New law gives medical licenses to naturopathic doctors

[OLDPRO]

no it is not the same as flu shots. vaccinations have a measurable amount of active ingredient in them to stimulate a body response. this is like putting a go-kart engine in a cargo train....logic follows that they are both engines so they should produce the same result? there isn't enough substance in the go-kart engine to stimulate any response from the cargo train and there aren't enough molecules of the 'active' ingredient in homeopathic remedies to do anything. test any of them yourself and see if anything come sof doing biochemical testing...i bet you will get a lot of water, any form of sugars, and maybe some gelatin and coloring?

you are also citing the most flawed evidence in personal observation. without controlled trials you don't know exactly what happened. you will be surprised just how strong the placebo effect is....i have seen many accounts of it in action...most of which i probably can't say anything about but i was amazed at how much perception of what we do affects how we react......
Is it like a thousand years ago when in India they found out by smearing the puss from someone infected with small pox into a fresh cut of an uninfected
person, that person suffered but only 2 out of 100 died compared to the 30 out of a 100 not treated this way and got small pox?

Okay 1000 years ago didn't really know why but did it, so now we call it vaccination and know why, how do you say not knowing quanities or why it works is better then the evidence? One is science and one is malpractice!

[wizard17]

Like M.D.s, N.D.s must go through four years of graduate school, years of
clinical training, and pass a rigorous medical exam before being licensed.
N.D. candidates take many of the same courses as prospective M.D.s, plus
additional study in preventative medicine, nutrition, botanical medicine, and
patient counseling.
But while M.D.s focus on treating illnesses as they occur, Naturopaths
focus on keeping patients healthy and preventing disease and illness.
Licensing of N.D.s is important to uphold the quality of the profession
and to help ensure their services are covered by insurance. Over 29 health
insurers, including Mutual of Omaha, Kaiser Permanente, and Blue Cross of
California already cover alternative medicine therapies.

Naturopathic Medicine
Musculoskeletal Anatomy
Organ Systems
Cellular Systems
Skills of Communications
Stress Management
Chinese Medicine
Homeopathy
Nutrition
Naturopathic Manipulative Therapy
Minor Surgery
Botanical Medicine and Herbs
Bodywork / Massage Foundations



HAHAH this is just like DO's... infact i thought you had taken a DO propaganda paragraph and put in ND instead of DO hahahaahah

[wizard17]

Is it like a thousand years ago when in India they found out by smearing the puss from someone infected with small pox into a fresh cut of an uninfected
person, that person suffered but only 2 out of 100 died compared to the 30 out of a 100 not treated this way and got small pox?

Okay 1000 years ago didn't really know why but did it, so now we call it vaccination and know why, how do you say not knowing quanities or why it works is better then the evidence? One is science and one is malpractice!

because science today is based on evidence. if you treat someone without evidence to back up what you do, then you are asking for a lawsuit. that is society today.

this evidence can be gathered from clinical trials such as what they did back then, but would also be followed up with underlying testing to find out what is happening. that is the state of science and health you should conform to as a physician.

[OLDPRO]

Oops, I meant that DO's are more inclined for Homepathy but they use Scientificaly proven TX.
I keep saying that funny how these states really don't know what they are doing!:shock::rolleyes:

[swimguy23]

HAHAH this is just like DO's... infact i thought you had taken a DO propaganda paragraph and put in ND instead of DO hahahaahah

the difference is most of DO is based on evidence. I have rotated with DO's and would not be able to tell a difference if they didnt tell me they went to a DO school.....well that and the NYCOM patches they have on their shoulders

[OLDPRO]

because science today is based on evidence. if you treat someone without evidence to back up what you do, then you are asking for a lawsuit. that is society today.

this evidence can be gathered from clinical trials such as what they did back then, but would also be followed up with underlying testing to find out what is happening. that is the state of science and health you should conform to as a physician. Yes but Lic these ND has put us back 100's of years, they use treatments that are unproven by Science and are anidotal evidence.

[teratos]

I find it obnoxious that it keeps being stated over and over "The Naturopath;'s focus is on keeping people healthy". PCPs do that, too. What, are we gonna focus on keeping people sick?

[AUCMD2006]

I find it obnoxious that it keeps being stated over and over "The Naturopath;'s focus is on keeping people healthy". PCPs do that, too. What, are we gonna focus on keeping people sick?


maybe ND and allied health prof using alternative med see good results or see thier pts stay healthy because of the pt population that they see? i wonder how your practice would be dr durst if it was compromised fully of cash paying health freaks vs the walking time bombs that the typical FP/IM pt loads are?

to see if herbals work test them...the vitamin industry makes enough each year providing us in the US with the worlds most nutrient rich and expensive urine so why not back up the claims? i've always wante dto know wether chirpopractors can cure asthma and cancer...

[confusedkidz]

Can medical students transfer to these accredited ND programs with advanced standing?

[azskeptic]

Can medical students transfer to these accredited ND programs with advanced standing?

http://www.scnm.edu/admissions/transfer.php

[AUCMD2006]

"Natrum muriaticum is the homeopathic remedy commonly known as table salt or sodium (http://health.enotes.com/alternative-medicine-encyclopedia/sodium) chloride. Salt is the second most common substance in nature, water being the first. Salt is an important component in regulating the balance of body fluids. Salt is a constituent in both body fluids and tissues. Excessive salt intake inhibits proper absorption of nutrients and weakens the nervous system, while a lack of salt creates a lack of fluid, resulting in an emaciated and withered appearance."

this is the type of absolute crap homeopathy is...they are selling these people table salt pills!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! quacks... idiots taking the salt tablets think it works wonders eh?

[swimguy23]

"Natrum muriaticum is the homeopathic remedy commonly known as table salt or sodium (http://health.enotes.com/alternative-medicine-encyclopedia/sodium) chloride. Salt is the second most common substance in nature, water being the first. Salt is an important component in regulating the balance of body fluids. Salt is a constituent in both body fluids and tissues. Excessive salt intake inhibits proper absorption of nutrients and weakens the nervous system, while a lack of salt creates a lack of fluid, resulting in an emaciated and withered appearance."

this is the type of absolute crap homeopathy is...they are selling these people table salt pills!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! quacks... idiots taking the salt tablets think it works wonders eh?

i heard it works wonders for hypertensives :twisted:

[AUCMD2006]

funny, the article at the naturapath school actually used it on a 60+ lady with htn and angina....wonder who gets sued when she flops dead...the naturapath or the ER doc that cracked her chest open?

[microbiologist]

Sea Salt you mean ..there is a difference

[teratos]

He's right. The sea salt has other minerals in it, too. :rolleyes:

[AUCMD2006]

Sea Salt you mean ..there is a difference


ummm yeah (sarcasm noted) what is the difference? sea salt is mixed the feces of every sea creature?

doesn't really matter. to the 30% of hypertensives sensitive to salt it may as well be from martian polar ice they'l still increase their bp...so again who would get sued?

doctor: no she wasn't on salt...she was on "sea salt" given by a homeopath when she had an MI

scumbag encarnate aka "trial lawyer": oh well drop the suit then

[microbiologist]

prove to me that roland's sea salt or celtic sea salt is harmful where it is hand harvested and sun dried. There was no indication of any harm done.You must have your facts correct

[microbiologist]

and if you can't prove anything in a court of law for any allegations then you yourself should be sued

[microbiologist]

Normal Table salt is toxic and no obviously companies would not sell sea salt with feces plus being all natural it will never do harm for your body.I know lots of people that use sea salt and have no problems and make it a lifestyle now.

[microbiologist]

Sea salt is considered by some to be a healthier alternative to table salt, since it lacks artificial chemicals used in processing. Despite the iodine content of seawater, however, sea salt typically does not contain as much of the essential nutrient iodine as does iodized table salt. Therefore, diets with little seafood (e.g., ocean fish and shellfish) should include iodized table salt in addition to sea salt.

[microbiologist]

Eliminates calcium deposits.
Increases usable oxygen in blood.


Un-clumps red blood cells.


Detoxifies blood.


Balances blood pressure.


Contains the full spectrum of elements that resonates with our bones and enzyme and builds bone marrow.


Neutralizes radiation. (which is why nuclear waste is put into salt mines)


Makes capillaries more elastic and increases blood flow.


Adds extra electrons to the body, which are free radical scavengers. Electrons attach to free radicals and eliminate them. Otherwise the free radicals would contribute to hardening of the arteries and capillaries.


Balances energy field.


Offers entire spectrum of electrolytes that the body needs.


Helps neutralize uric acid and isolated sodium chloride.


Brine water made from whole Crystal Salt has been shown to increase elimination of heavy metals through the stools.


Reduces cravings for sweets.

[teratos]

I really need my energy field balanced. I'm in. G

[teratos]

prove to me that roland's sea salt or celtic sea salt is harmful where it is hand harvested and sun dried. There was no indication of any harm done.You must have your facts correct

Opium is hand harvested and dried in the sun. So is cocaine. G

[swimguy23]

Opium is hand harvested and dried in the sun. So is cocaine. G

carbon monoxide, methane and even ozone are all natural.....hmm where can i pick some up

microbiologist its a losing battle for you on a medical forum

[wizard17]

anyone hear of asbestos? yep, ALL NATURAL...

know how they get rid of it? asbestos abatement involves throwing it in a plastic bag and leaving at a regular garbage dump. its considered natural materials...

yay.....

[wizard17]

Normal Table salt is toxic and no obviously companies would not sell sea salt with feces plus being all natural it will never do harm for your body.I know lots of people that use sea salt and have no problems and make it a lifestyle now.

wow man, how can you honestly talk like that? you are a walking, talking, example of what not to say to prove your point. evidenced based medicine has never been phrased to you.

in "toxic" quantities, ANYTHING is toxic, water included (hyponatremia) - you know, that sometimes clear stuff, h2o? do you nd's use chemical equations or just say that "well i know a 'bunch' of people who do it so it must be ok" to clarify and validate?

do you know what etoh is? oh wait no chem equations ... alcohol.. yea, you know how its made right? its the feces of yeast! ewe who would sell that? oh wait....

[teratos]

Alcohol is all natural. It has to be good for you. Evidence based medicine agrees in this instance.....

[microbiologist]

First of all I am not an ND and ND's will not waste time on this forum becaue they will just laugh at the stupidity that goes on here.First of all I have always said that not everything natural is good.Obviously things like weed or cocaine are not good.Drugs can be deadly to your body.Besides substances have proven toxic on a pH level.Ohh yeah I forgot MD's don't know much about nutrition or pH.On the topic of natural substances,these large successful companies sell supplements based on tests in labs and proper analysis.The sales depend solely on the knowledge of people plus the great results people have experienced.People always go back to buy.Drugs depend on the government,insurance companies and prescriptions to sell.Besides not everyone that gets a prescription actually buys the drug.If they were solely dependent on advertising or knowledge of people,well I will be sorry for the industry after all the failures over the years.MD's talk about homeopathics like if they know anything about it.This time if you ask them to prove anything they say they cannot.Stick to drugs George.These things have worked for people especially when used correctly.It doesn't do damage like drugs.Plus the MD's that recommend drugs are contributing to deaths all around the world.Thats why the FDA has banned to many of them.How many supplements have they banned?
George you are being very sarcastic about salt being hand harvested and sun dried.You have no idea what the reason is behind that.It still has all the nutrients.You all should try to visit some of these companies that produce the supplements so you could have a little bit of knowledge about it.How can someone be so foolish by saying "Carbon monoxide,methane and ozone are all natural,where can I pick up some" Do these companies sell that? Have you ever heard of any company selling opium or cocaine that are hand harvested? These are just some examples of people saying the most ridiculous things.You think you are proving a point.Thank God ND's are not here because they will just laugh.

[microbiologist]

Alcohol is all natural. It has to be good for you. Evidence based medicine agrees in this instance.....

see? Stupidity plays its role

[microbiologist]

wow man, how can you honestly talk like that? you are a walking, talking, example of what not to say to prove your point. evidenced based medicine has never been phrased to you.

in "toxic" quantities, ANYTHING is toxic, water included (hyponatremia)- you know, that sometimes clear stuff, h2o? do you nd's use chemical equations or just say that "well i know a 'bunch' of people who do it so it must be ok" to clarify and validate?

do you know what etoh is? oh wait no chem equations ... alcohol.. yea, you know how its made right? its the feces of yeast! ewe who would sell that? oh wait....

Nobody will sell that obviously.They use chemical equations ,you should ask them.Plus there is a difference in the kind of chemicals used.Natural substances has a difference. Tell me how purified water is toxic.Evidence based medicine have killed people,supressed symptoms and caused harm to other parts of your body.Ohh yeah evidence shows that too.Yes a bunch of people" I don't need to clarify and validate anything.I am not qualified to do so.The laboratories in the companies that have scientists working there can do that.Try talking to them.Be brave and I hope they don't laugh you and all your MD friends out.

[microbiologist]

anyone hear of asbestos? yep, ALL NATURAL...

know how they get rid of it? asbestos abatement involves throwing it in a plastic bag and leaving at a regular garbage dump. its considered natural materials...

yay.....

What does that have to do with anything? Did I say asbestos is good for you? Sorry its not your fault you are brainwashed with drugs.

A dermatologist recommended a medicine to rub on my face to clear up a few spots.Guess what 2 days later my face has a large dark mark on my face and more spots came out.I stopped using it and used a product called Clearin from Vaxa International and my face is smooth and better in a week.2 Tablets a day all natural homeopathic.I think I should go back to the doctor and sue.What do you think?

[microbiologist]

I really need my energy field balanced. I'm in. G

example of sarcasm and mockery for something he doesn't have a clue about.

[microbiologist]

I guess thats why "Evidence based drugs" have people in worse conditions and patients have to constantly keep buying tablets for the rest of their lives just to supress what they have.Hmmm I wonder if they don't take it what will happen. Death? could be. Example of cure Vs treatment.How many doctors have cured people? None.Sorry the money is not in the cure.Instead they say things about alternative solutions.Cruelty plays an important role.
"Drugs" are a good example of toxicity taking place compared to a homeopathic where the evidence is alkaline.

[swimguy23]

I guess thats why "Evidence based drugs" have people in worse conditions and patients have to constantly keep buying tablets for the rest of their lives just to supress what they have.Hmmm I wonder if they don't take it what will happen. Death? could be. Example of cure Vs treatment.How many doctors have cured people? None.Sorry the money is not in the cure.Instead they say things about alternative solutions.Cruelty plays an important role.
"Drugs" are a good example of toxicity taking place compared to a homeopathic where the evidence is alkaline.

oh no i hope a bunch of ND's dont laugh at me and embarass me.....what would i ever do with myself.....oh man thanks for making me think twice.....get over it dude, most of us dont give a crap.....go eat your sea salt and leave us alone.....you are not going to win any arguments on a medical board.....ND's are not trained better than MD's nor is their physio and biochem better and more molecularly energetic to the psyche.....just do me a favor and stay far away from my patients bc i will call people like you out and for fun maybe do it legally.....by people like you i mean people who will treat patients with no evidence other than hearsay and directly or indirectly harm patients

[microbiologist]

although you treat people with evidence based medicine.It still does harm ND's and MD's are different.ND's know more about natural medicine and MD's drugs.I think if you want to say something about a natural or homeopathic medicine,you should ask an ND not go around spreading crap to people especially since you don't know much about it.Considering "Evidence" Homeopathic medicine has evidence,it may not have enough like drugs but in years to come lots more evidence will be made.Right now they are working on that but in the mean time ,homeopathic medicine works better and safer than drugs.Thats interesting considering not much evidence why it works.Maybe the government should spend some money and join the naturopathic medicine in further research and development which will make the world alot healthier and you won't have to go to MD's

[microbiologist]

at least I will stay healthy and millions around the world.I'm sure your patients take supplements as well.They don't need to ask your advice about them because you are not qualified in it.Supplements to support your body and keep it healthy.You see people are getting more knowledge,trying new alternatives and thing is it works! Why try to stop an advancement in something you never thought was possible? Natural substances that can improve on your health,prevent a disease and keep you healthy which have been proven even before drugs were synthesized.Even MD's around the world are getting involved in homepathics and herbs because they see how much potential they have and good in can do in a body once used correctly for the right person.They have open minds.Even Hippocrates did it.Why can't you?

These medicines will never harm patients.Once you use them correctly to the right person.Examine the person correctly not mixing it with certain drugs.Everything will be fine.I think you mean the drugs harming the patient like it did myself.Infact if I happen to pay you a visit and you prescribe a drug and it does any harm to me.I will make sure you get what you deserve because you are not going to get away with it.So you better make sure all the "Evidence" you say works.

[microbiologist]

Let me ask you a question tell me what harm can Conquer HA or Glucosamine Chondroitin MSM do do your body
plus these are 2 evidence based homeopatics
Please share your concern.

[The Trifling Jester]

NDs are witch doctors masquerading as scientists. They feed on patients fears for money and can cause irreparable harm. I will direct my patients AWAY from pseudoscience at every opportunity.

-The Trifling Jester

[microbiologist]

Americans and Europeans are turning to natural glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin sulfate because of their widely reported joint supporting benefits. These complementary therapies have gained the increased credibility of the once skeptical medical community. At the end of the year 2000, the National Institutes of Health embarked on a $10 million, 1,500 patient multi-year study to determine how these two supplements impact those suffering from joint pain, stiffness and inflammation.
New Rigorous Research Supports Glucosamine Sulfate
Osteoarthritis literally means “degenerative joint disease.” It affects more than 16 million Americans and is the most common form of arthritis. After the age of 45 it occurs ten times more commonly in women than men. Current treatments include medications such as non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs and in severe cases, joint replacement surgery.
The prestigious medical journal The Lancet published a research paper that investigated the long-term effects of glucosamine sulfate over a three year period. This double-blind placebo-controlled study tested the effectiveness of a daily dose of 1500mg of glucosamine sulfate compared to placebo. The results were published in January, 2001.
In addition to symptomatic improvement, radiographic images of the patients’ knees also showed improvements. Images showed that knee damage was reduced with glucosamine sulfate use.
This study confirms many earlier studies that yielded positive results, such as a study in May, 2000, conducted by Jean-Yves Reginister, MD, PhD, whose findings showed that patients taking glucosamine had far greater improvements in joint health than those who went without it.
Decreasing Fibromyalgia Symptoms with Glucosamine
A study conducted by the Vulvodynia Project, a research group run by the non-profit Vulvar Pain Foundation in North Carolina, showed glucosamine to be beneficial to female Fibromyalgia patients. It increases the texture and health of the skin, which in turn could reduce the extreme sensitivity experienced in the vulva and other parts of the body. Results show that 65% of female FM patients in the study, had improved pain relief as a result of glucosamine sulfate supplementation.
Glucosamine Sulfate – for joint elasticity and longevity
Glucosamine is the basic building block of cartilage, joint fluid and other connective tissue.
The main function of glucosamine on joints is to stimulate the manufacture of molecules known as glycosaminoglycans, key structural components of cartilage. If sufficient levels of glucosamine are not available in the body, the cartilage loses its ability to effectively regenerate itself and act as the joint’s shock absorber.
Chondroitin Sulfate – hydration for joint mobility
Chondroitin sulfate another immensely popular nutritional aid in the joint health category, provides the structural components of the cartilage found in the joints. It ensures the necessary hydration and material for joint mobility. Since cartilage does not have blood vessels to supply nutrients, chondroitin sulfate serves as the conduit for these nutrients to flow through the cartilage.
Several double-blind placebo-controlled studies have investigated the effect of chondroitin sulfate. In one study, [Busci and Poor, 1998], 85 people with osteoarthritis of the knee received either 400mg of chondroitin sulfate twice daily or placebo, for six months. The intensity of daily joint pain was assessed, as well as the time to walk 20 meters, and other standard clinical pain indicators were used.
Statistically significant differences in favor of the treatment group, compared to the control group, were seen in most measures of pain assessment. At six months, physicians rated the improvement as good or very good in 69% of those taking chondroitin sulfate, but in only 32% of those taking placebo. Published research continues to demonstrate why glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin sulfate have become two of the nation’s most popular selling nutritional supplements. The recommended daily dosage for this combination is 1500mg of glucosamine sulfate and 1200mg of chondroitin sulfate. It is important to look for the sulfate form as this is the most readily absorbable by the body, and is the form used in scientific research studies. The benefits take about three to six months to notice but apparently, it is well worth the wait. HW

[microbiologist]

NDs are witch doctors masquerading as scientists. They feed on patients fears for money and can cause irreparable harm. I will direct my patients AWAY from pseudoscience at every opportunity.

-The Trifling Jester

well they are the ones helping people.MD's feed on patients and scam them into paying money.They are not getting any better and have more problems in their body.I think you should try saying that to an ND and prepare to get sued.Alot of them are scientists and are also medical doctors and they help people.Obviously they make money but nothing is wrong with that.They provide a service and they are qualified in natural medicine.MD's by themselves are not.Why are they witch doctors? Do they participate in demonic activities? Herbs and supplements have proven to have alkalizing benefits and if you research them yourself you will see that they have done no harm when used correctly.You have no clue about alternative medicine because you are not qualified and have not done research on it.I myself are not qualified like an ND but you should try talking to an ND physician and ask him questions about his knowledge instead of talking nonsense.
What irreparable harm did they do compared to MD's? No evidence of that though.Hmm I think you have your facts wrong.Obviously you will direct your patients away because you are scamming people out of their money by feeding them drugs and doing harm to their bodies.When ND's step in you will get upset thinking that they will take away money or patients from you.Thats the only reason why you are saying this.Especially someone who doesn't know about the kind of medicine it is or the kind of work they do.You will automatically think its something wrong because its going against what you've learnt.You have to realise its something completely different and have nothing to do with an MD.

[microbiologist]

There are even MD's that work with ND's and MD's who become ND's later on.They have the same qualification as you and techniques but they see natural medicine being beneficial and yes have research and evidence behind them as well.You have not researched it yourself.

[The Trifling Jester]

What irreparable harm did they do compared to MD's?

http://www.naturowatch.org/legal/fenn.html
Australian Naturopath Convicted of Manslaughter:
Quack Device Implicated

Stephen Barrett, M.D.

In August 2003, Reginald Harold Fenn, 74, of Port Stephens, Australia, was found guilty of manslaughter in connection with the death of 18-day-old ******** James Little who was born with aortic stenosis -- a structural heart defect that surgery can repair. During a nine-day trial, witnesses testified that Fenn had treated the baby in 1999 with herbal drops and a "MORA Machine" and declared that he was cured. He recommended that parents, Michael and Elizabeth Little, not allow their baby to undergo surgery. Mr and Mrs Little then canceled an appointment at Westmead Hospital where ******** was to be evaluated for an operation to repair or replace the narrowed aortic valve that was putting pressure on his enlarged and overworked heart. The appointment was rescheduled after doctors intervened, but ******** died of heart failure before an operation could be carried out [1].
http://www.naturowatch.org/gifs/mora.jpgMichael Little was a patient of Fenn for 15 years. Elizabeth Little testified that Fenn had put two metal cylinders on the baby's legs and attached them to a machine. She also he said Fenn told them it would supply energy to the body and cure ********'s heart problem and that he had cured "hundreds with a similar condition." A cardiologist testified that he had called Fenn who claimed to have found a different heart condition and cured it as well as the aortic stenosis.
The government charged that Fenn had been negligent and failed in his duty of care to ******** by treating him when the problem was beyond his area of expertise. Fenn's defense counsel argued the parents' decision to postpone the appointment was not prompted by Fenn, but by a desire to spend more time bonding with the baby—time they believed they had, based on what doctors had told them. The jury issued a guilty verdict.
In February 2004, Fenn was sentenced to five years in jail, but the judge suspended the sentence because Fenn was hospitalized with cancer and said to be too ill to serve the time in jail [2,3].
The MORA machine (http://www.med-tronik.de/html/mora-bioresonance-e.html) is claimed to detect and modify the patient's electromagnetic vibrations to cure whatever is wrong. Its manufacturer states that the "inharmonious component of the acupuncture meridian energy/ information is lessened or eliminated -- the result is that acupuncture points tend to normalize." [4]
The Occidental Institute Research Foundation, a Canadian company that markets the MORA and similar devices, states:
MORA-Therapy is an all-encompassing assessment and treatment modality utilizing a patient's own "ultra-fine electromagnetic oscillation." The method had its inception in 1977 after development by the German physician Dr. Franz Morell and electronics engineer Mr. Erich Rasche from whose names the name MO-RA originated.
During more than 20 years of research, carried out by well known scientists in Germany and abroad, it was found that each individual possesses a unique spectrum of ultra-fine electromagnetic oscillations which can be electronically sensed, processed and then utilized as therapy.
Today, it is known that the chemical processes in the bodies of humans and animals are controlled by the "information" carried by and within these oscillations. Furthermore, organs and cell types possess characteristic oscillation spectrums which are at the same time unique to each individual. The electromagnetic oscillations referred to in MORA-Therapy may be compared to (but are different from and much finer than) the cardiac impulses detected by an electrocardiogram (ECG) or brain "waves" as measured by an electroencephalogram (EEG). [5]
It would be more accurate to describe the MORA as a fake whose practitioners are either dishonest, delusional, or both. This case illustrates the extreme degree of risk associated with use of such devices.
References


Ryan D. Naturopath guilty of baby's death (http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/printpage/0%2C5942%2C7102560%2C00.html). The Advertiser, Aug 29, 2003.
Naturopath found guilty of manslaughter (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/13/1076548218504.html). The Age, Feb 13, 2004.
Naturopath gets five years for baby's death (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/13/1076548205730.html). smh.com.au, accessed Feb 13, 2004.
MORA concept (http://www.med-tronik.de/html/mora-bioresonance-e.html). Med-Tronik Web site, accessed Feb 13, 2004.
MORA Therapy (http://www.oirf.com/recinstr/mora-pait.html)! Occidental Institute Research Foundation, accessed Feb 13, 2004.
.
.
.
.
.

Thank God for Naturopaths! Without them we wouldn't have the MORA machine!

Hallelujah!
The Trifling Jester

[microbiologist]

ohh please there are so many deaths caused by doctors especially "Medical accidents" So many of them would have been thrown in jail but saved by the government and insurance companies.Especially Doctors that claim these drugs work.Besides that is from Stephen Barett who is not credible and his claims were "Lies" from supreme court just to state cases against Naturopaths and anything natural.Thats why he was sued in the end. LOL

[microbiologist]

Besides naturopaths have to work within the law and the law cannot allow anyone else but MD's to treat patients.Others try to do it themselves.What naturopaths do is compliment any treatment.So your argument here is not credible due to the fact that certain individuals worked around the law

[teratos]

You should try to find a good naturopath forum. G

[microbiologist]

§ To have a suit against you, the patient must show:
o Liability.
o Damages.

§ 95/100 cases in court against doctors are lost because one of the above was not met.

§ Cases need a pre-litigation review to be sure that they are ready to go to court. All medical malpractice cases have to have expert testimony against the MD.
o It must be proven that the MD deviated from the standard of care.
o There used to be the Conspiracy of Silence: no doc would testify against another doc. This is no longer the case.

§ A med mal case is:
o You’ve rendered treatment.
o The patient feels that there has been maltreatment of some kind.
o They go to see a lawyer – probably one they saw on TV.
o The lawyer must decide if the case meets the proper guidelines.
o You will get sent a letter about the case.
o Then you contact your medical malpractice insurance carrier and they provide you with a lawyer.

§ Malpractice Insurance Carrier
o This is a liability insurance company.
o They hire a lawyer for you and pay the bill – it is your lawyer.
o However, remember that even though this is “your lawyer,” they want continued business from the insurance company so be sure your lawyer has your best interests in mind.
§ Always get a second opinion!
o Med Mal is JUST A BUSINESS!

§ There are 2 types of lawyers:
o Advisors – help you with property, taxes, etc.
o Advocates – take your side in a dispute.

§ Tort reform
o This will affect you as much as them because if you get sued there will be a cap on your damages, too.

§ When you choose a lawyer for yourself, ask around!

§ If you get sued and your malpractice insurance carrier wants to settle out of court but you want to fight it, chances are that you are going to have to do what the insurance company wants to do if you want to keep your insurance.

[microbiologist]

I don't intend to put sense into anyone's head here simply because here is only MD's qualified in drugs and surgery not nutrition and natural medicine.At lease have consideration for alternative solutions instead of harmful ones.If you don't like one just chose the other.Thats how it is in the world today

[microbiologist]

Four years after a blood transfusion, Francine Damiano learned she had AIDS. Now, three years after her death, the Florida Supreme Court must decide whether her family members should lose something else: the right to sue the doctor they say is responsible.
Taking aim at one of the state's more controversial statutes, the Damianos are asking the court to excuse people with AIDS from Florida's strict four-year limit on filing medical-malpractice claims. Because the AIDS virus can go undetected for many years, the Damianos argue, the time limit effectively denies them what they say is their constitutional right to sue for redress of injuries.
"Your rights expire before you even know you have a reason to bring suit," says Richard Sherman, one of the family's attorneys.
If the high court agrees, the Damiano case could poke a hole in a key line of defense against AIDS-related medical cases and weaken a law Florida doctors have guarded for years.
"This would be setting a new precedent," says Richard Bagby, a Winter Park doctor who is president of the Florida Medical Association, the Tallahassee-based doctors lobby. "It would . . . erode the statute."
The Florida Academy of Trial Lawyers has fought the time limit since 1988 -- with little success. This year, though, the group was able to extend protection from any expiration for children until age eight. The bill passed the state Legislature, despite strong opposition from doctors and insurers.
Even so, the Damianos face an uphill battle. Florida's courts have upheld the time limit in the past, even in cases in which the plaintiff didn't know the cause -- bungled surgery, for example -- until it was too late to sue.
In striking down past challenges to the statute, the state high court has defended time limits as a tool to control rising insurance rates. By creating the statute, a court majority ruled in a 1992 case, "the Legislature attempted to balance the rights of the injured persons against the exposure of health-care providers to liability for endless periods of time."
But a high-court decision in the Damiano case would mark the first time the state panel has examined the time limit in light of the spread of AIDS. Some lawyers say the disease's long incubation period is a special circumstance warranting an extension of the time limit.
The state's medical-malpractice statute allows suits four years from the date a procedure is performed, about 1 1/2 years less than the average for the 28 other states that have similar limits. (Twelve states have limits equal to or less than Florida's.) Though about 2% of Florida's 57,000 AIDS cases have stemmed from blood transfusions, doctors are rarely sued, principally because the time limit has often expired and due to the difficulty of proving negligence.
Additionally, victims have little hope of restitution. In several areas -- including South Florida -- suing a blood bank is all but futile. Many blood banks in areas with large AIDS populations, including the target of the Damianos' lawsuit, can no longer get insurance because of the high number of claims.
"There's nothing here they can get from us unless they want a blood bank," says Charles Rouault, president of Community Blood Centers of South Florida Inc., the Fort Lauderdale blood bank the Damianos are suing in addition to the doctor.
Given the demand for better-insured targets, allowing exceptions to the medical malpractice time limit might open the gates for more cases against doctors, who are insured, says Mr. Sherman, the Damiano attorney.
A victory in the Damiano case could do just that. Mrs. Damiano, a payroll employee for the Broward County School Board, received a tainted unit of blood a day after giving birth to twins at Broward General Hospital in Fort Lauderdale in 1986. She also infected her husband, Alfred, 43, an air-conditioning mechanic, with the AIDS virus. But it wasn't until 1990, when she complained to doctors about persistent flulike symptoms, that Mrs. Damiano learned she was HIV-positive and had AIDS. She died in 1993 at age 35.
In 1992, six years after the transfusion, the Damianos and their three children sued the uninsured blood bank and Mrs. Damiano's obstetrician, Grover McDaniel. They charged that Dr. McDaniel negligently exposed Mrs. Damiano to the risk of AIDS by prescribing a blood transfusion that wasn't necessary. But the case against the doctor never made it before a jury because of the time limit.
Mr. Damiano, through his lawyer, declined to comment on the case. But Dr. McDaniel, now 70 years old and retired in Fort Lauderdale, says Mrs. Damiano's transfusion "absolutely was needed" to help her recover. He says most doctors were unaware at that time that a blood donor tested for HIV might give a false-negative result in the early stages of infection. He says that was the case with the blood Mrs. Damiano received.
While he sympathizes with the family, Dr. McDaniel says he opposes making exceptions to the limit on filing suits. "If you're going to keep medical-malpractice premiums to a reasonable level, you have to have some limits," he says.
It's a message Dr. McDaniel identifies with all too well, he adds. One of the reasons he retired: the $54,000 premium for his medical-malpractice insurance, a plan that only covered up to $750,000 in claims a year.
In the Damiano case, State Circuit Court Judge John Luzzo in Fort Lauderdale, who asked to hear arguments twice in the matter, reluctantly ruled that the statute of limitations applied. Judge Luzzo called the requirement to file a suit before any disease could be detected "unreasonable," but added that he had little choice, given district courts' past rulings.
The Fourth District Court of Appeals in Broward County upheld Judge Luzzo's decision. But even it added that upholding the statute "may be viewed as uniquely unfair" to the victims of diseases such as AIDS. So, the district court sent the case to the Supreme Court.
Mr. Sherman, the Damiano attorney, doubted he had much of a chance to win until the Florida Supreme Court recently asked for oral arguments, an invitation extended to only about a dozen noncriminal cases each quarter.
The high court's decision could have implications beyond medical-malpractice suits, lawyers say. It could also affect product-liability suits against blood banks and the makers of blood-clotting medications for hemophiliacs.
In those cases -- brought under a separate Florida statute on product liability -- many victims didn't file suits within four years of learning they had AIDS, as the law requires. That time threshold is more advantageous to plaintiffs, because the clock doesn't start ticking until the alleged offense is known.
Trial attorneys say a Damiano victory could clear the way for a successful challenge to the product-liability time limit. "The medical-malpractice statute is pretty specific: It's four years no matter when you find out," says Bob Parks, a Miami trial lawyer handling a number of the hemophiliac cases. "If they loosen that up, then it seems it can be analogized pretty easy" to the product-liability suits.

