Reapply, or go International ---> Psychiatry?

[graeme2004]

So I decided that I really want to become a psychiatrist.

Looking at the numbers, the odds are against me for getting into an American med school -- not impossible, but not terrific either. I intend to apply to as many American schools as possible in my first round of applications, with international schools as my safeties (Caribbean, probably, tho I've always wanted to live in England or Ireland).

My question is, if I don't get into an American school on the first round, should I reapply in the next application cycle or just go to an international school? Are statistics available for people who reapplied? I'll be 24 when I enter med school if I get in on my first try, so postponing for a year won't matter much. Still, I don't have much work experience, and would likely spend the delay time doing something boring so I can pay the bills. (The things I want to do besides psychiatry don't pay well...it would probably be better to take sabbaticals once I'm fully practicing.)

Furthermore, I know that it's not much of a hassle to get into psychiatry as an IMG. Still, I wonder if I'd be limiting my choices unnecessarily, since I want a residency that includes a strong program in psychotherapy...

As a side note, I'm jumping the gun by about a year on my future in medicine and procrastinating on a project that was due last week. Feel free to make fun of me...

[wolfvgang22]

As far as whether you should re-apply to US schools or not, nobody can guess since we don't know your stats (GPA, MCAT, etc.) Even then, it would just be an opinion, as what you do is a very personal decision that has to be made with a lot of different factors in mind.

If your stats are good enought, don't forget about trying Irish or Australian schools.
Good luck!

[Miklos]

Furthermore, I know that it's not much of a hassle to get into psychiatry as an IMG. Still, I wonder if I'd be limiting my choices unnecessarily, since I want a residency that includes a strong program in psychotherapy...

Don't count on that staying this way until you finish med school.

Psychiatry is slowly, but surely gaining popularity among American medical graduates (probably as it is considered a 'lifestyle' choice.) This past match, they filled 62.8% of spots up from about 50% five years ago. See http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/tables/table6_04.pdf for the data. NB the other 37.2% was not filled only by IMGs; the other ("independent applicants") include DOs, past US grads, Canadians, Fifth Pathway and IMGs.

The top programs are now exclusively AMGs; other strong programs have started to put up barriers to IMGs such as requiring additional US clinical experience within Psychiatry before they'll consider one's application.

So, yes, if you go abroad, you will likely limit your choices.

Miklos

[perspective]

I have a friend who is an IMG and got over 20 interviews at TOP programs(including Harvard and Yale). No one excluded him because of being from a foreign/ Caribbean med school. His USMLEs were great, though. Just work hard on your exams and you won't need anything else.

[Miklos]

I have a friend who is an IMG and got over 20 interviews at TOP programs(including Harvard and Yale). No one excluded him because of being from a foreign/ Caribbean med school. His USMLEs were great, though. Just work hard on your exams and you won't need anything else.

Not so fast...

Superficially this may be the case, however please take a look at the following.

Harvard sponsors four residency programs in Psychiatry see

http://www.hmcnet.harvard.edu/psych/education/

1) Massachusetts General Hospital/McLean Hospital Adult Residency Training Program (some believe this to be the best program in the nation). It is arguably the most competitive, receiving something on the order of 500 applications a year, for about 100 interviews of which 16 residents are choosen. It is to my knowledge, entirely AMG.

2) Harvard Longwood Psychiatry Residency Training Program

The PGY1 residents at Harvard Longwood are all AMGs. In fact, the only IMGs I can spot are a PGY3 from Sackler and two PGY4s from the former USSR with what appears to be PhDs (when spots where less competitive).

See http://healthcare.partners.org/longwoodpsych/The%20FINALPAGES/pe_res.html

3) The Cambridge Health Alliance Residency Training Program; I can't find info on the residents.

4) Harvard South Shore Adult Residency Training Program. This program, though "Harvard" is the newest program. It is known to interview IMGs.

So, at which of these programs did your "friend" interview?

