenses.

2) The reason closed schools in Afghanistan (for instance) are listed on the med board's site is so that past graduates of those local programs can apply for licensure.

3) The reason that operating Carib. schools are not listed is that they have either a) not applied for approval or b) were turned down.

4) Regarding the California statue on English language programs. It (sadly, no loop hole there) pretty clearly differentiates between native language and non-native language programs. To pretend otherwise, is to ignore reality.

5) Planning legal remedy after attending a non-approved school/program is at best a pipe dream. The medical board (whether fair or not) has statuatory authority to determine whether an applicant meets criteria. In addition, if a person attended a non-approved school, after finishing residency, being in debt a couple hundred k, will they realistically have the financial werewithal to mount a legal challenge?

Answer: highly unlikely.

So, if someone wants to have the option of practicing in California someday, do yourself a favor. Go to an approved school or program and avoid headaches later.

Miklos

[cristagali]

AsiantSwants raises some interesting issue. Of course Miklos makes a very sound arguement also (and is the position of the Cali board to date). To anyone, not on the approved list, have you TRIED to APPLY to the CA Board? What was their response? As I stated earlier, NO HUNGARIAN school is on TEXAS' "approved" list. But there are many Hungarian doctors working in Texas, who had to go through a secondary process. A little longer and cumbersome, but licenses were granted. My question is, has anyone on an individual basis applied for CA letter? What was the outcome? if not successful, what was their position? In the big picture, Cali board says they are protecting the public. But when you review the "approved" school list, you absolutely know thats a joke. I really don't see how it could hold up in a court challenge. But then Miklos is right, who has the time and money to wage war with Cali. But more worrisome is that some states are considering adopting the Cali board list. Maybe the Cali board position will be challenged, but through another states court..I don't know...I'm not a lawyer...Anyway, I'll be long gone before this issue is settled. Hopefully it won't come back to haunt me!!HA! :lol:

[asianTSwantsMD]

There are a couple of misconceptions on this thread that I'd like to address.

1) Schools do not pay huge application fees in order to get approved. They must complete the application, which is a significant burden in terms of man-hours, but the only fee attached is if a site visit is required. If a site visit is required, the med board bills the school for their site visit expenses.

application fees cali board is asking from carib schools are for site visit also known as island vacation. do you really think cali board asked the same amount from schools in iraq, ethiopia, bangladesh and other not so developing countries for site visits?


2) The reason closed schools in Afghanistan (for instance) are listed on the med board's site is so that past graduates of those local programs can apply for licensure.

that means school background is not important for licensing; complying ecfmg and passing usmle 1 and 2 and doing residency are. med school in kabul has been closed or semi-closed for decades.

3) The reason that operating Carib. schools are not listed is that they have either a) not applied for approval or b) were turned down.

you forgot c) they have refused to engage in corruption and bribery

4) Regarding the California statue on English language programs. It (sadly, no loop hole there) pretty clearly differentiates between native language and non-native language programs. To pretend otherwise, is to ignore reality.

the loop hole is so glaring. cali licensing laws do not specifically nitpick english or non english MD programs. they approve schools not the language skills of the schools' faculty. what's their method to assess let's say Poland's english MD program? Force all polish professors to take ESL test or TOEFL? what is the policy of the cali board on med schools in India where both hindi and english are used as medium?

5) Planning legal remedy after attending a non-approved school/program is at best a pipe dream. The medical board (whether fair or not) has statuatory authority to determine whether an applicant meets criteria. In addition, if a person attended a non-approved school, after finishing residency, being in debt a couple hundred k, will they realistically have the financial werewithal to mount a legal challenge?

Answer: highly unlikely.

go pro bono. the best way to pay off student loans and get a cali license at the same time is to file a class action lawsuit against the cali board.

So, if someone wants to have the option of practicing in California someday, do yourself a favor. Go to an approved school or program and avoid headaches later.

that is the most unfortunate thing in this issue. the cali board's moronic interpretation and implementation of licensing laws end some student's dreams. i can only afford 6000 dollars a year for all med school and living expenses. I want a med school that is strong in research, with world class professors, and has good clinical facilities.

with my budget and goals, it seems i will end up taking the english md program of a russian pediatric academy. the cali board says english MD programs in eastern europe and russia are not approved. should i listen? no. if i do, then that will be the end of my dream.

My idea of going to med school is not just to finish my degree, pass usmle, do residency and get licensed. i want to maximize my time in med school, learn a lot of things and stay focus on my goal of becoming a pediatric plastic surgeon. medical knowledge and clinical skills, for me, are more important than USMLE or state license.

i don't want to choose a med school using the cali board's idiocy. my mind is set on a russian med school after reading numerous clinical/medical abstracts, journals, and reseach on russian pediatrics/plastic surgery. with or without the cali board's appoval, I want to learn pediatric plastic surgery, microsurgery, tissue culture, osteogenesis (bone replication), non-invasive surgery, use of miniaturized surgical tools, etc.

I think with my 6000 dollars a year for six years, i can learn all these things in a pediatric medical academy in st. petersburg. if in the future cali does not want me, maybe somewhere in africa or asia, i will be needed.

PURSUE YOUR DREAM AGAINST ALL ODDS!



[/b]

[azskeptic]

I support the FSMB's discussions on offshore school inspection which is occuring. Eventually we will need a way to inspect all schools but currently some states,like California, rely on traditional schools that are inspected by the govts for their own students and require inspection of new schools that are designed for Americans. This includes programs designed for Americans by state supported schools like the english ones.

Suing a govt. is a big move. You have to be standing completely on solid ground. I don't believe your argument is there yet. California is very thorough and ethical in the way they do things.

[Miklos]

Your post, to be honest, is a little bit tiresome, especially considering that you've been on this forum only for a handful of days. However, everyone is entitled to be wrong.

There are a couple of misconceptions on this thread that I'd like to address.

1) Schools do not pay huge application fees in order to get approved. They must complete the application, which is a significant burden in terms of man-hours, but the only fee attached is if a site visit is required. If a site visit is required, the med board bills the school for their site visit expenses.

application fees cali board is asking from carib schools are for site visit also known as island vacation. do you really think cali board asked the same amount from schools in iraq, ethiopia, bangladesh and other not so developing countries for site visits?

2) The reason closed schools in Afghanistan (for instance) are listed on the med board's site is so that past graduates of those local programs can apply for licensure.

that means school background is not important for licensing; complying ecfmg and passing usmle 1 and 2 and doing residency are. med school in kabul has been closed or semi-closed for decades.

3) The reason that operating Carib. schools are not listed is that they have either a) not applied for approval or b) were turned down.

you forgot c) they have refused to engage in corruption and bribery

4) Regarding the California statue on English language programs. It (sadly, no loop hole there) pretty clearly differentiates between native language and non-native language programs. To pretend otherwise, is to ignore reality.

the loop hole is so glaring. cali licensing laws do not specifically nitpick english or non english MD programs. they approve schools not the language skills of the schools' faculty. what's their method to assess let's say Poland's english MD program? Force all polish professors to take ESL test or TOEFL? what is the policy of the cali board on med schools in India where both hindi and english are used as medium?

Let's go straight to the California law for clarification. They are posted publicly for everyone's edification. See http://www.medbd.ca.gov/MBC_Regulations.pdf (If they are not there, one can easily look them up under the California law website, if one finds the proper Business and Professions Code.)

The relevant code to this discussion is as follows:

1314.1 International Medical Schools.
(a) For purposes of Article 5 of Chapter 5 of Division 2 of the code (commencing with Section 2100), a medical school's resident course of instruction that leads to an M.D. degree shall be deemed equivalent to that required by Sections 2089 and 2089.5 of the code if the medical school offers the curriculum and clinical instruction described in those sections and meets one of the following:

(1) The medical school is owned and operated by the government of the country in wich it is located, the country is a member of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, and the medical school's primary purpose is educating its own citizens to practice medicine in that country; or

(2)the medical school is chartered by the jurisdiction in which it is domiciled and meets the standards set forth in subsection (b) below.

The regulation then outlines the requirements and then continues...

1314.1 (2) Every seven years, it shall submit documentation sufficient to establish that it remains in compliance with the requirements of this section and of Sections 2089 and 2089.5 of the code.
(g) The documentation submitted pursuant to subsection (f)(2) shall be reviewed by the division or its designee to determine whether the institution remains in compliance with the requirements of those regulations and of Sections 2089 and 2089.5 of the code.
(h) The division may at any time withdraw its determination of equivalence when an institution is no longer in compliance with this section...

What does this mean?

It differentiates between schools/programs that teach their own citizens and those that are set-up on Carib. islands (and other places such as Poland) to teach non-citizens. (You are right about the language; but it goes hand-in-hand with citizenship.)

For purposes of California licensure, the school/program is therefore key.

Accusing the board of corruption is (IMO) childish.

5) Planning legal remedy after attending a non-approved school/program is at best a pipe dream. The medical board (whether fair or not) has statuatory authority to determine whether an applicant meets criteria. In addition, if a person attended a non-approved school, after finishing residency, being in debt a couple hundred k, will they realistically have the financial werewithal to mount a legal challenge?

Answer: highly unlikely.

go pro bono. the best way to pay off student loans and get a cali license at the same time is to file a class action lawsuit against the cali board.

So, if someone wants to have the option of practicing in California someday, do yourself a favor. Go to an approved school or program and avoid headaches later.

that is the most unfortunate thing in this issue. the cali board's moronic interpretation and implementation of licensing laws end some student's dreams. i can only afford 6000 dollars a year for all med school and living expenses. I want a med school that is strong in research, with world class professors, and has good clinical facilities.

with my budget and goals, it seems i will end up taking the english md program of a russian pediatric academy. the cali board says english MD programs in eastern europe and russia are not approved. should i listen? no. if i do, then that will be the end of my dream.