FLORIDA JOURNAL: Court to Rule On Time Limit For AIDS Suits
The Wall Street Journal - Wednesday, 23 October 1996.
Peter ********, Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal

[microbiologist]

Obviously if any MD goes on a naturopath site,they will disagree with everything you have to say.It works both ways you see.They can advertise you can't.That alone that I have heard was causing some doctors to make less money than the other.

[microbiologist]

Stephen Barrett was cornered in a Federal case in the State of Oregon not long ago, and asked about his income. He testified that over the past two years he made a TOTAL of $54,000.
How then does he afford to carry on fourteen (14) separate legal actions at one time?
If each legal action cost him $100,000, that would come to 1.4 million dollars ($1,400,000).
How do you squeeze 1.4 million out of a $54,000 total income?


Barrett is one of those people whose ambitions and opinions of himself far exceeds his abilities. Without ANY qualifications he has set himself up as an expert in just about everything having to do with health care - and more.
And this from a man who is a professional failure.
Records show that Barrett never achieved any success in the medical profession. His claim to being a "retired Psychiatrist" is laughable. He is, in fact, a "failed Psychiatrist," and a "failed MD."
The Psychiatric profession rejected Barrett years ago, for Barrett could NOT pass the examinations necessary to become "Board Certified." Which, is no doubt why Barrett was, throughout his career, relegated to lower level "part time" positions.
Barrett, we know, was forced to give up his medical license in Pennsylvania in 1993 when his "part-time" employment at the State Mental Hospital was terminated, and he had so few (nine) private patients during his last five years of practice, that he couldn't afford the Malpractice Insurance premiums Pennsylvania requires.
In a job market in the United States, where there is a "doctor shortage," Stephen Barrett, after his termination by the State mental Hospital, couldn't find employment. He was in his mid-50s at the time. He should have been at the top of his craft - yet, apparently, he couldn't find work.
It is obvious,that, after one humiliation after another, in 1993 Barrett simply gave up his medical aspirations, turned in his MD license, and retreated, in bitterness and frustration, to his basement.
It was in that basement, where Barrett took up "quackbusting" - which, in reality, means that Barrett attacks "cutting-edge" health professionals and paradigms - those that ARE achieving success in their segment of health care.
And there, in "quackbusting" is where Barrett finally found the attention and recognition he seems to crave - for, a while, that is, until three California Judges, in a PUBLISHED Appeals Court (http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/california_appeals_court_bludgeo.htm) decision, took a HARD look at Barrett's activities, and declared him "biased, and unworthy of credibility."
Bitterness against successful health professionals is Barrett's hallmark. To him they're all "quacks." In this, his essays are repetitive and pedestrian.
Barrett, in his writings, says the same things, the same way, every time - change the victim and the subject, and still you yawn your way through his offerings. It's like he's filling out a form somebody gave him...
Take an overactive self importance, couple it with glaring failure and rejection in his chosen profession, add a cup of molten hatred for those that do succeed, pop it in the oven - and out comes Stephen Barrett - self-styled "expert in everything."
Barrett, we know, along with his website, is currently named, among other things, in a racketeering (RICO) case (http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/RacketeeringColorado.htm) in Federal Court in Colorado.
He's also being sued for his nefarious activities (http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/quackbusters_barrett.htm) in Ontario, Canada.
Barrett (http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/Met%20Stephen%20Barrett.htm), in the Canadian case (http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/quackbusters_barrett.htm), has formally admitted, according to Canadian law, to a number of situations put to him by the Plaintiff, including:
"The sole purpose of the activities of Barrett & Baratz are to discredit and cause damage and harm to health care practitioners, businesses that make alternative health therapies or products available, and advocates of non-allopathic therapies and health freedom."
"Barrett has interfered with the civil rights of numerous Americans, in his efforts to have his critics silenced."
"Barrett has strategically orchestrated the filing of legal actions in improper jurisdictions for the purpose of frustrating the victims of such lawsuits and increasing his victims costs."
"Barrett failed the exams he was required to pass to become a Board Certified Medical Doctor."

[microbiologist]

"Quackbusting" - is a Profitable Business...
Frankly, "quackbusting" is a profitable industry, and Stephen Barrett plays it to the hilt.
In a Canadian lawsuit (see below) Barrett admitted to the following:
"The sole purpose of the activities of Barrett & Baratz are to discredit and cause damage and harm to health care practitioners, businesses that make alternative health therapies or products available, and advocates of non-allopathic therapies and health freedom."
Stephen Barrett testifies for money. He claims he's an "expert" in virtually everything. Those "expert witness" fees seem to be a significant part of Barrett's existence.
In a California Court case, former Barrett peer, and fellow Board Member of the National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF), William Jarvis PhD, testified, under oath, that Stephen Barrett and Robert Baratz conspired to use the NCAHF, without Board permission, as a Plaintiff in over 40 cases in California, where Barrett and Baratz were to testify as "expert witnesses," and get expert witness fees. The NCAHF Board was never consulted.
However, sometimes their plans fail.
One of those cases (http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/homeopaths_now.htm) caused the NCAHF to be saddled with over $100,000 in legal fees awarded their victim - and the NCAHF doesn't have the money to pay that debt. In fact, the NCAHF is SO DESPERATE for funds it is being run out of a cardboard box in the back room of Robert Baratz's Braintree, Massachusetts hair removal and ear piercing salon.
Those type of cases Barrett involved the NCAHF in were considered so heinous that the people of California just passed an initiative (Proposition #64) banning this kind of lawsuit for all time.
Barrett's claim to be a Consumer Advocate is an insult to American consumers.

Organized Stupidity is the Hallmark of the Quackbuster Conspiracy...
Barrett, and his vacuous minions, like to spout off other stupid "rules" that they think should apply to health care - the application of which, has to make the scientific community shudder.
One of the other totally BRAINLESS statements Barrett, and his parrotts, like to to screech out is "It hasn't been double-blind studied!!"
The "double-blind study" is one of about 45 different kinds of scientific studies used, and approved for use, within the scientific community. It was designed for, and is usually restricted to, testing new dangerous drugs for the claims drug companies wish to make about their new laboratory produced products. Generally, in this type of study, you give half of the group the new pill, and the other half gets a sugar pill that looks just like the original. This type of study simply does not apply to new research. Never has, never will.
And worse, the "double-blind study" is considered to be heinous, and was banned by world government during the Helsinki Accord in 1964.

[microbiologist]

) The Department of Health and Human Services And The Department of Justice Health Care Fraud and Abuse Control Program Annual Report For FY 2001 Executive summary, published April 2002 says:The detection and elimination of health care fraud and abuse is a top priority of Federal law enforcement. Our efforts to combat fraud were consolidated and strengthened considerably by the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA). HIPAA established a national Health Care Fraud and Abuse Control Program (HCFAC or the Program), under the joint direction of the Attorney General and the Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) (1) (http://www.northamericanconsumersagainsthealthfraud.org/health_fraudUS.htm#N_1_), acting through the Department's Inspector General (HHS/OIG), designed to coordinate Federal, state and local law enforcement activities with respect to health care fraud and abuse. The fifth year of operation under the Program saw a continuation of the collaborative efforts of Federal and state enforcement and oversight agencies to identify and prosecute the most egregious instances of health care fraud, to prevent future fraud or abuse, and to protect program beneficiaries.
Monetary Results
In 2001, the Federal government won or negotiated more than $1.7 billion in judgments, settlements, and administrative impositions in health care fraud cases and proceedings. As a result of these activities, as well as prior year judgments, settlements, and administrative impositions, the Federal government collected more than $1.3 billion. More than $1 billion of the funds collected and disbursed in 2001 were returned to the Medicare Trust Fund. An additional $42.8 million was recovered as the Federal share of Medicaid restitution. This is the largest return to the government since the inception of the Program.
Enforcement Actions
Federal prosecutors filed 445 criminal indictments in health care fraud cases in 2001. A total of 465 defendants were convicted for health care fraud-related crimes in 2001. There were also 1,746 civil matters pending, and 188 civil cases filed in 2001. HHS excluded 3,756 individuals and entities from participating in the Medicare and Medicaid programs, or other federally sponsored health care programs, most as a result of convictions for crimes relating to Medicare or Medicaid, for patient abuse or neglect, or as a result of licensure revocations. This record number of exclusion actions is the result of successful collaboration with state Medicaid Fraud Control Units (MFCUs) and state licensure boards."
To read the whole report, click here... (http://www.usdoj.gov/dag/pubdoc/hipaa01fe19.htm)

[microbiologist]

The "quackbuster" (http://www.quackpotwatch.org/WisconsinWar/who_are_these_so.htm) operation is a conspiracy. It is a propaganda enterprise, one part crackpot, two parts evil. It's sole purpose is to discredit, and suppress, in an "anything goes" attack mode, what is wrongfully named "Alternative Medicine." It has declared war on reality. The conspirators are acting in the interests of, and are being paid, directly and indirectly, by the "conventional" medical-industrial complex.

Millions of health freedom fighters, and members of the public, worldwide, know what I know. Public outrage and reaction is growing. After 25 years of unopposed success, the "Quackbusters" (http://www.quackpotwatch.org/WisconsinWar/who_are_these_so.htm) are now in real trouble... "The end" for them, has begun. They, themselves are being hunted.

The "Quackbuster Conspiracy" is in a desperate place now. They know they've lost the war, and are going to pay a terrible price for their actions. The fear is in their eyes...

CRACKPOTS?

Yes. When the self-named "Quackbusters" stumbled around to find a derisive name to call their victims, they picked the word "Quack," without ever bothering to discover it's origins. Its original meaning, from Europe, comes from the term "quacksalver" which was used to describe Dentists who were dumb enough to use mercury (a poison) as fillings for teeth. Look at propagandist, and "Quackbuster" king-pin, Stephen Barrett's website (quackwatch.com), and you'll find that HE IS IN FAVOR of mercury (amalgam) tooth fillings.
Barrett, his cronies, and minions, are not known to do intelligent research.

EVIL?

Yes. The "Quackbuster Conspiracy" was started shortly after the American Medical Association (AMA) lost the court battle to the Chiropractors in a case begun in Federal court in 1976. The Federal judge ordered the AMA's covert operation shut down - and leave the Chiropractors alone. The AMA files, library, etc., ended up in Stephen Barrett's 1,800 square foot basement in Allentown, PA. Barrett, and his minions, had the common sense to stay away from criticizing Chiropractors for quite some time. Barrett has since abandoned that common sense.

Federal judges have a way of enforcing their decisions using shackles, Federal Marshals, the federal prison facilities, asset seizure, etc... Even Barrett, in all his incredible arrogance, isn't dumb enough to match wills with a Federal Judge. I think the Chiropractic Association should consider re-opening the Wilks case in front of that same Federal Judge - and point right at Barrett, and his cronies.

In that early, educational case for me in California, Stephen Barrett (http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm) and two slime-ball investigators from the California Medical Board, had convinced members of the Laguna Beach Police Department that a nutritionist using ozone therapy was "a sex criminal preying on women." Flak-jacketed thugs screwed a gun into Salvatore D'Onofrio's ear, forced him to lie on the ground, and thus began a brutal, anything goes, persecution.

D'Onofrio's attorney was a hiking partner of mine, and told me the story on a ridgeline, seven miles up from a trailhead. I laugh now when I remember my naive response "This can't be happening in America."

Sal D'Onofrio, through his attorney, hired us, at day 43 in solitary confinement in the Orange County Jail. He was in "solitary" because that's what they do with sex criminals. He was in jail because the judge had set bail at $500,000, an amount his supporters couldn't raise. Barrett's minions were ruining D'Onofrio's life in the press.

We organized a bail hearing for day 48 of incarceration, put 62 of D'Onofrio's supporters in the courtroom, LA network television in the jury box, got the front page of the LA Times, etc., etc., etc., - and the judge let D'Onofrio out on his own recognizance. Seven weeks later the prosecutor dropped the charges.

Who are these people that would, so casually, inflict that kind of nightmare on an innocent man?

James Carter, MD's authoritative book "Racketeering In Medicine," published by Hampton Roads, carefully explains the "Quackbuster Conspiracy."

ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE?

"Alternative Medicine" is defined as any protocol, action, or therapy that isn't "drugs, radiation, or surgery oriented."
Wrongfully named? Yes. So-called "alternative medicine" is actually the health choice of planet earth. It is a combination of every good health idea invented by mankind, in every country and culture on this planet. There is nothing "alternative" about it. Labeling planet earth's health choice as "alternative" is, and was, a propaganda device.

North Americans have overwhelmingly (by their purchases) made "Alternative Medicine" the "health choice of the people" - for the best of reasons: it works better than allopathic, it "removes the cause" rather than "treating the symptoms," it is cost effective, it makes people feel better and think clearer, and it doesn't have all those horrible effects, and side effects, of invasive surgery or prescription drugs.

More than half of the US health dollar in 1999 was spent on "Alternative Medicine" and it was all out-of-pocket. Conventional medicine is being paid for, and is surviving, only because insurance and Medicare pay for it - the public won't spend an out-of-pocket nickel on it.

Alternative Medicine philosophies fit the "American (I'll make my own decisions)" way of thinking. Allopathic Medicine philosophies fit the "Germanic (follow my orders)" way. "Alternative Medicine" is for people who think for themselves - Americans.

The door to real "alternatives" is barely open. The future of medicine is right in front of us - it isn't in pharmaceuticals - it is in nutrition, body cleansing, prevention, oxygen therapies and energy medicine - all of which are constantly targeted by the sleaziest of the "Quackbuster" soldiers.

THE "QUACKBUSTER" STRONGHOLD...

The Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB), is a vital Medical Doctor (MD) control point. It is the trade organization of all 50 State's Medical Boards. The FSMB is the organization that writes the policy manuals, and provides training for, Medical Board investigators and prosecutors all over the United States. The FSMB is the "Quackbuster" police agency.

The "Quackbusters" use the FSMB to persecute two groups (1) "Alternative Practitioners" within the MD ranks (they treat them like traitors), and (2) non-licensed alternative health professionals (they charge them with "practicing medicine without a license").

The "Quackbusters" through the FSMB, have been able to change the focus of prosecutions against "bad doctors." They define "bad doctors" as those that use alternative modalities - and maximum penalties are exacted. We have seen in California, that real "bad doctors," those that kill their patients, actually get off with a slap-on-the-hand by using the defense "but I prescribed a lot of drugs." State medical Boards are not serving the needs of "we the people," they are serving the needs of the "Quackbusters," and their paymasters.

Medical Board prosecutions are funded by the States - Barrett, and his slime artists, don't have to spend a dime... I couldn't even count the number of "alternative medicine" practitioners currently under persecution from mis-informed Medical Board investigators and prosecutors. The damage done to Americans from this attack is incalculable...

BARRETT'S DUBIOUS CLAIMS ABOUT WHAT "HEALTH FRAUD" REALLY IS...

The US government has indicated that "Health Fraud" is a major problem in the United States Health Care system. Statistics show that "conventional medicine" rips off the American public significantly each year in bogus billings, false claims, unnecessary procedures and tests, etc...

Attorney General Janet Reno has a special nationwide "Health Fraud Prosecution Unit" to deal with this massive problem. The prosecutions are against mega-greedy hospitals, HMOs, ambulance companies, nursing facilities, etc. - all "Conventional" medical units - not "Alternative."

But, if you peruse Stephen Barrett's (don't call him doctor, he's not licensed) website, you get the impression that "allopaths" are to be classified somewhere next to archangels - and "alternatives" are snake-oil salesmen, akin to the devil's minions. Barrett clearly defines, in smirky arrogance, health fraud as "alternative medicine."

Huh?

Doesn't Barrett read national statistics on health fraud? Of course he does - he just ignores them. And "Barrett's parrots" at the FSMB mimic their supreme commander's every word in their policy statements. Anyone can read FSMB policy statements, in their entirety, on the web. Just go to www.fsmb.org and start reading. They, like Barrett, define "health fraud" as "alternative medicine," and fail to even mention the real national "health fraud" statistics.

WHY THE FEAR IN THEIR EYES?

Three Reasons: Exposure, ridicule, and public rage.

(1). EXPOSURE - Health Freedom Fighters, tired of the persecutions, and outnumbering the "Quackbusters" 100,000 to 1, are now watching Barrett and his soldiers carefully. They've decided to put a stop to Barrett and company. Lists are being made of who the "Quackbuster Conspirators" are, what their function is, where they fit into the conspiracy, who they work for, who their associates are, where they live, and what their probable motives are. Their daily activities, as "Quackbusters," are being monitored, and documented.

Health leaders consider Barrett, and company, to be running a subversive organization working against the interests of America.

(2). RIDICULE - Examination of Barrett's operation proves that the "Quackbusters" are a paper tiger. They are a construction with a 25 year old modus operandi. Their membership is small, they have an even smaller core group, the industry is turning its back on their extremism, and their leadership "public presence" is laughable. Their support network could best be described as "pea-brained."

Their "annual meeting" for the conspiracy was held in a Super 8 motel in Missouri - 25 stalwarts attended from, at least, six different plotter groups. Not very impressive.

"Bizarre" Stephen Barrett, his cronies and minions, even labeled two time Nobel Prize Winner Linus Pauling as a "Quack." The American public, in a consumer-driven movement, is rejecting, with laughter and ridicule, Barrett and company's ludicrous assertions - hence the term "Quackpot" is now used, commonly, to describe the self-named "Quackbusters."

(3). PUBLIC RAGE - The American public is just now realizing two things (a) that a good many of those "alternative" things being blocked, and suppressed, have been around for a long while - but not available to them because of the conspiracy, and (b) that the system to find and put new things in place is corrupt - and works against Americans. Every "cure" since polio has been suppressed, and the proponents of those cures, reviled by the "Quackbuster Conspirators."

Statistics show that every one of those "cures" worked to some extent...

Barrett (http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm), his cronies, minions, and henchmen, have every reason to fear public rage. Russian leader Nikita Khrushchev said it best. He said, "We would never invade America. For every American has a gun..."

"You mean my mother didn't have to die that horribly, or even die at all?" is a question more, and more Americans are asking...







var sc_project=951989; var sc_invisible=1; var sc_partition=7; var sc_security="4596f7bd"; http://c8.statcounter.com/counter.php?sc_project=951989&java=0&security=4596f7bd&invisible=1 (http://www.statcounter.com/)

[microbiologist]

MDs Urged to Denounce Malpractice Site
Texas Group Urges Doctors To Denounce Internet Database
That Profiles Malpractice Plaintiffs The Associated Press
http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040305_2234.html DALLAS (AP) - A consumer rights group Friday urged the Texas Medical Association to denounce an Internet database that profiles patients who have sued doctors for malpractice. Texas Watch said the profiling amounts to a blacklist. The Web site www.doctorsknow.us boasts of being the first company to profile plaintiffs, their lawyers and expert witnesses in malpractice lawsuits in Texas and other states. For $4.95 a month, the site invites doctors to use the service to "assess the risk of offering your services to clients or potential clients." A site slogan reads: "They can sue, but they can't hide." Dan Lambe, executive director of Texas Watch, said the site is attempting to scare patients. "This type of blacklisting runs counter to the Hippocratic Oath to the ethical and moral goals and obligations of medical professionals," Lambe said. Dr. John Shannon Jones, a radiologist who created the database, could not be reached by The Associated Press for comment Friday. He told The Wall Street Journal that people who sue doctors are going to find their access to health care may be limited. "That's a harsh thing to say, but this is a war," said Jones, who has settled two malpractice cases. The database has about 50 members and has fewer than 100,000 patient names, the Journal reported. Jones said in most cases, it doesn't indicate the outcome of a suit or whether the suit had merit or was deemed frivolous. That's one of the things that bothers Rick Beeson, 45, of Wichita Falls, who is listed on the database because he and his wife won a $9.4 million settlement in a malpractice case involving their 7-year- old son. The boy suffered severe brain damage, developed cerebral palsy and has had five surgeries to repair his vision after a doctor and hospital staff failed to treat his low blood sugar at birth, his father said. "We're against frivolous lawsuits like everyone else is," Beeson said. "At the same time, the ones that are warranted, people should be able to have the lawsuits and not be put on a blacklist. Who else is going to regulate the doctors if we can't have civil lawsuits against them?" Bohn Allen, president-elect of the medical association, declined to denounce the Web site, saying he'd only just heard of it and is waiting to see if it generates any complaints. "What this Web site represents is the bubbling up of frustration that many doctors have had with frivolous lawsuits," Allen said. "Patients nowadays have a right and do get a lot of information about doctors before they go see their doctors and there's certainly nothing that should prevent doctors from being aware of the small number of patients who abuse the system." But Allen added that he doubts the site will get much use. "Doctors are not about restricting access to health care and blacklisting patients," he said. "Doctors are about improving access and taking care of sick folks." _____ Taking care of sick folks -- for them is making sure they can continue taking care of MORE of them... DON'T be a victim! as the Yurko teeshirt slogan says.... www.freeyurko.bizland.com Thanks to "Scrap" on the VacLib Yahoo Group for making this important article known. It certainly corroborates with my STRONG suggestion to only utilize the services of a naturopath or chiropractor when needing the services of a medical professional. This is the protocol I have used for all of my adult life and we do NOT have health insurance. Never had it, don't want it, and NEVER will have it. My personal protest of the "system". Anyway, I do have one child, a healthy 18 year old who is doing just fine. No "disease-assurance" necessary -- thankfully. We DID have a crisis Fall of 2002 which was overcome by the grace of God working through my husband, Christie's step-father. I will share this story with any of you if you need to know the power of natural healing versus our current drug-based medical care system. Christie will be graduating from junior college with an AA this summer -- at 18. Had to get this off my chest so that more parents will opt "out" rather than "in" the current system. Medical advice? Common Sense at this point in time. Ingri Cassel, director Vaccination Liberation P.O. Box 457 Spirit Lake, Idaho 83869 (208) 255-2307/ (888) 249-1421 vaclib@coldreams.com mailto:vaclib@coldreams.com> www.vaclib.org http://www.vaclib.org> "FreeYour Mind.... From the Vaccine Paradigm" "When we give government the power to make medical decisions for us, we, in essence, accept that the state owns our bodies." ~ U.S. Representative Ron Paul

[microbiologist]

The Dirty Little Secret
Medical Malpractice Lawsuits Against Metro-East Doctors
A Study Conducted By:
Civil Justice Study June 29, 2004
"The dirty little secret of Illinois is that the Madison County
legal system has helped to create this crisis, and I think one of
these days we're going to have to take that on," a visibly angry
Rep. Julie Hamos, D-Evanston - an opponent of caps on
litigation awards - said Friday in committee debate.
- St. Louis Post-Dispatch, May 30, 2004
2
About the Sponsor
The Illinois Civil Justice League is a coalition of Illinois citizens, small and large businesses,
associations, professional societies, not-for-profit organizations and local governments that have
joined together to work for fairness in the Illinois civil justice system. The League's agenda is
limited to working for, and preservation of, a civil justice system that is fair to all Illinois citizens
and interests.
The League believes a fair and impartial judiciary is essential to a fair civil justice system. Thus
the ICJL and its members will closely monitor the performance of judges and will evaluate the
qualifications and experience of candidates for the judiciary.
The League believes the three branches of Illinois government, Executive, Legislative and
Judiciary, are separate, with clearly defined responsibilities. One of the responsibilities of the
Legislative branch is the establishment of public policy, including laws dealing with tort liability
and other aspects of the Code of Civil Procedure. It is not the function of the Judiciary to
establish public policy.
It is important to maintain public awareness of the problems of lawsuit abuse and thus the
League will continue to serve as a champion for a fair civil justice system in the news media,
through public speeches, and in the halls of government as necessary.
About the Study
The Illinois Civil Justice League spent countless hours over a six-week period in the Spring 2004
researching newspapers, legal reports, and Circuit Court records to compile data on the medical
malpractice suits in Madison and St. Clair County. Information was obtained from the Legal
Reporter newspaper, the Madison County Circuit Clerk’s records, and the St. Clair County
Circuit Clerk’s records. Internet searches have helped to guarantee accuracy for the report.
Defendant names were excluded from the data only in cases when they could not be identified as
a practicing physician.
3
The Dirty Little Secret:
Medical Malpractice Lawsuits Against Metro-East Doctors
Introduction
Illinois is in the midst of a healthcare access crisis, yet many plaintiffs attorneys continue to deny
the crisis exists or that the legal profession has in any way contributed to the problem. In May
2004, former Illinois Trial Lawyers Association President Michael Schostok was reported giving
the following testimony on the medical liability crisis before an Illinois House committee:
“(There is) no evidence that frivolous lawsuits are part of this problem.”1 That same week,
former Illinois State Bar Association President Terrence Lavin blatantly showed his fellow trial
lawyers’ opinions about the medical liability crisis: “Forget the information they're selling on the
frontpage of the Post-Dispatch or the editorial page of the Chicago Tribune, the 'crisis' is too
many doctors are injuring and killing too many patients without getting disciplined.”2 And, in
perhaps the largest denial that their profession is a factor in the growing crisis, Lavin told the
Belleville News-Democrat that he opposed Senator Haine’s bi-partisan HB 4847 because, “To
put this in as a fix for a problem that doesn't exist is just dead wrong.”
After nearly two years worth of media coverage, legislative and public hearings, secret meetings,
and medical protests, one might think that a consensus on the sources of the medical liability
crisis could be reached. However, just weeks after bi-partisan-supported legislation was drafted
to address medical-, legal-, and insurance-oriented reforms, the failure of the General Assembly
to pass meaningful reform puts the medical community, their patients, and the public back at the
starting block.
On February 14, 2004, the St. Louis Post-
Dispatch released some important – but since
unheralded – statistics about the nature of the
legal system’s influence on medical liability
in the Metro-East. In the article, “System is
sick, but diagnosis is elusive,” reporters
Kevin McDermott and Trisha Howard noted
that Illinois Department of Insurance records
revealed that insurers in Illinois are paying
out $1.47 for every $1.00 they receive
premiums.3 The reporters further exposed
Metro-East lawyers as suing doctors, on
average, more than twice the statewide rate.4
Critics have cited numerous statistically-void symptoms for the medical liability crisis, including
bad insurance company investments, bad doctors, and bad judges. Others have suggested that a
simple apology from doctors and patients could solve the medical liability crisis. However,
after careful analysis of data from the courts of Madison and St. Clair counties, the only
‘sorry’ that needs to be made is by lawyers to their local doctors and hospitals, to apologize
for overindulging in the filing of frivolous lawsuits and for inappropriately victimizing the
medical profession to the legal system.
“Figures from the Illinois Department of
Insurance and the insurance industry
reviewed by the Post-Dispatch indicate
that litigation may indeed be, despite what
lawyers say, a big factor in increased
insurance rates that are driving doctors
from the Metro East area and Illinois.”5
- St. Louis Post-Dispatch, February 14, 2004
4
Medical Malpractice Lawsuit Filings
When doctors examine a sick patient, they start by assessing the symptoms. However, before
giving a prognosis or providing a prescription for relief, doctors always diagnose the infection
that is causing the symptoms. For example, a headache will hardly kill you, but a brain
hemorrhage is a more serious matter. In the case of Metro-East physicians, facts are clear that
symptomatic problems, including the increase in medical malpractice insurance rates, are forcing
doctors to relocate, retire, or reduce services. However, the broader and more silent virus is the
spread of frivolous lawsuit filings that has infected almost every aspect of healthcare in the
Metro-East region.
The Illinois Civil Justice League analyzed lawsuits filed in St. Clair and Madison counties from
January 2000 to December 2003. In that analysis, a comprehensive list of medical defendants
and malpractice lawsuit filings was collected.
Lawsuits Steadily Grow Over Time – 2001 Is Banner Year
In a May 2004 Alton Telegraph article, the trial lawyer-created front group “Victims and
Families United” said that “the claim of vast numbers of medical malpractice suits” was false
and that “of the nine cases tried here over the past four years, eight have been decided in favor of
the physician.”6 Any Metro-East resident would wonder why a crisis could be caused by just
nine cases, but further study has revealed that medical malpractice cases average closer to nine
cases each MONTH, as opposed to the VFU estimate of nine cases over FOUR YEARS.
In the four-year period examined in this study, 422 individual medical malpractice lawsuits were
filed in Madison and St. Clair counties, representing an astounding 1,082 medical defendants.
The number of medical malpractice suits grew by 13% over the four-year period with the
number of defendants growing by 14%. Furthermore, in 2001, the number of medical
malpractice defendants grew 48% from the prior year.
Medical Malpractice Case Filings in Madison & St. Clair Counties 2000-2004
Year Total Civil Case Filings Med Mal Case Filings Med Mal Defendants
2000 2105 % Increase from 2000 96 % Increase from 2000 232 % Increase from 2000
2001 2689 28% 111 16% 343 48%
2002 2630 25% 107 11% 243 5%
2003 2827 34% 108 13% 264 14%
The chart above illustrates the increase in malpractice filings from the Base Year (2000). In
2001, over one hundred more doctors, hospitals, and medical providers were sued than from the
previous year. Even in 2002, the increase in lawsuit filings was 11% higher and defendant totals
were 5% higher than in 2000. In 2003, the number of lawsuits was nearly equitable to 2002, but
the number of defendants increased 9% from 2002 and 14% from 2000.
5
As many malpractice suits take several years to close, ISMIE Mutual – Illinois’ largest medical
liability insurer – and other malpractice insurers will be paying for the gluttony of lawsuits in
2001. For example, a listing of ISMIE Mutual claims closed in St. Clair County in 2002, showed
that 11 of 36 (31%) were two or more years old. Many of the 343 defendants in the 2001
lawsuits will have open claims against them for up to nine years. According to ISMIE Mutual
correspondence to state legislators disclosed in February 2004, an April 1993 claim took until
August 2002 to complete the legal proceedings. That claim resulted in no payment to the
plaintiff.7
In a May 2004 St. Louis Post-Dispatch article, the “Victims and Families United” questioned,
“People in this area have to ask themselves: Has there been that great a jump in lawsuits in the
last two or three years? The data says no.”8 As the statistics above demonstrate, the data clearly
says YES.
Half of All Doctors Sued in Last Four Years
Another startling conclusion from the data
is the raw number of individual physicians
and physician practices sued over the past
four years.
Of the 1,082 defendants, nearly three-outof-
four defendants represented individual
physicians or physician-owned practices,
which are the types of defendants covered
by medical malpractice insurers. The
balance – nearly twenty-eight percent –
represented hospitals or other healthcare
business entities that are typically selfinsured.
Individual physicians were named 568
times and practices were named 210 times
in the 422 lawsuits. Of these 778 individual claims, 367 individual physicians and 121
individual physician practices were named. Assuming that the physician practices include more
than one physician partner each, it is easily estimated that more than half of the
approximately 950 licensed physicians in the Metro-East were sued (either individually or
through their practice) in the past four years.
The rate in which lawsuits are waged against our local hospitals was quite alarming, as well.
Madison and St. Clair County hospitals were named in lawsuits 220 times in four years.
Hospitals in every surrounding county, excluding Monroe County – which depends upon the
Belleville hospitals for services, were named as defendants in lawsuits.
Nearly a dozen claims were made against Saint Louis University, Washington University, and
Southern Illinois University, due to their medical school affiliations with hospitals. Perhaps the
most interesting parties named in lawsuits included “Jim the Technician,” named in a 2002
Madison County suit,9 and “Drs. John & Jane Doe,” named in a 2001 Madison County suit.10
Total Identified Defendants 1082
Physician Defendants 568 53%
Total Individual MDs 367
Practice Defendants 210 19%
Total Individual Practices 121
Hospital/Other Defendants 304 28%
Hospital Suits 252
"Other" Providers 52
6
Overwhelming Majority of Defendants Only Sued Once
Still, trial lawyers continue to blame “bad doctors” for the medical liability crisis. According to
the Southern Illinoisan newspaper, former Illinois Trial Lawyers Association President Michael
Schostok has purported that “roughly 4 percent of doctors in Illinois are making up 47 percent of
the total payout in malpractice lawsuits.” In fact, Schostok said “it’s a matter of a minority
causing a problem for the majority.”11 “Victims and Families United” echoed similar statistics,
stating “five percent of the doctors are responsible for over 50% of the medical errors.”12
The reality in Madison and St. Clair counties is strikingly different from what the trial
lawyers profess. In fact, the Metro-East statistics point more towards five percent of the
lawyers suing fifty percent of the doctors. In close examination of the physicians named in the
medical malpractice lawsuits, two-thirds of the doctors studied were named just once over the
four-year period. The quantity of one-time defendants totaled 242 – a staggering amount equal
to one-fourth of all area physicians. Equally, 79 of the 121 physician practices were named just
once.
Medical Malpractice Claim Outcomes
In a March 2004 editorial, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch recounted, “It’s possible, we suppose, that
Madison County's doctors are worse than most. But we suspect that Metro East's lawyers are
simply more prone to sue, and they have a very receptive courthouse to do it in.”13 Granted, if
Metro-East doctors were twice as bad as their nationwide peers, only 10 percent of Metro-East
doctors (even the trial lawyers only estimate 5 percent of doctors as “bad apples”) would be
statistically-designated as “poor”. Yet, astoundingly, the Post-Dispatch reports that an estimated
27 percent of doctors are being sued at any one time, and ICJL calculations place claims on more
than one-third of the area’s registered physicians over a four-year period – and possibly half if
you include suits against the physician’s partners through suits against practices.
Regardless of accusations made
against the malpractice
insurance industry, there is
tremendous empirical evidence
that a major correction to the
Metro-East legal system is
warranted. This statement is
strengthened with evidence
provided by responses to
legislative requests from the
ISMIE Mutual. Their legal
outcomes data for the two
counties, spanning five years from
1999-2003, shows that 85 percent of claims closed in St. Clair County over that period resulted
in no payment to the plaintiff. Over the same period in Madison County, 71 percent of closed
claims resulted in no payment to the plaintiff.
St. Clair County Malpractice
Claims Outcomes
Claims Resulting in
Payment = 15%
Claims Resulting in
NO Payment = 85%
7
Medical Malpractice Lawyers
Article 1, Section 12, of the Illinois Constitution states: “Every person shall find a certain
remedy in the laws for all injuries and wrongs which he receives to his person, privacy, property
or reputation. He shall obtain justice by law, freely, completely, and promptly.” However, a
civil justice system that, over a five-year period, wrongly sues seventeen physicians to punish
three offending physicians is not providing any remedy for injuries to property and reputation of
individual doctors, nor is it providing justice promptly to those three victims waiting for their day
in court behind the other seventeen.
Until now, little attention has been
placed on attorneys who file
medical malpractice suits. As part
of ICJL’s exhaustive search and
documentation of suits against
doctors and hospitals, the filing
attorneys and firms have been
catalogued to provide an accurate
account of which attorneys are
participating in the medical
malpractice process.
Amazingly, one-third of the
Metro-East medical malpractice
defendants in the study have been
sued by the partners and former
partners of one Belleville law
firm: Cook, Shevlin, Keefe,
Ysursa, Brauer & Bartholomew.
The firm, from which Thomas Q.
Keefe separated,14 has operated
under differing combinations of
partners’ names since 1974.15
Another 20 percent of medical defendants are being sued by lawyers and firms that are active in
class action litigation in Madison County. More than 15 firms comprised this group, including
the more well-known class action filers – such as Carr Korein Tillery, the Lakin Law Firm, and
Hopkins Goldenberg. The attorneys for the firm of Carr Korein Tillery accounted for 77 medical
defendants, or roughly 7 percent of the overall total.
Five percent of the medical defendants studied are being sued by Ducey & Associates or its
namesake, Cornelius Thomas Ducey, Jr. Ducey was recently featured by the Belleville News-
Democrat for his “failure to obtain an affidavit in a medical malpractice case.” In fact, according
to the Belleville News-Democrat, the Illinois Attorney Registration and Disciplinary
Commission has charged Ducey “with dishonest, fraudulent or deceitful conduct” in a case that
is still pending.16
Plaintiffs Attorneys in 1,082
Total Medical Defendants
33%
20% 5%
42%
355 = Cook
Keefe Shevlin
Ysursa
Bartholomew
213 = Class
Action Firms
49 = Ducey &
Associates
465 = Other
Firms
8
Professional Discipline
Notable attention has been placed on professional discipline in the past two years. Victims and
Families United17 and Illinois Trial Lawyers Association President Michael Schostok18 have both
called for heightened disciplinary actions against doctors.
But a closer look at disciplinary actions
between Illinois physicians and attorneys
reveals the lax attention is actually on
lawyers. According to online records at
the Illinois Attorney Registration and
Disciplinary Commission, only 54 board
reports were issued in 2003 and only four
were issued to attorneys in the Metro-East
or St. Louis.19
In that same amount of time, 171 state physicians were disciplined by the Illinois Department of
Professional Regulation, including thirteen Metro-East physicians.20 Comparing the local and
statewide numbers for the two professions, local physicians were statistically more than
four times likely to be disciplined than their attorney counterparts and physicians
statewide were almost six times more likely to be disciplined.
Illinois Attorney & Physician Discipline Statistics
Attorneys Physicians
Statewide Metro-East Statewide Metro-East
Licensed 75,421 1,200 39,480 921
Disciplined 54 4 171 13
9
Footnotes
1McDermott, Kevin. “Illinois House rejects medical malpractice bill.” St. Louis Post-Dispatch. May 28,
2004.
2McDermott, Kevin. “Malpractice debate again puts Metro-East under microscope.” St. Louis Post-
Dispatch. May 30, 2004.
3McDermott, Kevin and Trisha Howard. “System is sick, but diagnosis is elusive.” St. Louis Post-
Dispatch. Feb. 14, 2004.
4Editorial. “Malpractice in Madison County: A plague of lawyers.” St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Mar. 11,
2004.
5McDermott, Kevin and Trisha Howard. “System is sick, but diagnosis is elusive.” St. Louis Post-
Dispatch. Feb. 14, 2004.
6Schmidt, Sanford. “Cap opponents use victims to make point.” Alton Telegraph. May 4, 2004.
7
ISMIE Mutual. Correspondence to State Senator William Haine. Feb. 5, 2004.
8
Howard, Trisha. “Two medical malpractice victims give perspective on insurance debate.” St. Louis
Post-Dispatch. May 3, 2004.
9Case # 2002-L-589. Madison County Circuit Clerk.
10Case # 2001-L-397. Madison County Circuit Clerk.
11Hale, Caleb. “Malpractice reform will not be easy.” Southern Illinoisan. Feb. 25, 2004.
12Press Release of Victims and Families United. May 5, 2004. Available at:
http://www.victimsandfamilies.com/PressRelease7.phtml
13Editorial. “Malpractice in Madison County: A plague of lawyers.” St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Mar. 11,
2004.
14State of Illinois. Attorney Registration and Disciplinary Commission. Available at:
http://www.iardc.org/lawyersearch.asp
15State of Illinois. Secretary of State’s Corporation Search. Available at:
http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/CorpSearchWeb/corpsrch.html.
16Powers, Patrick. “Medical experts often left out of suits.” Belleville News-Democrat. June 20, 2004.
17Hale, Caleb. “Doctors, Madison County group disagree on records.” Southern Illinoisan. May 5, 2004.
18Salvi, Schostok & Pritchard Website. “Disciplining bad healthcare providers.” Available at:
http://www.salvilaw.com/dsp_article.cfm?article_id=1.
19Illinois Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission. Available at:
http://www.iardc.org/co_recentfiledcomp_copy8.html.
20Illinois Department of Professional Regulation. Available at: http://www.ildpr.com/news/page9.asp.