Re: Yale. Take a look at this, when it comes to restrictions. http://www.med.yale.edu/psych/education/resident/Intlmedgrads.pdf

Re: strong psychotherapy programs. Cornell is considered a top program. Take a long look at their resident list. http://nycornell.org/psychiatry/residency/residents.html

Not only is the entire program AMG, look at the undergrad and medical schools of the residents.

IMO, you do not know the situation well enough to make a blanket statement such as "Just work hard on your exams and you won't need anything else."

Simply getting good board scores is no longer enough. Please don't mislead anyone.

Miklos

[markglt]

do all you can to stay in the U.S., going abroad is a last option

[JTP73]

So I decided that I really want to become a psychiatrist.

Looking at the numbers, the odds are against me for getting into an American med school -- not impossible, but not terrific either. I intend to apply to as many American schools as possible in my first round of applications, with international schools as my safeties (Caribbean, probably, tho I've always wanted to live in England or Ireland).

My question is, if I don't get into an American school on the first round, should I reapply in the next application cycle or just go to an international school? Are statistics available for people who reapplied? I'll be 24 when I enter med school if I get in on my first try, so postponing for a year won't matter much. Still, I don't have much work experience, and would likely spend the delay time doing something boring so I can pay the bills. (The things I want to do besides psychiatry don't pay well...it would probably be better to take sabbaticals once I'm fully practicing.)

Furthermore, I know that it's not much of a hassle to get into psychiatry as an IMG. Still, I wonder if I'd be limiting my choices unnecessarily, since I want a residency that includes a strong program in psychotherapy...

As a side note, I'm jumping the gun by about a year on my future in medicine and procrastinating on a project that was due last week. Feel free to make fun of me...

I've worked as a therapist for the past five years, and I have been around psychiatrists quite a bit. Unless you can get a booming business "private pay only", expect to be an assembly line script writer. Most of the clients that you will see with SMI (severe, mental illness) will be Medicaid/Medicare, and you will do little to no psychotherapy. For the privately insured, expect, as a psychiatrist, to spend little time with them doing any therapeutic work. If you want to do more than med management, (ie, therapy), you will have to create a special population niche to "corner a market" of people who can afford to pay high dollar for combined med management/psychotherapy. The most you will do as an "insurance only" psychiatrist is quickly evaluate, write scripts, manage meds, maybe provide some psychoeducation, and refer to people like me who get paid less, but actually have time to do some decent work. Psychiatry is no longer what it once used to be...

[wolfvgang22]

I've worked as a therapist for the past five years, and I have been around psychiatrists quite a bit.
Hey, me too! That's what I did before teaching. 8)

Unless you can get a booming business "private pay only", expect to be an assembly line script writer. Most of the clients that you will see with SMI (severe, mental illness) will be Medicaid/Medicare, and you will do little to no psychotherapy. For the privately insured, expect, as a psychiatrist, to spend little time with them doing any therapeutic work. If you want to do more than med management, (ie, therapy), you will have to create a special population niche to "corner a market" of people who can afford to pay high dollar for combined med management/psychotherapy. The most you will do as an "insurance only" psychiatrist is quickly evaluate, write scripts, manage meds, maybe provide some psychoeducation, and refer to people like me who get paid less, but actually have time to do some decent work. Psychiatry is no longer what it once used to be...
Exactly. I have been thinking about it myself, hoping that it may be possible to do a little counseling with select patients. Also, it's a good lifestyle specialty. The more I get into medicine, though, the more I like other fields as well.
Are you planning on being a psychiatrist?

[JTP73]

I've worked as a therapist for the past five years, and I have been around psychiatrists quite a bit.
Hey, me too! That's what I did before teaching. 8)

Unless you can get a booming business "private pay only", expect to be an assembly line script writer. Most of the clients that you will see with SMI (severe, mental illness) will be Medicaid/Medicare, and you will do little to no psychotherapy. For the privately insured, expect, as a psychiatrist, to spend little time with them doing any therapeutic work. If you want to do more than med management, (ie, therapy), you will have to create a special population niche to "corner a market" of people who can afford to pay high dollar for combined med management/psychotherapy. The most you will do as an "insurance only" psychiatrist is quickly evaluate, write scripts, manage meds, maybe provide some psychoeducation, and refer to people like me who get paid less, but actually have time to do some decent work. Psychiatry is no longer what it once used to be...
Exactly. I have been thinking about it myself, hoping that it may be possible to do a little counseling with select patients. Also, it's a good lifestyle specialty. The more I get into medicine, though, the more I like other fields as well.
Are you planning on being a psychiatrist?