My idea of going to med school is not just to finish my degree, pass usmle, do residency and get licensed. i want to maximize my time in med school, learn a lot of things and stay focus on my goal of becoming a pediatric plastic surgeon. medical knowledge and clinical skills, for me, are more important than USMLE or state license.

i don't want to choose a med school using the cali board's idiocy. my mind is set on a russian med school after reading numerous clinical/medical abstracts, journals, and reseach on russian pediatrics/plastic surgery. with or without the cali board's appoval, I want to learn pediatric plastic surgery, microsurgery, tissue culture, osteogenesis (bone replication), non-invasive surgery, use of miniaturized surgical tools, etc.

I think with my 6000 dollars a year for six years, i can learn all these things in a pediatric medical academy in st. petersburg. if in the future cali does not want me, maybe somewhere in africa or asia, i will be needed.

PURSUE YOUR DREAM AGAINST ALL ODDS!

The best of luck to you.

BTW, going pro bono is probably not an option. After all, who will take a case from a board-certified physician to sue to California Medical Board for free? Even if you find the effort, time and money to sue them, the outcome is unlikely to be in your favor.

Also, there are three approved English language programs in the region. (Charles, Semmelweis and Szeged are all approved.)

Miklos

[Miklos]

AsiantSwants raises some interesting issue. Of course Miklos makes a very sound arguement also (and is the position of the Cali board to date). To anyone, not on the approved list, have you TRIED to APPLY to the CA Board? What was their response? As I stated earlier, NO HUNGARIAN school is on TEXAS' "approved" list. But there are many Hungarian doctors working in Texas, who had to go through a secondary process. A little longer and cumbersome, but licenses were granted. My question is, has anyone on an individual basis applied for CA letter? What was the outcome?

I know a grad from a non-approved English language program in Hungary who is fighting to get a California license. She has completed residency and is board certified, but cannot obtain a license because her program is not approved. Their response, according to her, was as I posted elsewhere:

"Thanks for applying, but unfortunately, the med board cannot evaluate your application, as the program you've attended is not approved."

[azskeptic]

AsiantSwants raises some interesting issue. Of course Miklos makes a very sound arguement also (and is the position of the Cali board to date). To anyone, not on the approved list, have you TRIED to APPLY to the CA Board? What was their response? As I stated earlier, NO HUNGARIAN school is on TEXAS' "approved" list. But there are many Hungarian doctors working in Texas, who had to go through a secondary process. A little longer and cumbersome, but licenses were granted. My question is, has anyone on an individual basis applied for CA letter? What was the outcome?

I know a grad from a non-approved English language program in Hungary who is fighting to get a California license. She has completed residency and is board certified, but cannot obtain a license because her program is not approved. Their response, according to her, was as I posted elsewhere:

"Thanks for applying, but unfortunately, the med board cannot evaluate your application, as the program you've attended is not approved."

also, unless you want an interesting time with other boards, don't apply places where you are going to get denied. You'll be filling out explanations for the remainder of your life as a doctor.

[gawtti]

being from california, i think the board is doing a great job. it is unfortunate that because of a few bad apples that all the legit ones have to suffer. maybe it's discrimination, unethical, unconstitutional, whatever you want to call it. i still feel that the california board is doing a good job. AND, i'm not just saying this because i attend a cali accredited school because i don't.

BUT, if your dream is to become a doctor. don't let this california issue stop you from pursuing your dream. i'm from california and believe me, it's not worth all the hype. :lol: like asianTSwantsMD said, go to afirca or asia where they really need doctors. :D

one more thing, please DO YOUR RESEARCH ON A SCHOOL!! choose it wisely, and if you have the cash. go out and visit the school, talk to the students. i could not STRESS this more. do not go by how cheap the tuition is!!!!!!!! it's the quality that counts!!!!!!!!!

and, 2 of 3 cali approved MD enlgish programs in eastern europe are located in hungary. hopefully, by the time i'm done here we'll be cali approved. :D

[AUCMD2006]

regulation is there for a reason. nail salons had to be regulated after strings of unknown fungal infections were traced back to double and triple using disposable manicure equipment and not cleaning other appropriately. but it can get out of hand. i think if you do step1,2,3 residency and are a US citizen no one should be able to tell you were you can work. if you are a foreigner and have doen the previous things i think a board can have the ability to ask you to work in underserved areas and whatnot in exchange for a certain time working in the US but i don't know if allowing unrestricted work status is good for the home country. ever heard of third world brain drain? first world countries seem to take everything they want from the third world including their best and brightest...maybe require them to work in home country for ten years then come to the US i don't know......


as far as suing the state of cali good luck, as far as becoming a plastic surgeon in the US as an FMG/IMG now that is fighting against all odds! just make sure you aim for pastic surgery but get real confortable with the though of being in internal medicine or FP...hehe

[neilc]

you guys are really something....

if you want to get licensed in cali, go to an approved school. if your school is not approved, get it approved. it is not expensive. those who tell you it costs a lot of money ARE LYING!!! it is free to apply, and the school merely pays for the site visit. a few thousand dollars, at most.

all of this spouting and rhetoric is doing nada. do you think the cali board has NOT been challenged in court? well, the odds are that they will prevail. don't believe me, fine. take a shot. it is your money.

it is funny. this thread (much like all the spartan threads on the same topic) are exactly like a pep rally. a bunch of people getting worked up into a frenzy....but, the problem is that you people are on the team that is going to get whupped up on in the ball game.

now, while there may be a legal challenge to cali, and it may prevail at some distant date in the future (anything is possible)...or you may be one of the select few that somehow slip through the licensing process in spite of not attending an approved school....but, the reality is that neither of these is likely to happen.

hopefully, you will be better as physicians at critical thought and reasoning. it is simpy very, very unlikely, given the current status of cali, that grads of unapproved programs will be working there. in fact, i would say it is MUCH more likely that the cali approval process will begin to be more pervasive (if not adopted by the FSMB as the way to go about regulating schools)!

so, enough of the pipe dreams. come back to reality. focus your energy on an achievable task, such as getting the school approved, or getting a loan for a school that is approved.

[gawtti]

i still think that if you want to be a doctor persue your DREAM. don't let california, or PEOPLE on this forum stop you.

i agree that bricking about it on this forum won't solve anything. we should instill in us ACTION rather than WORDS. choose the school you want to attend based on reputation and the quality. and, if they are not cali approved. then, push the school administrators to APPLY FOR RECOGNITION!! it's REALLY THAT EASY!!!!

california has already received our application. so, hopefully by the time i'm done here we will be approved. 8)

[asianTSwantsMD]

THANKS, GAWTTI. YOU GOT MY POINT.

[neilc]

i still think that if you want to be a doctor persue your DREAM. don't let california, or PEOPLE on this forum stop you.

i agree that bricking about it on this forum won't solve anything. we should instill in us ACTION rather than WORDS. choose the school you want to attend based on reputation and the quality. and, if they are not cali approved. then, push the school administrators to APPLY FOR RECOGNITION!! it's REALLY THAT EASY!!!!

california has already received our application. so, hopefully by the time i'm done here we will be approved. 8)

i agree on many points...first, yelling about how injust a system is does nothing...i personally do not think cali is all that difficult, and it is not expensive. just do it! and, if you think it is injust, and want to sue, also, just do it.

on the dream of becoming a doctor....i agree, to a point. go and be an md, go to a school that can do that. but, it is important to temper your starry-eyed dreams with reality. the reality is (at least in my view) that there are many currently approved CA schools (and schools that fit every budget), and if you want to practice in CA you should go to one of these schools. the other reality is that it is likely many more states will adopt the CA list, and even if they don't, it is not a great idea to already limit your options before you even have finished. simply put, there are too many good schools that will not limit you. GO TO ONE OF THESE SCHOOLS!!!! even if you don't think you want to work in CA, you think you will work internationally, whatever. do not limit yourself! in 20 years, you might be kicking yourself for this short sightedness.

[asianTSwantsMD]

THE IDEA BEHIND MY ORIGINAL POST IS ABOUT THE RELEVANCE OR IRRELEVANCE OF THE CALI BOARD APPROVAL IN CHOOSING A MED SCHOOL, NOT TO LAMBAST THEM,, BUT THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE CALI BOARD THAT MAKES ONE AGITATED. MAYBE THE MED SCHOOL IN KABUL INFURIATES ME.

MED SCHOOL APPLICANTS SHOULD PREOCCUPY THEMSELVES OF BECOMING A DOCTOR FIRST BFFORE EVEN THINKING ABOUT THE CALI BOARD. ECFMG, USMLE AND RESIDENCY ARE FAR MORE IMPORTANT.

IF ONE IS PARANOID OF THE CALI BOARD APPRROVAL LIST, AND IT IS AFFECTING HIS DECISION ON WHAT MED SCHOOL TO GO TO, HE OUGHT TO EXAMINE HIMSELF WHAT HE REALLY WANTS-- TO SURF OR TO HEAL.

IT'S JUST ANNOYING TO READ THE CALI BOARD SCARE ON ALMOST ALL MED STUDENT FORUMS. IT'S TIME TO GIVE THIS ISSUE A SERIOUS PERSPECTIVE. IN MY BELIEF, AS LONG AS YOU GO TO A GOOD SCHOOL THAT TRAINS YOU TO BE A GOOD PHYSICIAN, YOU WILL BE FINE. YOU NEED TO WORRY MORE ON YOUR FIRST COURSE OF PHYSIOLOGY THAN WHAT MS. PARK HAS BEEN TELLING YOU.

ALL I HAVE AGAINST THE CALI BOARD IS THEIR POLICY ON TRANSPARENCY. IF THERE ARE CASES FILED AGAINST THEM, MS PARK SHOULD REFRAIN FROM SCARING PEOPLE. IF YOU ASK THE CALI BOARD IF THEY HAVE ISSUED LICENSES TO IMG'S FROM SCHOOLS NOT ON THE APPROVED LIST, I ASSURE YOU, THEY WON'T TELL YOU AN ABSOLUTE NO AS AN ANSWER.