[teratos]

Obviously if any MD goes on a naturopath site,they will disagree with everything you have to say.It works both ways you see.They can advertise you can't.That alone that I have heard was causing some doctors to make less money than the other.

Do you wonder WHY every MD disagrees? Actually, I have seen no impact on my salary. Thanks, though. G

[microbiologist]

there are many reputable ND physicians out there that are very successful and people recommend other people to visit them simply because it works especially if they have a health store when they make recommendations.Some also do live blood analysis trained by Dr.Robert Young .Innerlight International.Very successful.You should check out the companies Innerlight,Vaxa,Nature's Way,Nature's Plus,Universal Nutrition,NOW foods,RBC etc.They all have laboratories ,scientists,medical doctors and Naturopathic doctors working on their professional boards.Argue with them,ask them questions,ask about research and let them tell you what they think about yourself,"Like if they care what you think because you can't do them anything" They work with medical people as well and they all are successful because people are satisfied,keep visiting them and buy products all the time.They make about 10 or 20 times more than you all though.Hmmm I guess they are witches!

[microbiologist]

Do you wonder WHY every MD disagrees? Actually, I have seen no impact on my salary. Thanks, though. G

thats not true,MD's on THIS forum disagree.Other MD's have researched in these medicines because they care about the health of the patient and they want to further their knowledge and are not narrow minded.All the companies producing supplements have medical boards with Medical doctors and scientists doing further research and lab tests on the products to help market and produce them.Only the greedy MD will argue for a stupid reason though ,I guess because he/she doesn't know about the practice.So anything contrary to what you believe will be negative.Still no matter what you say millions will buy,improve on their health and contribute to cure.Especially since its becoming more popular in western society.There is nothing you can do about it especially since its a food.Same way a naturopath can get sued,you can too.Naturopathic doctors have rights too and are becoming more recognised.They have devoted their lives trying to help people in an alternative way and has a career in it and yes makes money but so what.Thing is the minority of naturopaths get sued especially since they are not backed by insurance or government.You all are and you still get sued.I guess the drugs are still in practice because of the insurance.

[teratos]

I use SOME of it. The stuff with good scientific data behind it. I like to wait for good studies to tell me what to expect in terms of effects, both good and bad. It's called being responsible. G

[swimguy23]

i read an article on chondroitin and some of the other things performing no better than placebo.....im too lazy an too tired to look it up.....i have no problem with a healthy lifestyle.....im probably healthier and in better shape than you

im pretty much done with this argument bc you seriously make no sense and your arguments are structured weaker than a grade school kid and your sources are even weaker.....also you keep mentioning of md's that became nd's.....show me a clear trend of this happening.....there are also md's that have become jd's, phds, and housewives

[The Trifling Jester]

It is telling that you have switched gears from defending the reprehensible (naturopaths) to attacking proven science (MDs).

Ta-Ta, I'm off to bathe in hydrogen peroxide, because my ND says it dissolve oxygen into my skin and help my asthma.

-The Trifling Jester

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Naturopathy/atwood.html

Naturopathic practices are a large assortment of erroneous claims mixed with a sprinkling of non-controversial dietary and lifestyle advice. Examples of the first category are the claims that hydrogen peroxide dissolved in a bath can provide vital oxygen through the skin of a patient suffering from an acute asthma attack [5]; that wet compresses applied to the feet of a child with an ear infection can "draw the congestion out of the ear" [6]; that the goldenseal plant can cure a strep throat, thus making penicillin unnecessary [7]; that balloons inflated inside the nose can cure learning disorders [8]; that strokes in progress can be reversed by cold compresses applied over the carotid arteries [9]; that multiple sclerosis can be detected at a very early stage by "pulse" and "tongue" diagnosis and cured by means unknown to modern medicine [10]; that enemas and fasting are necessary to rid the body of "toxins (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/detox.html)" [11]; that vitamin C is an effective treatment for approximately 100 conditions, including glaucoma, male infertility, and AIDS [12]; that HIV-positive patients should be treated with St. John's wort and garlic (both of which have been shown to interfere with life-saving anti-HIV medicines [13,14]), "acupuncture detoxification auricular program," whole-body hyperthermia, "adrenal glandular," homeopathy (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html), "cranioelectrical stimulation," digestive enzymes, colloidal silver (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/PhonyAds/silverad.html), and nearly 100 other implausible and dangerous methods [15,16] that high blood pressure and coronary heart disease should be treated with unproven herbs and "chelation therapy (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chelation.html)" [17]; and much more. Naturopaths advocate these methods as "alternatives" to modern medical care, not merely as "complementary" [18]. Interested legislators can learn more in the minority reports of the Commission and from a variety of other sources that I am happy to provide. I urge you to learn some of the details of naturopathic practice and to ask whether it offers a viable alternative to your own medical care.

[microbiologist]

you should stop using quotes from quackwatch because it is not credible and has never made sense to anyone but normal MD's.Although you say herbs,supplements are unproven,it still works positive and has been proven good results compared to drugs.I still think you don't know what you are talking about though.Its pretty sad

[microbiologist]

"Large assortment of erroneous claims mixed with a sprinkling of non-controversial dietary and lifestyle advice?"

Excuse me,these things work extremely well for people,especially the ones who have not gotten any good results from drugs or doctors,instead bogus treatments that only did harm.Erroneous claims? Any evidence of that? I don't think so.I guess you guys won't shut up until you actually talk in court to actually prove your arguments.Lifestyle advice works well for everyone including unhealthy people like MD's who take no supplements.Answer this why are carrots healthy for your eyes?Ohh was it proven? These people specialize in nutrition,natural sciences and some specialize in microscopy to compliment their practice for further analysis.I know a hospital that does it and works with naturopaths actually.You may make little points and opinions but no matter what you say,all the so called facts,proven knowledge you have will always remain presumed and constant change.

[microbiologist]

MD's talk but they do not specialize in any nutrition,supplements homepathics etc.Again there are MD's that use supplements on patients because they see the vital changes in health the clients have compared to drugs.Infact I know 4 pharmacists that devoted their lives to naturopathy.There are MD's that recommend supplements and change their way of thinking by actually doing further research and help with development of homeopathics in the companies that make them.You should speak with them though you might learn something.Its a shame that some people try to discourage others from using natural medicine that works though.Such a shame ..

[microbiologist]

this foolish person stephan is talking about claims naturopaths make? Yet they make claims when it work? He probably never spoke to anyone who have a lifestyle filled with eating right,exercising taking vitamins,minerals,enzymes and supplements .He has not made any credible arguments

I wish that one negative person from here would at least call one of the companies who makes the alternative medicines and speak to one of the scientists there and tell them exactly what you have told me about supplements.Tell them that they make claims to the various supplements they carry that works for people and let them show you the studies and research done on them.Infact there are many proven benefits of supplements.I am not the person to talk about it with though,if you are so concerned with these things and want to know more just ask them not me.

[azskeptic]

You obviously aren't too concerned having posted 3 or 4 times in a few minutes. Quackwatch is an award winning group that has debunked quacks and the psuedoscience you apparently find interesting would probably indicate you should be in naturopathic medicine,not medicine which requires a believe in science. You need to be able to stomach homeopathy and naturopathic 'science' which can't be proven by double blind studies.

this foolish person stephan is talking about claims naturopaths make? Yet they make claims when it work? He probably never spoke to anyone who have a lifestyle filled with eating right,exercising taking vitamins,minerals,enzymes and supplements .He has not made any credible arguments

I wish that one negative person from here would at least call one of the companies who makes the alternative medicines and speak to one of the scientists there and tell them exactly what you have told me about supplements.Tell them that they make claims to the various supplements they carry that works for people and let them show you the studies and research done on them.Infact there are many proven benefits of supplements.I am not the person to talk about it with though,if you are so concerned with these things and want to know more just ask them not me.

[Aviv Imanuel]

Too bad, the state of Arizona did not pay much attention to Quackwatch or you either. What happened, California followed suit?

Oh, well if you can study law by correspondence and get licensed in California, go figure, why not become a Naturopathic Doc!





You obviously aren't too concerned having posted 3 or 4 times in a few minutes. Quackwatch is an award winning group that has debunked quacks and the psuedoscience you apparently find interesting would probably indicate you should be in naturopathic medicine,not medicine which requires a believe in science. You need to be able to stomach homeopathy and naturopathic 'science' which can't be proven by double blind studies.

[azskeptic]

Too bad, the state of Arizona did not pay much attention to Quackwatch or you either. What happened, California followed suit?

Oh, well if you can study law by correspondence and get licensed in California, go figure, why not become a Naturopathic Doc! happened 35 years ago or so...before my time...california was funded by a millionaire's lobbyist...beyond my reach.

[microbiologist]

One of the other totally BRAINLESS statements Barrett, and his parrotts, like to to screech out is "It hasn't been double-blind studied!!"
The "double-blind study" is one of about 45 different kinds of scientific studies used, and approved for use, within the scientific community. It was designed for, and is usually restricted to, testing new dangerous drugs for the claims drug companies wish to make about their new laboratory produced products. Generally, in this type of study, you give half of the group the new pill, and the other half gets a sugar pill that looks just like the original. This type of study simply does not apply to new research. Never has, never will.
And worse, the "double-blind study" is considered to be heinous, and was banned by world government during the Helsinki Accord in 1964.

[microbiologist]

how can you call a profession that has helped millions of people in health quacks? I guess because homeopathics is something that MD's don't know about.Concerned MD's would want to go more into research and try to improve it.While people like stephan barrett would try to stop the advancement of natural science.Instead got sued and laughed out of the court room.You can't stop the advancement of science.People have their own views and opinions about both alternative and conventional medicine.Its up to them to chose natural or drug.You can't decide for them.

[Aviv Imanuel]

.."I guess because homeopathics is something that MD's don't know about."

And they don't care either.Homeopathy as well as naturopathy are unproven methods, Most studies are inconclusive. Do I want , as a patient to be treated by inconclusive "science"? Some people don't mind and that is their choice. I won't categorize them as quacks, but not as primary care physicians either.






how can you call a profession that has helped millions of people in health quacks? I guess because homeopathics is something that MD's don't know about.Concerned MD's would want to go more into research and try to improve it.While people like stephan barrett would try to stop the advancement of natural science.Instead got sued and laughed out of the court room.You can't stop the advancement of science.People have their own views and opinions about both alternative and conventional medicine.Its up to them to chose natural or drug.You can't decide for them.

[microbiologist]

Naturopathy, or Naturopathic Medicine is based on the philosophy which promotes the diagnosis, treatment and prevention of diseases and illness through the use of natural, non-toxic means. This includes Clinical Nutrition, Herbal Medicine, Homeopathy, Mechanotherapy (manipulation or realignment), and Traditional Chinese Medicine (pulse and tongue diagnosis, herbs, acupressure and acupuncture). But despite the non-traditional methodology (by Western medicine standards anyway), Naturopaths are very well versed in all aspects of science.
http://www.nextsteps.org/steps/sep98/naturo.jpg Dr.Trevor Hoffman, a Naturopathic Physician, says response from the medical profession is mixed. "From disdain to doctors who very much agree with what we do." He says his four years of training at the post-graduate school of naturopathy in Arizona was very similar to any medical doctoral program. "Everything we do has a scientific background to it. It's not old wives'tales or folk-medicine. There's scientific documentation behind pretty much most of what we do - 80 to 90 per cent - and that's surprising to most people. The last two years is where we focus on our modalities, our tools that we use, that's where we differ. "
Besides differing scientific philosophies, most N.D.s look at their patients as a whole, and not just as a symptom or disease. Naturopaths focus on four aspects of a person's health: the physical, biochemical, electromagnetic and mental/emotional components. "I spend about an hour with a patient on their initial visit. We don't rely on a lot of high- tech stuff, we rely more on asking questions to find out what the problem is. We look at treating the cause, not just the symptom."
Currently, there are only five schools of Naturopathic Medicine in North America. And while their numbers may be small, the demand for naturopathic physcians is growing. "The field's wide open right now," says Hoffman, who works at the Wild Rose Wholistic Clinic in Calgary. "I had offers all over the U.S. and several in Canada. You wouldn't believe how many naturopaths are looking for help because they are just swamped."
So why is there such a demand? "I guess we're getting good results," Hoffman says with a laugh. "And people are looking for a change. They're not looking at the 'white pill' anymore. They want to be more responsible for their health and we try to give that to our patients."

[microbiologist]

.."I guess because homeopathics is something that MD's don't know about."

And they don't care either.Homeopathy as well as naturopathy are unproven methods, Most studies are inconclusive. Do I want , as a patient to be treated by inconclusive "science"? Some people don't mind and that is their choice. I won't categorize them as quacks, but not as primary care physicians either.





You ask the Companies that produce the homeopathics and they will show you how conclusive they are and they are proven as well.MD's do care because they work with the companies to produce the natural medicines.As I said there are MD's that care and others don't because they think what they do is the right thing but its not.They sit around waiting for people to get sick so they can feed them nonsense drugs to surpress symptoms that do more harm (quick fix but yet their bodies are still contaminated) and do surgery which doesn't do anything.Yet naturopaths take care of the root cause,prevent any sickness or disease by keeping the patient healthy and changing lifestyle as well.If every person was healthy then there will be no use for MD's.Again the money is in the treatment not the cure.Its a scam from governments.People are getting health conscious and wise around the world.

[microbiologist]

What is a Naturopath?
Naturopathic doctors are trained specialists in a separate and distinct healing art, which uses non-invasive natural medicine. They are not orthodox medical doctors (M.D.s). Naturopathic doctors (N.D.s) have participated in a specialized course of study and received degrees in naturopathy. Naturopathic doctors are conventionally trained in subjects such as anatomy, physiology, counseling, dietary evaluations, nutrition, herbology, acupressure, homeopathy, iridology, sclerology, hydrotherapy, detoxification, and oxygen therapy. Naturopathic doctors tailor the healing modality to the needs of the individual with methods that are effective for both chronic and acute problems. Naturopathic doctors cooperate with all branches of medical science, referring individuals to other practitioners appropriate. In practice, naturopathic doctors perform lifestyle analysis, laboratory testing, nutritional and dietary assessments, metabolic analysis, muscle or autonomic response testing, and other evaluative procedures. Naturopathy is based upon a belief in the body's innate God-given natural ability to heal itself when given an appropriate internal and external healing environment. Naturopaths are not involved in the practice of medicine and do not use drugs or pharmaceuticals, nor do they perform surgery. They have traditionally been referred to as "drugless doctors."
The Naturopathic Philosophy is based on the following principles:

Do no harm
Recognize the healing power of nature
Identify the cause
Involve the total person
Teach rather than treat
Identify the source
Prevent disease
What is Iridology?
Iridology is an art and a science. It is the study of the markings and colors in the irises of the eyes. The iris reveals ongoing tissue/organ stress levels, body constitution, predispositions to weakness, and levels of health.
What is Sclerology?
Sclerology is an art and a science. It is the study of the red lines in the whites of the eyes as they reflect stress patterns in the body’s tissues. The sclera reveals ongoing tissue/organ stress levels, predispositions to weakness, and origins of stresses.
What is Autonomic Response Testing?
Autonomic Response Testing (ART) is a testing method developed by Dietrich Klinghardt, MD, Ph.D. and Louisa Williams, MS, DC, ND. It enables a practitioner to assess the functional state, as well as evaluate disturbances of the autonomic nervous system. This sophisticated testing system is a combination of the best and most effective techniques from all of the kinesiological schools of thought and practice (Muscle Response Testing, Contact Reflex Analysis, etc).
Professional Companies for Professional Products:
Standard Process (only available to health professionals)
http://www.standardprocess.com/ (http://www.standardprocess.com/)

MediHerb (only available to health professionals)
http://www.mediherb.com/ (http://www.mediherb.com/)

Systemic Formulas, Inc (only available to health professionals)
Systemic Formulas are carefully balanced and combined to compliment the energy patterns of targeted body systems and organs. Through a process devised by Dr. Wheelwright, herbs are chelated with other ingredients to assure that all formulas are powerful and effective.
http://www.systemicformulas.com/ (http://www.systemicformulas.com/)

Mannatech
Cell to cell communication is only facilitated through glyocnutrients. This discovery will revolutionize health care in the 21st century. More information can be found at glycoinformation.info (http://www.glycoinformation.info/) and glycoscience.org (http://www.glycoscience.org/). My personal website where products can be obtained is mannapages.com/yeary (http://www.mannapages.com/yeary).

Healing America
On course to bring healing to America, these products are formulated for deepening levels of detoxification and nutritional support. Healing America offers a broad spectrum of support. More information can be found at drbill.1healingamerica.com (http://www.drbill1.healingamerica.com/).

Douglas Laboratories (only available to health professionals)
Douglas Laboratories is one of the largest pharmaceutical grade laboratories in the nation, supplying a very comprehensive list of a variety of nutritional products.
http://www.douglaslabs.com/ (http://www.douglaslabs.com/)

While we carry Standard Process, neither Bill Yeary nor any third party associated with, related to, or linked to Bill Yeary's business or website is in any way affiliated with Standard Process inc.®. Standard Process expressly disclaims any responsibility for, and makes no representations or warranties regarding, any statement, information, materials, or content found on or included in Bill Yeary's marketing materials/website, or any third party marketing materials/websites related to, associated to, associated with or linked to Bill Yeary's business or website. This same statement applies to all supplement companies listed and used.

[microbiologist]

Two drops of blood under a specialized high powered ultra-dark field microscope, reveals anomalies in the blood, that relate to deficiencies in nutrients, dysfunctional bodily systems, toxins and dysbiosis of the human body.
Since the 1920’s scientists have been studying the hidden secrets of our blood. And now, with over 70 years of accumulated clinical research data, there are hundreds of clinics worldwide, able to analyze a drop of your blood, and then give you a complete medical run-down.
http://www.dreddyclinic.com/images/ghchealth/ask-small.jpg (http://dreddyclinic.com/forum/index.php)
So how do they do it? Well, there are 2 methods. Each provides complementary information about your body’s condition. The first procedure is known as the Oxidative Stress Test (OST), and the first task is making a pinprick on your finger. Your blood is then left to sit there between 20 seconds to 1 minute before being pressed onto a glass slide in layers (generally taking 8 layer samples in two rows of four samples each.) The slides are left uncovered until they are dry. An in the process of drying, your blood undergoes a natural process of spinning as it coagulates. The unique characteristics of your sample are then viewed and evaluated.
The second procedure is simple named Live Blood Analysis. A microscope view of one drop of blood is projected onto a video monitor, showing your "internal" nutritional environment’. With this information, the practitioner can specifically identify and target deficiencies for correction.
This method is an extremely powerful tool. Viewing an inactive white blood cell in an ultra-dark field enables the technician to pinpoint the reason for its inactivity. It could be one of many things, such as: lack of oxygen in the blood; low trace minerals; lack of exercise; too much alcohol or yeast (pathogenic candida albicans); weak kidneys, bladder or spleen.

Alcohol addiction (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/aa/alcoholism.htm)
Candida/yeast/fungi (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/oo/oralthrushandcandidaalbicans.htm)Some Facts about Live blood Analysis

http://www.dreddyclinic.com/images/Picture%20076.jpg



See the most important element of your body come alive - your blood. You can actually watch as your blood reveals nutritional deficiencies, hormonal imbalances, digestive problems, liver stress, bacteria and parasite levels. Then discover how you cart be an active participant in correcting any areas of concern. Together, we will establish a proactive nutritional plan that will put you back in control of your own health.

A growing number of practitioners in North America are rediscovering Live blood Microscopy, a popular procedure and mainstay of preventive medicine in Europe. Live blood Microscopy was first used in medicine for diagnosing infections. In part because of the pioneering efforts of Canadian scientist Gaston Naessens in the 1980s, Live blood Microscopy is gaining popularity, especially with naturopaths and holistic doctors.

Live blood analysis differs from traditional medical blood testing in which preserved blood is sent to a laboratory for an "autopsy" and analyzed for chemical composition and cell counts.

HOW IT IS DONE

we draw a drop of your blood from your fingertip and place it on a microscopic slide. Then a special lens inside the microscope projects an intimate view of your living blood onto a television screen by way of a video camera. This camera is hooked up to a device enabling us to take photographs of a patient's blood condition before and after treatment. The result is a living picture of the cellular you.

http://www.dreddyclinic.com/images/oxypowder-constipation.gif (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/products/ghchealth.htm)
WHAT LIVE BLOOD MICROSCOPY CAN REVEAL


Cell damage caused by free radicals-unstable molecules created by pollution,
tobacco smoke and other toxins
Cell size and shape abnormalities from immune disorders
F (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/fatigue.htm)atigue (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/fatigue.htm)
Dehydration
Candida/yeast/fungi (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/oo/oralthrushandcandidaalbicans.htm)
Liver or bowel toxicity
Folic acid and vitamin B-12 imbalances
Iron deficiency
Anemia
Uric acid crystal and risk of gout
Poor circulation, oxygenation level and abnormal blood clotting
Bacteria
Parasite infestation
Allergy
Anemia (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/aa/anemia.htm)
Anemia, aplastic (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/aa/anemiaaplastic.htm)
Anemia, general (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/aa/anemia.htm)
Anemia, iron deficiency (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/aa/anemiairondeficiency.htm)
Anemia, sickle cell (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/aa/anemiasicklecell.htm)
Anemia, vitamin deficiency (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/vv/vitamindeficiencyanemia.htm)HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE
approximately 35-40 minutes.
The red cells are uniform in size and shape and appear as round circles on a gray background. The center of the cells are lightened somewhat and slightly off-white in color. They reside freely in their own space, not overlapping or slicking together, but gently bouncing off each other.

The white cells are about as large as two red cells and have a rather grainy appearance with 3 to 4 dark, irregularly shaped lobes inside the cell. Rather than being round, they display many different shapes and are active and moving. In normal blood there are about 700 red cells to every white cell. The blood serum surrounding the cells is clear without parasites, bacteria, clots, or other undesired floating masses.

Parasites (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/integrated_med/parasites.htm)Layered Dried Blood Analysis
Ppp's are polymerized protein puddles. They may appear as white dots, lakes, or rivers, and are the expression of free radical activity and clogged, toxic lymphatics. 2 micron sizes are related to hypersensitivities, allergic reactions. 30 microns are related to both physical and emotional stress, physical strain. The deeper the layer, the more chronic in all conditions. 40+ microns are related to degenerative conditions. The larger the ppp's and the greater numbers, the more serious the condition.
Layers 1 and 2 (the largest layers) give more accuracy or are more indicative of the condition on the outside of the body; skin, lymph, eyes, ears, nose, throat, mouth, and also brain, hips and feet.
Layers 3, 4, and 5 give more accuracy regarding lung, breast and hormone conditions.
Layers 6, 7, and 8 are more accurate for sex organs, kidneys, live spleen, gall bladder, pancreas, stomach, stress, allergic sensitivities.

The first or larger layers are more indicative of shallow, acute, or more temporary conditions. The deeper or smaller layers are more indicative of deeper seated, chronic, long term conditions.
Round and clear ppp's are indicative of inflammation, soreness, swelling. Localized ppp's in the sample (not throughout) indicate localization of the problem in the body, rather than systemic conditions. See the rings chart for location in the body.
Total disbursement of large ppp's in all rings is an expression of toxicity and advanced systemic degenerative conditions.
RATE THE FOLLOWING ON A SCALE OF 1 TO 5 INDICATING DEGREE OF SEVERITY

1. Normal, healthy blood. Light double coast indicates minor vitamin C and sulphur based amino acids deficiency ( l-cysteine, l-glutathione, methionine). Proanthocyanadins (grape seed extract or pine bark), quercetin, zinc, selenium, vitamin E, beta-carotene, superoxide dismutase, catalase (enzyme), all free radical scavengers, especially in combination. Trace minerals for activation of enzymes.

2. Same as #1, but more pronounced.

3. Adrenal stress profile. Negative emotion predominance, preoccupation. Inability to manage stress. Lifestyle changes are primary recommendation. Stress management through intentionally including relaxation and release cycles into lifestyle. Conflict resolution necessary? May need counseling.
Back, neck and shoulders tight, pain in lower back, curvature of spine. Holding stress. Relax compulsive stress-based sexual orientation. Harmonize sexual energy by raw food diet and/or short fast. Biofeedback, light and sound brain entrainment. Polarity plates, meditation, light exercise, time alone for contemplation, massage therapy, acupuncture (shiatsu), structural realignment/Bowen therapy, laying on of hands. B5 250 mgs., B6 250 mgs., Vitamin C 2,000 mgs. in combination at bedtime to rebuild adrenals. Cut out stimulants, coffee, ginseng, stimulating amino acids, nootropics. Live food only for stimulation. Spirulina and juice (fresh pressed only). May be depressed, aimless, listless from bum out.

4. Bowel toxicitv indicated by dark center. Pattern of 2 micron to 30 micron clusters of ppp's. 2 micron size indicative of allergic reactions, allergies. This can be either exogenous (environmental source, such as inhalants) or endogenous (digestive/metabolic disorder, deficiency) in origin. Alter diet to Include more live foods. Herbal Fiber Blend, colonic irrigations, balance the terrain, correct microbal imbalance, restore floras both systemically and to the digestive tract. Eliminate fungus.

5. White radial spokes. Mineral deficient. Poor assimilation of minerals. Trace minerals. MaqiCaL soaked Almonds, vitamin D, wild yam. Possibly leaching calcium from bones as body's attempt to balance pH. Raised, lighter, elongated area in circulatory ring. Toxins in lymphatic and circulatory system. Hormonal, thyroid, parathyroid imbalance. Menses? Low minerals, pH imbalance, acid. Tendency to stomach ulcers, heartburn. Cal/mag/phos/boron. Pancreas, blood sugar.