You know, I am so uncertain at this point in time. I've been encouraged by many colleagues, psychiatrists with whom I've worked, etc, but... right now I just hope to be able to afford to go to school.

I am going to find my niche, I am certain, likely while in rotations. The wisdom I have gained from inpt, outpt psych, as well as about 3,000 ER psych evals has been tremendous and will form the foundation of whatever I end up doing.

And you? How is it that a person like you (who seems to like everything that they do,) will come a conclusion about one area in medicine? :wink: Just my thoughts...

JP

[wolfvgang22]

Sent you a PM, JP

[FLK]

I have a friend who is an IMG and got over 20 interviews at TOP programs(including Harvard and Yale). No one excluded him because of being from a foreign/ Caribbean med school. His USMLEs were great, though. Just work hard on your exams and you won't need anything else.

Not so fast...

Superficially this may be the case, however please take a look at the following.

Harvard sponsors four residency programs in Psychiatry see

http://www.hmcnet.harvard.edu/psych/education/

1) Massachusetts General Hospital/McLean Hospital Adult Residency Training Program (some believe this to be the best program in the nation). It is arguably the most competitive, receiving something on the order of 500 applications a year, for about 100 interviews of which 16 residents are choosen. It is to my knowledge, entirely AMG.

2) Harvard Longwood Psychiatry Residency Training Program

The PGY1 residents at Harvard Longwood are all AMGs. In fact, the only IMGs I can spot are a PGY3 from Sackler and two PGY4s from the former USSR with what appears to be PhDs (when spots where less competitive).

See http://healthcare.partners.org/longwoodpsych/The%20FINALPAGES/pe_res.html

3) The Cambridge Health Alliance Residency Training Program; I can't find info on the residents.

4) Harvard South Shore Adult Residency Training Program. This program, though "Harvard" is the newest program. It is known to interview IMGs.

So, at which of these programs did your "friend" interview?

Re: Yale. Take a look at this, when it comes to restrictions. http://www.med.yale.edu/psych/education/resident/Intlmedgrads.pdf

Re: strong psychotherapy programs. Cornell is considered a top program. Take a long look at their resident list. http://nycornell.org/psychiatry/residency/residents.html

Not only is the entire program AMG, look at the undergrad and medical schools of the residents.

IMO, you do not know the situation well enough to make a blanket statement such as "Just work hard on your exams and you won't need anything else."

Simply getting good board scores is no longer enough. Please don't mislead anyone.

Miklos

That's it, you've done it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you've cracked the secret!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a bias against Foreign medical graduates!!!!!!!!!!!!


PS: this scenario is as old as dirt.
A friend from my class ( who went to EEEEEEEEEEEEEngland for his 3rd yer ) got a residency in Anesthesiology at Haaavard ( not an affiliate....the Mother ship )
This was back in 1996, when anybody with a pulse could get a residency in Anesthesiology, since most of the programs went unfilled due to a slow job market and US grads not wanting a career in a slow job market ( and Hillary saying we should do primary care )
My other friend in my class that wanted anesthesiology, matched at Baylor College of Medicine.

Fast forwad 3 years.
Suddenly anesthesiology job market is RED HOT and US grads all want to match in anesthesiology.
Suddenly, FMG's are having trouble getting residency spots in community hospitals.

DId some bias suddenly appear? Nope. It was always there, but when you have nobody else to take and seed qualified people to fill your programs, then you take what you can get. This is a blanket statement but by and large it holds water.
There are always exceptions since there are always PD's that value quality of applicant over hoopla and will take a Ross grad etc over somebody from a US school into a competative program based on talent and not the name on the degree. So when people say " go well and things ttake care of themselves, this is still true. Anyway, if there is bias against you WITH a 230+ USMLE, imagine life with a 180. Get it?