IT JUST BOTHERS ME THAT MY HOME STATE OF CALI PREFERS AFGHAN IMG'S TRAINED IN MUD HUT MED SCHOOL AND IN KABUL HOSPITALS, WHERE PATIENTS SLEEP ON BARE, DUSTY FLOORS, THAN AMERICAN SPARTAN DOCS TRAINED IN A MODERN SCHOOL/HOSPITAL IN SANTA LUCIA. I CANNOT FATHOM THE LOGIC BEHIND THIS.

[asianTSwantsMD]

MOD, YOU CAN DELETE THIS TOPIC. I DON'T WANT TO SOUND LIKE AN AGENT-PROVOCATEUR.

[shockandawe]

Guys and Gals,

I'm sorry but I have to agree 100% with Neilc. Just go to an approved school because Cali is totally fair. Face reality that there is no injustice here. Just because places like the University of Bangladesh and the University of Afgan are approved, even though they do their clinicals out of chicken farms, that doesn't mean that the CA boards are unfair. These are really excellent schools. You can learn the greatest advances in science and technology from these schools. In a couple of years they will have medicine that can compete with the 1880's developments... That is why I have decided to get a second MD from Saddam University in Baghdad, this way I can show off my CA approval to everyone. They have a special "Buy one MD, get one free, for only twenty dollars." :D -s&a

[Miklos]

THE IDEA BEHIND MY ORIGINAL POST IS ABOUT THE RELEVANCE OR IRRELEVANCE OF THE CALI BOARD APPROVAL IN CHOOSING A MED SCHOOL, NOT TO LAMBAST THEM,, BUT THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE CALI BOARD THAT MAKES ONE AGITATED. MAYBE THE MED SCHOOL IN KABUL INFURIATES ME.

MED SCHOOL APPLICANTS SHOULD PREOCCUPY THEMSELVES OF BECOMING A DOCTOR FIRST BFFORE EVEN THINKING ABOUT THE CALI BOARD. ECFMG, USMLE AND RESIDENCY ARE FAR MORE IMPORTANT.

IF ONE IS PARANOID OF THE CALI BOARD APPRROVAL LIST, AND IT IS AFFECTING HIS DECISION ON WHAT MED SCHOOL TO GO TO, HE OUGHT TO EXAMINE HIMSELF WHAT HE REALLY WANTS-- TO SURF OR TO HEAL.

IT'S JUST ANNOYING TO READ THE CALI BOARD SCARE ON ALMOST ALL MED STUDENT FORUMS. IT'S TIME TO GIVE THIS ISSUE A SERIOUS PERSPECTIVE. IN MY BELIEF, AS LONG AS YOU GO TO A GOOD SCHOOL THAT TRAINS YOU TO BE A GOOD PHYSICIAN, YOU WILL BE FINE. YOU NEED TO WORRY MORE ON YOUR FIRST COURSE OF PHYSIOLOGY THAN WHAT MS. PARK HAS BEEN TELLING YOU.

ALL I HAVE AGAINST THE CALI BOARD IS THEIR POLICY ON TRANSPARENCY. IF THERE ARE CASES FILED AGAINST THEM, MS PARK SHOULD REFRAIN FROM SCARING PEOPLE. IF YOU ASK THE CALI BOARD IF THEY HAVE ISSUED LICENSES TO IMG'S FROM SCHOOLS NOT ON THE APPROVED LIST, I ASSURE YOU, THEY WON'T TELL YOU AN ABSOLUTE NO AS AN ANSWER.

IT JUST BOTHERS ME THAT MY HOME STATE OF CALI PREFERS AFGHAN IMG'S TRAINED IN MUD HUT MED SCHOOL AND IN KABUL HOSPITALS, WHERE PATIENTS SLEEP ON BARE, DUSTY FLOORS, THAN AMERICAN SPARTAN DOCS TRAINED IN A MODERN SCHOOL/HOSPITAL IN SANTA LUCIA. I CANNOT FATHOM THE LOGIC BEHIND THIS.

This is simply very poor advice.

I haven't the desire or the energy to argue whether the California Medical Board's decisions are just or fair; or for that matter whether the prevailing climate against IMGs is fair or not.

However, this I do know; A medical education abroad is a substantial investment in time, money, blood, sweat and tears.

It is doubly so, if one wishes to return to North America to practice medicine, especially due to the prevailing climate.

Simply focusing on "being a good physician" without understanding the potential barriers that the "system" places in one's path is at best simple minded.

But, you probably don't understand that, as you have neither the pre-med background nor any med. school experience (c.f. your comments generally, but specifically re: plastic surgery and Siberian med schools).

I'd like to suggest that you either educate yourself some more or stop making comments about things you don't seem to understand, as your comments are poorly thought out and do not reflect the reality of the situation (in addition to being very poor advice to potential med students).

Miklos

[Miklos]

MOD, YOU CAN DELETE THIS TOPIC. I DON'T WANT TO SOUND LIKE AN AGENT-PROVOCATEUR.

Sure you don't. Create the storm in the tea-cup, be rebutted and then walk away.

Doubt that you'll make it anyway...

[Miklos]

Guys and Gals,

I'm sorry but I have to agree 100% with Neilc. Just go to an approved school because Cali is totally fair. Face reality that there is no injustice here. Just because places like the University of Bangladesh and the University of Afgan are approved, even though they do their clinicals out of chicken farms, that doesn't mean that the CA boards are unfair. These are really excellent schools. You can learn the greatest advances in science and technology from these schools. In a couple of years they will have medicine that can compete with the 1880's developments... That is why I have decided to get a second MD from Saddam University in Baghdad, this way I can show off my CA approval to everyone. They have a special "Buy one MD, get one free, for only twenty dollars." :D -s&a

Again, this is not about "fair"; it is the way it is.

Either accept it or change it.

Grow up.

[gawtti]

everywhere on this forum i find a discussion on california. one more time...to all those potential students reading these forums. PLEASE, DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND CHOOSE A REPUTABLE SCHOOL!!!!!! also, remember just because your school is cali approved does not mean you will not face other hardships. BUT, it will make it much easier.

arguing on this forum about california is not wise. we all know it accomplishes NOTHING!! ACTION ACTION ACTION!! we all want to become physicians here. so, let's all forget about how california is being unfair, fair...or whatever. move on and start reaching for your goal. these forums are here to educate those comtemplating going to an international school.

LET'S MAKE 2005 THE YEAR OF GETTING OUR SCHOOLS APPROVED IN CALIFORNIA!!!!!!!!! :lol: so that we can stop arguing about this and start treating patients. :P

[ValuelessMD]

....................

[asianTSwantsMD]

Miklos, you sound like an angry man. is that the effect of a 6 year med hungarian program? you sound as if you are a harvard med student with an air of arrogance. dude, relax.

don't ever question my med school preparedness. the only lacking in my undergrad transcript is one year physics. i also belong to a big familly of 10 img's and 5 us-trained docs. i know their stories and travails. doc miklos, don't pull ad hominem on me. you can do better than that.

if i am such a sellout or cali board-paranoid, i would go back to my country and study there. for 1500 dollars a year, fourth year clerkship in the US, and cali approval, this school really sounds good. but this school is one of the worst med schools back home. students cheat and bribe to pass. their hospital is a joke, but hey they are cali approved. there you go.

some med students are not bothered by cali board. i have no desire to be a slave of HMO's. i can go back and practice in my country anytime. medical tourism is huge now in asia anyway. US hospitals even outsource some radiology jobs nowadays. plus malpractice insurance is reasonable.

if your goal is nothing but to be cali board-certified, enjoy your cali beach and sun. just don't bombard this forum with the same monotonous cali board scare and paranoia. if i have expressed something in this forum, naive or not, at least it is a different perspective. aren't we all entitled to many choices?

[ValuelessMD]

.................

[gawtti]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Miklos]

Miklos, you sound like an angry man. is that the effect of a 6 year med hungarian program? you sound as if you are a harvard med student with an air of arrogance. dude, relax.

don't ever question my med school preparedness. the only lacking in my undergrad transcript is one year physics. i also belong to a big familly of 10 img's and 5 us-trained docs. i know their stories and travails. doc miklos, don't pull ad hominem on me. you can do better than that.

if i am such a sellout or cali board-paranoid, i would go back to my country and study there. for 1500 dollars a year, fourth year clerkship in the US, and cali approval, this school really sounds good. but this school is one of the worst med schools back home. students cheat and bribe to pass. their hospital is a joke, but hey they are cali approved. there you go.

some med students are not bothered by cali board. i have no desire to be a slave of HMO's. i can go back and practice in my country anytime. medical tourism is huge now in asia anyway. US hospitals even outsource some radiology jobs nowadays. plus malpractice insurance is reasonable.

if your goal is nothing but to be cali board-certified, enjoy your cali beach and sun. just don't bombard this forum with the same monotonous cali board scare and paranoia. if i have expressed something in this forum, naive or not, at least it is a different perspective. aren't we all entitled to many choices?

You absolutely have the right to be wrong.

What bothers me about your posts is;

You begin by stating that California approval is not important and that (in effect) any school will do, and that the potential med student should not bother looking into details as this or the USMLE or the ECFMG. Then, you go onto accuse the medical board of corruption and post a number of lies regarding the certification process. In addition, you claim without substantiation that there's a Spartan grad out there legally practicing in California.

When it is pointed out to you that the process is not as you portray it and that there are costs associated with attempting to get licensed from an unapproved school, you scream: "Sue the Board".

When it is again pointed out to you that suing the board is not as easy as it sounds (apropos Spartan lost their suit) and requires time, money and effort, you proceed to call me paranoid and accuse me of scare tactics.

Then, you go on to request to have the thread deleted as if it never happend anyway.

I think that you are living in a dream world and when reality doesn't conform to your expectations, you resort to denial.

You are welcome to go wherever you desire, be it Tomsk or Spartan in pursuit of whatever dream that drives you. I wish you the best of luck.