Calcium (Calcium citrate) (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/vitamins/Calcium.htm)
Calcium Gluconate) (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/vitamins/Calcium.htm)

pH (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/integrated_med/pH.htm)
High blood pressure (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/hh/highbloodpressure.htm)6. Raised lighter circle. Heart and circulatory problems, possible arrhythmia, valves not seating, high triglycerides, plaque, blockages, Hypertension (high blood pressure), varicosities, aneurysms. Magnesium supplementation for arrhythmia. Epsom salt baths if blood pressure is not elevated. See manual, dietary recommendations in the CRYSTALS section. Poor interconnection of fibrin net. Digestive, enzymatic, trace mineral insufficiency.

7. Dark fibrin ring around outside, point in coast. Amalgams, crowns, bridges, metals, bands, retainers, smog, table salt, pipe solder, machine filings, 2nd hand smoke, copper plumbing. These metals may be in fatty tissue, brain, nervous system. Direct link to Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, MS, Chelation therapy, chlorella, selenium, proanthocyanadins, detox, fast, remove fillings (use an expert, only), metals from mouth.

Muscles sore, flabbier, losing strength, muddled/slower/forgetful thinking, fatigue, gums sore/ bleeding, tooth abscesses, root canals, colloid thecits, chondro thecits, bacterial forms. Use colloidal silver for mouthwash. Remove metals, then 1 1/2% peroxide daily as mouthwash. DMSO/silver combo on gums. Hyperoxygenation therapies. Black bulges - parasites, B-12/folic deficiency, vitamin A/vit.E deficiency or absorption problem, can't gain or losing weight.

fatigue (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/fatigue.htm)
Parasites (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/integrated_med/parasites.htm)8. Same as #7. Also double coast, same as #1, and need exercise for circulation and sweating, saunas, hot tubs to open up skin. Skin ring.

9. Sialic acid beads in ppp's. Aspergillus related conditions. Connective tissue disorders, arthritis, rheumatism, lung, fungus, tuberculin disorders, uric acid crystals, undigested animal protein accumulations, gout, bacteria, sore joints, toxins in connective tissues, fibromyalgia, lupus. Degenerative disease indications, free radical activity, toxicity. Metastasic cancer. Suggest allopathic testing referral. The larger the lakes, the more advanced. C shaped lakes, include #7 reading.

10. Third ring in, lung and breast problems. Congestion lymph, cough, asthma, emphysema, smoker or second hand smoke.
Breasts tender, sore, hormonal imbalance, fibroids, cysts, lumps, cysts, implants, possible implant leakage. If in first layer, hormone imbalance from menses.

Asthma (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/aa/asthma.htm)
constipation (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/findinformation/cc/constipation.htm)11. Off centered, 1 or 2 large ppp's. Weak kidney, spleen, bladder combination. Gall bladder or stones. Liver detoxing, stressed, plugged, inflamed. Stomach ulcers, gas, bloating, rumbling. Constipation, toxic colon, colitis, diverticulosis, diverticulitis, impaction, possible tumors. A number of small dots off center is impacted colon pockets, constipation, impaction. Colon hydro-therapy and Herbal Fiber Blend.

When on center, for men this indicates prostate enlargement and possibly difficult urination. For women this can indicate uterine/ovarian conditions, possible hysterectomy, fibroids, bleeding, vaginal conditions, and hormonal imbalances.

Note the parasite/fungus/toxin inclusions in fibrin web. All of these indications go together.
12. Curved, elongated fibrin strands. Back, neck, shoulders pinched, numb, tense, stiff, spinal curvature/Whiplash. Check the rest of the sample to assure that there are not artifacts on the slide, such as fibers and lint, etc. This is an unexplained, yet consistent anomaly.
Live Blood under the Microscope
It's true that an individuals life and health energies show in the drops of their blood. Using high powered video microscopes to evaluate the shapes and other properties of individual blood cells can be very revealing. Often things are noticed that are never seen using traditional methods of blood screening.

In itself, live blood screening with microscopy is not a diagnostic procedure. However, it can often point you in a direction to take for further diagnostic testing. For our purposes, we simply want to view the "terrain" of the blood to catch a glimpse of the overall "toxic load" and consequent state of health of our client.

Of the information that follows in this section, some is found in medical physiology textbooks and is taught in hematology and microbiology classes. Some of the information (particularly that which deals with nutritional aspects of blood morphology) is usually taught to health professionals through continuing education and alternative type programs. As traditional medical and dietetic training is generally inadequate and often based on incorrect assumptions about health, these alternative programs serve as a much needed venue to disseminate this information. It can be controversial. I say controversial because the definitions, findings, causes, and correlation's are often the subject of debate. On one hand there is traditional hematology, on the other is standard hematology overlaid on a nutritional framework with different ways of thinking about health and disease. There are varying perspectives of what the observed morphology actually means. Some are correct, some are not.

Further complicating matters, many microbiologists seem to work in a vacuum. Three microbiologists may see or have discovered the same thing, but they each call it by a different name. Going further, some biologists have entertained entirely different philosophies.

When the serious student of health begins to dig into all aspects of healing, he inevitably unfolds the theories of disease and concepts of microbial pleomorphism as espoused by individuals like Guenther Enderlein. Enderlein was a German microbiologist who did the most extensive and exacting scientific work in this area. I refer to it as the German biological perspective. For purposes of truly understanding blood morphology, this area of study is an absolute necessity. Unfortunately, American hematology and medical students do not get this training. Consequently, the American health system is absolutely ignorant of what is likely the biological reality behind a majority of disease processes.
This following material takes you into all of these areas. The intent is to give you a solid foundation in which you can further pursue each area as you desire. The majority of what follows has explanations from standard hematology, expanded views from the medical perspective, and associated thinking and suggested tests that may be run by a traditional medical practitioner (and some tests used by alternative practitioners) if he/she were to have a specific microscopic finding. For the most part, this aspect reflects an allopathic, symptomatic, name the disease mentality which for many cases, is unnecessary for getting a sick patient well. During the workshop, you will have the benefit of instructor clarifications and expanded insights. Additionally, I've included a brief overview of the "alternative" biological perspective for each microscopic finding. After researching blood morphology for months on end, viewing live blood for untold hours, watching biological relationships unfold, meeting and discussing these issues with other alternative practitioners, it is of my personal opinion that the alternative view is the correct perspective in which to view blood morphology and the biological processes which happen within.

TRY MEGAHYDRATE TO EXPERIENCE JUST HOW GOOD TRUE HYDRATION FEELS MEGAHYDRATE IS CLINICALLY TESTED AND PHYSICIAN APPROVED. (http://www.dreddyclinic.com/products/ghchealth/megahydrate-antioxidant-supplement.htm)

Blood references: For the traditional hematological perspective, "Dailey's Notes on Blood", by John F. Dailey; For the alternative biological perspective and insight in the work of Guenther Enderlein, "Blood Examination in Darkfield", by Marie Bleker, "Introduction into Darkfield Diagnostics", by Cornelia Schwedtle and Franz Arnoul, and course notes from various workshops. For the more traditional medical view, "The Internist" June 1996, Position Statement of the Council on Diagnosis and Internal Disorders of the American Chiropractic Association.

[Aviv Imanuel]

Propaganda, or marketing, whatever you want to call it.




You ask the Companies that produce the homeopathics and they will show you how conclusive they are and they are proven as well.MD's do care because they work with the companies to produce the natural medicines.As I said there are MD's that care and others don't because they think what they do is the right thing but its not.They sit around waiting for people to get sick so they can feed them nonsense drugs to surpress symptoms that do more harm (quick fix but yet their bodies are still contaminated) and do surgery which doesn't do anything.Yet naturopaths take care of the root cause,prevent any sickness or disease by keeping the patient healthy and changing lifestyle as well.If every person was healthy then there will be no use for MD's.Again the money is in the treatment not the cure.Its a scam from governments.People are getting health conscious and wise around the world.

[microbiologist]

I want to ask a question here,MD's say that homeopathics can be dangerous or has non-conclusive studies or even unproven methods.Can you prove to me which homepathic medicine can do harm when used properly or the correct dosage.I mean you all say that there are claims made but there aren't any wrong ones.Look how many so called proven scientific drugs did harm and never worked for so many years and you still have the mind to call homeopathic medicine harmful or even quack yet it works and the same scientists,MD's and ND's are the ones that formulate them? Funny how they study the same thing and still manages to get into something that actually works and yes the various natural substances that worked for people.Explain the huge success rate of these companies and patients and customers still manages to continue using and upkeeping themselves with these so called "Unproven methods".Why did it work for people then?Why are there so many people in the world that prefer to use homeopathics,supplements or herbs than drugs or even prescription drugs?Or are you all making false claims to people and just because you are backed by the money laundering government the pharmaceutical companies stay opened.Hmm.I think some MD's have a ego and doesn't want to admit it but its true.I have two family members ,one who is a neurosurgeon and the other the head of the pediatric board in the general hospital and they totally agree with homeopathy.Infact they only use supplements at home and to their family.They look younger and said that they are more healthier of their peers at the hospital and actually a few doctors their swear on herbs, the survey in the hospital showed that 73% on the wards were using homeopathics during their stay.Families would bring it for them and the doctors noted a vast improvement in their health.They decided to do research on these natural medicines because it seemed interesting.Why are some MD's willing to recommend them to patients and work with naturopaths and others just don't care anything about research or any other kind of practitioner?Is it because they can't advertise or have stipulations on the charges? Is it the comparison of money made in marketing products as well as service especially the success rate that they have had over years compared to some MD's?If you are so concerned with people's health and what they take well you should choose supplements because they have not proven to be harmful.Nothing is wrong with people making money and the reason why they make so much is because people are satisfied and they keep going back buying from health food stores all over the world,pharmacies all over etc.You should have an open mind about it.

[The Trifling Jester]

This thread reads like a bad infomercial. The posts hawking naturopathic piffle remind me of those "get rich quick" schemes you see on TV at 3 am.

Yawn,
The Trifling Jester

[teratos]

OK, you're right. I give up. Nothing but sea salt and very dilute solutions of animal glands for my patients. I guess I also gotta spring for one of those microscopes where I can watch blood in real time doing whatever it is blood does. Screw the double-blind, randomized and controlled studies....those are crap. What really matters is what people like you tell me works. :rolleyes:

[microbiologist]

Jeez and ages

[microbiologist]

WHO'S FOOLING MOTHER NATURE?

The following article was written by NOW’s “Truth Advocate”, Neil Levin, CCCN, DANLA, in response to the article, “NATURAL NOT ALWAYS BEST, SAY SCIENTISTS” (see link to this article). Neil’s response is based on the Nutraingredients article prior to publication of the full report:

Original article:
http://www.nutraingredients.com/news/ng.asp?n=65287&m=1NIE123&c=bbimgilqonrtbqy (http://www.nutraingredients.com/news/ng.asp?n=65287&m=1NIE123&c=bbimgilqonrtbqy)


The authors of this report seem to be unfamiliar (or unsympathetic) with the science of multiple chemical sensitivity, or the concept that at some point the total toxic load upon the body, mainly the liver, may overwhelm the body's ability to detoxify and safely excrete excess chemicals, whether natural or synthetic. The use of certain nutrients to be utilized in these processes - notably antioxidants, minerals and amino acids - are “limiting factors” affecting detoxification capacity and chemical clearance rates. 1-30

Many synthetic chemicals are inherently toxic “by nature”, so to speak, so that their safety profiles are typically worse than natural products. Controlled substances are regulated so tightly precisely because of their potential for causing bodily harm. While natural products may occasionally have this potential, as a general rule, experience shows that they are less toxic than drugs, which are typically made from synthesized chemicals. 31 This is borne out by statistics from the American Association of Poison Control Centers. 32

It is not accurate to state that “Although synthetic products may contain substances known to be harmful in large quantities, the amounts contained in consumer products are so negligible that they would not even have an effect when all products are considered.”

Who is even investigating these multiple chemical interactions? Adding minute doses of various chemicals together may not reveal the true body burden to an individual. If chemicals are difficult to detoxify and a person has a diminished capacity to do so due to inflammation, illness or nutrient deficiencies, the cumulative toxic effects could be dramatic.

In the case of St. John’s wort, the authors are mistaken in saying that, “since the active component responsible for this has not been identified, there is no advice on correct or safe dosage”. Quite the contrary, there is a therapeutic monograph on the use of this herb: http://www.herbalgram.org/default.asp?c=he094 (http://www.herbalgram.org/default.asp?c=he094), as well as a good body of science. 33-36

The fact that St. John’s wort may interact with some drugs is not an indictment. A commonly used warning statement on the label of St. John’s wort products cautions about these possible interactions. 37 Common foods and spices like ginger, garlic and grapefruit also can interact with drugs, yet where are the researchers demanding warning labels on these products?

The identification of an active component has never been the sole determinant of the use of herbs, even at the point when herbs were the predominant therapeutics listed in medical reference works prior to World War II. The search for an active component is a mindset that’s more pharmaceutical than nutraceutical, betraying an institutional bias against unpatentable natural substances. Valuing the native genius of nature means realizing that a whole herb may be gentler and more balanced than is a constituent molecule with a specific drug-like action. Think aspirin versus white willow bark: the herb does not commonly cause stomach bleeding, as the isolated drug –even as the acetylated form - usually does.

For an article coming from a non-profit group that exists to promote evidence-based science, I find the arguments to be unconvincing and partially unrepresentative of the whole body of facts. The presence of nutrients and other compounds, including trace elements, in food and food supplements is crucial to the process of detoxification. The roles of natural nutrients and the total toxic load are essential to our understanding of the body’s detoxification capacity.

Neil E. Levin
Certified Clinical Nutritionist
Diplomate in Advanced Nutritional Laboratory Assessment
Bloomingdale, IL USA

References

1 Bland JS, Bralley JA, Rigden S. Management of chronic fatigue symptoms by tailored nutritional intervention using a program designed to support hepatic detoxification. Gig Harbor, WA: HealthComm Inc., 1997.

2 Buist RA. Chronic fatigue syndrome and chemical overload. Int Clin Nutr Rev 1988;8(4):173-5.

3 Bland JS. Oxidants and antioxidants in clinical medicine: past, present and future potential. J Nutr Environ Med 1995;5:255-80.

4 Timbrell JA. Principles of biochemical toxicology. 2nd ed. London: Taylor & *******, 1991.

5 Anders MW, Dekant W, editors. Conjugation-dependent carcinogenicity and toxicity of foreign compounds. New York: Academic Press, 1994.

6 Mulder GJ, editor. Conjugation reactions in drug metabolism: an integrated approach. London: Taylor & Frances, 1990.

7 Katzung BG. Basic and clinical pharmacology. Los Altos, CA: Lange Medical Publ., 1982.

8 Ray WJ. Chemical Sensitivity: Clinical Manifestations of Pollutant Overload. Boca Raton, FL: CRC, 1995.

9 Podolsky DK, et al. In: Stone RM, editor. Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine: pretest self-assessment and review. 13th ed. New York:. McGraw-Hill Inc., 1994: 1451.

10 Smith TK. Dietary modulation of the glutathione detoxification and the potential for altered xenobiotic metabolism. In: Friedman M, editor. Nutritional and toxicological consequences of food processing. New York: Plenum Press, 1991:165-69.

11 Goldstein JA, Faletto MB. Advances in mechanisms of activation and deactivation of environmental chemicals. Environ Health Perspect 1993;100:169-76.

12 McFadden SA. Phenotypic variation in zenobiotic metabolism and adverse envirnomental response: focus on sulfur-dependent detoxification pathways. Toxicology 1996;111:43-65.

13 Miners JO, Mackenzie PI. Drug glucuronidation in humans. Pharmacol Ther 1991;51:347-369.

14 Brockmöller J, Roots I. The assessment of metabolic function. Clin Pharmacokinet 1994;27(3):216-48.

15 Jost G, Wahlländer A, von Mandach U, Preisig R. Overnight salivary caffeine clearance: a liver function test suitable for routine use. Hepatology 1987;7(2):338-44.

16 Renner E, Wietholtz H, Huguenin P, Arnaud MJ, Preisig R. Caffeine: a model compound for measuring liver function. Hepatology 1984;4(1):38-46.

17 Scavone JM, Greenblatt DJ, LeDuc BW, Blyden GT, Luna BG, Harmatz JS. Differential effect of cigarette smoking on antipyrine oxidation versus acetaminophen conjugation. Pharmacology 1990;40:77-84.

18 Sugita M, Aikawa H, Suzuki K, Yamasaki T, Minowa H, Etoh R, et al. Urinary hippuric acid excretion in everday life. Tokai J Exp Clin Med 1988;13(4):185-90.

19 Patel DK, Ogunbona A, Notarianni, ******* PN. Depletion of plasma glycine and effect of glycine by mouth on salicylate metabolism during aspirin overdose. Human Exp Toxicol 1990;9:389-95.

20 Levy G. Sulfate conjugation in drug metabolism: role of inorganic sulfate. Federation Proc 1986;45:2235-40.

21 Steventon GB, Heafield MTE, Waring RH, Williams AS, Sturman S, Green M. Metabolism of low-dose paracetamol in patients with chronic neurological disease. Xenobiotica 1990;20(1):117-22.

22 Steventon GB, Heafield MT, Waring RH, Williams AC. Xenobiotic metabolism in Parkinson's disease. Neurology 1989;39:883-7.

23 Bradley H, Waring RH, Emery P, Arthur V. Metabolism of low-dose paracetamol in patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Xenobiotica 1991;21(5):689-93.

24 Krijgsheld KR, Mulder GJ. The availability of inorganic sulfate as a rate-limiting factor in the sulfation of xenobiotics in mammals in vivo. In: Mulder GJ, et al., eds., Sulfate metabolism and sulfate conjugation. London: Taylor and *******, 1982: 59.

25 Heafield MT, Fearn S, Steveton GB, Waring RH, Williams AC, Sturman SG. Plasma cysteine and sulphate levels in patients with motor neurone, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease. Neuroscience Letters 1990;110:216-20.

26 Oguro T, Gregus Z, Madhu C, Liu L, Klaassen CD. Molybdate depletes hepatic 3-phosphoadenosine 5-phosphosulfate and impairs the sulfation of acetaminophen in rats. J Pharmacol Experimental Therapeut 1994; 270(3):1145-51.

27 Corcoran GB, Racz WJ, Smith CV, ******** JR. Effects of N-acetylcysteine on acetaminophen covalent binding and hepatic necrosis in mice. J Pharmacol Experimental Therapeut 1985; 232(3):864-72.

28 Smilkstein MJ, Douglas DR, Daya MR. Acetaminophen poisoning and liver function [letter]. N Engl J Med 1994;(Nov 10):1310-11.

29 Patel M, Tang BK, Kalow W. Variability of acetaminophen metabolism in caucasians and orientals. Pharmacogenetics 1992;2:38-45.

30 Abernethy DR, Greenblatt DJ, Divoll M, Shader RI. Enhanced glucuronide conjugation of drugs in obesity: studies of lorazepam, oxazepam, and acetaminophen. J Lab Clin Med 1983;101:873-80.

31 (Average 1982-1998): According to Canadian researchers, approximately 32,000 hospitalized patients (and possibly as many as 106,000) in the USA die each year because of adverse reactions to their prescribed medications. Source: Lazarou, J, Pomeranz, BH, Corey, PN, "Incidence of adverse drug reactions in hospitalized patients: a meta-analysis of prospective studies," Journal of the American Medical Association (Chicago, IL: American Medical Association, 1998), 1998;279:1200-1205, also letters column, "Adverse Drug Reactions in Hospitalized Patients," JAMA (Chicago, IL: AMA, 1998), Nov. 25, 1998, Vol. 280, No. 20, from the web at http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v280n20/ffull/jlt1125-1.html (http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v280n20/ffull/jlt1125-1.html) , last accessed Feb. 12, 2001.

32 WATSON ET AL 2003 AAPCC ANNUAL REPORT The American Journal of Emergency Medicine (22(5):335-404, 2004)

33 Blumenthal M, Busse WR, Goldberg A, Gruenwald J, Hall T, Riggins CW, Rister RS, editors. Klein S, Rister RS (trans.). The Complete German Commission E Monographs—Therapeutic Guide to Herbal Medicines. Austin (TX): American Botanical Council; Boston (MA): Integrative Medicine Communication; 1998.

34 Wheatley D. LI 160, an extract of St. John’s wort, versus amitriptyline, in mildly to moderately depressed outpatients-a controlled 6 week clinical trial. Pharmacopsychiatry 1997; 30(suppl.):77–80.

35 Woelk H. Comparison of St. John’s wort and imipramine for treating depression: randomized controlled trial. BMJ 2000 Sep;321:536–9.

36 A total of 11 studies have compared SJW preparations with conventional antidepressants (7 tricyclic; 4 SSRI) concluding that SJW is effective for mild to moderate depression with a low side effect profile (Kasper, 2001). (Herbalgram) Kasper S. Hypericum perforatum– Review of clinical studies. Pharmacopsychiatry 2001;34 Suppl. 1:S51–5.

37 Warnings: Do not exceed 3 capsules daily, unless directed by a health care professional. Larger amounts may contribute to photosensitizing reactions (skin reddening) in the presence of strong sunlight or tanning beds. If you are presently taking MAO-inhibitors or other anti-depressant medication, consult your health care professional prior to use.

[microbiologist]

(Average 1982-1998): According to Canadian researchers, approximately 32,000 hospitalized patients (and possibly as many as 106,000) in the USA die each year because of adverse reactions to their prescribed medications. Source: Lazarou, J, Pomeranz, BH, Corey, PN, "Incidence of adverse drug reactions in hospitalized patients: a meta-analysis of prospective studies," Journal of the American Medical Association (Chicago, IL: American Medical Association, 1998), 1998;279:1200-1205, also letters column, "Adverse Drug Reactions in Hospitalized Patients," JAMA (Chicago, IL: AMA, 1998), Nov. 25, 1998, Vol. 280, No. 20, from the web at http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v280n20/ffull/jlt1125-1.html (http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v280n20/ffull/jlt1125-1.html) , last accessed Feb. 12, 2001.

[The Trifling Jester]

Let's discuss Colon Hydrotherapy (TM) - purportedly an acceptable treatment for "asthma, arthritis, sinus problems, and chronic fatigue," among other ailments. This is according to the esteemed Dr. G, N.D., a naturopathic physician and medical supervisor at the Bastyr University natural health clinic in Seattle, Wash as per CNN http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/alternative/02/08/colonics.wmd/

My understanding of Colon Hydrotherapy (TM) is that you basically pump water up your rectum, allow it to stagnate in your colon, and then drain the chocolaty mixture out of another tube. MMMmmmmm, sounds deliciously refreshing, but how does it work?

Despite 8 years of study, passing rigorous national board exams, and diligently reading Harrison's on a weekly basis for the past 2 years; I cannot for the life of me figure out the method of action! Are we, as MDs, giving out bogus treatments for asthma such as beta agonists and steroids when all we should be doing is asking our patients to squirt water up their butts?

Please, oh erudite naturopath, enlighten the misguided. What is the method of action for Colon Hydrotherapy (TM) in its treatment for asthma?

I anxiously await your response,
The Trifling Jester

[teratos]

Dude, your trifiling.....

Live blood microscopy is where it is at. It can tell you things chemical analysis of blood can't tell you, like....uh, er, um....well, I guess whatever I want it to tell you. Let me set aside my Oiuja board and find my crystal ball...darn, I can't find it....alright, lemme see your palm....we'll figure out how long you are going to live.....

[The Trifling Jester]

Get with the program! Sorry dude, live blood microscopy is sooooo last lunar cycle. Colon hydrotherapy is off the hook! Just listen to my main man Dr. J:

"Every tissue in the body is fed by the bloodstream, which is supplied by the bowel. When the bowel is dirty, the blood is dirty and so are the organs and tissues. It is the bowel that must be cared for first."
-- Dr. J, Nutritionist, Lecturer and Author
http://www.dharmaspirit.ca/hydro.htm

Oh, and it only takes twelve sessions, at just $60 per session! http://home.sprintmail.com/~nichollsdesign/ccd/colonic/qanda.htm

Peep that hombres! I'm gonna get my bowels so fresh and so clean! I gotta cleanse my Sigmoid, so my bloods and organs don't get all dirtied up and stuff. I want my colon SPIC N' SPAM. I want some of that hydrotherapy, some of that good stuff, I wanna shine my colon so it could BLING!

Please please Dr. Naturopath, PIMP MY COLON!
-The Trifling Jester

[microbiologist]

You know I have never heard more nonsense in my life.You all don't have a clue about these things.Being all sarcastic,you don't even know the first thing about colon hydrotherapy and what it does and how it works.I am not a naturopath.Infact you should talk to a naturopathic physician about that or even a colon hydrotherapist.At least these things work and doesn't kill people.It is successful because it works.They obviously have more knowledge than you all.Stick to drugs and surgery.Apparently thats all you know.Just sit and wait for someone to get sick and then they will come into your office.Hmm..sounds kind of sh***y.First of all what does a crystal ball have to do with anything here.No wonder naturopaths make more money that you guys.At least they don't scam people out of money like MD's and the government.They have a huge success rate especially the places that I have been.You all think that other careers are nonsense but thats only to some MD's.This is growing rapidly and people are turning to it.Go ahead laugh and talk crap without any proof of knowing anything.

[microbiologist]

Let's discuss Colon Hydrotherapy (TM) - purportedly an acceptable treatment for "asthma, arthritis, sinus problems, and chronic fatigue," among other ailments. This is according to the esteemed Dr. G, N.D., a naturopathic physician and medical supervisor at the Bastyr University natural health clinic in Seattle, Wash as per CNN http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/alternative/02/08/colonics.wmd/

My understanding of Colon Hydrotherapy (TM) is that you basically pump water up your rectum, allow it to stagnate in your colon, and then drain the chocolaty mixture out of another tube. MMMmmmmm, sounds deliciously refreshing, but how does it work?

Despite 8 years of study, passing rigorous national board exams, and diligently reading Harrison's on a weekly basis for the past 2 years; I cannot for the life of me figure out the method of action! Are we, as MDs, giving out bogus treatments for asthma such as beta agonists and steroids when all we should be doing is asking our patients to squirt water up their butts?

Please, oh erudite naturopath, enlighten the misguided. What is the method of action for Colon Hydrotherapy (TM) in its treatment for asthma?

I anxiously await your response,
The Trifling Jester

the same way you studied,naturopaths studied but its an alternative to what you do.What you do is NOT the only way for health.INfact I don't even know why you all call it Health Care when you all are only pushing sh** in people's body and expect a reaction to happen.You tell me how beta agonists and deadly steroids work for the various treatments and why there are people that prefer colon hydrotherapy over these things.As I said people wold prefer a different and safer approach especially since it has been working very well for people and infact MD's saw a drastic change in their health and patients feel better as well.It especially gets rid of the waste that was built up on the arterial walls of the colon thats hard to remove.Then you put back healthy intestinal flora and probiotics but I guess you already knew that.Ohh well you know everything.You all are experts on homeopathy as well and everything thats natural and drugs.You should leave the natural science to people that are qualified in it.Stick to your own profession please.You don't have a clue.

[microbiologist]

I have to ask a naturopath from his/her busy schedule to see this site its so funny how MD's have so much time to waste talking crap.LOL

[microbiologist]

It doesn't do anything to the profession though.It will still grow and become more successful.Ask the millions around the world that were satisfied.Ohh I guess you need statistics.So you should try talking about something different.How about steroids? Or even Botox.Hmm sounds interesting.I just hope you know what you are doing

[microbiologist]

up to now you all have not proved that natural products are bad for you.I am not a naturopath but I honestly don't think a naturopathic doctor would definately not waste time here talking or even trying to convince a few MD's who have no business messing with natural sciences especially since they are not qualified in it.I can safely say that there are alot of MD's that are interested,work with the natural laboratories and companies to help further development of these products and some of my MD friends don't see any sense in this thread.THat is really a shame though.INfact they were wondering why I even bother wasting my time talking with people that make no sense and have convinced me otherwise.What you all say doesn't change anything in the world so you should just stop talking about another career and stick to your own.Nobody cares what certain MD's have to say about herbs,supplements,homeopathics,colon hydrotherapy,blood analysis,irridology,reflexology,ozone therapy etc.you all are uneducated about it and have never done any it it,no studies or research have been done either for your own knowledge.You just hear something and because its contrary to what you know iots some kind of voodoo thing or quack.Listen the world does not evolve around medical drugs ok? Some people use drugs others natural things even toothpaste,shampoos,dyes,organic foods ,teas,rice etc.there are so many.If they are not satisfied with one well they will try the other.The clients who have done it around the world have never complained and have worked for them so just buzz off .
The sad thing is,even if I decided to post all sorts of studies,statistics,results,journals,research etc.You all will make some stupid comment.It has not been double blinded studied! Or you have not given any real proof and its not recognised! Ohh give me a break.At least its safer than drugs.LOL

Get a life and stop wasting time behind others.

[microbiologist]

as far as the triffling jester is concerned.He/She can read things on colon hydrotherapy and still come up with an uneducated comment has to be the biggest jack*** here.Ohh you are so funny Pimp my Colon.At least the doctor is taking out the waste and not putting in the Sh** that you all shove in patients.Please doctor treat me for the rest of my life and although I won't get better still do it because you are a professional.Professional my rectum

[microbiologist]

Every tissue in the body is fed by the bloodstream, which is supplied by the bowel. When the bowel is dirty, the blood is dirty and so are the organs and tissues. It is the bowel that must be cared for first."

tell me what is wrong with this statement.Mr.Sarcastic Jester.

Peep that hombres! I'm gonna get my bowels so fresh and so clean! I gotta cleanse my Sigmoid, so my bloods and organs don't get all dirtied up and stuff. I want my colon SPIC N' SPAM. I want some of that hydrotherapy, some of that good stuff, I wanna shine my colon so it could BLING!

Ohh I guess you got Him there!! He must be offended by that!
What is wrong with cleaning your colon? Just continue eating junk for the rest of your life,take prescription drugs everytime you feel sick after a meal then die young.Don't cleanse and replace flora.INfact don't even eat right.Have a plate of steroids..hmm that will definately get the blood pumping ..ohh and since you won't be able to get an erection then take some viagra and after your kidney goes bad then push antibiotics in your body and after you get a bad intestinal tract and even ulcers ,go and get an operation,spend thousands,continue taking tablets for the rest of your life and when you can't afford to take it,then you die.Waw Bling Bling I guess you're not in style if your not at the pharmacy before 10.Get rich schemes? I think you have it mixed up my friend.

[The Trifling Jester]

I count seven replies, none of which contain the answer to my question.

What is the method of action in colon hydrotherapy's treatment for asthma?

Will you answer my question in your eighth reply to me? If you don't, I may have to consider the ever-so-minute possibility that there IS NO METHOD OF ACTION. <Gasp!> If that is the case, then I may seriously have to reconsider my offer for you to pimp my colon. It's quite a shame, really, I was quite looking forward to having my bowels glistening like the morning dew.

Disappointed,
The Trifling Jester

[AUCMD2006]

as far as the triffling jester is concerned.He/She can read things on colon hydrotherapy and still come up with an uneducated comment has to be the biggest jack*** here.Ohh you are so funny Pimp my Colon.At least the doctor is taking out the waste and not putting in the Sh** that you all shove in patients.Please doctor treat me for the rest of my life and although I won't get better still do it because you are a professional.Professional my rectum

ever heard of patient compliance? the vast majority of every heffer we put on therapy for diabetes, htn, and the majority of complications from these things which are bread and butter of almost every specialist, and the cause of every new heart wing at any hospital, would infact be cured and no longer need symptom relief if they followed very simple advice...(heres a hint...it has to do with diet and weight)

you are right, we don't cure things, never heard a doctor claim to give someone one dose of hctz and say their BP is cured, what i have heard and have done is telling the HONDA (hypertensive overweight noncompliant diabetic adult) that if they loose weight and watch what they eat they will probably no longer need:

-the diuretic/ace/ca block/arb for the blood pressure
-the insulin/rosi/met for their poisoned pancreas
-the cox inh/nsaids/narcs for the aches and pains caused by the extra 200 pounds on their joints
-the azoles/creams/lotions to keep fungus in the 200 pounds of extra flop pads in check
-the stockins/antibiotics/whirlpool baths/wound care for all the ulcers

and if you knew anything about medicine you could keep the list going and understand why patients put themselves on these medications.

so why do colonics and the health 'porfessionals' have so much anecdotal evidence their products work? because you have a different patient population. i would love to see who your holistic potions work on any 500 pound trainwreck in southside chicago and not the yoga yuppies that you normally treat. we usually get them when the tree bark didn't cure the cancer and get sued for not treating it earlier, you share none of the responsibiluity to back up your claims with real science nor any liability when your treatments don't work that is why many doctors don't like those fields...