So right now psych is hot? I find that hard to believe. Salries aren't high enough and thanks to Managed care, not going to get better ( only worse )
I can't be convinced of a "lifestyle choice" when reimbursement is going South. US grads have the pick of the litter in terms of career options. I guess I just find it hard that primary care will ever again be "red hot" sine reimbursements are dwindling and US grads are for the most part about the bucks.
Now if you told me interventional radiology or ENT was getting competative, then I would be more inclined to believe you, but looking in the phone book for MD psychiatry, all I can find are names I can't pronounce....yalamanchillimathallayapam, akhhhhhmed, etc

Anyway, in 3-4 years there will be a glut of psych residency grads and by the time Wolfie is graduating and applying for his psych residency I am sure Harvard and Yale will be lining up to kiss his tush since the US grads will find something else " hot" ( this is the age old cycle of residencies )

But if my man wolf is as cooll as I know him to be he'll be choosing some place deep in the Heart of Texas ,and just saying No thanks to Yankee-land. After all, if you want nutty people, go to Texas.
Since the Red Socks won, I am sure need for psychoanalysis in the Greater Boston area has gone way down.


I will make a prediction that getting a psych residency for a well qualified person ( by that I mean good grades, LOR and good USMLE scores ...who can interview and not manage to offend the interviewers with militant views or smelly armpits concealed with cheap and MASSIVE cologne ) that wants a career in psychiatry ( or FP, IM, Peds ) who attends SABA will NEVER become impossible. It will never happen. There will always be spots, perhaps at the expense of the grads from India or Syria etc ( who cares, why should US citizens that pay taxes support foreigners anyway, when there are US applicants....even from foreign schools)

You may not get the Harvard Spot mentioned above, but given the 500 applicants for 16 spots, I don't think even the all of Harvard Medical school grads that want it will get it.
You will get some spot somewhere in a good program. No doubt....and who knows, in 4 years, the US grads will probably have moved on to something else, and maybe wolf will be at Harvard impressing them with his Texas accent

[Miklos]

That's it, you've done it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you've cracked the secret!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a bias against Foreign medical graduates!!!!!!!!!!!!


PS: this scenario is as old as dirt.
A friend from my class ( who went to EEEEEEEEEEEEEngland for his 3rd yer ) got a residency in Anesthesiology at Haaavard ( not an affiliate....the Mother ship )
This was back in 1996, when anybody with a pulse could get a residency in Anesthesiology, since most of the programs went unfilled due to a slow job market and US grads not wanting a career in a slow job market ( and Hillary saying we should do primary care )
My other friend in my class that wanted anesthesiology, matched at Baylor College of Medicine.

Fast forwad 3 years.
Suddenly anesthesiology job market is RED HOT and US grads all want to match in anesthesiology.
Suddenly, FMG's are having trouble getting residency spots in community hospitals.

DId some bias suddenly appear? Nope. It was always there, but when you have nobody else to take and seed qualified people to fill your programs, then you take what you can get. This is a blanket statement but by and large it holds water.
There are always exceptions since there are always PD's that value quality of applicant over hoopla and will take a Ross grad etc over somebody from a US school into a competative program based on talent and not the name on the degree. So when people say " go well and things ttake care of themselves, this is still true. Anyway, if there is bias against you WITH a 230+ USMLE, imagine life with a 180. Get it?

So right now psych is hot? I find that hard to believe. Salries aren't high enough and thanks to Managed care, not going to get better ( only worse )
I can't be convinced of a "lifestyle choice" when reimbursement is going South. US grads have the pick of the litter in terms of career options. I guess I just find it hard that primary care will ever again be "red hot" sine reimbursements are dwindling and US grads are for the most part about the bucks.
Now if you told me interventional radiology or ENT was getting competative, then I would be more inclined to believe you, but looking in the phone book for MD psychiatry, all I can find are names I can't pronounce....yalamanchillimathallayapam, akhhhhhmed, etc

Anyway, in 3-4 years there will be a glut of psych residency grads and by the time Wolfie is graduating and applying for his psych residency I am sure Harvard and Yale will be lining up to kiss his tush since the US grads will find something else " hot" ( this is the age old cycle of residencies )

But if my man wolf is as cooll as I know him to be he'll be choosing some place deep in the Heart of Texas ,and just saying No thanks to Yankee-land. After all, if you want nutty people, go to Texas.
Since the Red Socks won, I am sure need for psychoanalysis in the Greater Boston area has gone way down.