However, as long as I have the time and desire, I will continue to point out the folly of choosing to attend a non-approved school to potential students.

For those of you at a non-approved school, I recommend that you stop wasting your time venting on fora. Use that energy instead to get your school to apply for approval.

Miklos

[azskeptic]

Schools that aren't able to meet the criteria of a NY or California are what I call 'not ready for prime time medical schools' The requirements for these states are good common sense requirements. Most state laws require equivalency to US medical schools; if you can't do it, you shouldn't be approved. Lawsuits are a nuisance but not a major problem for a state; they have thousands of attorneys on staff. But if you find yourself going to a medical school where you must sue to get your license approved, I say you are in a 'not ready for prime time medical school' and should contemplate your plight in life; are you willing to accept less? If you go to some of these schools you are setting yourself up for less in life pure and simple. Nothing wrong with it but acceptance takes some time for some folks.

[gawtti]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[AUCMD2006]

"IF ONE IS PARANOID OF THE CALI BOARD APPRROVAL LIST, AND IT IS AFFECTING HIS DECISION ON WHAT MED SCHOOL TO GO TO, HE OUGHT TO EXAMINE HIMSELF WHAT HE REALLY WANTS-- TO SURF OR TO HEAL."


just shows exactly how little you know about the topic. its not about some stupid surfing comment or wether it is fair or not, it's not fair by the way, but point is the vibe around licensure is that the fsmb is looking for a way to 'accredit' foreign schools and since the cali guidelines are the closest to US med school standards many think that a similar list to calis may bve used in the near future for licensure.

that being said it would be beneficial to CYA and attend a school on the list to begin with just in case a similar guideline is used and the schools already on it will likely pass another look. now if you can't afford it your options are more limited and spartan or similar maybe your only option. another point that warrants more research on your part is your dream of plastic surgery in the US as an fmg..try and find a plastic surgery resident from a foreign school or how many open slots there are every year you'l be unpleasantly surprised i'm sorry to say....

[ValuelessMD]

...............

[ValuelessMD]

................

[asianTSwantsMD]

this issue is now moot for me. I am going to havana, cuba to study medicine for free, and i will get free housing, food, and monthly monetary allowance. and yes, it's cali approved. I just love challenges.

to those who want me to substantiate my claim that there are docs who got their degrees from cali-unapproved schools, and are practicing in california, all you need to do is get an FHP or kaiser permanente handbook. browse the list of physician with their school background. the proof lies on the transparency of the cali board and in your resourcefulness. with regards to my old spartan primary care physician in cali three years ago, it's useless to drag his name in this mess for he has now a succesful practice in Ithaca, NY.

for miklos, who has a misguided animosity towards russian medical school and medicine, you need to loosen up and smell coffee. Name a hungarian contribution to the current trend in medicine. It will take time for you to find one, but i can name a lot of russian clinical techniques and technology, which american docs have just started learning/using, from plastic surgery to orthopedics/sports medicine. don't drag your politics in the field of medicine. be reasonable.

to those who said it is hard for IMG's to become a plastic surgeon in the US, have you ever wondered why there are many indian and south american plastic surgeons in the US? one of the top beverly hills surgeons is an IMG from india. my two uncles folllowed their route.

if you are an IMG, and really want to become a plastic surgeon, granting you are ready for residency matching/scramble, pick the easiest to get into. general surgery was used to be the least favourite. due to the new policy on restricted number of residency hours, general surgery is now becoming more preferable among residency seekers. after you finished your residency, let's say in general sugery, you can go to mexico, canada, india, etc to either apply for plastic surgery residency or MS in plastic surgery (some countries offer it). Usually this takes one to three years.

after you are done with your clinical adventure offshore, you can now come back to the US ready for a fellowship in plastic surgery. UCIrvine medical center in orange cali has a lot of fellowships offered under plastic surgery and otolaryngology (facial plastic surgery). a mexican IMG fellow at UCI did my nose for 300 bucks. yes he was good though his initial residency in the US was urology. that is the route to take if you really want to become a plastic surgeon and resourceful enough.

to end, i stand firm on my belief that given two choices between a cali unapproved top medical university in russia and so-so cali-approved caribean, asian or hungarian med school, even if the fees are the same, i will choose the top university in russia. it's my choice. sue me.

happy new year!

[dt]

...

to those who want me to substantiate my claim that there are docs who got their degrees from cali-unapproved schools, and are practicing in california, all you need to do is get an FHP or kaiser permanente handbook. browse the list of physician with their school background. the proof lies on the transparency of the cali board and in your resourcefulness. with regards to my old spartan primary care physician in cali three years ago, it's useless to drag his name in this mess for he has now a succesful practice in Ithaca, NY.




azskeptic,

Do you have the time and resources to confirm this about Spartan trained docs (or non-approved California schools) practicing in California?

dt

[AUCMD2006]

i guess if you have the time anything is possible....i was just pointing out the difficulty in the traditional route but if i had an extra 12 years to burn why not? :lol:

the worlds best plastic surgeons are in rio de janeiro by the way. good luck fighting the man, going against the system, and all those cliches...i'l take the tried and proven i don't like uphill battles and rarely favor the underdog in any contest.... :P

[azskeptic]

...

to those who want me to substantiate my claim that there are docs who got their degrees from cali-unapproved schools, and are practicing in california, all you need to do is get an FHP or kaiser permanente handbook. browse the list of physician with their school background. the proof lies on the transparency of the cali board and in your resourcefulness. with regards to my old spartan primary care physician in cali three years ago, it's useless to drag his name in this mess for he has now a succesful practice in Ithaca, NY.




azskeptic,

Do you have the time and resources to confirm this about Spartan trained docs (or non-approved California schools) practicing in California?

dt

If you are talking about people who graduated from Spartan after the 85 rejection thats no problem.....there will be none....I'll see what I can find.

[Picard]

Another troll trying to stir the pot about California.

If he/she really has a primary care provider in Orange County, California who has received a California license AFTER the 1985 ban of Spartan, all he/she has to do to prove her point is to provide us with the name so we can look it up on www.medbd.ca.gov -- it lists ALL California licensed physicians INCLUDING THE INITIAL YEAR OF LICENSURE and the year of medical school graduation.

And PLEASE don't settle for the ** claim that mentioning the name will bring retrobutions from the state of California on that physician. California medical licensure is public record. If asianTSwantsMD's Spartan grad primary care truly successfully sued the California board for licensure, then he/she is protected by that court's ruling on her licensure... and since physician records are public BY CALIFORNIA LAW, mere confirmation of her school of graduation on the board's website cannot possibly be violating any "gag order" (however ridiculous this "gag order" idea sounds), if there is any. If the primary care obtained his/her license under fraudulent conditions by misrepresenting his/her medical credential, then he/she needs to be exposed.

So, to asianTSwantsMD -- WHO IS THE NAME OF THAT ORANGE COUNTY DOCTOR from Spartan who got his/her license AFTER the 1985 ban?

P

[asianTSwantsMD]

yes you can go to brazil for your plastic surgery residency/training. you will be the luckiest if you train under dr. pitanguy for craniofacial plastic surgery. you can go to sofia, bulgaria too to train under dr. serdev for less or non-invasive plastic surgery. you can do it in japan, korea and thailand. they are known for rigid plastic surgery training. russia is good too particularly in bone-related facial surgery. but the question, are you willing to study a foreign language during the first year of your traning? i don't think i would waste a year of learning portuguese before i start my plastic surgery training. so brazil won't be on my list. maybe for 1-week demonstration plastic surgery class, i would definitelly send my registration fee if it's dr. pitanguy. well, more years for me to go before i will start thinking about this. for now, let me learn spanish and cuba's socialist community medicine. ciao!

[asianTSwantsMD]

Another troll trying to stir the pot about California.

a troll is an ugly doll. i don't look like that.

If he/she really has a primary care provider in Orange County, California who has received a California license AFTER the 1985 ban of Spartan, all he/she has to do to prove her point is to provide us with the name so we can look it up on www.medbd.ca.gov -- it lists ALL California licensed physicians INCLUDING THE INITIAL YEAR OF LICENSURE and the year of medical school graduation.

as OJ said, the burden of proof is not mine. I am neither a spartan graduate nor a cali board representative. be resourceful.

And PLEASE don't settle for the ** claim that mentioning the name will bring retrobutions from the state of California on that physician. California medical licensure is public record. If asianTSwantsMD's Spartan grad primary care truly successfully sued the California board for licensure, then he/she is protected by that court's ruling on her licensure... and since physician records are public BY CALIFORNIA LAW, mere confirmation of her school of graduation on the board's website cannot possibly be violating any "gag order" (however ridiculous this "gag order" idea sounds), if there is any. If the primary care obtained his/her license under fraudulent conditions by misrepresenting his/her medical credential, then he/she needs to be exposed.

well if it's rediculous, go and find something worthwhile.

So, to asianTSwantsMD -- WHO IS THE NAME OF THAT ORANGE COUNTY DOCTOR from Spartan who got his/her license AFTER the 1985 ban?

did you mean "what is the name of the doc"? why bother him when he is already in NY. now search for cases in cali you will find in health insurance handbooks. you will not find any on the internet. think out of the box before donald says 'you are fired."
[/b]

[shockandawe]

Why are you guys in so much denial, Az, Picard and others????? You mean that you do not believe that the CA state boards got their butt wipped by another Spartan grad???? Really, did you forget about Oklahoma???

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?citeID=49099

Now we can say that Spartan has licensed grads in ALL 50 states, including your beloved CA... hee, hee, hee... :lol:

I'm tell'in you, no one can stop the Spartanites!!!!

Eventually all suppressive regimes will be destroyed. The CA state regime will go down, their going downtown.. Sad when you think about it. The approved carib. schools will have nothing then... Just overpriced tuitions in overcrowded classrooms with worn-out gold paint on the wall... Then, rrod will transfer to Spartan, cause he don't like underdogs... :lol: -s&a

[Miklos]

this issue is now moot for me. I am going to havana, cuba to study medicine for free, and i will get free housing, food, and monthly monetary allowance. and yes, it's cali approved. I just love challenges.