[dt]

...

you are right, we don't cure things, never heard a doctor claim to give someone one dose of hctz and say their BP is cured, what i have heard and have done is telling the HONDA (hypertensive overweight noncompliant diabetic adult) that if they loose weight and watch what they eat they will probably no longer need:

-the diuretic/ace/ca block/arb for the blood pressure
-the insulin/rosi/met for their poisoned pancreas
-the cox inh/nsaids/narcs for the aches and pains caused by the extra 200 pounds on their joints
-the azoles/creams/lotions to keep fungus in the 200 pounds of extra flop pads in check
-the stockins/antibiotics/whirlpool baths/wound care for all the ulcers

...


And also, many of the patients Naturopathic doctors get realized the treatment protocols mentioned will never work for them and have the awareness to start looking at other alternatives.

[microbiologist]

I count seven replies, none of which contain the answer to my question.

What is the method of action in colon hydrotherapy's treatment for asthma?

Will you answer my question in your eighth reply to me? If you don't, I may have to consider the ever-so-minute possibility that there IS NO METHOD OF ACTION. <Gasp!> If that is the case, then I may seriously have to reconsider my offer for you to pimp my colon. It's quite a shame, really, I was quite looking forward to having my bowels glistening like the morning dew.

Disappointed,
The Trifling Jester

Listen I cannot answer that question because I am not a colon hydrotherapist or a naturopathic doctor or a herbalist ok?
Its true that you are looking at a different patient population.
If you want to ask questions about homeopathics ,supplements,herbs or any colon hydrotherapy,irridology,reflexology or any alternative to what you all do well I suggest that you contact the companies that produce these products or even the scientists that have tested them and even the MD's and ND's that do further analysis of these products and mind you they can answer any question you hit them with.
Vaxa International,Now Foods,Innerlight,Nature's Way,Nature's Plus,Universal Nutrition..These are the leading companies in supplements and have professional laboratories with medical professionals and scientists that you can speak with to give you advice and clinical studies.You will see for yourself ...I cannot give you the information though..You can feel free to be sarcastic with them too.

[thgunner57]

for advice from some "naturopath" when they could look it up on the web or literature from a health food store. They can buy a product. They may find some idiots willing to pay but I bet they are not doing to well. ....... Look how chiropractory dried up when insurances stop covering their bogus treatments. Now they are really physical therapists doing modalities and such. When auto insurance cuts back the chiros will really be in trouble. .......More important is the scope of practice given to PA and ANRP they are able to bill medicare / medicaid. They are a bigger threat if you are a generalist. Advice do a fellowship be highly specialized then you are respected and well paid.

[microbiologist]

you have to pay just like everyone else.You are going to see a person qualified in the field of naturopathy.Besides you are not just going for advice,you are going for an alternative treatment.Naturopaths that use blood analysis especially you pay for that plus,advice,plus they put you on programs,evaluate yourself,consultation,even recommend specific homeopathics,herbs or supplements for your specific need when they evaluate you just like MD's would recommend some drug for you etc.I bet they will not recommend some drug to keep you healthy though.I wonder why people pay MD's then..Hmm..Go read a medical book or maybe just call in and ask them what to do.Hey why pay lawyers when you go into their offices,or even chartered accountants when going into their firms for consultation.

[thgunner57]

but some people need to be told to exercise and eat right and are willing to pay for that privelege. Blood work sure. When the insurance companies believe they are are a cheaper alternative like PA / ARNP then there will some concern. All areas of unspecialized care are under economic attack from altenate trained people who desire to work in the field. Even some specialized i.e. CRNA vs Anesthesiologists.

[microbiologist]

besides every naturopath I know of makes a hell of a lot more money than regular medical doctors in private practice.They are doing very well since their are people that prefer an alternative practice.They see a whole lot of people my friend and they do pay and get great results,they always go back they also refer other people to them.If they were unsatisfied then people wouldn't bother with them.Get a clue about things.People would not go to MD's to get natural treatment and vice versa.Naturopathic doctors are people with a career just like everybody else.They charge for their services just like MD's.They specialize in natural sciences and other alternatives.As I said before medical science is not the answer to everything.I don't care how controlled the substances are.It still makes you unhealthy and can cause serious implications and even death.I think if you are not satisfied with one way go the other.So what is wrong with that?Nothing.

[microbiologist]

my 3 friends are naturopaths and if you see the appointment books.Its so booked up months in advanced and I notice that most naturopathic doctors have the health stores and natural clinics that they work in and its their especially when they put people on programs when they recommend things in the programs.I mean their are so many people around the world that prefer alternative treatments and are not satisfied with results from medical treatments.People are really becoming more health conscious and they want to stay healthy that means changing lifestyle as well as taking certain supplements to upkeep themselves

[AUCMD2006]

so basically one should see a naturapath if they want advice on how to become more healthy..and you advice people to "change lifestyle" all the bogus colon hydration, magnet, refelxology, and so on and your grand idea is to counsel patients on lifestyle changes as the cornerstone of your revolutionary treatment protocol? oh and vitamins

have you ever read any of the board requirements for internists, fp's? the whole mantra has been "preventive medicine" with guess what as a baseline?..if you guessed lifestyle changes you win a rubber tortilla so you can slap some sense into a reflexology patient....

you are right about a few things though. we the medical community are solely to blame for just treating the symptoms and using too much medication. it is a product of actually following scientific principles discovering drugs work and treat above symptoms while at the same time counseling patients with your world revolutionary "lifestyle changes" so that they can get off polypharmacy and either stop or significantly reduce thier dependence on our symptom relief...

problem is most patients see a relief in symptoms and don't change lifestyle. you have an entirely different patient population. you get people motivated enough to pay for your services, looking to change and get healthy. we get people complaining about a medicaid $2.00 co payment looking for a quick fix that still enables them to eat fried chicken, doughnuts.

i hope that insurance companies start reimbursing you and you get a share of our patients...i would love to see how compliant they are if the services and your "medications" are free to them. what really irks me about alternative parcticioners though is the lack of liability for anything that goes wrong....

my entire almost decade in the field i have seen 3 patients actually change lifestyles enough and stick with it to go from taking up to 20 meds down to 3 and one being fosamax....

[teratos]

I never thought about talking to any of my patients about proper nutrition, diet, exercise, proven supplements. I love how you pro-alternative medicine types always talk like allopaths are incapable of firing even a single neuron when it comes to such topics. G

[thgunner57]

allopathy practices. Same thing with chiropractors the new don't really talk the sublaxation ** anymore. I believe that is the eventuality of ND heck they wnat to sound like it ND MD you figure it out. By the way what is residency like for ND, mine was university based level 1 trauma center. Fellowship same thing. Talk about patient selection. I was a medical student on OB and I had the pleasure of being available for a delivery for a woman who desired the services of her mid-wife. Well she was a little late and it a routine delivery. This parturient breathed and pushed like a *****. She wanted the child immediately to her breast. I thought she was going to eat the placenta. This is good patient selectivity. ........... But you remember Steve McQueen vitamin B-17 leatril was real popular. He even had to go to Mexico to get it. You would be surprised what people with cancer will spend money upon seeking a cure. Most of the time the government helps regulate these parasites.

[AUCMD2006]

allopathy practices. Same thing with chiropractors the new don't really talk the sublaxation ** anymore. I believe that is the eventuality of ND heck they wnat to sound like it ND MD you figure it out. By the way what is residency like for ND, mine was university based level 1 trauma center. Fellowship same thing. Talk about patient selection. I was a medical student on OB and I had the pleasure of being available for a delivery for a woman who desired the services of her mid-wife. Well she was a little late and it a routine delivery. This parturient breathed and pushed like a *****. She wanted the child immediately to her breast. I thought she was going to eat the placenta. This is good patient selectivity. ........... But you remember Steve McQueen vitamin B-17 leatril was real popular. He even had to go to Mexico to get it. You would be surprised what people with cancer will spend money upon seeking a cure. Most of the time the government helps regulate these parasites.

great points. every profession evolves or becomes extinct. MD's routinely used bleeding and mercury as treatments, osteopaths were in left field and now chiros are starting to find a niche...

i would love to be able to send patients to a ND following real proven scientific principles over a nutriotionist or internet herbalist. hopefully the prf will regulate itself a bit more in the coming years...

[The Trifling Jester]

Listen I cannot answer that question because I am not a colon hydrotherapist or a naturopathic doctor or a herbalist ok?
How convenient. I do wonder about people who blindly throw their support behind practices they cannot understand or explain.

If you want to ask questions about homeopathics ,supplements,herbs or any colon hydrotherapy,irridology,reflexology or any alternative to what you all do well I suggest that you contact the companies that produce these products or even the scientists that have tested them and even the MD's and ND's that do further analysis of these products and mind you they can answer any question you hit them with.
Ah yes, I'm sure they'll be an excellent unbiased source of information. After that I plan on asking David Duke about his unbiased knowledge of differences between whites and blacks. It should be equally enlightening.

Vaxa International,Now Foods,Innerlight,Nature's Way,Nature's Plus,Universal Nutrition..These are the leading companies in supplements and have professional laboratories with medical professionals and scientists that you can speak with to give you advice and clinical studies.You will see for yourself ...I cannot give you the information though..You can feel free to be sarcastic with them too.
Hmmm... despite being one of the leading companies in supplements, AND having professional laboratories with medical professionals and scientists, some of those companies have been severely reprimanded by the FDA.
Now Foods:
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/02/Jul02/070502/97s-0163-let0611-vol18.pdf
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/01/Jun01/061101/let0487.pdf

Oh, this one is my favorite:
http://www.fda.gov/foi/warning_letters/g5061d.htm

Read it, please! The FDA has found the pesticides quintozene, pentachloroaniline, and oxadixyl in their Ginseng. Those oh-so-natural supplements CONTAIN THE TOXINS THEIR SO-CALLED "COLON HYDROTHERAPY" PURPORTS TO CLEANSE. What a scam! First we'll give you ginseng containing pesticides, then we'll sell you a bogus treatment to rid you of the dangerous toxins we've just put into your body!

HA!

In awe of their profit-making prowess,
The Trifling Jester

[microbiologist]

haha that doesn't say anything.All they have to do is regulate it properly but then again how often does that happen? You should see the list of drugs that were taken off the market from the fda for being extremely dangerous and even deadly.

[microbiologist]

actually all the cleansers has been proven to work effectively time after time and very safe.No complaints so far though.Hmmm...

[microbiologist]

the government cannot interfere with a food or even regulate it.The most they will try to do is join it or even create their own line of supplements.Besides there are more positives to them than negatives.

[microbiologist]

further more you have no right to call treatments "Bogus" Why say that? Or even the word quack.Treatments that have worked safely and effectively on countless occasions accross the globe and people who were qualified to do so.As I said before just because its not a medical treament doesn't mean it doesn't work or being bogus.You have to learn to watch what you say because it doesn't make sense.These are people that are making a difference in people's lives in an alternative way when they are not getting results from medical practices

[teratos]

further more you have no right to call treatments "Bogus" Why say that? Or even the word quack.Treatments that have worked safely and effectively on countless occasions accross the globe and people who were qualified to do so.As I said before just because its not a medical treament doesn't mean it doesn't work or being bogus.You have to learn to watch what you say because it doesn't make sense.These are people that are making a difference in people's lives in an alternative way when they are not getting results from medical practices

Show me the double-blinded studies powered for statistical significance and we'll talk. Until then, the treatments are unproven, and any claims regarding their efficacy is thus bogus. G

[teratos]

haha that doesn't say anything.All they have to do is regulate it properly but then again how often does that happen? You should see the list of drugs that were taken off the market from the fda for being extremely dangerous and even deadly.

Why? because a lot of the studies done could not have enough subjects to catch the ill effects. There are often legit reasons. Sometimes it is sheer greed that pushes these drugs to market. Naturopaths can't fall prey to greed? G

[The Trifling Jester]

haha that doesn't say anything.All they have to do is regulate it properly but then again how often does that happen? You should see the list of drugs that were taken off the market from the fda for being extremely dangerous and even deadly.
It does say something. Specifically, it shows that these "natural" herbs and whatnots contain the unnatural pesticides "quintozene, pentachloroaniline, and oxadixyl." How can naturopaths advocate the use of compounds containing toxins and at the same time hawk treatments for cleansing those toxins from your body? They are generating their own business!

actually all the cleansers has been proven to work effectively time after time and very safe.No complaints so far though.Hmmm...
We have already established that you don't know how they work (read: don't work). Because you don't know their method of action, you cannot know if they work effectively. What are you measuring? What peer-review journals have published this "proof?"

Give me some evidence other than the anecdotal ruminations of the birkenstock bunch.

Hugs and Kisses,
The Trifling Jester

[microbiologist]

ask a naturopathic physician that not me I said.Besides didn't the fda warn them? Aren't they regulating it properly now.You act like if medical science is so perfect when its far from it.Filled with false claims ,opinions and not to mention theories.Double Blind studies does not have any substantial use.So because you all have double blinded studies the stuff works? So why is it making patients unhealthy? Why do patients have to suffer by constantly pumping money into statins or any synthesized product just to stay alive?If they forgot to take their medication then they will what..die? Why don't you try it sometime it seems to be in style for certain jesters.

[microbiologist]

you tell me what you think their method of action is..ohh I forgot you just have an opinion about something that you don't know about.Oops I guess you took too much aspirin last night,now it affects your brain cells.Maybe you should try some gingko biloba.Ohh wait you want a double blind study to show how it works right?What a total idiot.

[microbiologist]

I think you are afraid to approach the manufacturers or the scientists that actually formulated these products or even the cleansers.You should try asking them who would know about the various studies they did.Anyway they have nothing to prove to you.Even if they show you live footage of a colon being treated effectively infront your eyes.You will still say...am..well you know its not medical science so its not fact! Hahaha

I never had so much fun before.I bet they will have more fun laughing you out of their lab.
I guess everything else is bogus since its not the great double blind study!
Isn't medical science fun?

[swimguy23]

I think you are afraid to approach the manufacturers or the scientists that actually formulated these products or even the cleansers.You should try asking them who would know about the various studies they did.Anyway they have nothing to prove to you.Even if they show you live footage of a colon being treated effectively infront your eyes.You will still say...am..well you know its not medical science so its not fact! Hahaha

I never had so much fun before.I bet they will have more fun laughing you out of their lab.
I guess everything else is bogus since its not the great double blind study!
Isn't medical science fun?

youre a very annoying person

[AUCMD2006]

you tell me what you think their method of action is..ohh I forgot you just have an opinion about something that you don't know about.Oops I guess you took too much aspirin last night,now it affects your brain cells.Maybe you should try some gingko biloba.Ohh wait you want a double blind study to show how it works right?What a total idiot.

i think the bigger idiot is the one taking any treatment, medical and non medical, in which mechanism of action is not known....at least homeopaths are immune from any adverse reactions because their products are sugar water and will not cause any suide effects because there is nothing in them...so i wouldn't mind patients seeing any homeopath because i know whatever they take will not affect anything i do....

[microbiologist]

In recent years, it seems like there have been a rash of litigation and major class action lawsuits involving defective medical devices and pharmaceutical products. Within this context, it seems reasonable to ask why, with all of the money that is poured into this nation's health care industry, and with the lengthy approval process imposed by the Food and Drug Administration (http://www.fda.gov/), we are nonetheless confronted with dangerous drugs and defective medical products.
One part of the equation is the inevitability of human error. Some cases involve defects in medical devices resulting from errors in the manufacturing process, or in quality control procedures. While the technology used to manufacture and inspect medical products has advanced significantly, no matter how much care is exercised, human error can always creep into safety systems.
Unfortunately, as long as profits are at stake, there will also always be some companies which are willing to forego certain safety advances in favor of fattening their corporate profits. The cost of developing, patenting, and obtaining government approval for a medical device or for a new drug can be staggering. Delays in approval can shave years off of the life of a patent (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/intellectual_property/patent_law.html), and after a patent expires the profits associated with a new drug or medical device are severely diminished by competition from generic products. This can create a significant temptation to hide negative information about a potentially lucrative drug or device, so as to obtain government approval and to bring the product to market.
At the same time, there may also be considerable pressure on the FDA to approve a new drug or device. Drug companies lobby hard for "reforms" in the FDA's procedures meant to speed the approval process, so they can start profiting from their new drugs. This is not to say that there is not room for improvement in the FDA's procedures, or in the time it can take to bring a valuable new drug to market, or that drug manufacturers wish to bring defective products to market. But when things go wrong as a result of expedited approval or concealed dangers, the consequences for consumers can be catastrophic.
A defective drug may carry significant health risks, and may even be fatal. The failure of a medical device can also cause injury or death, and the implant of a defective medical device (such as a heart valve, knee joint or pacemaker) may require another major surgery to replace the defective device - sometimes at a greater risk to the patient or with a lower chance of success than the original surgery.
Pharmaceutical Product Liability Case Studies:

In recent years, we have seen pharmaceutical product litigation involving drugs including:

Accutane (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/accutane.html) - An acne medication alleged to trigger depression and possible suicidal behavior.
Baycol (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/baycol.html) - A dangerous cholesterol drug, whose manufacturer reportedly suppressed information about known dangers.
Bextra (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/bextra.html) - A Cox-2 NSAID pain medication similar in many respects to Vioxx (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/vioxx.html).
Crestor (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/crestor.html) - A statin medication, similar to Baycol (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/baycol.html), alleged to carry an undue risk to patients.
Celebrex (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/celebrex.html) - Another NSAID pain medication similar in many respects to Vioxx (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/vioxx.html).
Fen Phen (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/pulmonary_hypertension.html) - A combination of drugs prescribed for weight loss. Manufacturers allegedly suppressed information about known dangers.
Prempro & Premarin (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/prempro-premarin.html) - Discussing litigation over hormone replacement therapy, focusing on the medications Prempro and Premarin.
Rezulin (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/rezulin.html) - A dangerous diabetes drug which received "fast track" approval by the FDA.
Serzone (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/serzone.html) - An antidepressant medication associated with liver disease.
Vioxx (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/vioxx.html) - A medication, voluntarily recalled by its manufacturer, used to relieve osteoarthritis symptoms, acute pain, menstrual pain.
Zyprexa (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/zyprexa.html) - An antipsychotic medication associated with heightened risk of diabetes, hyperglycemia, and ketoacidosis. There has also been litigation over defective medical products and devices, including:
Guidant Ancure Endograft device (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/guidant_ancure.html) - a medicla device for treating aortic aneurisms, which led to the criminal conviction of the manufacturer.
Guidant Defibrillator (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/product_liability/guidant_defibrillator.html) - an implanted heart defibrillator which is alleged to been unsafe due to an electrical defect.

[microbiologist]

Fen-Phen

Fenfluramine and dexfenfluramine were two popular diet drugs prior to their 1997 recall. Marketed as Pondimin and Redux respectively, the drugs were often used in combination with another drug, phentermine. The result, Fen-Phen, was used by more than six million Americans for weight loss.
Unfortunately, in 1997 Fen-Phen was linked to cases of heart valve disease and primary pulmonary hypertension (PPH)—both of which can be life-threatening conditions. Heart valve disease causes damage to the valves in the heart that control blood flow to the body. The condition causes the valves to regurgitate blood, which strains the heart. More than 100 cases of heart valve disease had been reported to the Food and Drug Administration at the time of Fen-Phen's removal from the market. It is now estimated that approximately 30 percent of former Fen-Phen patients suffer from some heart valve abnormalities.
PPH is a very serious condition in which the lungs' blood vessels narrow. This constricts the amount of blood that can pass through these vessels and often results in high blood pressure. Heart and lung failure can eventually occur. A transplant may be necessary, and PPH can be fatal.
If you have taken Fen-Phen and have not yet seen a physician for evaluation, we recommend that you do so as soon as possible. Intervention with medication, valve surgery, or transplant may be necessary. Please also remember that you have legal rights. One of our Illinois pharmaceutical litigation attorneys at The Margolis Firm can help you protect those legal rights.
« back to top (http://www.il-injury.com/html/dangerous-drugs.html#)
Lamictal®

Lamictal®, also called lamotrigine, is an epilepsy drug prescribed to control seizures. The drug has been linked to rare cases of hypersensitivity reactions (including *******-Johnson syndrome), life-threatening rashes, and sudden death. Severe side effects have a much higher probability of occurring in children. There has also been an increasing tendency for Lamictal® prescriptions to be confused with Lamisil®, a potent and potentially dangerous anti-fungal medication that can cause serious liver damage, causing the FDA to issue a warning to medical practitioners, pharmacists, and patients about its use. A mistaken Lamisil® prescription could also result in dangerous seizures for an epileptic.
Those who suffer adverse reactions to Lamictal® may experience symptoms of severe skin rash or hives, fever, and swelling of the lips, tongue, face or lymph glands. Patients who experience any of these symptoms while taking Lamictal® should immediately consult their physician. They may also want to consult with our personal injury firm in Illinois to discuss their legal options. Our dangerous drug lawyers may be able to help you win entitled compensation.
« back to top (http://www.il-injury.com/html/dangerous-drugs.html#)
Lamisil®

Lamisil® is a prescription medication used to treat fungal infections of the toe and/or fingernails. Lamisil® is available in both topical and tablet form. While adverse health affects have not been found with Lamisil® cream or solution, serious cases of liver damage have been associated with Lamisil® tablets.
On May 9, 2001, the Food and Drug Administration issued a Public Health Advisory, warning patients about the potential dangers associated with Lamisil® tablets. Prior to that date, 16 cases of serious liver damage, including 11 deaths and two transplants, had been reported among patients using Lamisil®. While the FDA has not recalled Lamisil®, they have urged doctors to screen potential patients more carefully and to run special tests to make sure a prescription fungal medication like Lamisil® is really necessary.
If you have taken or are taking Lamisil®, be sure to see your doctor if you experience any of the following symptoms: dark urine, stomach cramping or pain, nausea, vomiting, excessive tiredness, diminished appetite, or changes in skin tone. Patients who have been harmed by Lamisil® may want to consult an attorney who is knowledgeable in the laws of Illinois, and experienced in pharmaceutical litigation.
« back to top (http://www.il-injury.com/html/dangerous-drugs.html#)
Meridia®

Meridia® (generic name: sibutramine) is a popular diet drug that is frequently used to treat obesity. Meridia® has been shown to promote moderate weight loss in people who use it. However, Meridia® has been associated with at least 29 deaths—many cardiovascular in nature. Numerous reports of health problems amongst Meridia® users have also been reported to the FDA and European health organizations. As a result, on March 19, 2002, Public Citizen, a consumer advocacy group, petitioned the FDA to recall the drug.
First approved in 1997, Meridia® has a history of raising safety concerns. During initial clinical trials, some questioned whether its relative efficacy was worth its potential health risks, considering that patients taking Meridia® tend to lose only 10 or so more pounds than people who simply diet. Since Meridia®'s approval, the FDA has twice strengthened the drug's warning labels. Meridia® has already been withdrawn from the market in Italy.
Possible dangerous side effects of Meridia® include elevated blood pressure, irregular heartbeat, heart arrhythmia, and other cardiovascular problems. If you have been harmed by Meridia® and live in Illinois, a pharmaceutical litigation attorney can advise you of your legal options.
« back to top (http://www.il-injury.com/html/dangerous-drugs.html#)
OxyContin®

OxyContin® (the brand name for oxycodone hydrochloride) is a prescription medication used for pain relief. It is most commonly used to help patients with serious, long-term pain, such as those with cancer, arthritis, broken bones, and other serious injuries. Unfortunately, OxyContin® has also been widely abused and has been connected to 282 deaths (according to the Drug Enforcement Agency's numbers).
Derived from an opium alkaloid, OxyContin® shares some properties with opium, morphine, and heroin. For one, it can be highly addictive. It is also a strong sedative, it can alleviate pain, and it can produce feelings of euphoria. Potential abusers are often drawn by this last characteristic. Although OxyContin® comes in a time-released formula, abusers can get around this by chewing the pill, crushing and snorting it, or dissolving it in liquid and injecting or drinking it. OxyContin® is also relatively cheap—many insurance companies pay for the prescription, something that can encourage fraud. Patients may fake injuries and doctors and pharmacists may order or fill illegitimate prescriptions for bribes. OxyContin® is also sold on the streets throughout the United States, and even here in Illinois. Contact one of our dangerous drug lawyers today for a case evaluation. We can determine whether you have a valid claim and should seek damages.
Many of the deaths related to OxyContin® have been due to overdose. By subverting the time-release mechanism, recreational users endanger their safety. The quick 'high' can lead to serious health consequences, including death. When OxyContin® is used in conjunction with alcohol or other drugs, risk increases.
Some have pointed to Purdue Pharma, OxyContin's manufacturer, as being complicit in the problem. They argue that Purdue has placed too much emphasis on marketing their drug and not enough on educating doctors and the public about OxyContin's addictive potential. Consumers who have been injured by OxyContin® are entitled to consult a pharmaceutical litigation attorney regarding their damages.
« back to top (http://www.il-injury.com/html/dangerous-drugs.html#)
Paxil®

Paxil® is an antidepressant drug used to treat a variety of psychological problems, including depression, anxiety disorders, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and panic disorder. A member of a class of drugs known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), Paxil® has been widely used since 1993. Paxil® works by regulating the levels of serotonin, a neurotransmitter, in the brain. By controlling the chemical balance in the brain, Paxil® is able to reduce feelings of depression, anxiety, and panic.
In December 2001, however, the FDA added a warning label to Paxil®'s packaging regarding its potentially addictive nature. Some drugs are known to cause mild to moderate withdrawal symptoms when a patient stops taking them, but the withdrawal effects of Paxil® can be dangerous and debilitating. Patients have reported symptoms more severe than the conditions for which they were originally treated, and some have chosen to go back on Paxil® rather than risk its withdrawal effects. Some of the withdrawal symptoms reported by patients who have stopped taking Paxil® include: agitation, anxiety, depression, nausea, dizziness, confusion, and suicidal and homicidal thoughts.
If you have taken Paxil® and have suffered from troubling withdrawal symptoms, you may have a legitimate personal injury claim here in Illinois. Our qualified dangerous drug lawyers can review your case free of charge.
« back to top (http://www.il-injury.com/html/dangerous-drugs.html#)
Vioxx®

Millions of arthritis victims hailed the 1999 release of Vioxx®, a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medication, as a miracle. The drug proved highly effective for managing acute forms of pain, and in 2000, a clinical trial was begun to study its ability to prevent recurring colon polyps. While Vioxx® was found to successfully prevent the formation of new polyps, after 18 months, a significant number of the patients in the study developed cardiovascular problems. Twice as many Vioxx® recipients suffered strokes, heart attacks or blood clots as those patients who received placebos.
While Merck & Co., manufacturer of Vioxx®, claims the risks posed by long term use of Vioxx® are relatively low, on September 30, 2004 the company chose to voluntarily halt the clinical trial and remove the drug from pharmacies worldwide. With as many as 80 million users worldwide, the Vioxx® travesty is considered one of the largest in history.
Merck’s decision to remove Vioxx® from pharmacies is a relief, but for people who have used the medication since it was released five years ago, this action came too late. If you or a loved one has been injured or endured a cardiovascular event as a result of taking Vioxx®, contact a Illinois pharmaceutical litigation attorney immediately for a consultation.
« back to top (http://www.il-injury.com/html/dangerous-drugs.html#)
Zithromax®

Zithromax®, also known as azithromycin, is an antibiotic used to treat bacterial infections. It is used for both children and adults for problems such as tonsillitis, pneumonia, strep throat, and upper respiratory infections. Zithromax® is manufactured by Pfizer. Zithromax® has been linked to cases of liver damage.
Because Zithromax® is a powerful antibiotic, it is usually only prescribed for short periods of time (usually less than five days). It should never be taken longer than recommended by your physician. In 2000, the Food and Drug Administration added a warning about possible liver toxicity to Zithromax®'s label. However, the drug is still on the market. If you have been harmed by taking Zithromax®, you may be able to receive compensation for your injuries. Contact our Illinois firm for a review of your dangerous drug case. Our lawyers can determine the validity of your lawsuit and discuss your legal options with you.
« back to top (http://www.il-injury.com/html/dangerous-drugs.html#)

[microbiologist]

Duragesic® Pain Patch Recall

The Duragesic® Pain Patch is a potent, opioid pain medication (fentanyl) intended for moderate or severe, chronic pain. The medication is administered via an adhesive patch worn on the skin and delivered through time-release directly into the bloodstream.
In Spring 2004, Jannsen Pharmaceutica began recalling lots of its Duragesic patches after it was discovered that some patches were leaking medication around the edges and could potentially cause a fatal overdose. Fentanyl overdose causes symptoms of nausea and vomiting, as well as weakness, drowsiness, and other possibly fatal complications. If patch leakage results in an insufficient dosage of medication, patients could suffer unnecessary pain or withdrawal symptoms. Patients who have suffered adverse health effects as a result of a defective Duragesic® Pain Patch may want to our Illinois dangerous drug lawyers to explore their legal options.
« back to top (http://www.il-injury.com/html/dangerous-drugs.html#)
Accutane®

Accutane® is the most potent acne drug on the market today. Available only by prescription and typically used as a last resort when all other treatment methods have failed, Accutane® is highly effective at treating severe acne. Unfortunately, its strong formulation also means that a large percentage of patients experience side effects. Some of these side effects, such as very dry skin, sun sensitivity, and nausea, are relatively manageable.
Other Accutane® side effects are more serious. Accutane® can cause serious birth defects, including mental retardation and physical deformities. It can also cause fetal death. Because of the extremely high risk of birth defects for women who are pregnant or become pregnant while on the drug, Accutane® patients must agree with their doctors on a pre-prescription pregnancy prevention plan.
Accutane® has also been linked to cases of depression, psychosis, and suicide. The possible psychological effects of the drug prompted the FDA to revise warning labels and add a separate consent form acknowledging the risk before allowing patients to begin treatment with Accutane®.
Despite the warning labels and consent forms patients must fill out prior to taking the drug, however, Accutane® is still responsible for numerous cases of birth defects and suicide. Patients who have been harmed by Accutane® in Illinois may want to contact our pharmaceutical litigation attorneys to help protect their legal rights.
« back to top (http://www.il-injury.com/html/dangerous-drugs.html#)
Baycol®

From 1997 to August 2001, Baycol® was widely used to treat patients with elevated cholesterol levels. Baycol®, or cerivastatin, is a member of the statin class of drugs, which lower cholesterol by blocking lipid production.
Baycol® was recalled on August 8, 2001 after 31 U.S. deaths occurred among patients taking the drug. 52 deaths had been reported worldwide. The deaths were caused by rhabdomyolysis, a muscle ailment that is not usually life-threatening. Rhabdomyolysis is a possible side effect of all statin drugs, but its incidence was much higher and much more serious amongst Baycol® patients. When a patient develops rhabdomyolysis, the muscle cells are damaged. The cells then release a pigment, called myoglobin, into the bloodstream. High levels of myoglobin tend to put excessive stress on the kidneys, which try to filter the myoglobin out of the blood. Kidney failure and death are the most extreme possible results.
Patients who took higher doses of Baycol® and those who took Baycol® in conjunction with another cholesterol drug, gemfibrozil, have had a higher risk of developing rhabdomyolysis. Bayer A.G. Pharmaceuticals, Baycol®'s manufacturer, recalled the drug voluntarily after stronger warnings did not prevent further harm from occurring to patients taking Baycol®.
Patients taking Baycol® should consult with their doctor if they experience any symptoms of muscle or joint pain, weakness, fatigue, nausea, or dark urine. Those patients injured by Baycol® may be entitled to financial compensation. If you suspect you have a Baycol® lawsuit, contact our Illinois pharmaceutical litigation attorneys today.
« back to top (http://www.il-injury.com/html/dangerous-drugs.html#)
Celebrex®

A popular arthritis drug, Celebrex® is a member of a class of drugs called COX-2 inhibitors. These drugs are non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), but unlike ibuprofen and aspirin, COX-2 inhibitors like Celebrex® block only the COX-2 enzyme that causes pain. Previous NSAIDs have also blocked COX-1, which helps maintain the stomach's protective lining. As a result, Celebrex® and other COX-2 inhibitors are thought to be less likely to cause ulcers and other stomach problems. Celebrex® is typically used to treat osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis. It is co-marketed by Pharmacia and Pfizer, Inc.
Although Celebrex® is still available, recent studies have brought its safety into question. The FDA has denied Celebrex®'s request to remove warnings about stomach ulcers from its label, in part because taking Celebrex® in combination with aspirin (used to reduce a person's risk of heart attack) actually increased a patient's risk of stomach ulcer. Studies have not definitively shown that Celebrex® poses a lower risk of ulcer than other NSAIDs, even when taken alone.
More than 10 deaths from gastrointestinal complications have occurred amongst Celebrex® patients. There have also been reports of kidney and liver damage. In addition, studies have found an increased risk of heart attack among people taking Vioxx®, a drug similar to Celebrex®. As a result, concerns have been raised about Celebrex®'s possible cardiovascular effects as well. Patients injured by Celebrex® in Illinois should contact our dangerous drug lawyers for a free review of their claim.

[microbiologist]

The Anti-Alzheimerís Disease Diet, Nutrients, and Chelation Treatment.
by Dr. Morton Walker MD.