I will make a prediction that getting a psych residency for a well qualified person ( by that I mean good grades, LOR and good USMLE scores ...who can interview and not manage to offend the interviewers with militant views or smelly armpits concealed with cheap and MASSIVE cologne ) that wants a career in psychiatry ( or FP, IM, Peds ) who attends SABA will NEVER become impossible. It will never happen. There will always be spots, perhaps at the expense of the grads from India or Syria etc ( who cares, why should US citizens that pay taxes support foreigners anyway, when there are US applicants....even from foreign schools)

You may not get the Harvard Spot mentioned above, but given the 500 applicants for 16 spots, I don't think even the all of Harvard Medical school grads that want it will get it.
You will get some spot somewhere in a good program. No doubt....and who knows, in 4 years, the US grads will probably have moved on to something else, and maybe wolf will be at Harvard impressing them with his Texas accent

All good points. (The reason that those folks have unpronouncable last names is that they got their residencies back when Psych would only fill with about 40% of US Seniors.)

I think that the difference of opinion is precisely how you define 'good' and 'best'.

Steph posted (in the relaxing lounge thread) that USIMGs can currently attain the 'best' Psychiatry residencies. You are correct in saying that in time, when Psych is no longer on the lifestyle choice du jour menu, wolf may well be impressing them at MGH.

I'm will be curious as to whether the trend in Psychiatry continues. I'll have to wait till next week when the NRMP releases this year's match results.

Miklos

[azskeptic]

Well, if you want to work with patients and not just medicate, practice in areas like Scottsdale, Beverly Hills, San Francisco and work with rich clients. These people go weekly or even more for therapy.

azskeptic

[Miklos]

Well, if you want to work with patients and not just medicate, practice in areas like Scottsdale, Beverly Hills, San Francisco and work with rich clients. These people go weekly or even more for therapy.

azskeptic

az,

As is usual, you've hit the heart of the matter.


Practice Patterns of International and U.S. Medical Graduate Psychiatrists
Carlos Blanco, M.D., Ph.D., Cletus Carvalho, M.D., Mark Olfson, M.D., M.P.H., Molly Finnerty, M.D., and Harold Alan Pincus, M.D.

OBJECTIVE: The practice patterns of international medical graduate (IMG) and U.S. medical graduate (USMG) psychiatrists were compared. METHOD: Using data from the 1996 National Survey of Psychiatric Practice, the authors compared IMGs and USMGs in terms of demographic characteristics, practice settings, patients' clinical characteristics, and sources of reimbursement. RESULTS: The IMGs surveyed tended to be older than USMGs, included a higher proportion of women, and were more racially heterogeneous. They worked longer hours, worked more frequently in the public sector, and treated a higher proportion of patients with psychotic disorders. The IMGs also received a higher percentage of their income than USMGs from Medicaid and Medicare, whereas the reverse was true of self-payment. Most of these differences remained significant after psychiatrist's age, gender, race, board certification, and work setting were controlled for. CONCLUSIONS: IMG and USMG psychiatrists have different practice patterns. Policies that substantially decrease the number of IMG psychiatrists may adversely affect the availability of psychiatrists to treat minorities and other underserved populations. (Am J Psychiatry 1999; 156:445–450)

(For free full PDF text see http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/156/3/445 )

What does this mean, in real terms?

The training that one receives at different psychiatry residency programs varies. In contrast to say Cornell, where the residents are exposed to some of the 'best' psychotherapy training, IMGs/FMGs at community based programs will not have that advantage.

When it comes to marketing oneself to those who are able to pay out of pocket, guess who has a marked advantage?