Good luck in Havana. If you think that Cuba is less corrupt than the Philippines, you have another thing coming for you.

BTW, the much vaunted Cuban healthcare statistics often quoted to justify Castro are nothing more than a lie. Case in point, Cuban infant mortality statistics are rigged, as Cubans do not follow international guidelines when it comes to premature infants and those of extremely low birth weight. They simply consider them stillborn and VOILA the statistics look much better. Of course, you wouldn't know this as you know nothing about medicine.

to those who want me to substantiate my claim that there are docs who got their degrees from cali-unapproved schools, and are practicing in california, all you need to do is get an FHP or kaiser permanente handbook. browse the list of physician with their school background. the proof lies on the transparency of the cali board and in your resourcefulness. with regards to my old spartan primary care physician in cali three years ago, it's useless to drag his name in this mess for he has now a succesful practice in Ithaca, NY.

Unless you can back up this claim, you are a troll, plain and simple. If such a graduate exists post his/her name and we'll look it up at http://www.medbd.ca.gov/Lookup.htm as per Picard's post.

for miklos, who has a misguided animosity towards russian medical school and medicine, you need to loosen up and smell coffee. Name a hungarian contribution to the current trend in medicine. It will take time for you to find one, but i can name a lot of russian clinical techniques and technology, which american docs have just started learning/using, from plastic surgery to orthopedics/sports medicine. don't drag your politics in the field of medicine. be reasonable.

I have always acknowledged contributions to medicine and science by Russians (and Soviets). Anyone that does not, would be a fool.

My criticisms of Russia (and the Soviet Union) on this site have been basically limited to two areas.

1) Soviet Psychiatry; which elsewhere is known as behavioral control.
2) The (IMO) alarming authoritarian and nationalist trend in Russia.

With regard to Hungarian contributions to science and medicine, please see for instance http://www.webenetics.com/hungary/nobel.htm and http://www.webenetics.com/hungary/sciencemathandtech.htm

NB Hungary's population of roughly 10m is 1/14 that of Russia (143m). Nevertheless, Hungarians and those of Hungarian origin bat well above their weight when it comes to contributions to science and medicine.

to those who said it is hard for IMG's to become a plastic surgeon in the US, have you ever wondered why there are many indian and south american plastic surgeons in the US? one of the top beverly hills surgeons is an IMG from india. my two uncles folllowed their route.

if you are an IMG, and really want to become a plastic surgeon, granting you are ready for residency matching/scramble, pick the easiest to get into. general surgery was used to be the least favourite. due to the new policy on restricted number of residency hours, general surgery is now becoming more preferable among residency seekers. after you finished your residency, let's say in general sugery, you can go to mexico, canada, india, etc to either apply for plastic surgery residency or MS in plastic surgery (some countries offer it). Usually this takes one to three years.

after you are done with your clinical adventure offshore, you can now come back to the US ready for a fellowship in plastic surgery. UCIrvine medical center in orange cali has a lot of fellowships offered under plastic surgery and otolaryngology (facial plastic surgery). a mexican IMG fellow at UCI did my nose for 300 bucks. yes he was good though his initial residency in the US was urology. that is the route to take if you really want to become a plastic surgeon and resourceful enough.

Like your "brilliant" idea of going pro-bono, this one has its own problems. Unless one is independently wealthy, it is again, highly unlikely. A North American who goes abroad to med school, will return highly indebted to start his/her residency. Though one is able defer the loans for the period of most of the residency (depending, of course), sooner or later one must start paying them back. Going abroad at that stage (post-residency) without income is not realistic.


to end, i stand firm on my belief that given two choices between a cali unapproved top medical university in russia and so-so cali-approved caribean, asian or hungarian med school, even if the fees are the same, i will choose the top university in russia. it's my choice. sue me.

happy new year!

This shows your naviety again. Nevermind (for argument's sake) the California status. Have you taken a look at how many foreigners are able to navigate the Russian med school system and get ECFMG certified?

The last data put out on the web by the ECFMG is for 2002. See http://www.ecfmg.org/annuals/2002/certstan.html Exhibit 4.

It shows that 89 individuals who graduated from Russian med schools were able to gain ECFMG certification. Of these, roughly 57 (we don't know for certain) were Russian nationals. That means that a total of 32 foreigners from 64 (see http://imed.ecfmg.org/results.asp?country=785&school=&currpage=1&cname=R USSIA&city=&region=EU&rname=Europe&psize=100 ) medical schools in all of Russia were able to get ECFMG certified. Quite a success rate.

Happy New Year!

Miklos

[ValuelessMD]

....................

[Miklos]

Another troll trying to stir the pot about California.

a troll is an ugly doll. i don't look like that.

If he/she really has a primary care provider in Orange County, California who has received a California license AFTER the 1985 ban of Spartan, all he/she has to do to prove her point is to provide us with the name so we can look it up on www.medbd.ca.gov -- it lists ALL California licensed physicians INCLUDING THE INITIAL YEAR OF LICENSURE and the year of medical school graduation.

as OJ said, the burden of proof is not mine. I am neither a spartan graduate nor a cali board representative. be resourceful.

And PLEASE don't settle for the ** claim that mentioning the name will bring retrobutions from the state of California on that physician. California medical licensure is public record. If asianTSwantsMD's Spartan grad primary care truly successfully sued the California board for licensure, then he/she is protected by that court's ruling on her licensure... and since physician records are public BY CALIFORNIA LAW, mere confirmation of her school of graduation on the board's website cannot possibly be violating any "gag order" (however ridiculous this "gag order" idea sounds), if there is any. If the primary care obtained his/her license under fraudulent conditions by misrepresenting his/her medical credential, then he/she needs to be exposed.

well if it's rediculous, go and find something worthwhile.

So, to asianTSwantsMD -- WHO IS THE NAME OF THAT ORANGE COUNTY DOCTOR from Spartan who got his/her license AFTER the 1985 ban?

did you mean "what is the name of the doc"? why bother him when he is already in NY. now search for cases in cali you will find in <a target=new href=http://www.valuemd.com/doubleclick/click.php?mgr=aspcode.net&id=52>health insurance</a> handbooks. you will not find any on the internet. think out of the box before donald says 'you are fired."
[/b]

:ban:

[asianTSwantsMD]

this issue is now moot for me. I am going to havana, cuba to study medicine for free, and i will get free housing, food, and monthly monetary allowance. and yes, it's cali approved. I just love challenges.

Good luck in Havana. If you think that Cuba is less corrupt than the Philippines, you have another thing coming for you.

BTW, the much vaunted Cuban healthcare statistics often quoted to justify Castro are nothing more than a lie. Case in point, Cuban infant mortality statistics are rigged, as Cubans do not follow international guidelines when it comes to premature infants and those of extremely low birth weight. They simply consider them stillborn and VOILA the statistics look much better. Of course, you wouldn't know this as you know nothing about medicine.

asianTSwantsMD: mr. know-it-all, WHO has a data about cuban healthcare. WHO is not a world body run by gulllible idiots. all you need to do is browse existing WHO data on the net and educate yourself. Even harvard university has a colaborative epidemiological project with the health department and government hospitals in havana. harvard is not passive to lies, political propaganda, and manipulated data. educate yourself before you talk like a parrot.

to those who want me to substantiate my claim that there are docs who got their degrees from cali-unapproved schools, and are practicing in california, all you need to do is get an FHP or kaiser permanente handbook. browse the list of physician with their school background. the proof lies on the transparency of the cali board and in your resourcefulness. with regards to my old spartan primary care physician in cali three years ago, it's useless to drag his name in this mess for he has now a succesful practice in Ithaca, NY.

Unless you can back up this claim, you are a troll, plain and simple. If such a graduate exists post his/her name and we'll look it up at http://www.medbd.ca.gov/Lookup.htm as per Picard's post.

asianTSwantsMD: it happened in oklahoma. statistically it will happen in california. now, do your probability calculation if you realy want it to be a fact or exact science since you question what my eyes saw on my primary care physcian's wall-- a spartan diploma. that was my first knowledge that there is such a med school called spartan.

for miklos, who has a misguided animosity towards russian medical school and medicine, you need to loosen up and smell coffee. Name a hungarian contribution to the current trend in medicine. It will take time for you to find one, but i can name a lot of russian clinical techniques and technology, which american docs have just started learning/using, from plastic surgery to orthopedics/sports medicine. don't drag your politics in the field of medicine. be reasonable.

I have always acknowledged contributions to medicine and science by Russians (and Soviets). Anyone that does not, would be a fool.

My criticisms of Russia (and the Soviet Union) on this site have been basically limited to two areas.

1) Soviet Psychiatry; which elsewhere is known as behavioral control.
2) The (IMO) alarming authoritarian and nationalist trend in Russia.