Three modalities of intervention with Alzheimerís disease are discussed:

Chelation therapy : Is the intravenous and/or oral administration of specific amino acids and other nutrients to pull metallic ions out of the cellular fluids, the cells, the lymphatics and all other tissues where they are accumulated.
The anti-Alzheimer's disease diet: The extensive use of nutritional oils such as EFA's (Omega-three and Omega-six fatty acids).
Brain Boosters to be added to the above diet: "Smart Nutrients" and "Smart Drugs" are discussed and listed.

[microbiologist]

Its funny how people who live in the western medicine society are the most unhealthy people on earth and die quicker than anyone else compared to the other part of the world especially europe and asia.Hmm..
I have studies on that though.

I have proof from Dr.Earl Mindell who developed the product Goji who travels around the world.When he travelled to those places like asia and europe he noticed that the majority of the population use supplements and also have a good lifestyle.They are healthier and live longer than those who took drugs or risky surgery.In the himalyas he noted that the population never took a drug and ate of goji berries which had antioxidant properties lived to be over 100 years old and were strong and healthy.Also having 5 important polysaccarides.Is medical science just a money making business?

[AUCMD2006]

Its funny how people who live in the western medicine society are the most unhealthy people on earth and die quicker than anyone else compared to the other part of the world especially europe and asia.Hmm..
I have studies on that though.

lifestyle issues. i know i would be healthier if i was french with a 20 hour work week with siestas and boku benefits.

too bad its bankrupting europe.....

but what is even funnier are people paying money to get dilutions of billions to one...that is a real knee slapper

[microbiologist]

In terms of double blinded studies,
Chemotherapy have never passed double blinded studies especially if its a standard.Why is it used in medicine and it always fails if double blinded studies are an indication of what is safe.Why is it dangerous? You all sound like quacks to me though.

[The Trifling Jester]

The Anti-Alzheimerís Disease Diet, Nutrients, and Chelation Treatment.
by Dr. Morton Walker MD.

Three modalities of intervention with Alzheimerís disease are discussed:

Chelation therapy : Is the intravenous and/or oral administration of specific amino acids and other nutrients to pull metallic ions out of the cellular fluids, the cells, the lymphatics and all other tissues where they are accumulated.
The anti-Alzheimer's disease diet: The extensive use of nutritional oils such as EFA's (Omega-three and Omega-six fatty acids).
Brain Boosters to be added to the above diet: "Smart Nutrients" and "Smart Drugs" are discussed and listed.
We have asked for a published article in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. What have you given us? A Book? A pamphlet? A magazine article out of The National Enquirer? If it is an article, what journal was it published in?

I have proof from Dr.Earl Mindell who developed the product Goji who travels around the world.When he travelled to those places like asia and europe he noticed that the majority of the population use supplements and also have a good lifestyle.They are healthier and live longer than those who took drugs or risky surgery.

Let's take a look at an illustration which will help us understand your logic.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2914/1940/400/mmr.0.jpg

Ahhhh, now I see where you are coming from.

The population uses supplements:the population lives a long time: therefore, the supplements cause you to live a long time.

Brilliant!

A defective drug may carry significant health risks, and may even be fatal.
You then list a bunch of drugs ad nauseum. That's all well and good except, this is the naturopathic forum, where we discuss the dangers within the unproven realm of naturopathy. If you want to talk about how bad allopathy is and how aspirin kills then you should start another thread in the proper forum. Attacking allopathy won't give the witch doctors any credibility.

you tell me what you think their method of action is..ohh I forgot you just have an opinion about something that you don't know about.Oops I guess you took too much aspirin last night,now it affects your brain cells.Maybe you should try some gingko biloba.Ohh wait you want a double blind study to show how it works right?What a total idiot.

Well there is no method of action. That's the whole point! Having a patient squirt water up their butt won't cure their asthma. Moreover, since you are the one supporting an entirely bogus treatment, the onus is on you to provide proof of its efficacy. (which you can't, since you've already freely admitted that you don't know how it doesn't work)

Additionally, what is wrong with wanting double blinded studies on the drugs we prescribe to patients? How does that make me an idiot? I can think of no reason that this wouldn't be prudent. Perhaps you are having some difficulty with the terms being used here.

Confessions of a quackbuster:
http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-double-blind-studies-steven.html

Since I'm such an unbiased, even-handed, and nice guy, the above link is to an article written by one of your own, Steven Bratman, a self-described expert in the field of alternative therapies.

Ta-ta for now,
The Trifling Jester

[swimguy23]

Its funny how people who live in the western medicine society are the most unhealthy people on earth and die quicker than anyone else compared to the other part of the world especially europe and asia.Hmm..
I have studies on that though.

I have proof from Dr.Earl Mindell who developed the product Goji who travels around the world.When he travelled to those places like asia and europe he noticed that the majority of the population use supplements and also have a good lifestyle.They are healthier and live longer than those who took drugs or risky surgery.In the himalyas he noted that the population never took a drug and ate of goji berries which had antioxidant properties lived to be over 100 years old and were strong and healthy.Also having 5 important polysaccarides.Is medical science just a money making business?

anyone with more than 2 brain cells firing multiple neurons would more than likely understand that this is probably due to inbreeding of the population that got lucky enough to have genes coding for longevity.....but if i have a choice of living to be 85 in the US or 110 living in the mountains, marrying my sister, wearing my pet around my groin and starting fires with sticks I think i'll choose the US......

[teratos]

The rate of death from cancer has decreased in the US, for the first time. I think that must be from coffee enemas. Chemo is ugly stuff. If you have a cancer that is going to kill you, it is worth it. We cure cancer in a lot of people. We have studies that prove it. Saying there aren't studies on chemo is like saying the sky isn't blue. You can't say the same thing about embryonic sheep cell injections.

Celebrex, Baycol Accutane etc. are drugs that were found to cause problems once they were used for a long time. The original studies weren't powered to pick them up. You couldn't include enough people in a study to pick up a lot of these problems. They are very real, but often very rare.

You can't see the big picture. You accuse me of being narrow-minded, when truthfully, you couldn't get more narrow-minded. You will certainly disagree with me. That is because you are so narrow-minded. Your arguements hold absolutely zero merit.

[microbiologist]

ohh and I guess yours hold merit when you have not proven anything yourself then.Just stupid opinions when the facts are infront your face

[microbiologist]

off course you are narrow minded simply because you would only stick on one view especially since thats all you've studied throughout school thinking that its the only way of treatments.I mean I can't blame you all.Its still sad that you think this way though.Good thing not all MD's think like you.Thats because they want to make a good difference in people's lives.

[microbiologist]

We have asked for a published article in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. What have you given us? A Book? A pamphlet? A magazine article out of The National Enquirer? If it is an article, what journal was it published in?



Let's take a look at an illustration which will help us understand your logic.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2914/1940/400/mmr.0.jpg

Ahhhh, now I see where you are coming from.

The population uses supplements:the population lives a long time: therefore, the supplements cause you to live a long time.

Brilliant!


You then list a bunch of drugs ad nauseum. That's all well and good except, this is the naturopathic forum, where we discuss the dangers within the unproven realm of naturopathy. If you want to talk about how bad allopathy is and how aspirin kills then you should start another thread in the proper forum. Attacking allopathy won't give the witch doctors any credibility.



Well there is no method of action. That's the whole point! Having a patient squirt water up their butt won't cure their asthma. Moreover, since you are the one supporting an entirely bogus treatment, the onus is on you to provide proof of its efficacy. (which you can't, since you've already freely admitted that you don't know how it doesn't work)

Additionally, what is wrong with wanting double blinded studies on the drugs we prescribe to patients? How does that make me an idiot? I can think of no reason that this wouldn't be prudent. Perhaps you are having some difficulty with the terms being used here.

Confessions of a quackbuster:
http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/03/why-double-blind-studies-steven.html

Since I'm such an unbiased, even-handed, and nice guy, the above link is to an article written by one of your own, Steven Bratman, a self-described expert in the field of alternative therapies.

Ta-ta for now,
The Trifling Jester


I cannot support drugs because they don't work ok? Simple.Supressing something is not something that works.Curing it does.Double Blinded studies has no credibility and what makes steven bratman an expert in alternative therapies? Where is his qualification? Funny thats the same thing Stephen Barett was saying and the judge ordered him to stop calling himself an expert because he is a liar and a biased one too.I will never believe anything from quackwatch or even quackfiles.Its so funny how an MD has so much time to waste behind some stupid website that doesn't make sense and has absolutely no proof or evidence of what it says about nature.Its really a big joke and its followers like you agree with all the opinions it says.Its like an accult.You keep talking about homeopathy and alternative treatments like if you know anything about it.Frankly you sound like an infant trying to fight for a toy.Which one is better.Narrow minded.Quack.Quacks are people who suppress symptoms,scams people out of money for bogus treatments (Treatments that have no positive effects) Trying to scare people into medications for the rest of their lives and making them unhealthy.I think a naturopath should come up with a website like quackwatch and we will see what will happen.Coming up with the same kind of opinions like stephen and talking trash.I guess naturopaths are busy helping people and are not taking on little boys like barett and minions. HAHA

[microbiologist]

for the tenth time saying that I have to show you double blinded studies does not make sense.
The "double-blind study" is one of about 45 different kinds of scientific studies used, and approved for use, within the scientific community. It was designed for, and is usually restricted to, testing new dangerous drugs for the claims drug companies wish to make about their new laboratory produced products. Generally, in this type of study, you give half of the group the new pill, and the other half gets a sugar pill that looks just like the original. This type of study simply does not apply to new research. Never has, never will.
And worse, the "double-blind study" is considered to be heinous, and was banned by world government during the Helsinki Accord in 1964.

[microbiologist]

explain to me why detoxification won't help in the curing of asthma.I want to hear your opinion.Especially since mucus is waste in your body.I'm pretty sure you don't have a clue about colon hydrotherapy.All you can say is ohh you can squirt water up your butt.Why don't you take a hose,push it up your butt and press really hard so you can get a full cleanse and then the waste should come through your mouth.I guess that explains what you have learnt about colonics.Hmm you should stop talking nonsense.

[microbiologist]

I'm still waiting on an answer as to why this MD calls himself an expert on alternative therapies.Or is it that he is an expert on deception and lies just to push people away from alternatives.

[microbiologist]

yes I said that the people have lived a long time and supplements can cause you to live a long time.It doesn't take some double blind study to make that possible.Its simply that people take them and when doctors tested their health status.It was improved ,caused them to be healthier and live longer.Even testimonies about it.How often do you hear testimonies on drugs making you healthy? Never! Ohh wait I'm sorry I didn't publish any evidence in what I just said or even any illustrations,graphs or even laboratory studies.Ohh I guess you think I evolved from apes and the world was created by the big bang.I guess you want scientific evidence that God exists too.Or why people become demon posessed.Ohh wait I think stephen barett would say they need medications to stop their behaviour especially when people start floating about ground.How can you explain that? You can't explain or show everything.Besides you base things on scientific studies? Yet you use the drugs on patients and what happens? You get negative effects.So why continue?You want a quick fix thats it!!!! Brilliant!!! I guess that solves everything then.

[microbiologist]

Many doctors are now embracing colonic irrigation as an adjunct to their traditional medical treatments,or as part of an overall regimen of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) designed to cleanse and detoxify their patient's colon,liver,kidney and lymphatic systems

Dr.Leonard Smith,MD,of Gainesville,Florida,a board certified general surgeon by the American College of Surgery,with 25 years practicing as a specialist in gastrointestinal surgery states,"If medical centers,hospitals,and clinics installed colon hydrotherapy departments,they would find such departments just as efficacious for patients as their present treatment areas which as devoted to physiotherapy."

Colonics administered by a trained colonic therapists,using state-of-the-art colonic hydrotherapy equipment ensures maximum efficacy and safety,and is the perfect procedure to eliminate constipation,detoxify the major organs of elimination and restore normal bowel function.

Colon cleansing can also be greatly assisted by the use of herbal supplement colon cleansers.When used in combination with drinking lots of water,addition of colonic bacterial flora and fiber food supplements,you may achieve excellent cleansing benefits.

But if your goal is a more thorough cleanse,as part of a general detoxification or wellness program,you will find scheduling a colonic,or series of colonics,highly beneficial and much easier when performed by a competent colon hydrotherapist.

But,like most things in life,not everyone agrees that colonics are beneficial.

Some self-proclaimed medical experts discount and underestimate the importance of bowel "regularity" and maintaining proper colon health in relation to ones overall health.They view colonics and the use of colon hydrotherapy as a form of,in their own words,"gastrointestinal quackery."

In their narrow view...All alternative health care modalities are useless.

Possible to their own premature demise,they contend that allopathic medicine (drugs and surgery) are the ONLY viable path to health and longevity.Many health professionals,doctors and at least on Nobel Laureate disagree profoundly,understanding the wide ranging benefits of colonic irrigation and the practice of colon hydrotherapy.

Not only do many medical professionals heartily endorse the use of alternative health therapies-including colonic irrigation-but they've even incorportated these therapies as an integral part of their daily patient care and healing.

The fact remains.. Colonic irrigation is an easy way to cleanse your colon,and whether you choose to use a home colonic(enema) kit,or you prefer the services of a professional colon hydrotherapist,using the latest state-of-the-art colon therapy equipment in a private health clinic..Your health will benefit.

Colon cleansing for women can be particularly advantageous to alleviate pre and post menstrual discomfort and pain.Men experiencing constipation and prostate problems,onset by excess pressure on the lower bowel,may also obtain significant relief from a series of colonic irrigations.

Cancer patients,experiencing increased toxic stress and constipation during chemotherapy and radiation treatment,can benefit from colon hydrotherapy.Douglas Brodie,MD,of Reno,Nevada a practicing oncologist and homeopath observes,"I have found over the years that cancer patients who are not doing well usually are toxic and not being cleansed." Any reduction of toxic stress on the major organs of elimination may aid in strengthening the immune system.

[AUCMD2006]

anyone with more than 2 brain cells firing multiple neurons would more than likely understand that this is probably due to inbreeding of the population that got lucky enough to have genes coding for longevity.....but if i have a choice of living to be 85 in the US or 110 living in the mountains, marrying my sister, wearing my pet around my groin and starting fires with sticks I think i'll choose the US......

i have my pet around my groin, are you saying i am a hillbillie? i demand an apology

[swimguy23]

i have my pet around my groin, are you saying i am a hillbillie? i demand an apology

i'll apologize when you are able to provide proof and studies for naturpaths :twisted:

[teratos]

Dude, you have issues. The sky is green.

[swimguy23]

Dude, you have issues. The sky is green.

actually the sky has no color.....it appears blue because of light refracting off of molecules in the atmosphere.....

[AUCMD2006]

actually the sky has no color.....it appears blue because of light refracting off of molecules in the atmosphere.....

ah swimguy and your "science"...

you're both wrong, its blue and green. for naturapaths, homeopaths etc. the sky is blue because mother nature sent a message through the easter bunny who told santa claus to tell the fairies to sprinkle their blue fairy dust. however the message was misread by some fairies because santa claus spilled his drink on some of the notices and therefore some parts are done with green fairy dust

[The Trifling Jester]

explain to me why detoxification won't help in the curing of asthma.I want to hear your opinion.Especially since mucus is waste in your body.I'm pretty sure you don't have a clue about colon hydrotherapy.All you can say is ohh you can squirt water up your butt.Why don't you take a hose,push it up your butt and press really hard so you can get a full cleanse and then the waste should come through your mouth.I guess that explains what you have learnt about colonics.Hmm you should stop talking nonsense.

Explain to me why placing a fried egg on my forehead won't cure Alzheimer's. I want to hear your opinion.

Joining in your preferred method of madness, AKA talking nonsense,
The Trifling Jester

[AUCMD2006]

explain to me why detoxification won't help in the curing of asthma.I want to hear your opinion.Especially since mucus is waste in your body.I'm pretty sure you don't have a clue about colon hydrotherapy.All you can say is ohh you can squirt water up your butt.Why don't you take a hose,push it up your butt and press really hard so you can get a full cleanse and then the waste should come through your mouth.I guess that explains what you have learnt about colonics.Hmm you should stop talking nonsense.


mucus is not a "waste" in your body. it lines the cavities and seals in mositure as well as provide a layer of protection with antibodies. in your stomach it is your "waste" that keeps acid from digesting you alive.

[swimguy23]

mucus is not a "waste" in your body. it lines the cavities and seals in mositure as well as provide a layer of protection with antibodies. in your stomach it is your "waste" that keeps acid from digesting you alive.

a womans vagina is covered with a mucus secretion.....

[microbiologist]

all the so called proof and science is a bunch of balony since it can only supress a symptom.That doesn't do anything.At least homeopathy has contributed to cure and yes there is proof.

The Trifling Jester.

[microbiologist]

an excess of mucus.Have your facts correct.You only have theories and foolish arguments that does nothing to natural science.Stop wasting time and go do some reading for a change.Maybe you will learn something or even do some sort of research study on homeopathy or even colon irrigation.Imagine the director of Advanced Naturals and specializes in Internal Medicine and Gastroenterology and has a fleet of doctors backing up natural medicine and colon irrigation and have none a series of tests and studies,they know the same and even more about medical science than any of you especially specializing in colonoscopy and they are pro colon hydrotherapy.I tell you that you all have no proof or no knowledge whatsoever about any natural science or therapy.You talk garbage and makes no sense.Do you enjoy talking up in your rectums all day and feeling good about it? It really doesn't do anything to the natural practice you know.Jeez

[microbiologist]

You all THINK that there is no evidence but there IS!!

[microbiologist]

You're just too brainwashed to even seek some studies.

[The Trifling Jester]

all the so called proof and science is a bunch of balony since it can only supress a symptom.That doesn't do anything.At least homeopathy has contributed to cure and yes there is proof.

The Trifling Jester.
Merely signing my name to your posts will not increase their validity. You will also need to add eloquence, wisdom, and pizzazz.

Flattered by your attempt at imitation,
The Trifling Jester (TM)

[The Trifling Jester]

You all THINK that there is no evidence but there IS!!

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Best wishes ;) ,
The Trifling Jester

[microbiologist]

don't flatter yourself I was pointing it out the statement to you.

[microbiologist]

how come there are MD's that say there is enough evidence and proof that homeopathy works that other MD's don't like you.Hmm.Maybe you should ask the population that uses homeopathy and listen to what they have to say about the results.Not your opinions about it.

[microbiologist]

Merely signing my name to your posts will not increase their validity. You will also need to add eloquence, wisdom, and pizzazz.

Flattered by your attempt at imitation,
The Trifling Jester (TM)


Wisom and eloquence? Where ? By merely posting nonsense at something that you don't have a clue about?I guess because you have an audience thats why and yes this is a medical forum with time wasters babbling about evidence , proof etc.I said it before,I think if you sat in a lab and observed the tests being demonstrated and proven infront your eyes you will still have something negative to say because you have one vision about health.Simply because thats all you know.So you will continue to badger other career types like a little immature girl and your minions just so that you will be able to sleep at night.Ohh I am so offended.I guess the same will happen to you if you go on a naturopathic forum.At least I don't care what you have to say because it makes no sense.You sound like the devil himself trying to provoke someone or even aggravate a situation.Maybe you should work as "Mr.Evidence" and try to prove that God Exists or even evidence that Moses actually parted the red sea.Or are you just an athiest or a know it all? More like a Trifling Jacka** to me.

Much Love

[The Trifling Jester]

how come there are MD's that say there is enough evidence and proof that homeopathy works that other MD's don't like you.Hmm.Just because someone says a treatment works doesn't mean it actually works. There are people who say the voodoo queen of New Orleans has magical powers of healing. Just because some degenerate off of Bourbon St. has anecdotal "evidence" of her cures doesn't mean we should all start praying at the altar of Nana Buluku.

Beware of shrunken heads,
The Trifling Jester

[The Trifling Jester]

Wisom and eloquence? Where ? By merely posting nonsense at something that you don't have a clue about?I guess because you have an audience thats why and yes this is a medical forum with time wasters babbling about evidence , proof etc.I said it before,I think if you sat in a lab and observed the tests being demonstrated and proven infront your eyes you will still have something negative to say because you have one vision about health.Simply because thats all you know.So you will continue to badger other career types like a little immature girl and your minions just so that you will be able to sleep at night.Ohh I am so offended.I guess the same will happen to you if you go on a naturopathic forum.At least I don't care what you have to say because it makes no sense.You sound like the devil himself trying to provoke someone or even aggravate a situation.Maybe you should work as "Mr.Evidence" and try to prove that God Exists or even evidence that Moses actually parted the red sea.Or are you just an athiest or a know it all? More like a Trifling Jacka** to me.

Much Love

Interesting post. First you say I sound like the devil and have minions, and then you wish me "much love." I now find myself both confused and flattered at the same time.

And while I do find your observations most amusing, I must ask you to try and limit yourself to one reply per post. I realize that my writings provoke thought and have you itching to fire off 5 or 6 responses in succession to discuss my pearls of wisdom. But, it does make things quite difficult to follow, given your proclivity towards stream-of-consciousness rantings.

Smooches,
The Trifling Jester

[microbiologist]

Just because someone says a treatment works doesn't mean it actually works. There are people who say the voodoo queen of New Orleans has magical powers of healing. Just because some degenerate off of Bourbon St. has anecdotal "evidence" of her cures doesn't mean we should all start praying at the altar of Nana Buluku.

Beware of shrunken heads,
The Trifling Jester

Just because someone says a treatment works doesn't mean it actually works? That really doesn't make any sense what you just said.So in other words if "people feel better" or even experience something good,that is nonsense right? How else would it work? Because you said it will work? Foolishness.

Ok so I guess when you give someone a drug and you tell them that it will work ! So if it doesn't work.. and the person does not experience the good results for themselves..I guess you will say.."The patient does not know what he/she is talking about.It did work! Effectively.I have proof that these things work.

You really have to get common sense though.Its not that hard to understand.Something works because people say it works and experiences it for themselves.How else would something work? Even Doctors said so when the patients would return to do examinations they noticed that the blood was clean and the patient felt healthier.When asked why they indicated the supplements used.I was there in the clinic.They were not surprised because they already knew how homeopathy works.

[microbiologist]

Pharmaceutical-grade ginkgo biloba extract (GBE)

Has gone through no less than 40 clinical trials, the majority of which report that it is helpful for people with tinnitus.
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif The evidence is so strong that the German Commission E, responsible for regulating and approving phytomedicinals in Germany, formally endorses the use of Ginkgo biloba for the treatment of tinnitus.
Listed below are details of various clinical trials and studies to prove the efficacy of Gingko Biloba in the treatment of hearing loss, tinnitus and the vertigo symptoms of Meniere's Disease.
[Ginkgo biloba extract (EGb 761).
State of knowledge in the dawn of the year 2000]

Clostre F
Ann Pharm Fr 1999 Jul 57 Suppl 1 1S8-88
Abstract
EGb 761 is a standardized extract of dried leaves of Ginkgo biloba containing 24% ginkgo-flavonol glycosides, 6% terpene lactones such as ginkgolides A, B, C, J and bilobalide
Its broad spectrum of pharmacological activities allows it to be in adequacy to the numerous pathological requirements--hemodynamic, hemorheological, metabolic--which occur in cerebral, retinal, cochleovestibular, cardiac or peripheral ischemia.
Moreover, EGb 761 has direct effects against necrosis and apoptosis of neurons and improves neural plasticity as evidenced in vestibular compensation.
At the molecular and the cellular levels, some evidence obtained with animal models indicates that EGb 761 can interact as a free radical-scavenger and a inhibitor of lipid peroxidation with all, or nearly all reactive oxygen species; maintains ATP content by a protection of mitochondrial respiration and preservation of oxidative phosphorylations; exerts arterial and venous vasoregulator effects involving the release of endothelial factors and the catecholaminergic system.
Moreover, EGb 761 regulates ionic balance in damaged cells and exerts a specific and potent Platelet-activating factor antagonist activity.
Numerous well-controlled clinical studies, realized in Europe and in USA, have revealed that EGb 761 is an effective therapy for a wide variety of disturbances of cerebral function, ranging from cerebral impairment of ischemic vascular origins (i.e. multi infarct dementia), early cognitive decline to mild-to-moderate cases of the more severe types of senile dementias (including Alzheimer's disease) or mixed origins (i.e. psychoorganic origin).
Improvement of signs and symptoms have been demonstrated for cognitive functions, particularly for memory loss, attention, alertness, vigilance, arousal and mental fluidity.
Some clinical studies have showed that EGb 761 treatment may improve the capacity of geriatric patients to cope with the stressful demands of daily life. The explanation is a dual stress-alleviating action of EGb 761: its facilitates behavioral adaptation to stress and may decrease the excess of cortisol release to stress.
Moreover, EGb 761 shows a specific neuroprotective effects to hippocampic cells. Regarding the visual system, experimental studies have shown that EGb 761 can inhibit or reduce the functional retinal impairments resulting from ischemia-reperfusion, photo-degeneration, diabetic or proliferative retinopathy.
Clinical studies have revealed that EGb 761 may be useful in treating visual activity impairments and damages to the visual field associated with chronic cerebrovascular insufficiency, senile macular degeneration and diabete mellitus.
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif Regarding the vestibular and auditory systems, experimental and clinical studies have shown the efficacy of EGb 761 in treating hypoacusis, tinnitus, vertigo, dizziness and other symptoms of vestibulocochlear disorders.
At least, adequatly controlled studies in patients with peripheral arterial occlusive disease have provided good evidence for therapeutic efficacy in intermittent claudication. The future of EGb 761 is undoubtedly in the promise in slowing the progression of Alzheimer's disease.
Indeed, two recent american clinical studies have shown the efficacy and safety of EGb 761 in patients with mild to severe Alzheimer's disease and multi-infarct dementia. In clinical terms, progression of symptoms was delayed by approximately 6 months. Actually new clinical studies are undertaken in USA and Europe. At the dawn of the third millenium (the Sixth for Ginkgo biloba) we propose a state of art about it.
Fortschr Med Orig 2001 Jan 11;118(4):157-64 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Ginkgo special extract EGb 761 in tinnitus therapy. An overview of results of completed clinical trials]

Holstein N.
Facharzt fur Hals-Nasen-Ohrenheilkunde, Allergologie, Chirotherapie, Stimm- und Sprachstorungen, Neuensteinstrasse 14, D-76227 Karlsruhe.
In a systematic search of the literature 19 clinical trials investigating the effects of tinnitus treatment with Ginkgo biloba special extract EGb 761 were identified and evaluated.
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif The results of eight controlled studies on tinnitus due to cerebrovascular insufficiency or labyrinthine disorders of varying genesis for the most part show a statistically significant superiority of treatment with the Ginkgo biloba special extract EGb 761 as compared with placebo or reference drugs applied of periods of one to three months.
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif Open studies, too, some involving large numbers of patients, revealed appreciable improvements under ginkgo treatment. Therapeutic success was not directly correlated with either the genesis or the duration of tinnitus.
However, investigations of prognostic factors revealed that short-standing disorders have a better prognosis, so that better results can be expected from early-onset treatment.
The tolerability of Ginkgo biloba special extract EGb 761 was excellent, and in this respect the controlled clinical trials revealed little difference between drug-treated and control groups.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial
PMID: 11217680 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Ginkgo biloba for tinnitus: a review

E. Ernst & C. Stevinson
A number of uncontrolled (e.g .4-8 ) or controlled but non-randomised clinical trials (e.g .9 , 10 , 11 ] suggest that the regular medication with ginkgo biloba is effective in the treatment of tinnitus. As such trials are open to bias and tend to over-estimate the effect size, 12 this systematic review was aimed at summarising all randomised controlled trials on this subject.
Methods
Computerized literature searches were performed to identify all randomised controlled trials of ginkgo biloba for tinnitus. Databases included Medline, Embase, and the Cochrane Library (all from their respective institution to June 1998). The search items used were ginkgo biloba, gingko, ginkgo, tinnitus, and hearing disorders. In addition, manufacturers of ginkgo biloba preparations were asked to contribute published and unpublished material.
Our own extensive files were also searched for relevant publications. The bibliographies of the studies and reviews thus retrieved were scanned for further relevant publications. There were no restrictions on the language of publication.
Trials were included if performed on patients with tinnitus treated with ginkgo biloba and compared to placebo or another active medication in the control arm.
Studies not performed on ginkgo biloba mono-therapy or those using homeopathic dilutions of ginkgo biloba [e.g .11 ] were excluded. Trials performed on patients whose primary complaint was not tinnitus (e.g. cerebral insufficiency 13 or sudden loss of hearing 14 , 15 were also rejected.
Data extraction was performed in a standardized, predefined fashion. Trial outcomes and methodological quality were independently assessed by both authors using a standard scoring system to measure the likelihood of bias .16 Discrepancies in the evaluation of individual trials were resolved by discussion.
Results
Five trials fulfilled the above criteria and were included in this review. Key data from these studies are summarized in Table 1.
Meyer headed a team of 10 French ear, nose and throat specialists to conduct a multicentre trial with two parallel groups 17 and 103 tinnitus patients were included.
Patients were excluded if they had had infections or surgery or had suffered from acute diseases of the ears. Patients were treated with 4 ml of a ginkgo biloba extract per day for 1-3 months or with a placebo. Therapeutic success was evaluated by a severity score of tinnitus symptoms
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif The results suggest that the ginkgo biloba treated group experienced greater and faster improvement of tinnitus symptoms. This trial lacks a clear description of essential methodological details. It does not report any drop-outs and the criteria for evaluation are not clearly defined.
The same author conducted a pseudo-randomised multicentre trial of 259 patients with tinnitus for at least 1 year .18 Patients received either 3 3 ml daily of ginkgo biloba extract or almitrine-raubasine or nicergoline to be taken as normally recommended for a minimum period of 1 month.
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif The number of patients whose symptoms greatly improved or disappeared according to a specialist's evaluation was significantly greater in the ginkgo group than the others.
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif Patients on ginkgo also reported a significantly greater reduction in the severity and discomfort of symptoms and speed at which symptoms disappeared. Some important methodological details are missing from the report of this trial, such as whether the patients and evaluators were blinded and how long treatments lasted. Furthermore, patients were allocated to groups according to the day of the week of the first consultation, so were not properly randomised with the groups having unequal numbers of patients.
Back to tinnitus clinical studies main page (http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/tinnitus_clinical_studies/clinical_studies.htm)
Holgers et al. from Sweden performed a study with several unusual design features .19 They admitted 80 patients with persistent severe tinnitus into an uncontrolled investigation where all patients received 2 14.6 mg daily of ginkgo biloba (Seredrin®).
The 20 patients who seemed to respond positively were recruited for a subsequent cross-over double-blind randomised controlled trials versus placebo with a 1-week washout period in-between. The primary endpoint was patient preference. There was no difference in numbers of patients preferring ginkgo biloba over placebo compared to those making the opposite choice.
This study is original and well conducted; however, it suffers from a small sample size in the controlled phase. Moreover, according to today's knowledge, ginkgo biloba was under-dosed which could account for the negative result.
Morgenstern and Bierman published a trial including 99 patients with chronic tinnitus .20 All patients were initially treated with 3 1 placebo tablets per day for 2 weeks (run-in phase).
Subsequently they were randomised to receive either active medication (3 40 mg ginkgo biloba extract) or placebo for 12 weeks. The audiometrically determined loudness of the tinnitus in the worse affected ear was the primary endpoint.
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif The results show that the loudness of sounds was on average reduced significantly more in the actively treated group compared to placebo.
Juretzek reported an (as yet) unpublished trial to us .21 All 60 patients with chronic tinnitus were treated (for 10 days) with daily injections of 200 mg ginkgo-biloba extract Egb 761.
Subsequently they were randomised to receive either 2 80 mg oral extract or placebo for 3 months. The primary endpoint was the loudness of the tinnitus sounds in the worse affected ear.
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif In the initial uncontrolled phase there was a reduction of 8.5 dB on average. In the randomised phase there was a further improvement in the actively treated group which was significant in comparison to the results obtained with placebo.
Discussion
Randomised controlled trials of ginkgo biloba for tinnitus proved to be quite scarce. Five such studies were identified for this review and collectively, the results suggest that extracts of ginkgo biloba are effective in treating tinnitus. Only one study 19 produced a negative result and that may have been related to the dose being suboptimal (2 14.6 mg extract per day). All other studies used much higher doses (120-160 mg extract per day).
The studies were also heterogeneous in other respects. Endpoints included a rating from the patient of severity of tinnitus or preferred treatment, an evaluation from a specialist and the loudness of tinnitus measured by an audiometer. Four different ginkgo biloba products were used, taken as either tablets, drops or by injection and daily doses were different in each trial. Patients in all trials were described as having chronic or persistent tinnitus but few studies defined criteria for inclusion. The cause or source of tinnitus may have differed within studies as well as between them. The duration of treatment also varied between trials.
Trials were assessed for their methodological quality using the instrument devised by Jadad et al .16 to measure the likelihood of bias. The three critical factors are the description of randomization, blinding, and withdrawals. The most recent study included in the review 21 could not be assessed as so far it has only been published as an extended abstract. One trial 20 received a perfect score and another 19 was scored highly. The other two trials 17 , 18 had lower marks with the former one scoring zero. These scores may to some extent reflect the quality of the paper rather than the trial design, but from the information available, it is not possible to exclude the possibility of bias affecting the results of some trials.
With one exception, the randomised controlled trials in this review were placebo-controlled.
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif Patients taking ginkgo biloba improved significantly more than those on placebo in three of the trials.
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif The lack of difference between ginkgo biloba and placebo in the other placebo-controlled trial 19 has already been discussed with regard to under-dosing patients. In the remaining study which compared ginkgo with two products of the same therapeutic class but with different mechanisms of action, ginkgo biloba produced significantly better results than the other treatments.
If one accepts that ginkgo biloba is an effective treatment for tinnitus, the question arises as to how ginkgo works to relieve tinnitus symptoms..