With regard to Hungarian contributions to science and medicine, please see for instance http://www.webenetics.com/hungary/nobel.htm and http://www.webenetics.com/hungary/sciencemathandtech.htm

NB Hungary's population of roughly 10m is 1/14 that of Russia (143m). Nevertheless, Hungarians and those of Hungarian origin bat well above their weight when it comes to contributions to science and medicine.

asianTSwantsMD: america did worse. remember the tuskegee syphilis research where black airmen were used as guinea pigs? how about the birth control pills carcinogen in the 60's affecting thousands of feminist women? did you forget agent orange experimentally used in vietnam war as a chemical weapon? dude, read real american history. stop watching fox news.

i asked you about hungarian contribution to the current trends in medicine not the list of nobel winners. simply, the nobel-worthy works of amartya sen (economics), Subrahmanyan Chandrashekhar (physics), Chandrasekhra Venkata Raman (physics), and Hargobind khorana (physiology and medicine) are not india's contributions to the current trends in medicine. do you still want me to break it down? dude, you are not brilliant. stop projecting. your communty colllege sciences are not worth bragging


to those who said it is hard for IMG's to become a plastic surgeon in the US, have you ever wondered why there are many indian and south american plastic surgeons in the US? one of the top beverly hills surgeons is an IMG from india. my two uncles folllowed their route.

if you are an IMG, and really want to become a plastic surgeon, granting you are ready for residency matching/scramble, pick the easiest to get into. general surgery was used to be the least favourite. due to the new policy on restricted number of residency hours, general surgery is now becoming more preferable among residency seekers. after you finished your residency, let's say in general sugery, you can go to mexico, canada, india, etc to either apply for plastic surgery residency or MS in plastic surgery (some countries offer it). Usually this takes one to three years.

after you are done with your clinical adventure offshore, you can now come back to the US ready for a fellowship in plastic surgery. UCIrvine medical center in orange cali has a lot of fellowships offered under plastic surgery and otolaryngology (facial plastic surgery). a mexican IMG fellow at UCI did my nose for 300 bucks. yes he was good though his initial residency in the US was urology. that is the route to take if you really want to become a plastic surgeon and resourceful enough.

Like your "brilliant" idea of going pro-bono, this one has its own problems. Unless one is independently wealthy, it is again, highly unlikely. A North American who goes abroad to med school, will return highly indebted to start his/her residency. Though one is able defer the loans for the period of most of the residency (depending, of course), sooner or later one must start paying them back. Going abroad at that stage (post-residency) without income is not realistic.

asianTSwantsMD: an ambition has no price. residency is considered a school attendance, thus you can apply for loan payment deferment. if you are very determined, you will save some of the money you get from a US hospital during your first residency in general surgery for instance. $ 2,000 is way enough for a one-year plastic surgery residency in mexico, costa rica, or philippines if you really want to be a plastic surgeon. it has been done several times.

miklos you have no balls to be an excellent physician. you are a defeatist , retreatist arrogant fellow. i think you will be good in sendng your patients home and telling them to wait for their eventual death. that is a scary physician-- the one who does not pursue opportunites, hope for the best, and work to succeed no matter what happens.


to end, i stand firm on my belief that given two choices between a cali unapproved top medical university in russia and so-so cali-approved caribean, asian or hungarian med school, even if the fees are the same, i will choose the top university in russia. it's my choice. sue me.

happy new year!

This shows your naviety again. Nevermind (for argument's sake) the California status. Have you taken a look at how many foreigners are able to navigate the Russian med school system and get ECFMG certified?

The last data put out on the web by the ECFMG is for 2002. See http://www.ecfmg.org/annuals/2002/certstan.html Exhibit 4.

It shows that 89 individuals who graduated from Russian med schools were able to gain ECFMG certification. Of these, roughly 57 (we don't know for certain) were Russian nationals. That means that a total of 32 foreigners from 64 (see http://imed.ecfmg.org/results.asp?country=785&school=&currpage=1&cname=R USSIA&city=&region=EU&rname=Europe&psize=100 ) medical schools in all of Russia were able to get ECFMG certified. Quite a success rate.

Happy New Year!

Miklos

again your statistical assumption is skewed, mr-know-it-all. most foreign medical students in russia are asians, africans, and europeans. asians and africanss composing the majority of foreign medical students in russia are mostly financed by their governments with the contract that they will go back to their home countries and work there. with that fact alone, you can safely say that not all foreign students in russia opt for ecfmg and take usmle.

use logic for once, good sir. i mean bad mr. know-it-all. say something sensible and shock this "naive" fellow. your sellout views are devoid of logic and facts. you are indeed a good asset for HMO's. they love physicians who check tumors with their minds calculating how much should the health insurance spend and save. i despise such physicians. you are one in the making-- money-conscious. dude, you should have taken MBA instead. Medicine is not all about money.

[asianTSwantsMD]

Another troll trying to stir the pot about California.

a troll is an ugly doll. i don't look like that.

If he/she really has a primary care provider in Orange County, California who has received a California license AFTER the 1985 ban of Spartan, all he/she has to do to prove her point is to provide us with the name so we can look it up on www.medbd.ca.gov -- it lists ALL California licensed physicians INCLUDING THE INITIAL YEAR OF LICENSURE and the year of medical school graduation.

as OJ said, the burden of proof is not mine. I am neither a spartan graduate nor a cali board representative. be resourceful.

And PLEASE don't settle for the ** claim that mentioning the name will bring retrobutions from the state of California on that physician. California medical licensure is public record. If asianTSwantsMD's Spartan grad primary care truly successfully sued the California board for licensure, then he/she is protected by that court's ruling on her licensure... and since physician records are public BY CALIFORNIA LAW, mere confirmation of her school of graduation on the board's website cannot possibly be violating any "gag order" (however ridiculous this "gag order" idea sounds), if there is any. If the primary care obtained his/her license under fraudulent conditions by misrepresenting his/her medical credential, then he/she needs to be exposed.

well if it's rediculous, go and find something worthwhile.

So, to asianTSwantsMD -- WHO IS THE NAME OF THAT ORANGE COUNTY DOCTOR from Spartan who got his/her license AFTER the 1985 ban?

did you mean "what is the name of the doc"? why bother him when he is already in NY. now search for cases in cali you will find in <a target=new href=http://www.valuemd.com/doubleclick/click.php?mgr=aspcode.net&id=52><a target=new href=http://www.valuemd.com/doubleclick/click.php?mgr=aspcode.net&id=52>health insurance</a></a> handbooks. you will not find any on the internet. think out of the box before donald says 'you are fired."
[/b]

:ban:

mr. know-it-all, try typing health insurance it will turn blue by itself. you thought you got me ha? such a silly, petty mind.

[Miklos]

asianTSwantsMD: mr. know-it-all, WHO has a data about cuban healthcare. WHO is not a world body run by gulllible idiots. all you need to do is browse existing WHO data on the net and educate yourself. Even harvard university has a colaborative epidemiological project with the health department and government hospitals in havana. harvard is not passive to lies, political propaganda, and manipulated data. educate yourself before you talk like a parrot.

asianTSwantsMD: it happened in oklahoma. statistically it will happen in california. now, do your probability calculation if you realy want it to be a fact or exact science since you question what my eyes saw on my primary care physcian's wall-- a spartan diploma. that was my first knowledge that there is such a med school called spartan.

asianTSwantsMD: america did worse. remember the tuskegee syphilis research where black airmen were used as guinea pigs? how about the birth control pills carcinogen in the 60's affecting thousands of feminist women? did you forget agent orange experimentally used in vietnam war as a chemical weapon? dude, read real american history. stop watching fox news.

i asked you about hungarian contribution to the current trends in medicine not the list of nobel winners. simply, the nobel-worthy works of amartya sen (economics), Subrahmanyan Chandrashekhar (physics), Chandrasekhra Venkata Raman (physics), and Hargobind khorana (physiology and medicine) are not india's contributions to the current trends in medicine. do you still want me to break it down? dude, you are not brilliant. stop projecting. your communty colllege sciences are not worth bragging

asianTSwantsMD: an ambition has no price. residency is considered a school attendance, thus you can apply for loan payment deferment. if you are very determined, you will save some of the money you get from a US hospital during your first residency in general surgery for instance. $ 2,000 is way enough for a one-year plastic surgery residency in mexico, costa rica, or philippines if you really want to be a plastic surgeon. it has been done several times.

miklos you have no cojones to be an excellent physician. you are a defeatist , retreatist arrogant fellow. i think you will be good in sendng your patients home and telling them to wait for their eventual death. that is a scary physician-- the one who does not pursue opportunites, hope for the best, and work to succeed no matter what happens.

again your statistical assumption is skewed, mr-know-it-all. most foreign medical students in russia are asians, africans, and europeans. asians and africanss composing the majority of foreign medical students in russia are mostly financed by their governments with the contract that they will go back to their home countries and work there. with that fact alone, you can safely say that not all foreign students in russia opt for ecfmg and take usmle.

use logic for once, good sir. i mean bad mr. know-it-all. say something sensible and shock this "naive" fellow. your sellout views are devoid of logic and facts. you are indeed a good asset for HMO's. they love physicians who check tumors with their minds calculating how much should the health insurance spend and save. i despise such physicians. you are one in the making-- money-conscious. dude, you should have taken MBA instead. Medicine is not all about money.

Now that you've sunk to name calling, just a couple of things.

1) Ask most any Western neonatologist about Cuban infant mortality rate statistics.

2) Where is that phantom Spartan grad who got a license in California? Your tune keeps changing. Now, it is about statistics that make it likely that because of Oklahoma, California will follow. Simply post the name and prove me wrong.

3) Re: Politics. Unlike you, I've lived in a communist country. The U.S. is for from perfect, but there's simply no moral equivalence when it comes to communist dictatorships. Perhaps, you'd like to pursue your M.D. in North Korea?

4) Residency deferrment. It is not as simple as you put it. Yes, you may be able to defer or ask for forbearance; but you'll need to make payments at sometime or risk going into default. A general surgery residency lasts for 5 years. One will have exhausted deferments and/or forbearance by the time one is done. Going abroad after that is realistically not an option, unless one can finance it. BTW, many residents get licensed somewhere prior to finishing their residency so that they can moonlight. This is especially true when it comes to fellowships. One of the reasons that fellowships pay so poorly is that it is expected that fellows will have a license and will moonlight to supplement their income.

5) Re: Russia. Certainly. However, the statistics don't lie. I believe that for the reason I mentioned previously, it is a poor destination for North American students.

Lastly, unlike you, I am not a "wannabe". I will shortly receive my M.D.

Miklos

[Miklos]

Another troll trying to stir the pot about California.

a troll is an ugly doll. i don't look like that.

If he/she really has a primary care provider in Orange County, California who has received a California license AFTER the 1985 ban of Spartan, all he/she has to do to prove her point is to provide us with the name so we can look it up on www.medbd.ca.gov -- it lists ALL California licensed physicians INCLUDING THE INITIAL YEAR OF LICENSURE and the year of medical school graduation.

as OJ said, the burden of proof is not mine. I am neither a spartan graduate nor a cali board representative. be resourceful.

And PLEASE don't settle for the ** claim that mentioning the name will bring retrobutions from the state of California on that physician. California medical licensure is public record. If asianTSwantsMD's Spartan grad primary care truly successfully sued the California board for licensure, then he/she is protected by that court's ruling on her licensure... and since physician records are public BY CALIFORNIA LAW, mere confirmation of her school of graduation on the board's website cannot possibly be violating any "gag order" (however ridiculous this "gag order" idea sounds), if there is any. If the primary care obtained his/her license under fraudulent conditions by misrepresenting his/her medical credential, then he/she needs to be exposed.

well if it's rediculous, go and find something worthwhile.

So, to asianTSwantsMD -- WHO IS THE NAME OF THAT ORANGE COUNTY DOCTOR from Spartan who got his/her license AFTER the 1985 ban?

did you mean "what is the name of the doc"? why bother him when he is already in NY. now search for cases in cali you will find in <a target=new href=http://www.valuemd.com/doubleclick/click.php?mgr=aspcode.net&id=52><a target=new href=http://www.valuemd.com/doubleclick/click.php?mgr=aspcode.net&id=52><a target=new href=http://www.valuemd.com/doubleclick/click.php?mgr=aspcode.net&id=52>health insurance</a></a></a> handbooks. you will not find any on the internet. think out of the box before donald says 'you are fired."
[/b]

:ban:

moron, try typing <a target=new href=http://www.valuemd.com/doubleclick/click.php?mgr=aspcode.net&id=52>health insurance</a> it will turn blue by itself.

Again, please educate yourself.

The quote function takes apart the original post with the link, reposts it and the forum software simply adds another html tag...therefore the duplication.

[asianTSwantsMD]

asianTSwantsMD: mr. know-it-all, WHO has a data about cuban healthcare. WHO is not a world body run by gulllible idiots. all you need to do is browse existing WHO data on the net and educate yourself. Even harvard university has a colaborative epidemiological project with the health department and government hospitals in havana. harvard is not passive to lies, political propaganda, and manipulated data. educate yourself before you talk like a parrot.

asianTSwantsMD: it happened in oklahoma. statistically it will happen in california. now, do your probability calculation if you realy want it to be a fact or exact science since you question what my eyes saw on my primary care physcian's wall-- a spartan diploma. that was my first knowledge that there is such a med school called spartan.

asianTSwantsMD: america did worse. remember the tuskegee syphilis research where black airmen were used as guinea pigs? how about the birth control pills carcinogen in the 60's affecting thousands of feminist women? did you forget agent orange experimentally used in vietnam war as a chemical weapon? dude, read real american history. stop watching fox news.

i asked you about hungarian contribution to the current trends in medicine not the list of nobel winners. simply, the nobel-worthy works of amartya sen (economics), Subrahmanyan Chandrashekhar (physics), Chandrasekhra Venkata Raman (physics), and Hargobind khorana (physiology and medicine) are not india's contributions to the current trends in medicine. do you still want me to break it down? dude, you are not brilliant. stop projecting. your communty colllege sciences are not worth bragging

asianTSwantsMD: an ambition has no price. residency is considered a school attendance, thus you can apply for loan payment deferment. if you are very determined, you will save some of the money you get from a US hospital during your first residency in general surgery for instance. $ 2,000 is way enough for a one-year plastic surgery residency in mexico, costa rica, or philippines if you really want to be a plastic surgeon. it has been done several times.

miklos you have no cojones to be an excellent physician. you are a defeatist , retreatist arrogant fellow. i think you will be good in sendng your patients home and telling them to wait for their eventual death. that is a scary physician-- the one who does not pursue opportunites, hope for the best, and work to succeed no matter what happens.

again your statistical assumption is skewed, mr-know-it-all. most foreign medical students in russia are asians, africans, and europeans. asians and africanss composing the majority of foreign medical students in russia are mostly financed by their governments with the contract that they will go back to their home countries and work there. with that fact alone, you can safely say that not all foreign students in russia opt for ecfmg and take usmle.

use logic for once, good sir. i mean bad mr. know-it-all. say something sensible and shock this "naive" fellow. your sellout views are devoid of logic and facts. you are indeed a good asset for HMO's. they love physicians who check tumors with their minds calculating how much should the health insurance spend and save. i despise such physicians. you are one in the making-- money-conscious. dude, you should have taken MBA instead. Medicine is not all about money.

Now that you've sunk to name calling, just a couple of things.

1) Ask most any Western neonatologist about Cuban infant mortality rate statistics.

my god you have something negative to say for every country and med school except hungary and your med school. medicine should know no borders. open your mind. please act like a soon-to-be doc.

2) Where is that phantom Spartan grad who got a license in California? Your tune keeps changing. Now, it is about statistics that make it likely that because of Oklahoma, California will follow. Simply post the name and prove me wrong.

i need to contact him first before i post his name. i don't resort to unethical behavior just to boost my ego or shut one's blabbing mouth up. though he is now practicing in NYC, he can tell you how he got licensed in cali. for now, browse kaiser and fhp handbooks, you will still find some.

3) Re: Politics. Unlike you, I've lived in a communist country. The U.S. is for from perfect, but there's simply no moral equivalence when it comes to communist dictatorships. Perhaps, you'd like to pursue your M.D. in North Korea?

who told you i am pro-communist? i may like the idea of socialized medicine, that does not mean i am, the least, a socialist. communist? first, real communism has not existed yet. countries with communist in names are socialist in forms. well you have no business where one goes for his MD. if i know about north korea's med school and medicine, and if it's challenging enough, i will.

4) Residency deferrment. It is not as simple as you put it. Yes, you may be able to defer or ask for forbearance; but you'll need to make payments at sometime or risk going into default. A general surgery residency lasts for 5 years. One will have exhausted deferments and/or forbearance by the time one is done. Going abroad after that is realistically not an option, unless one can finance it. BTW, many residents get licensed somewhere prior to finishing their residency so that they can moonlight. This is especially true when it comes to fellowships. One of the reasons that fellowships pay so poorly is that it is expected that fellows will have a license and will moonlight to supplement their income.

you are such a pessimist. a pessimistic surgeon is dangerous. he might stop in the middle of surgery and declare, "we can't do anything." miklos in all your posts, you write all the negatives a pessimist can muster. you can't do this. you can''t do that. why not say you can?

5) Re: Russia. Certainly. However, the statistics don't lie. I believe that for the reason I mentioned previously, it is a poor destination for North American students.

it is a poor destination for North American students not because your hungarian school is better than mma sechenov or moscow state university. maybe because of skinheads and language barrier.


Lastly, unlike you, I am not a "wannabe". I will shortly receive my M.D.

going to med school and getting an MD is not a race. sorry i hate competition. medicine should be devoid of it. only through cooperation will the goal of medicine be met. congratulations you will be an MD soon. me, a wannabe? i will have 6 years still to toil. I see this more as an inexpensive challenge or island adventure mentally comparable to rock climbing. i want to find out if i can be a doc for just 10 grand. if i can be, then there is no reason for me to be a leech to my future patients. that's the reason why going to a US med school after my undergrad and applying for student loans did not sound appealing to me. now let this wannabe still believe that there are docs out there who are not as money-conscious and hungry as you.

[Miklos]

Now that you've sunk to name calling, just a couple of things.

1) Ask most any Western neonatologist about Cuban infant mortality rate statistics.

my god you have something negative to say for every country and med school except hungary and your med school. medicine should know no borders. open your mind. please act like a soon-to-be doc.

:lol: Actually, I'm pretty critical regarding schools here as well.


2) Where is that phantom Spartan grad who got a license in California? Your tune keeps changing. Now, it is about statistics that make it likely that because of Oklahoma, California will follow. Simply post the name and prove me wrong.

i need to contact him first before i post his name. i don't resort to unethical behavior just to boost my ego or shut one's blabbing mouth up. though he is now practicing in NYC, he can tell you how he got licensed in cali. for now, browse kaiser and fhp handbooks, you will still find some.

That's **. California law makes physician's licenses public record, whether past or present. Simply post the name or use the California look up tool to get the license number and post it, so that we can look up. Put up or shut up.


3) Re: Politics. Unlike you, I've lived in a communist country. The U.S. is for from perfect, but there's simply no moral equivalence when it comes to communist dictatorships. Perhaps, you'd like to pursue your M.D. in North Korea?

who told you i am pro-communist? i may like the idea of socialized medicine, that does not mean i am, the least, a socialist. communist? first, real communism has not existed yet. countries with communist in names are socialist in forms. well you have no business where one goes for his MD. if i know about north korea's med school and medicine, and if it's challenging enough, i will.

Luckily enough, for you, there are ten medical schools listed in N. Korea. See http://imed.ecfmg.org/results.asp?country=582&school=&currpage=1&cname=N ORTH+KOREA&city=&region=AS&rname=Asia&psize=25

I'm sure that the "Great Leader" would welcome your dollars.


4) Residency deferrment. It is not as simple as you put it. Yes, you may be able to defer or ask for forbearance; but you'll need to make payments at sometime or risk going into default. A general surgery residency lasts for 5 years. One will have exhausted deferments and/or forbearance by the time one is done. Going abroad after that is realistically not an option, unless one can finance it. BTW, many residents get licensed somewhere prior to finishing their residency so that they can moonlight. This is especially true when it comes to fellowships. One of the reasons that fellowships pay so poorly is that it is expected that fellows will have a license and will moonlight to supplement their income.

you are such a pessimist. a pessimistic surgeon is dangerous. he might stop in the middle of surgery and declare, "we can't do anything." miklos in all your posts, you write all the negatives a pessimist can muster. you can't do this. you can''t do that. why not say you can?