The pharmacological profile of ginkgo biloba is complex. Its main constituents are ginkgolides and bilobalides, both terpenoids and a range of flavonoids .16 Ginkgo biloba has been shown to have anti-ischaemic, anti-oedema, anti-hypoxic, radical-scavenging and metabolic actions .22 , 23 In addition, it increases disturbed microcirculatory blood flow through increasing the fluidity of blood .24 , 25 The relative importance of these actions in the clinical effects of ginkgo biloba in tinnitus is uncertain at present. A common cause of the symptoms of tinnitus could be a deficiency of blood supply to the inner ear. It is conceivable that most of the above-mentioned pharmacological actions of ginkgo biloba contribute to its clinical effectiveness for this indication.
http://www.alphatinnitusformulas.com/images/arrow7a_red.gif Overall, the results of these trials are favourable to gingko biloba as a treatment for tinnitus, but a firm conclusion about its efficacy is not possible. At present, the body of evidence is small. More trials are needed to test the therapeutic value of gingko biloba for relieving tinnitus. Furthermore, it is important that such trials are methodologically rigorous and consistent in terms of the endpoints being measured, the doses used and the classification of patients.
References
Hazell, J.W.P. & Jastreboff, P.J. 1990 Tinnitus. I: auditory mechanisms: a model for tinnitus and hearing impairment. J. Otolaryngol. , 19, 1 5.
Axelsson, A. & Ringdahl, A. 1989 Tinnitus: a study of its prevalence and characteristics. Br. J. Audiol. , 23, 53 62
Anderson, G. 1997 Prior treatments in a group of tinnitus sufferers seeking treatment. Psychosom. , 66, 107 110.
Ziegler, E. 1969 Zur medikamentösen Behandlung nichtenzündlicher Erkrankungen des Innenohres und Gleichgewichtsapparates. Zschr. F. Allgemieinmedizin , 45, 927 929.
Artieres, J. 1978 Effets therapeutiques du tanakan sur les hypacousis et les acouphernes. Lyon Mediterrannee Medical, 14, 2503 2515.
Gananca, M.M., Albernaz, P.L.M., Caovilla, Y.I.I. 1986 Gingko biloba no tratamento da vertigem e outros sintomas labirinticos. Folha Medica, 93, 225 227.
Sprenger, F.H. 1986 Gute Therapieergebnisse mit Ginkgo biloba. Ärztl. Praxis , 38, 938 940.
Coles, R. 1988 Trial of an extract of Ginkgo biloba (EGB) for tinnitus and hearing loss. Clin. Otolaryngol. , 13, 501 502.
Claussen, E. & Claussen, C.F. 1981 Eine Vergleichstudie zur Behandlung von Schwindel und Tinnitus mit Rökan. In: Verhandlung der Gesellschaft für Neurootologie und Aequilibriometrie, pp. 471 482. Edition M+P: Hamburg, Neu-Isenburg.
Natali, R. 1992 Cross-over-Studie zur Behandlung der vertebro-basilären Insuffizienz mit Rökan. In: Rökan (Diehm, C. & Müller, D., eds), pp. 224 228. Springer-Verlag, Berlin.
Von Wedel, H., Calero, L., Walger, M et al. 1995 Soft-laser/ ginkgo therapy in chronic tinnitus. Adv. Oto-Rhino-Laryngol. , 49, 105 108.
Schulz, K.F., Chalmers, J., Hyes, R.J et al. 1995 Empirical evidence of bias. JAMA, 273, 408 412.
Vorberg, G. 1985 Ginkgo biloba extract (GBE): a long-term study of chronic cerebral insufficiency in geriatric patients. Clin. Trials J. , 22, 149 157.
Dubreuil, C. 1986 Essai therapeutique dans les surdites cochleaires aigues. La Presse Medicale, 15, 1559 1561.
Jadad, A.R., Moore, R.A., Carrol, D et al. 1996 Assessing the quality of reports of randomised clinical trials: is blinding necessary? Contr. Clin. Trials , 17, 1 12.
Jadad, A.R., Moore, R.A., Carrol, D et al. 1996 Assessing the quality of reports of randomised clinical trials: is blinding necessary? Contr. Clin. Trials , 17, 1 12.
Meyer, B. 1986 Etude multicentrique randomisée à double insuface au placebo du traitement des acouphènes par l'extrait de Ginkgo biloba. La Presse Médicale, 15, 1562 1564.
Meyer, B. 1986 Etude muticentrique des acouphenes. Ann. Oto-Laryng. , 103, 185 188.
Holgers, K.-M., Axelsson, A., Pringle, I. 1994 Ginkgo biloba Extract for the Treatment of Tinnutus. Audiology, 33, 85 92.
Morgenstern, C. & Biermann, E. 1997 Ginkgo-Spezialextrakt Egb 761 in der Behandlung des Tinnitus aurium. Fortschr. Med. , 115, 7 11.
Juretzck, W. 1998 Zusmmenfass und der Ergebnisse einer plazebokontrollierten Doppelblindstudie zur Therapie des Tinnitus mit dem Ginkgo-Extrakt Egb 761. Schwabe Arzneimittel Internal Report 21.7.
Defeudis, T.V. 1991. Ginkgo Biloba Extract (Eginkgo Biloba 761): Pharmacological Activities and Clinical Application. Elsevier, Paris.
Reuter, H.D. 1995 Ginkgo biloba: botany, constituents, pharmacology, and clinical trials. Br. J Phytother. , 96, 3 20.
Ernst, E. & Matrai, A. 1986 Hämorheologische in-vitro Effekte von Ginkgo biloba . Herz Kreislauf, 18, 350 360.
Ernst, F.D. 1991 Wirkung eines Ginkgo-biloba Spezialextraktes auf die gestörte Mikrozirkulation. Münch Med. Wschr. , 133 (Suppl.), S51 S53.
Ginkgo biloba for antidepressant-induced sexual dysfunction.

Cohen AJ, Bartlik B
J Sex Marital Ther 1998 Apr-Jun 24:2 139-43
Abstract
In an open trial ginkgo biloba, an extract derived from the leaf of the Chinese ginkgo tree and noted for its cerebral enhancing effects, was found to be 84% effective in treating antidepressant-induced sexual dysfunction predominately caused by selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs, N = 63).
Women (n = 33) were more responsive to the sexually enhancing effects of ginkgo biloba than men (N = 30), with relative success rates of 91% versus 76%.
Ginkgo biloba generally had a positive effect on all 4 phases of the sexual response cycle: desire, excitement (erection and lubrication), orgasm, and resolution (afterglow). This study originated from the observation that a geriatric patient on ginkgo biloba for memory enhancement noted improved erections.
Patients exhibited sexual dysfunction secondary to a variety of antidepressant medications including selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRIs), serotonin and nonrepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (SNRIs) monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOIs), and tricyclics.
Dosages of ginkgo biloba extract ranged from 60 mg qd to 120 mg bid (average = 209mg/d). The common side effects were gastrointestinal disturbances, headache, and general central nervous system activation. The article includes a discussion of presumed pharmacologic mechanisms, including effects on platelet activating factor, prostaglandins, peripheral vasodilatation, and central serotonin and norepinephrine receptor factor modulation.

[swimguy23]

i dont believe in naturopathy.....i have read about it and researched it and have come to my own conclusions.....why is it if my opinions are different from yours i have been "brain washed", havent "read the right stuff" or better yet i will soon see the cult of underground medical doctors secretly planning to overturn all of western medicine and my MD will be useless. Understand that you might believe something but I will never prescribe random uncontrolled dosages of herbs to my patients. You can say whatever you want but again the reading I have done about it does not seem safe enough. Yes there are medications that can cause severe side effects but at least research is aimed to identify those side effects.

[The Trifling Jester]

So in other words if "people feel better" or even experience something good,that is nonsense right? How else would it work? Because you said it will work? Foolishness.
...
Something works because people say it works and experiences it for themselves.How else would something work?

Your homework:

Read your post that I've quoted.

Then read this link: http://arthritis.about.com/od/arthritistreatments/g/placebo.htm?iam=metaresults&terms=water+pill

Then read your post again.

If you find yourself in need of additional remedial reading please feel free to ask for help.

Always happy to lend a helping hand,
The Trifling Jester

[teratos]

how come there are MD's that say there is enough evidence and proof that homeopathy works that other MD's don't like you.Hmm.Maybe you should ask the population that uses homeopathy and listen to what they have to say about the results.Not your opinions about it.

Because some MDs don't know how to read studies.

You can find MDs who practice all kinds of quackery. I'm not looking for opinion, here. I'm looking for fact, scientific data, not anecdotal reports or ancient chinese scrolls. G

[microbiologist]

yes but you all don't have facts,just theories because facts don't keep changing.Its not constant.

[teratos]

yes but you all don't have facts,just theories because facts don't keep changing.Its not constant.
Correct. In many cases the sample size isn't large enough to weed out some of the ill effects of medications. Views on varios topics change as new technology and larger studies come available. At least we can say we were wrong about some things. And if all I have is theory, what is it that you have. LOL. You just killed your own arguements. You can't even come up with any decent studies that even begin to explain ill effects of your treatments or efficacy. You have nothing but empty statements. It's easy to stay constant when you blindly follow this garbage, with no serious data. You need to be deprogrammed. G

[microbiologist]

I agree I am not the right person to come up with decent enough studies after all I am an accountant not a health professional.I don't think this is garbage though because you all haven't proven that these things are harmful to your body.You do however have proof that drugs can harm your body though and many studies behind it! LOL

[AUCMD2006]

you are 100% right. homeopathy is 100% safe...mainly because you are taking diluted potions that are inert and have no effect on you.

naturapthy is unproven one way or the other. we have proof that medications have side effects because of good studies, somthing natural remedies are reluctant to embrace.

you are an accountant you should know that data is interpreted from your own client's point of view. my wife is an accountant, she can make 2+2=5 if she puts in the right spreadsheet

data can be twisted to represtent what you want unless there are ouside auditors involved...our auditors are double blind studies, not perfect nor foolproof but as good as it gets.

many of the things we do are not that different than herbalists. many of our most potemnt drugs such as tamoxifen, aspririn, most antibiotics, hormones, insulin came from using plants, animals (ie horse urine for estrogen, horse serum for anti venom), and now bacteria to produce these chemicals. the difference is that we require proof and studies that show that they work and what the likely side effects are to educate patients. will a 5 year study show all side effects 20 years down the road? no but at the very least we are continually looking for the safety of these things and are held accountable for every possible outcome even when its not directly the medication. recall fen fen? billions paid out to settle lawsuits and now it emerges that the drugs didn't cause heart attacks, wonder how much the drug company will recover from those suits payed out? latest one is the cox-2 debacle, off market due to a study, now i read another one that included more sample size with medicaid data that doesn't show adverse effects.

placebo effect is strong, maybe strong enough for someone to beleive that sticking coffee and water in the bum will make your bowels work better and if that takes one complaint off the laundry list that these people come to the office with i'l add the cream and sugar to the enema...

[swimguy23]

all these arguments coming from an accountant.....im sure your college intro to biology course gave you enough insight to comprehend legitimate studies:rolleyes:

[teratos]

I agree I am not the right person to come up with decent enough studies after all I am an accountant not a health professional.I don't think this is garbage though because you all haven't proven that these things are harmful to your body.You do however have proof that drugs can harm your body though and many studies behind it! LOL

Sometimes what you think and what happens in reality are 2 different things. Happens in medicine all the time. That's why we harp on studies so much. Nothing happens in medicine without studies. I will be the first to admit the system isn't perfect. There are times, such as the Vioxx thing, when good data is suppressed or manipulated. I don't like that at all. Makes me look bad sometimes (Vioxx) G

[Soon2BDoc]

these herbal drugs may be able to work, but.....
why don't they just study the extracts and purify it?
then they will find the real source.
nutrition is an important aspect of health nonetheless. i am studying how it is what regenerates our cells, even neurons that have been damaged, and possibly figure out the exact diet needed to live a purely healthy life so you never have to go to the doctor again or to actually cure certain diseases....In that way, ND's may not be in such a bad field afterall. it is only in its beginning stages. eventually they may get to start doing research. there are research journals purely about nutrition and its relevance to disease and with ND knowhow, that could really boost the ND up at the level of MD's if they start studying these herbal extracts in more detail. in that sense, the extracts will be the medication...no more chemicals would be needed if they finally figure it out.

for instance take reservatrol, which is found in grapeseed oils....or even in blueberries....it has cox inhibitor properties. olive oil also has these properties because it initiates the pathway to produce the effect of cox inhibitors.

The only thing we need to do really is to stop inhibiting cox-2...because it doesnt inhibit PGD2 and TXA, (because that is what COX-1 does), which is what is causing problems (PGD2 kills cells and TXA isn't so great either)--although the byproduct of PGD2 is able to reduce cox levels in disease, the TXA will give you cardiovascular problems and effects are multiplied when you prevent other prostaglandins from forming (as we probably learned in biochem when we were talking about the AA pathway). so yes these chemicals can kill and we just take it like its water not knowing the full profile of what it can really do. NSAIDS are great because they inhibit both COX1 and COX2 so you aren't leaving any prostaglandin to be too heavily secreted. (since they are able to be shunted supposedly), but still they can also prevent cells from regenerating, because there is no PGE2 able to form...it stops it. (then again there's controversy on whether it is that beneficial...i think it is..i saw much more research on it that it is very cytoprotective.

cox 2 is amazing because it elevates PGE2, which can protect cells. and guess where pge2 ultimately originates from? LIPIDS that initiate the AA pathway! so its all FOOD and NUTRITION based---hence the importance of nutrition, food, and the study of herbs in medicine...therefore ND's importance is underestimated by the MD 'bigwigs'. We can use our surroundings and also the knowledge of our endogenous pathways to be healthy rather than believe in a drug we know nothing about.

COX-2 levels are elevated in cancers, so its great to inhibit it to prevent cell growth...maybe you want to inject that stuff in particular areas like tumors and make sure it doesnt get outside that area, but as for taking it systemically-its not so great (you know, the thromboses and all). That is why NSAIDS are great to take for cancer (but then the GI effects aren't all that great either....but to kill the bad cells, that may be necessary). it's very recent. maybe to colon CA patients there could be clinical trials in giving them NSAIDs to see what happens in terms of their outcome, maybe they are going on right now.

Truly...ND may be the next wave of the future with the current research going on....when they said take 2 aspriins and call me in the morning...or soon it will be take two cups of blueberries, that's probably all we need in life ;) (just kidding--to an extent).

[teratos]

The extracts ARE chemicals. In every way, herbs used by naturopathic physicians ARE drugs. They have effects, side effects, interactions etc. If you find the active compound in the herb, synthisize it, standardize it and market it, it is no longer a naturopathic remedy. Now it is a drug. Interestingly, the same people who would counsume the parent compound in the form of a non-standardized, adulterated plant extract would not take a synthesized, standardized, and studied drug.

[Soon2BDoc]

if ND's knew enough about those naturopathic compounds...which will be a few years from now...they could figure out exactly the side effects of these herbal remedies...then those herbs would then be fda approved and drugs...so does that put those poor ND's out of business to MD's after they did all that work to make herbs into adequate drugs with known side effect profile? why take it away from them after they figure it out? shouldn't they at that point be considered at an MD level but more on a biochemical nutritional level (glorified nutritionist, but still know highly complex innerworkings of food and food combinations)?

[dt]

The extracts ARE chemicals. In every way, herbs used by naturopathic physicians ARE drugs. They have effects, side effects, interactions etc. If you find the active compound in the herb, synthisize it, standardize it and market it, it is no longer a naturopathic remedy. Now it is a drug. Interestingly, the same people who would counsume the parent compound in the form of a non-standardized, adulterated plant extract would not take a synthesized, standardized, and studied drug.


Is the synthesized drug exactly atom-to-atom identical to unadulterated plant compound? I dont think so. But if so, I dont think big drug companies can make any money off them.

I agree the extracts are chemicals. It is possibly not just one extract component that provide the effects. It may be the combination of all of the components of the extract working together that provide the effect(s).

If there was big money to be made selling the plant extracts, then I would think the big drug companies would want a piece of the action and get involved and do the studies. As it is right now I dont think any of the herbal extractors have the deep pockets needed for the studies, the marketing required, and to navigate the political waters.

[Soon2BDoc]

i noticed that even pharmacists are now becoming highly respected in medicine, even above medical doctors, since MD's don't have the time to read up on every drug out there. There are also columns written by pharmacists that are revised by MD's. Pharm D's are now getting the licence to prescribe i've heard. or at least one pharm D was granted that licence by 2 other MD's that said she was adequate to perform that function. It may be taken away eventually, but who knows, they may bump their education level up so that they even know side effect profiles at the doctor level, so then it can be a purely pharmacist job to prescribe drugs, otherwise that privelege will be taken away if they can't keep up with it. I think more and more healthcare pracs are closing in on the MD business these days in terms of being able to prescribe, since they get so much more acquainted while the MD is performing H and P's and making diagnoses and being the ultimate end of the say. I've seen a nurse practitioner who got to act as if she was a primary doctor in FP. She was calling all the shots and writing prescriptions, and making housecalls to geriatric patients. There are also research positions for RN's only, and exclude MD's these days too. We as MD's even consult nutritionists. It's not like MD's can handle everything or can know everything. MD job scopes are getting more and more narrower it seems. It seems like eventually we'll just be considered managerial. Maybe that's what we basically are right now.

[Soon2BDoc]

Is the synthesized drug exactly atom-to-atom identical to unadulterated plant compound? I dont think so. But if so, I dont think big drug companies can make any money off them.

I agree the extracts are chemicals. It is possibly not just one extract component that provide the effects. It may be the combination of all of the components of the extract working together that provide the effect(s).

If there was big money to be made selling the plant extracts, then I would think the big drug companies would want a piece of the action and get involved and do the studies. As it is right now I dont think any of the herbal extractors have the deep pockets needed for the studies, the marketing required, and to navigate the political waters.


maybe check out 'grape seed oil' or 'blueberry extract' or even 'cocoa extract' and their many amazing properties on pubmed. if people knew what it did they'd have a healthy diet to begin wit and never really get prone to these diseases at all, because often its due to nutritional imbalances gone wrong too long,. if you really think about it. your cells die without proper nutrition over time and your body alters itself accordingly and can go in an unhealthy direction. that is where preventative medicine could become one of the bigger specialties, even though it isn't really that big at the moment.
maybe one day ND's will actually get their own residency and be part of some 'nutrition department'..where the nutritionists work under them, and they can be affiliated with bariatric surgery or obesity clinics , anyone who's been in the hospital in general, since they become malnourished, or anyone that can benefit from particular herbs (even in clinical trial studies where they have no other alternatives to survive, such as some cancer patients who want to now refuse chemo or other meds)....(in my imagination for now lol...of course....it could happen).
Podiatrists even have their own residency and can perform surgeries.
optometrists in certain states can even perform laser eye surgeries on their own, much like opthalmologists can.
there are alot of avenues that can occur for ND's. i do see them as very important in at least spiritual or possibly other types of well being for now, but soon it may even become a big part of well being. if you haven't noticed, the western world has many more ailments than foreign countries that don't even exist elsewhere. i would say ND's should be called upon as consults if they had particular training, such as in accupuncture or other forms of holistic medicine. they could then be the 'gods' of that rather than allowing an MD to get a little 6 month training certificate and perform it on and off. that would allow ND's to be specialized and allow for more detailed care for particular aspects of health care. (IMHO).

[Soon2BDoc]

i actually see some of the studies being done and it really is unfortunate that they are only done for 1 year...rather than left to be done over a longer time. plus research funding is plummeting now. probably due to war funding. there are also amazing discoveries out there that go unnoticed and are no longer further looked into. a lot of research could be done on these herbs, i don't see why. i think it is only recently beginning, after they probably got motivated and saw the properties of some of these. take tea for instance. you would think it is bad for you, but now they find it has high antioxidant potential and that if you drink 2 cups a day you reduce your risk for heart disease by manyfold.
i mean if we had some ND out there giving that type of researched advice that most MD's woudn't know about, that could reserve a lot of hospital beds in the future for more serious cases and allow for a more healthier population of people. the ND's can also be heavily involved in drug development, because most MD's have no clue what these herbs do while ND's have actually had the chance to observe the effects and improvements in their practices most likely. there really is a place for them in many ways, its just they're looked so down upon, due to unknown properties of herbs. once they figure that out, then i think being an ND will be something someone would actually be comparable to an MD.
then you wont have anyone taking herbal meds on their own and killing themselves. the ND can also be in charge of side effect profiles. lets say an MD wanted to prescribe herbals, they can just call an ND consult. maybe they even do that now, but they really should, then herbal meds would get a qualified chance...patients could comfortably talk about their secret herbal meds they take because i noticed a lot of MD's make fun of patients who do try herbal meds and the patients would probably be more compliant after talking to an expert herbalist about them.

[teratos]

Is the synthesized drug exactly atom-to-atom identical to unadulterated plant compound?

No, in most cases it isn't. Does that make it worse? In many cases, no. Look at penecillin. We manipulated the molecule to make it last longer, make it less prone to resistance, make the spectrum broader. Can you honestly tell me if you had strep throat you would rather ingest pencillium mold than amoxicillin??

Often, the synthesized compound has less toxicity and side effects than the parent compound...aspirin vs. willow bark.

I still think you are better off with a standardized, unadulterated active compound...Flomax vs. Saw Palmetto (both alpha blocker), Lexapro vs. St. John's Wort etc. G

[teratos]

i noticed that even pharmacists are now becoming highly respected in medicine, even above medical doctors, since MD's don't have the time to read up on every drug out there. There are also columns written by pharmacists that are revised by MD's. Pharm D's are now getting the licence to prescribe i've heard. or at least one pharm D was granted that licence by 2 other MD's that said she was adequate to perform that function. It may be taken away eventually, but who knows, they may bump their education level up so that they even know side effect profiles at the doctor level, so then it can be a purely pharmacist job to prescribe drugs, otherwise that privelege will be taken away if they can't keep up with it. I think more and more healthcare pracs are closing in on the MD business these days in terms of being able to prescribe, since they get so much more acquainted while the MD is performing H and P's and making diagnoses and being the ultimate end of the say. I've seen a nurse practitioner who got to act as if she was a primary doctor in FP. She was calling all the shots and writing prescriptions, and making housecalls to geriatric patients. There are also research positions for RN's only, and exclude MD's these days too. We as MD's even consult nutritionists. It's not like MD's can handle everything or can know everything. MD job scopes are getting more and more narrower it seems. It seems like eventually we'll just be considered managerial. Maybe that's what we basically are right now.

The problem with having pharmacists prescribe is that they aren't trained to diagnose. I agree, pharmacists know more about medications than me. I get calls about interactions etc. How can you trust a pharmacist to properly diagnose what is wrong? Some may be able to. Most probably can't.

[Soon2BDoc]

exactly. because a pharmacist tried to tell me the doc prescribing the meds was wrong , however the pharmacist was actually wrong....he thought the patient shoudln't be on 2 anticoags at once, little did he know that that's the standard protocol. pharm schools do not teach to that level. i dont understand why they are doing that either; however, there are exceptional pharmacists out there that know their stuff well, possibly that is how they would get such an 'honor' to prescribe. i went to a pharmacist and she was excellent..most regular docs don't know the difference between sudafed sinus or anti-histamines vs. allergy meds, or what have you. they'll just tell you whatever comes close. the pharmacist knew what symptoms and exactly what type of med would be best. they are good mostly for the OTC drugs i would guess. Also hopefully they at least teach them what the side effects are. I would guess that is the basis of pharm school, especially if a Pharm D. but then again i have no idea what level of depth... they learn in there. i just remember they did a lot of organic chem.

i knew a heme/onc nurse who was really good at her judgement of what pain killers to take because she had been doing that for 20 years. i would say after so much experience, they can possibly gain authorization or some type of seniority to be able to get certain prescribing priveledges in the hospital. maybe she was even a nurse practitioner too--which I'm not sure, but I believe they get Rx priveledges but possibly under another doc's signature. of course still residents had to approve it, even though she's probably way more experienced. i would think the level of experience could determine if they can or can't rx drugs and they probably should or may have to take some sort of a test to make sure they are at that level (hopefully at the USMLE level).

[Soon2BDoc]

one point to keep in mind is that ND's take care of a lot of preventative medicine in the first place...so with them they could end alot of diseases to begin with without the need for any heavy meds with difficult side effects...not necessarily through herbal meds but through their other alternative studies, such as nutrition, yoga, tai chi, aruveda, qigong (which some have seen cancer cures to) or whatever those other spiritual type martial arts are out there. other things are aromatherapy, or other things to alleviate pain or even mental disorders or stress and anxiety that lead to diseases such as high blood pressure.

its amazing that they found that certain foods prevent certain diseases---e.g. certain spices in the diet have made particular populations less prone to diseases that you see in the U.S. that is the type of thing that ND's could do for the population. They could start creating dietary regimens for patients early on, so that they don't get certain diseases.

nonetheless, i do agree that along with herbal meds, regular meds can really cause some severe and scary side effects, especially something like ginko bilboa. i just think that all practitioners in healthcare need to work together to prevent these things. you see people going to chiropractors rather than the neurologist--of course its usually due to money issues...they'll go to their naturopath over a doctor if they see they found something worked regardless.
if MD's could incorporate them somehow into the system, and make it so that they know each other's fields to an extent, to the point of consultation, then they could have a specific place rather than be a complete alternative that may possibly be dangerous. then patients would be appropriately cared for, rather than go to one to hide out from the other's philosophy, i would think.

[dt]

No, in most cases it isn't. Does that make it worse? In many cases, no. Look at penecillin. We manipulated the molecule to make it last longer, make it less prone to resistance, make the spectrum broader. Can you honestly tell me if you had strep throat you would rather ingest pencillium mold than amoxicillin??

Often, the synthesized compound has less toxicity and side effects than the parent compound...aspirin vs. willow bark.

I still think you are better off with a standardized, unadulterated active compound...Flomax vs. Saw Palmetto (both alpha blocker), Lexapro vs. St. John's Wort etc. G

I guess I didnt put my point across well...

I tried to say that there is not enough money in it for the drug companies if all they did was produced the exact molecule. And also, there is not enough money made by the herbal companies. Thus, no money, no trials/studies.

[teratos]

I guess I didnt put my point across well...

I tried to say that there is not enough money in it for the drug companies if all they did was produced the exact molecule. And also, there is not enough money made by the herbal companies. Thus, no money, no trials/studies.

I don't think that is entirely true. The first statin, lovastatin (I think) was isolated from Red Rice Yeast. You can buy this, and it does, in fact, lower cholesterol. Of course, it has the same side effect profile as lovastain (the prescription). The problem with the "wild" form is that you don't know how much lovastatin you are getting in each capsule. It likely varies significantly from capsule to capsule and batch to batch. So, what the drug company did was isolate lovastatin (no change to the molecule), did clinical trials, quantified the number of people with liver enzyme elevation, myopathy, etc. Quantified the effect of the drug on heart disease and stroke. Quantified the degree of cholesterol lowering by dose in milligrams, and figured out what dose would be as safe as possible, while delivering the promised effect. Herbs can do none of that, because the problem is delivering a fixed amount. You can't take Red Rice Yeast, and know you are getting 20 mg of lovastatin in each pill. There is just one example of a molecule stolen from nature, synthesized unchanged, and sold for millions if not billions in profit.

Let's look at it another way. Lovastatin can be obtained in both Red Rice Yeast, and a tablet in 20, 40 and 80mg. Buy the Red Rice Yeast and how do you, know how much you are taking? You don't. How do you know when to titrate up or down? You don't. Which would you give to your mother?

[Soon2BDoc]

that is why ND's and MD's need to work together.

actually more ND's need to try to go into research too, and discover a few things about these herbs before putting them into practice.
some of these compounds deserve a chance to be studied. i've noticed that some ND's are actually going into research..where they're more welcome and doing these studies finally. im sure more clinical trials are being done these days. it seems to be getting bigger, if you check into some of the nutritional type journals, to figure out how certain foods evolved and how they correlate to the decline or the nonexistance of disease in certain populations. maybe some asian dishes could be found to reduce the risk of certain diseases....that you find in other populations that don't eat those particular foods or spices. i think studying our diets can potentially elucidate some really great drugs.

most of the 'food ' medicine is mainly preventative. of course MD's are always there to prescribe the high potency drugs with heavy side effect profiles for the actual cure. ND's are mainly preventatitve and used for smaller level ailments.

[Soon2BDoc]

there is not enough money made by the herbal companies. Thus, no money, no trials/studies.

there are big bucks made by herbal companies. check out herbalife.com or one of their sites. they are backed by nobel laureate PHD's and a panel of MD's. it's just that they don't advertise that publicly. you see all the ads on the web. a lot of people buy them and avoid doctors at all costs. some people say that if they drink their shakes or other drink mixes that their alzheimers is cured (because of L-citrulline and L-arginine, which increases the Nitric oxide levels somehow, which in turn elevate blood flow)...there are all these testimonials, etc. They even have a new diet pill that contains as much caffeine as a cup of coffee, rather than putting in ephedrine which i believe was banned, in order to increase energy levels. they're using herbal properties all over the place. they just dont advertise much and keep it hush hush. you only see poeple selling them through systems much like Amway is sold---the sell at-home or work at home type franchises.

[teratos]

that is why ND's and MD's need to work together.

actually more ND's need to try to go into research too, and discover a few things about these herbs before putting them into practice.
some of these compounds deserve a chance to be studied. i've noticed that some ND's are actually going into research..where they're more welcome and doing these studies finally. im sure more clinical trials are being done these days. it seems to be getting bigger, if you check into some of the nutritional type journals, to figure out how certain foods evolved and how they correlate to the decline or the nonexistance of disease in certain populations. maybe some asian dishes could be found to reduce the risk of certain diseases....that you find in other populations that don't eat those particular foods or spices. i think studying our diets can potentially elucidate some really great drugs.

most of the 'food ' medicine is mainly preventative. of course MD's are always there to prescribe the high potency drugs with heavy side effect profiles for the actual cure. ND's are mainly preventatitve and used for smaller level ailments.

I think that the pharmaceutical companies are already looking at everything the naturopaths use. I'm not sure I'm in favor of taking "preventative medication" for lots of things. All drugs have side effects. Even low dose aspirin has a risk of catastrophic GI bleeding, so you should pick and choose who takes them. G

[Soon2BDoc]

of course you would never be in favor of anything i would be in favor of..that's besides the point...

you don't do this research, but I do...so i do see value in it. and even the researchers I work with are working with ND's who have made some significant discoveries...that you may be seeing coming up in the near future. i know that pharm people don't do much resarch until it has been done by someone else first...they don't do experiments like postdocs or academic medicine would do....after that THEN it goes to the pharm companies. pharm co's are too business minded to have time to think about little herbal experiments. they need ND's to do them at university level at mouse trial level, and then take it to the pharm rep for clinical trials, after they've discovered something.

also please don't tell me that preventatitve medicine is not a field. because it is a real specialty.

ND's would do a lot of good. despite your views. you just refuse to see it in the right way because you fear a hostile takeover.

also i am not even saying to take preventitive medication..im saying take preventatitve foods or nutrition if needed. despite if you personally want it, there are many others that actually would want it. you're not reading it right i dont think. but anyways its not like you're the only one in the world either, so i take that comment with a grain of salt.

not only that, did i recommend nsaids to prevent things? no. i know it is used for alzheimers prevention but it does cause GI effects. naturopaths woulnd' even recommend NSAIDs either, that's not even natural.

i don't get what you really mean overall. i think you didn't understand what I wrote---i am talking preventative nutrition....
you wouln't understand actually. because you have't seen these natural products as I have. and i doubt you'd even take a second look just judging how your personality is toward these things, but i know there are other MD's that would agree. some people may be prone to CA in their family and being advised to eat certain foods or certain types of diets could prevent them from ever getting it...you probably don't get me still....but hopefully someone does.

[teratos]

of course you would never be in favor of anything i would be in favor of..that's besides the point...

Spare me, please. Reviewing previous posts, you will find I agree with you quite a bit. Martyrdom has no place in serious discussion. If you want to take the martyr role, I will simply bow out of the discussion. i have no need to put you down.

you don't do this research, but I do...so i do see value in it.


Really? Oh, I though I did participate in clinical research. Silly me.

they need ND's to do them at university level at mouse trial level, and then take it to the pharm rep for clinical trials, after they've discovered something.