Stop living in that dream world of yours and delivering bad advice. If you are going to propose a solution, solve the associated problems. That, BTW, IS part of medicine. Wishing something away does not make it so.


5) Re: Russia. Certainly. However, the statistics don't lie. I believe that for the reason I mentioned previously, it is a poor destination for North American students.

it is a poor destination for North American students not because your hungarian school is better than mma sechenov or moscow state university. maybe because of skinheads and language barrier.


Whatever.


Lastly, unlike you, I am not a "wannabe". I will shortly receive my M.D.

going to med school and getting an MD is not a race. sorry i hate competition. medicine should be devoid of it. only through cooperation will the goal of medicine be met. congratulations you will be an MD soon. me, a wannabe? i will have 6 years still to toil. I see this more as an inexpensive challenge or island adventure mentally comparable to rock climbing. i want to find out if i can be a doc for just 10 grand. if i can be, then there is no reason for me to be a leech to my future patients. that's the reason why going to a US med school after my undergrad and applying for student loans did not sound appealing to me. now let this wannabe still believe that there are docs out there who are not as money-conscious and hungry as you.

Good luck "wannabe".

[asianTSwantsMD]

i am done with you miklos. i will stick to my unsolicited role of being a poster of unconventional ideas, options, and routes to counter pessimists like you. the world is not a gulag prison where you have only one option to thrive-- follow the strict rules.

[Miklos]

i am done with you miklos. i will stick to my unsolicited role of being a poster of unconventional ideas, options, and routes to counter pessimists like you. the world is not a gulag prison where you have only one option to thrive-- follow the strict rules.

aka "trolling"

[asianTSwantsMD]

i am done with you miklos. i will stick to my unsolicited role of being a poster of unconventional ideas, options, and routes to counter pessimists like you. the world is not a gulag prison where you have only one option to thrive-- follow the strict rules.

aka "trolling"

yes, trolling-- the act of disturbing the nonchalance and indifference below me. afterall, a troll can also be a barge.

[AUCMD2006]

new reality show?

medicine on a budget. i don't think most doctors leech off patients. why don't you spend a few hours at free clinics and county ER's and see exactly who the leeches are....like my hiv pt who called 911 for a ride to the methadone clinic every freakin week, or the two or three homeless alcoholics every night asking for a bed to sleep in and clean clothes...they of course knew the buzz word "chest pain" that would get them a free night and food at the ER Inn, or the woman who wasted a $140 ER visit every few weeks to have a Rx for $4.00 tylenol written and each time looked like she just came out of the hair/nail salon....these aren't new and unconventional ideas you are throwing out there...just evidence of your immaturity in the medical world and the classic med student naivity that is quickly followed by a rude awakening....

i feel lucky that i worked in the medicval field for a few years before starting this that is why while your type is sitting with hemp sandals singing kumbaya and trying the healing power of chanting i'l at least walk in there with realistic expectations

[asianTSwantsMD]

new reality show?

medicine on a budget. i don't think most doctors leech off patients. why don't you spend a few hours at free clinics and county ER's and see exactly who the leeches are....like my hiv pt who called 911 for a ride to the methadone clinic every freakin week, or the two or three homeless alcoholics every night asking for a bed to sleep in and clean clothes...they of course knew the buzz word "chest pain" that would get them a free night and food at the ER Inn, or the woman who wasted a $140 ER visit every few weeks to have a Rx for $4.00 tylenol written and each time looked like she just came out of the hair/nail salon....these aren't new and unconventional ideas you are throwing out there...just evidence of your immaturity in the medical world and the classic med student naivity that is quickly followed by a rude awakening....

i feel lucky that i worked in the medicval field for a few years before starting this that is why while your type is sitting with hemp sandals singing kumbaya and trying the healing power of chanting i'l at least walk in there with realistic expectations

your made up reality is such a show.

hiv patients in the US are considered disabled. there are gov't-owned or subsidized vans for transporting disabled patients. 911 does not give a ride. if a non-emergency patients calls, 911 redirect the call to van services.

ER does not serve food. you are funny. hospital gowns are both not clean and not normal clothing your homeless people would wear. in case you don't know you cannot take a shower in the ER. the most they can do if you are really dirty and wounded is to wash and clean the area of your body to be treated. now you sound so naive.

there is a triage nurse to assess the patients if they are just lying or being dramatic. when an ER nurse sees a habitual lying, dramatic homeless person with his usual "chest pain" magic buzz, he will either end up in a psychiatric facility or homeless shelter. I worked as an ER admission receptionist when i was 18. i know the ER protocols.

these are how hospitals use these so called homeless patients. they put them under medical program for indigent patients. in california such patients will receive treatment under SSI. after the homeless patient is released, it's medical billing time. now this doctor can bloat his charges. even if he just applies neusporin on the homeless patient's cut, he charges like he performs a brain surgery. cottonballs, gauze, and plaster/tape are listed in the bill by piece. a cottonball is a dollar. docs and hospitals love these patients without home addresses. the state and the taxpayers will pay anyway even these patients take placebo m&m's from these corrupt doctors. i guess you missed the expose on dateline NBC last week on this issue-- fleecing america and leeching patients. now who is naive?

when i say unconventional ideas, options, and routes, i dare you not to repeat what is simple, usual, or obvious. we already know these. tell us something different. telling the people to be passive to unjust rules and corrupt policies is definitely not different and unconventional. most prefer to hear unconventional ways to beat the oppressive system in a legal way. personally it annoys me to hear people telling others to be scared to the status quo and that they can't do anything about it. for a change, why not share stuff that helps people think on how to go against the status quo and beat the system squarely?

[teratos]

Actually, non-emergent patients call 911 all the time. They get an ambualnce ride. People who abuse the system know the system. "Chest pain" will get you a quick admit to the ER, and likely an overnight stay.

Most ERs will serve food if there is no reason the patients can't eat. Hospitals in general can't fleece homeless patients, where on earth would you send the bill? You watched Dateline? I teach at in inner city hospital that does a lot of charity. i see this stuff first hand. I submit bills for my services to indigent patients...know how much I see?? If you guessed $0, you guessed correctly. It is just a formality, really. They do get good care. There are no bloated charges. Not from what I have seen.

I do agree that we should not be satisfied with the status quo. G

[AUCMD2006]

what opressive system you are stoned! this is were people from your pinnacle society cuba come to to escape oprssion!... :lol:

"I worked as an ER admission receptionist when i was 18. i know the ER protocols." again your newnes to the game is evident

then that must have beena long time ago...i worked at three hospitals in two states in last two years...you never discharge or refuse admit to anyone with a complaint even though you and anyone else knows its ** they all get the work up. everyone knows the buzz words. two out of the three hospitals had showers in the ER that pts were asked to use if they offended the nose, then they also had piles of donated clothes, toys, books etc that is where the clothes came. from the way you word your knowledge of the ER i would venture to say that maybe yours was a very brief cameo at one.

ambulance services are required to take anyone that requests it to the hospital regardless of how thy look. (the methadone clinic was two blocks away from the hospital) otherwise bleeding heart excuse makers would complain that these poor people are being mistreated and denied their "right" to medical care....wake up please wake up...the longer you wait the more depressing it will be.

as for the billing of hospitals i agree they inflate them but the reason is the governemnts own continuous cut back or miniscule increase in reimbursement. if you are barely covering the cost of a procedure then there is no money to pay for the charity cases so by itemizing each thing used you can get a few extra bucks to help defer to cost from the indigent patients....you do know most hospitals are non-profit right?

medicaid has a fixed reimbursement schedule and medicare is the same so there is no way to overcharge them just itemize and bill everything you use.....they make doctors itemize every last little thing done not to mention the level code from 99211 to 99214 and so on depends on how many systems you review, how much info you impart and a confusing reimbursement algorythm so whats fair for them is fair for us i say.

i think that changes are coming and are needed but you can't blindly ignore the drain that these people put on the system and ignore the gross failure that your utopia of socialized, one payer, whatever you want to call it, medicine is.

[asianTSwantsMD]

what opressive system you are stoned! this is were people from your pinnacle society cuba come to to escape oprssion!... :lol:

if there is oppression in cuba, it is political because of the socialist system. but an institutionalized injustice in a democracy like america? that is plain bureaucratic power trip. at least castro's oppression is understandable because that is the nature of socialism. how about the cali board's discriminatory licensing policy of rejecting americans who graduated from spartan, a modern med school, and not the afghans from a mud hut med university teaching herbology, reflexology, and iridology in their medical curriculum?"

"I worked as an ER admission receptionist when i was 18. i know the ER protocols." again your newnes to the game is evident

then that must have beena long time ago...i worked at three hospitals in two states in last two years...you never discharge or refuse admit to anyone with a complaint even though you and anyone else knows its ** they all get the work up. everyone knows the buzz words. two out of the three hospitals had showers in the ER that pts were asked to use if they offended the nose, then they also had piles of donated clothes, toys, books etc that is where the clothes came. from the way you word your knowledge of the ER i would venture to say that maybe yours was a very brief cameo at one.
l
dude, i am not an antique like you. i just turned 21. besides, most of my asian friends are ER nurses, and 3 of my relatives are ER docs. don't fool me. as my nurse friend said, "we use our brains too, that's why there is triage to assess if the patient is nothing but crazy.

don't change your story. earlier you lambasted dirty homeless guys who are habitual abusers of the system. ER people know when the system is abused. there is no way they will remain silent to such repeated abuses. in my two years working in ER, i did never call the hospital's food department to bring food for the ER patient nor see an ER patient take a shower. however, i did call cops several times to pick up homeless guys and drop them at homeless shelters. there, the hot soup, soap and shower, and bed waiting, not in ER.

ambulance services are required to take anyone that requests it to the hospital regardless of how thy look. (the methadone clinic was two blocks away from the hospital) otherwise bleeding heart excuse makers would complain that these poor people are being mistreated and denied their "right" to medical care....wake up please wake up...the longer you wait the more depressing it will be.

don't change your tune. stick to