I think the PhD's are doing a fine job. How much basic sciences do ND's get? Is it sufficient to do research at the bench level. MD's certainly don't have adequate training, unless they are MD/PhD's.

also please don't tell me that preventatitve medicine is not a field. because it is a real specialty.


Never said it wasn't. Re-read. I am not really in favor of people taking a bunch of medication for "prevention". I have seen several people who subscribe to the whole naturopathic thing. They take one herb for their kidneys, one for their liver, one to "detoxify" etc.. It is akin to a perfectly healthy person taking lasix, digoxin, etc. As an internist, much of my job is preventative medicine. I prescribe drugs when neccessary, but much of it has to do with lifestyle, like you said. I agree whole-heartedly with you on this topic. We need to spend a lot more time discussing our patients dietary and exercise habits, and bring up food/diet plans that have been shown to reduce the incidence of disease, and there are a plethora of them.

ND's would do a lot of good. despite your views. you just refuse to see it in the right way because you fear a hostile takeover.

Not so much. I think a drug synthesized in a lab, standardized for purity, and studied for effect/adverse reaction/benefit/interaction at various doses beats unstandardized dosing any day of the week. You can hardly come up with any conclusions from your research if you don't adjust for amount of drug and effect of adulterants in a study compound.

a

[Soon2BDoc]

you said: "i have no need to put you down." and also i hope you bow out...i dont need your remarks. also you called me a martyr? what is that all about?

yet you say "Really? Oh, I though I did participate in clinical research. Silly me."

"I think the PhD's are doing a fine job. How much basic sciences do ND's get? Is it sufficient to do research at the bench level. MD's certainly don't have adequate training, unless they are MD/PhD's"

im not talking about clinical research, im talking about specific research related to the AA pathway or anything nutritional. clinical encompases many things, you 're not saying you're part of anything specifically dealing with ND related research.

"I think the PhD's are doing a fine job. How much basic sciences do ND's get? Is it sufficient to do research at the bench level. MD's certainly don't have adequate training, unless they are MD/PhD's"

well with ND ideas, they are able to do that and you don't know anybetter to be saying that. you have never been through ND training, nor looked through what they study, nor ever met one as far as i can tell. they do a lot of research. especially in their own country because the U.S. is very unwelcoming as people like yourself exist. you are thus unable to comment on that.

you don't do preventative medicie in the same way as an ND. so stop off the high horse. i bet a naturopath woul dnot want to be in the same room as somone like yourself or ever want to work with you or your type...i mean look at your comments.


you still didn't read anything i wrote correctly.

you said " I think a drug synthesized in a lab, standardized for purity, and studied for effect/adverse reaction/benefit/interaction at various doses beats unstandardized dosing any day of the week."

did i ever say that unstandardized dosing is okay?? i never said that. what are you even talking about??
i was just saying they are good for nutritional prevention....and you have no clue..they are involved in actual research along with PHD's. they work together and collaborate. they combine knowledge and do research.
stop reading it wrong.
im tired of talking to you...and u have no need to put your points because you're reading my stuff wrong only seeing what you want to see.

[Soon2BDoc]

and yes you try to put me down..as well as the entire naturopath field....or even other MD's...saying i have no right to do research since i dont have a PHD---a lot of PHD's consult MD's because they don't know thte clinical side...PHD's run research companies...all pharmaceuticals are NOT run by MD/PHD's. also ND's can be PHD's too....(ND/PHD)..... there are plenyt of MD's doing research..we work with PHD's, DUH!!!
hello!?! u are not really in research to that level. have you ever written a paper? and it wasn't even with a PHD i bet. so don't comment. i bet the next think you willl say is PHD's aren't qualifed. if no one is qualified then none of us need to be working. you relaly don't make sense to me.
and you never will. i refuse to read your comments.

[teratos]

and yes you try to put me down..as well as the entire naturopath field....or even other MD's...saying i have no right to do research since i dont have a PHD---a lot of PHD's consult MD's because they don't know thte clinical side...PHD's run research companies...all pharmaceuticals are NOT run by MD/PHD's. also ND's can be PHD's too....(ND/PHD)..... there are plenyt of MD's doing research..we work with PHD's, DUH!!!
hello!?! u are not really in research to that level. have you ever written a paper? and it wasn't even with a PHD i bet. so don't comment. i bet the next think you willl say is PHD's aren't qualifed. if no one is qualified then none of us need to be working. you relaly don't make sense to me.
and you never will. i refuse to read your comments.

Wow. I will take this opportunity to bow out. You are truly magical...making something out of nothing. G

[Soon2BDoc]

telling an ND that they are nothing?
but o well. glad you bowed out.
quite frankly i think you are making nothing out of something
cuz ur scared....cuz they're smarter...and more natural.
who wants to take vioxx? who wants to take any of these MD promoted drugs?
guess what?
my aunt developed hypertension when the MD misdiagnosed her and told her she had rheumatoid arthritis.
finally a nephrologist determined that she has gout.....
now she's on allopurinol doing better. but that celebrex that she was given from the first diagnosis gave her HTN! who wan'ts more complications?
not even an MD would want to take these drugs if they could help it,especially one that hasn't been on the market long enough.
i know an MD that would much rather take st johns wort over a real antidepressant. or worry about their dietary needs over taking an ACE inhibitor in diabetes.
u gotta give ND's their due credit somehow.

[swimguy23]

telling an ND that they are nothing?
but o well. glad you bowed out.
quite frankly i think you are making nothing out of something
cuz ur scared....cuz they're smarter...and more natural.
who wants to take vioxx? who wants to take any of these MD promoted drugs?
guess what?
my aunt developed hypertension when the MD misdiagnosed her and told her she had rheumatoid arthritis.
finally a nephrologist determined that she has gout.....
now she's on allopurinol doing better. but that celebrex that she was given from the first diagnosis gave her HTN! who wan'ts more complications?
not even an MD would want to take these drugs if they could help it,especially one that hasn't been on the market long enough.
i know an MD that would much rather take st johns wort over a real antidepressant. or worry about their dietary needs over taking an ACE inhibitor in diabetes.
u gotta give ND's their due credit somehow.

youve got to be "microbiologist".....if youre not you two defintely went to the same school on how to form arguments.....if not then you two should do some genetic testing to make sure you not clones

[Soon2BDoc]

Think if it were you...are you going to want to first try some potent drug from the onset? no way. people know the side effects.
most people would much rather do diet therapy first....as in eat right..
most doctors have no clue about nutrition because most of them have their gut hanging over their belt (or at least my attending in residency did---10 x more obese than his own cardiology patients) and they eat all the cookies that their patients give them for breakfast lunch and dinner and that's it.

when you take some types of statins you get leg pains and rhabdomyolysis..why would you want that? when they get those side effects it scares them and they become noncompliant and they could care less but to die of the major disease they have.

i know plenty of people that dont' care to die as long as they don't have to take medication. you can beg them tat it is best for them , but they still wont comply unless it is completely natural. someone i know is trying to quit smoking and got worse..now smokes a stronger pack at 3 packs a day, because they want to quit without a patch or gum...they don't care now suddenly they're moody and are like "i dont give a D about anything"...really mad at life, and that's their mistake. its just these drugs really do scare people.

im not a microbiologist...but i do have a lot of "B.S". in biology that i learned in college.

i think my philosophy lies in patient comfort at the start---but to an extent...of course when they have a problem you start off small...go through babysteps and then start them on the big guns once they gain your trust. you can't just say here you go have a drug that gives you multiple side effects. no one will go for that. not even me.
of course if they did have a heart attack, then yess big gun city. otherwise if they have high cholesterol, im going to start diet tx first...and nothing to heavy...and me as an MD have no clue about nutrution at the level of some Nutritionist or even maybe ND's. i would refer them...why should i take something out of my scope and mess a patient up.
i just don't like handing out drugs like candy.
we just differ in our methods i guess. neither is right or wrong...i just don't like to jump into big treatments unless absolutely necessary.

[Soon2BDoc]

so what is your arguement swimmer?
i am interested to hear it if you think your school of arguement formation is so much better?

[swimguy23]

you realize dieting failure rate is upwards of 90%.....if all you keep doing is trying to get your pts to diet and theyre not losing weight then by not prescribing them medication you are harming them by not dropping their cholesterol.....yes in an ideal world people would exercise, lose weight, live healthy, be able to run 5 miles, have 6 packs, bench press 180.....but thats just not realistic. most people are just lazy.....like the big fat women that get on the bus at one stop so they can go 3 blocks and get off.....i think the type of people who go to NDs are generally healthier or have healthier habits.....i for one am a fitness freak....if i had the time i would swim every morning, lift, then go to work, come home, do more cardio, abs, etc......i eat ok, i try to eat healthy.....over 50% of the population is overweight or obese so it would make sense that over 50% of physicians are.....your arguments tend to be kinda hollow and attack anyone who doesnt agree with you.....good luck tho tryin to convince the big fat woman she needs to walk.....she just doesnt care

[Soon2BDoc]

u don't seem to get me either.
im saying that if we need a patient that needs nutrition alteration, such as they are obese or whatever and they needed to do that in order to survive another potential heart attack, an MD should be abe to refer them to an ND type person (one that is good in nutrition of course) to give them tips on a good diet to follow...and good tips on foods to eat to protect them from antoher heart attack...rather than rely on the MD to tell them because often they don't know that stuff in that depth...they just give meds. they can also refer that person to a fitness plan (like mild exercise and instructions to not exert, etc).
if they had that direction, they may acrtually do that. but if they don't and they are just told try to exercise more and eat better--like 5 short words, its not going to do them much good.
ones that have had a heart attack should do that especially , and i know they would do anything to prevent it from happening again--most of them at least. if instructed properly im sure they'd know, but often they just have to look it up themselves and sometimes they don't have that initiative either.......if they had this option, it would help them out to live longer than without it. maybe its just me but i think it would work.

and i would say ND's would give advice on alternative treatments to those patients who refuse MD treatments, but then refer to the MD for more deadly ailments that herbals cant handle.im sure an ND would know that much.

it would be nice to know what foods would cure what or prevent what. we don't have that type of expertise in healthcare right now. its like you have to haphazardly look it up on the web or something and u don't always find definitive advice. sometimes appropriate nutrition cures everything. once i thought i had MS. i had to go to a neurologist to get tested and it hurt! they were shocking me literally with electric currents! my leg wouldn't move sometimes so it was scary.., plus both legs were burning really bad. i thought what is going on?
it turns out my labs showed i needed some more calcium. but as to what foods, the doc is not going to be able to say...as to what foods to focus on...anyone can say eat ice cream, etc, whatever...but if i would have just been suggested diet therapy first...rather than a full fledged MS test, i could have been saved $7000 in doctors bills and painful tests.

Who knows if someone's Alzheimers was caused by a lack of a certain nutrient--like L-citruline....so they just took NMDA inhibitors...but that's dangerous...why not try the mild stuff first....then go to the big guns if you dn't see improvement? iv'e seen testimonials that in alzheimers, L-citruline and L-arg works. i actually took that stuff, at that time i could n't think, i wasn't eating well...but when i ate that among other nutrients in some supplementary nutritional drink....i am thinking so much more clearly again.....there are certain elements your body needs. if it improves, why take heavy meds thinking that iwll cure when you've already cured yourself with nutrition? do you see where I am going with that? i would try nutrition first, then drugs, you never know if it is because you weren't eating appropriately, especially when it coems to GI problems, neuromuscular problems or concentration problems, things like that.

[Soon2BDoc]

you realize dieting failure rate is upwards of 90%.....if all you keep doing is trying to get your pts to diet and theyre not losing weight then by not prescribing them medication you are harming them by not dropping their cholesterol.....yes in an ideal world people would exercise, lose weight, live healthy, be able to run 5 miles, have 6 packs, bench press 180.....but thats just not realistic. most people are just lazy.....like the big fat women that get on the bus at one stop so they can go 3 blocks and get off.....i think the type of people who go to NDs are generally healthier or have healthier habits.....i for one am a fitness freak....if i had the time i would swim every morning, lift, then go to work, come home, do more cardio, abs, etc......i eat ok, i try to eat healthy.....over 50% of the population is overweight or obese so it would make sense that over 50% of physicians are.....your arguments tend to be kinda hollow and attack anyone who doesnt agree with you.....good luck tho tryin to convince the big fat woman she needs to walk.....she just doesnt care

well if the pt is 300lb+ , you might just want to go for bariatric surgery....of course they are too sick to go to an ND, but i am talking about people that can benefit...

i know they don't want to walk...who said that i was trying to do that?
im just talking about nutritional habits...and tips they can follow...when they go...if the doc recommends change diet, at least that consult should be available to them so that they can be informed in the least....

im sure they would...and im not talking about dieting either. im talking about cutting down on certain foods like stop eating the wrong food at least (try to cut down on MCdonalds, type stuff or eat more salads--but to a higher level of depth than a doctor can provide), while taking others...especially when they are in a deadly situation..that is when they really do want to take action. if they are not that pressed of course they wont do anything. that means they're healthy. the ones that are in danger--they will do anything to survive.

and also im saying if they are medically in the danger zone yes take that med asap. but if you are normal weight with htn, take diet therapy first to see if it drops.....that's the protocol anyways...im not making that up.

also, its not just weight issues. im talking about other issues too that could also be diet related, where they just go full fledged drugs, especially in psych illnesses. someone i know was on psych meds...but it turned out she needed just to exercise..the psyc meds made her gain too much weight and turned her into a vegetating zombie. that's whats not that great about meds sometimes. they can mess you up more than needed. benefit vs. risk ratio too low.

[Soon2BDoc]

i think terato's arguements are even more hollow....and im not just saying that i truly do think they are. at least mine have a basis.

[AUCMD2006]

i think terato's arguements are even more hollow....and im not just saying that i truly do think they are. at least mine have a basis.

the difference is that teratos and swimguys arguments are based on reality where as your are based on the assumption that patients do as they are told which is a fantasy worthy of a disney movie

patients do get nutrition consults from their MD, its not indepth becauase of time but there are hadnouts, excersice guidelines etc. diabetics get diabetic teaching whcih includes a nutrition consult by a RD.. and any patients in hospital usually get a ND consult....but sad fact is you can't change someone's lifestyle, they gotta want to and unfortunately a cheeseburger tastes better than anything at whole foods...

then there is also socioeconomics and the price of eating healthy is significatly more than just eating crap....

if it was as simple as just sending a patient to a ND then life would be grand but the problem is multifactorial and here on planet earth where i happen to go to school the vast majority of patients just don't want to change and the magic of bariatric surgery carries significant morbidity and mortality associated with it and puts your patient in a lifetime nutritional deficient state.

there is no simple answer. we have to try and tailor each treatment to each patient. if someone is motivated to change then help them, is someone is not loosing weight treat their htn, when they become diabetic treat that, and when they go into heart failure treat that to..

you can't change people only help them the best way they allow you to

[swimguy23]

i agree with some of the stuff you say....my point is just a lot of diets and stuff that show good effects short term dont show the same benefits for prolonged study.....the one that comes to mind is high fiber low fat diet and colon cancer, apparently the relationship is so low its almost negligible but before we were tellin people high fiber low fat diets help prevent colon cancer.....if a patient has alzheimer and then is found to be deficient in l-carnitine and supplements and gets better than it wasnt alzheimers in the first place. im not going to get into a long drawn out debate here about ND vs MD vs DO vs whatever else vs the average person.....i have way too many better things to do.....I think natural remedies that have not been scientifically researched for long studies are harmful and can potentially harm patients. yes some probably work but no they are not the cure all for everything.....im really not going to comment more on this thread only bc i have too many other things to be doing and threads like this just seriously dont ever go anywhere.....i can tell you what tho, i can probably count on my hands how many MD/DO/ND students are in decent shape

[Soon2BDoc]

then again, side effects of the chemical medications--u can't deny those either. its a matter of how bad you need it that matters. u cant just say chemical is all that. even those have even worse side effects. usually you want to avoid them unless the issue is that serious.

i don't think herbal medications are bad though. prescribing vitamin E for alzheimers or C to boost the immune system, or recommending that someone take cold-eeze zinc tablets before they enter a room full of kindergarteners...is herbally medicating right there. Look at cardiologists prescribing Niacin....causing redman's syndrome...but it works, no one knows why..we just Rx it because clinically it shows improvement, low in severe side effects.

Did you ever know that when you prescribe NSAIDs, they do more than just inhibit COX1 and COX2...they inhibit a whole bunch of other things that we don't know about who's effects are still unknown--and only recently being discovered. we just know it works. MD medicine is just as haphazard.

when something works, we don't care, we just take it. herbal or chemical--it doesnt matter. we just want to get better.

[microbiologist]

Soon2BDoc don't even waste your time arguing with these few MD's,you can post clinical studies or even before and after pictures,still in the end they will never agree with anything you say.They don't know anything about natural sciences,they just assume things and say that their arguements are based on reality and ours just assumptions or some disney movie.What I want to know is what reality exactly is he talking about? The reality is that some people prefer to take drugs others prefer natural medicines especially since you get positive results so they keep that lifestyle.I would like them to talk to a real naturopathic physician.The most he will do is laugh at them.He wouldn't waste time anyway behind silly arguments that go no where.Besides there are so many MD's that agree with what you say.I'm not worrying about a stupid forum anyway.They don't really make sense and non of their arguments are even credible.They should just stick to drugs and surgery.Ohh wait I think there is a sale at the downtown pharmacy! Don't forget your shopping carts!
Another thing is that nobody should say that supplements don't make money.Infact its what giving the pharmaceuticals competition.Sad thing is that they don't have to depend solely on prescriptions,insurance companies or even the government to get sales.They do it on their own merit.There are thousands of different kinds of supplements that everybody in the world takes.Especially to upkeep your health and to add years to your life,from toothpastes,dyes,deodarants,seasalts,drinks,dressi ngs,snacks,soaps,shampoos,many different herbs and homepathic medicines,the list goes on.You see them everywhere not just in a pharmacy.I think these few MD's are living in a dream world.LOL.I'm pretty sure if the FDA gets enough brains to start doing heavy research into these natural supplements,homeopathics and herbs since they have worked for millions of people around the world especially when used correctly,then they would see that it makes sense and join with it.Instead they want all the profits for themselves.They don't care about dangerous side effects,suppressing symptoms or even contributing to deaths.This western society would be better off.

[tRmedic21]

Since when does an MD not have the expertise to advise people on a healthy diet and excercise regimen? I mean it's pretty common sense, but even so, I see it done all the time. We daily consel our patients on a healthier lifestyle. And for patients who have had an MI wanting to make their lifestyle better... I don't know a single person who ever had an MI who wasn't told to eat better (and HOW), to excercise more (how hard is this concept?), AND to quit smoking. Yet most never do. Saying things like this:and i know they would do anything to prevent it from happening again--most of them at least. tells me that you don't live in the real world of treating real patients made up of the general US population. If that is truly your experience, then I'd definately say you either have a very limited experience, or you are treating a whole different patient population than the one I've seen my entire medical career. What people say and what people do are quite often 2 different things. I can't count how many people I have seen who were adamant that they were going to change their lifestyle after their first MI... until they got released from the hospital and lit up their first cigarette. When you give someone 3 months and tell them to come back and they haven't lost 5 lbs and they say they eat skinless chicken and salads every day, while walking the stairs at work and parking in the far corner of the Wal-Mart lot... they're lying to you. This is the generation of instant gratification... most people WANT a magic pill that will cure all their ills and make them lose weight while eating pizza and fried chicken for every meal. And many say they don't, they'll work on it themselves... and end up back in three months with absolutely no change.

Also, saying things like this:give them tips on a good diet to follow...and good tips on foods to eat to protect them from antoher heart attack...rather than rely on the MD to tell them because often they don't know that stuff in that depth...they just give meds.tells me your experience with doctors working in hospitals and clinics is also much different than mine. I have never once seen a doctor say, "You had a heart attack. Eat better, excercise more, and take this pill every day." That's simply a ludicrous concept to even suggest, and as a future physician I find it both laughable and insulting at the same time to suggest that we as providers have so little concern for our patients. I haven't (and don't intend to) read this whole phallus-measuring thread, since I think there is room for people of all different medical specialties, so long as everyone knows their roles and limitations.

I just think it's hysterical how militant some people can be. ;)

[Soon2BDoc]

well it is true though. i saw patients feeling under cared for at my past hospital and i had to give them extra advice and they weren'et even my patient. they loved more advice. they were seeking answers and the docs didn't give them the time of day...this was a telemetry rotation..the lady kept having heart attacks but was negative for high troponins and had a cath, but still terrified what is going on with her chest pain. no one addressed it. she didn't even go to providers or get an appointment set up they just told her to go. things like that show me that there are huge loopholes in these hospitals. if you're negative on a test just leave, but no follow up appointments or anything or at least comforted by a doc on other possibilities or dx? just saying oh its not a heart attack dont worry, u can go now to me, is negligence. u need to give them the entire 411 so they can figure out the best thing to do for themselves.



Also the whole food thing is coming true. Take a look at this study:

ω-3 Fatty acids (fish oil) as an anti-inflammatory: an alternative to nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs for discogenic pain† (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCB-4JFF03P-5&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_alid=404844030&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5166&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000006078&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=75682&md5=d89d3f2dfb7c#afn1)


Joseph Charles Maroon MDhttp://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/entities/REcor.gif (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCB-4JFF03P-5&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_alid=404844030&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5166&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000006078&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=75682&md5=d89d3f2dfb7c#cor1), ‡ (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCB-4JFF03P-5&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_alid=404844030&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5166&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000006078&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=75682&md5=d89d3f2dfb7c#fn1), http://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/entities/REemail.gif (maroonjc@upmc.edu), http://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/entities/REemail.gif (hlavackp@upmc.edu) and Jeffrey W. Bost PAC‡ (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCB-4JFF03P-5&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_alid=404844030&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5166&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000006078&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=75682&md5=d89d3f2dfb7c#fn1)

Department of Neurological Surgery, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, Pittsburgh, PA

Received 3 October 2005; accepted 13 October 2005. Available online 10 March 2006.



Abstract

Background


The use of NSAID medications is a well-established effective therapy for both acute and chronic nonspecific neck and back pain. Extreme complications, including gastric ulcers, bleeding, myocardial infarction, and even deaths, are associated with their use. An alternative treatment with fewer side effects that also reduces the inflammatory response and thereby reduces pain is believed to be ω-3 EFAs found in fish oil. We report our experience in a neurosurgical practice using fish oil supplements for pain relief. Methods


From March to June 2004, 250 patients who had been seen by a neurosurgeon and were found to have nonsurgical neck or back pain were asked to take a total of 1200 mg per day of ω-3 EFAs (eicosapentaenoic acid and decosahexaenoic acid) found in fish oil supplements. A questionnaire was sent approximately 1 month after starting the supplement. Results


Of the 250 patients, 125 returned the questionnaire at an average of 75 days on fish oil. Seventy-eight percent were taking 1200 mg and 22% were taking 2400 mg of EFAs. Fifty-nine percent discontinued to take their prescription NSAID medications for pain. Sixty percent stated that their overall pain was improved, and 60% stated that their joint pain had improved. Eighty percent stated they were satisfied with their improvement, and 88% stated they would continue to take the fish oil. There were no significant side effects reported. Conclusions


Our results mirror other controlled studies that compared ibuprofen and ω-3 EFAs demonstrating equivalent effect in reducing arthritic pain. ω-3 EFA fish oil supplements appear to be a safer alternative to NSAIDs for treatment of nonsurgical neck or back pain in this selective group.
Keywords: Spine pain; ω-3 EFA; Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs Abbreviations: ALA, α-Linolenic acid; COX, Cyclooxygenase; DHA, Decosahexaenoic acid; EPA, Eicosapentaenoic acid; EFA, Essential fatty acids; FDA, Food and Drug Administration; IL, Interleukins; LOX, Lipoxygenase; MI, Myocardial infarction; NSAIDs, Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs; PG, Prostaglandin



so now..eat fish oils to end your arthritis as a Rx than NSAIDs...what did i tell you? there is medical science behind this food.

[swimguy23]

well it is true though. i saw patients feeling under cared for at my past hospital and i had to give them extra advice and they weren'et even my patient. they loved more advice. they were seeking answers and the docs didn't give them the time of day...this was a telemetry rotation..the lady kept having heart attacks but was negative for high troponins and had a cath, but still terrified what is going on with her chest pain. no one addressed it. she didn't even go to providers or get an appointment set up they just told her to go. things like that show me that there are huge loopholes in these hospitals. if you're negative on a test just leave, but no follow up appointments or anything or at least comforted by a doc on other possibilities or dx? just saying oh its not a heart attack dont worry, u can go now to me, is negligence. u need to give them the entire 411 so they can figure out the best thing to do for themselves.



Also the whole food thing is coming true. Take a look at this study:

ω-3 Fatty acids (fish oil) as an anti-inflammatory: an alternative to nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs for discogenic pain† (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCB-4JFF03P-5&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_alid=404844030&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5166&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000006078&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=75682&md5=d89d3f2dfb7c#afn1)


Joseph Charles Maroon MDhttp://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/entities/REcor.gif (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCB-4JFF03P-5&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_alid=404844030&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5166&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000006078&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=75682&md5=d89d3f2dfb7c#cor1), ‡ (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCB-4JFF03P-5&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_alid=404844030&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5166&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000006078&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=75682&md5=d89d3f2dfb7c#fn1), http://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/entities/REemail.gif (maroonjc@upmc.edu), http://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/entities/REemail.gif (hlavackp@upmc.edu) and Jeffrey W. Bost PAC‡ (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCB-4JFF03P-5&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2006&_alid=404844030&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=5166&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000006078&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=75682&md5=d89d3f2dfb7c#fn1)

Department of Neurological Surgery, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, Pittsburgh, PA

Received 3 October 2005; accepted 13 October 2005. Available online 10 March 2006.



Abstract

Background


The use of NSAID medications is a well-established effective therapy for both acute and chronic nonspecific neck and back pain. Extreme complications, including gastric ulcers, bleeding, myocardial infarction, and even deaths, are associated with their use. An alternative treatment with fewer side effects that also reduces the inflammatory response and thereby reduces pain is believed to be ω-3 EFAs found in fish oil. We report our experience in a neurosurgical practice using fish oil supplements for pain relief. Methods


From March to June 2004, 250 patients who had been seen by a neurosurgeon and were found to have nonsurgical neck or back pain were asked to take a total of 1200 mg per day of ω-3 EFAs (eicosapentaenoic acid and decosahexaenoic acid) found in fish oil supplements. A questionnaire was sent approximately 1 month after starting the supplement. Results


Of the 250 patients, 125 returned the questionnaire at an average of 75 days on fish oil. Seventy-eight percent were taking 1200 mg and 22% were taking 2400 mg of EFAs. Fifty-nine percent discontinued to take their prescription NSAID medications for pain. Sixty percent stated that their overall pain was improved, and 60% stated that their joint pain had improved. Eighty percent stated they were satisfied with their improvement, and 88% stated they would continue to take the fish oil. There were no significant side effects reported. Conclusions


Our results mirror other controlled studies that compared ibuprofen and ω-3 EFAs demonstrating equivalent effect in reducing arthritic pain. ω-3 EFA fish oil supplements appear to be a safer alternative to NSAIDs for treatment of nonsurgical neck or back pain in this selective group.
Keywords: Spine pain; ω-3 EFA; Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs Abbreviations: ALA, α-Linolenic acid; COX, Cyclooxygenase; DHA, Decosahexaenoic acid; EPA, Eicosapentaenoic acid; EFA, Essential fatty acids; FDA, Food and Drug Administration; IL, Interleukins; LOX, Lipoxygenase; MI, Myocardial infarction; NSAIDs, Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs; PG, Prostaglandin



so now..eat fish oils to end your arthritis as a Rx than NSAIDs...what did i tell you? there is medical science behind this food.

how does this thread keep coming up????? i remember a study, i wouldnt even remember where to look, that omega-3 fatty acids did not provide any gained benefit, other than people who ate them tended to eat a healthier diet but it was not the omega-3 fatty acids that caused relief

[MYMD]

u don't seem to get me either.
i
and i would say ND's would give advice on alternative treatments to those patients who refuse MD treatments, but then refer to the MD for more deadly ailments that herbals cant handle.im sure an ND would know that much.

it would be nice to know what foods would cure what or prevent what. we don't have that type of expertise in healthcare right now.

I really dissagree, I know several ND's that think they can cure almost anything with "Natural" RX. How do you know we do not have "that kind of expertise" in medicine now? How many real PHD in nutrition do you know?
I know several very bright Dieticians, have read several good text books.

Pray tell how does some one really knows how a RX works by observation and how the Patient feels only.

What good is "natural" when it is mixed with crap that is no good, inhibits or is harmful?

Most drugs come from a natural source.

Natural Paths seem to believe this is "Star Trek" and our scientist can rearrange matter to "creat new drugs" that in the end harm us LOL:headspin:

[Soon2BDoc]

the thing is they work with it more than docs. they see results they studied it, we don't study it that in depth. md's dont even deal with it. thats why i say that maybe they should collaborate. fish oil is totally natural. its not mixed with anything.

NSAIDS are not the same as fish oil. nsaids block COX1 and COX-2 which blocks all the good prostaglandins as well as the bad ones that inflame.
fish oil produces prostaglandin E3, which blocks all the pain-causing prostaglandin E2, that way you don't have to deal with COX-2 inhibition which is a bit dangerous, as we have seen in the news.
its in PUBMED and is a valid study. and it states that it is an actual human clinical trial and that people actually wanted to get off the NSAIDS after they realized fishoil helped them. i think its that we lack that in our diets..so theres an imbalance thereby causing chronic pain.

its not really a benefit that im talking about, the article is about pain relieving....when you have arthritis, maybe try fish oil at 1200 like they 're saying...and see what you like best.

we don't realize that the diets we eat may be imbalancing our systems off so we may be lacking certain things...even omega 6 is good for you...things like linoleic acid...i forget what foods..there was also a study on that..having too much of one is bad, while balancing them makes conditions ideal.

well just saying, ND's aren't so stupid as people might want to think. they study this stuff...there are even journals out there specifically about nutrition...that im sure doctors really don't bother to read cuz they care more for mainstream like JAMA, and NEJM studies.

[teratos]

the thing is they work with it more than docs. they see results they studied it, we don't study it that in depth. md's dont even deal with it. thats why i say that maybe they should collaborate. fish oil is totally natural. its not mixed with anything.

NSAIDS are not the same as fish oil. nsaids block COX1 and COX-2 which blocks all the good prostaglandins as well as the bad ones that inflame.
fish oil produces prostaglandin E3, which blocks all the pain-causing prostaglandin E2, that way you don't have to deal with COX-2 inhibition which is a bit dangerous, as we have seen in the news.
its in PUBMED and is a valid study. and it states that it is an actual human clinical trial and that people actually wanted to get off the NSAIDS after they realized fishoil helped them. i think its that we lack that in our diets..so theres an imbalance thereby causing chronic pain.

its not really a benefit that im talking about, the article is about pain relieving....when you have arthritis, maybe try fish oil at 1200 like they 're saying...and see what you like best.

we don't realize that the diets we eat may be imbalancing our systems off so we may be lacking certain things...even omega 6 is good for you...things like linoleic acid...i forget what foods..there was also a study on that..having too much of one is bad, while balancing them makes conditions ideal.

well just saying, ND's aren't so stupid as people might want to think. they study this stuff...there are even journals out there specifically about nutrition...that im sure doctors really don't bother to read cuz they care more for mainstream like JAMA, and NEJM studies.

I recommended fish oil to no less than 5 patients today.

[microphage]

I recommended fish oil to no less than 5 patients today.

I'll start recommending sushi to all my patients...

[teratos]

I'll start recommending sushi to all my patients...

You will find they have a hard time eating enough fish to equal the amount of fish oil in the capsules. It is, of course, a tasty start. G

[k_tanaka]

Yes and no. Yes, Herbs should be treated with respect...No they are not drugs. They come from Natural sources.

Most drugs did come from natural products (plants, yeast, etc.) which were processed to become pharmacy grade. The reason for it to be pharmacy grade is so you will have a purer form of the active ingredient present in that "natural product"....this way the physician can have better control over the dosimetry as well as the effectivity of the compound/medicine.

It is scary to think for a plain naturopath to be diagnosing illnesses.

[azskeptic]

Most drugs did come from natural products (plants, yeast, etc.) which were processed to become pharmacy grade. The reason for it to be pharmacy grade is so you will have a purer form of the active ingredient present in that "natural product"....this way the physician can have better control over the dosimetry as well as the effectivity of the compound/medicine.

It is scary to think for a plain naturopath to be diagnosing illnesses. Here are what many naturopaths think....

http://www.rockrivertimes.com/index.pl?cmd=viewstory&cat=6&id=13356

[k_tanaka]

Man, it would be difficult to argue with the person writing that article as it is clear the person does not understand immunology. it is only through understanding the whole mechanism of the immune system and vaccine development that one will understand how complications can arise and possibly prevent them (minimizing the risk).

If we take out vaccinations, it will be like going back to the 1800's. There will be more tears shed. Dunno tho if she has read that part of history..... I doubt if she's learned epidemiology.