Please note that I'm not advocating one pattern of practice over the other (in fact, my goal would be a mixed practice), however the OP on this thread specifically asked about programs that are strong in psychotherapy.

Miklos

[azskeptic]

Well, if you want to work with patients and not just medicate, practice in areas like Scottsdale, Beverly Hills, San Francisco and work with rich clients. These people go weekly or even more for therapy.

azskeptic

az,

As is usual, you've hit the heart of the matter.


Practice Patterns of International and U.S. Medical Graduate Psychiatrists
Carlos Blanco, M.D., Ph.D., Cletus Carvalho, M.D., Mark Olfson, M.D., M.P.H., Molly Finnerty, M.D., and Harold Alan Pincus, M.D.

OBJECTIVE: The practice patterns of international medical graduate (IMG) and U.S. medical graduate (USMG) psychiatrists were compared. METHOD: Using data from the 1996 National Survey of Psychiatric Practice, the authors compared IMGs and USMGs in terms of demographic characteristics, practice settings, patients' clinical characteristics, and sources of reimbursement. RESULTS: The IMGs surveyed tended to be older than USMGs, included a higher proportion of women, and were more racially heterogeneous. They worked longer hours, worked more frequently in the public sector, and treated a higher proportion of patients with psychotic disorders. The IMGs also received a higher percentage of their income than USMGs from Medicaid and Medicare, whereas the reverse was true of self-payment. Most of these differences remained significant after psychiatrist's age, gender, race, board certification, and work setting were controlled for. CONCLUSIONS: IMG and USMG psychiatrists have different practice patterns. Policies that substantially decrease the number of IMG psychiatrists may adversely affect the availability of psychiatrists to treat minorities and other underserved populations. (Am J Psychiatry 1999; 156:445–450)

What does this mean, in real terms?

The training that one receives at different psychiatry residency programs varies. In contrast to say Cornell, where the residents are exposed to some of the 'best' psychotherapy training, IMGs/FMGs at community based programs will not have that advantage.

When it comes to marketing oneself to those who are able to pay out of pocket, guess who has a marked advantage?

Please note that I'm not advocating one pattern of practice over the other (in fact, my goal would be a mixed practice), however the OP on this thread specifically asked about programs that are strong in psychotherapy.

Miklos

Everything that I read says that the psychiatrist of the future will be given even more tools to work with in terms of brain chemistry. But there is a place for someone to listen and give advice and who is better than a doctor? Growing up in rural Missouri my family doc, Dr. Goldberg, was the advisor to everyone in the community. You wouldn't make a major decision without having talked to him about it if it related to your child's education or health. An amazing man...he had pictures of every one of us who he had delivered and knew us all by name and could even show you, your picture. But what is to prevent anyone who likes to work with patients 'intellectually' from doing it? Just tailor your practice and setting to do it. Don't get sucked into the assembly line of medicine that many seem to. Money isn't everything in life but feeling good about yourself and your contribution to society will make you feel rich.

[IMbound]

Interesting posts so far. Speaking specifically to graeme2004, I have a friend at SGU who is an MSIV there, like myself, and applied for psych and got an interview at Yale. She had more interviews than she could go to all at univ. programs. It still is NOT competitive. I truly believe if you go to SGU, do well on the steps, get good letters, you can get into wonderful programs. Now, as a previous writer said, if you are looking for ENT, ortho, optho, rads, rad onc, Uro, plastics, derm, you definetely want to try to get into a US school. For IM, Peds, Psych, FP, you'll be fine at SGU.

[wolfvgang22]

Anyway, in 3-4 years there will be a glut of psych residency grads and by the time Wolfie is graduating and applying for his psych residency I am sure Harvard and Yale will be lining up to kiss his tush since the US grads will find something else " hot" ( this is the age old cycle of residencies )

But if my man wolf is as cooll as I know him to be he'll be choosing some place deep in the Heart of Texas ,and just saying No thanks to Yankee-land. After all, if you want nutty people, go to Texas.
Since the Red Socks won, I am sure need for psychoanalysis in the Greater Boston area has gone way down.


I will make a prediction that getting a psych residency for a well qualified person ( by that I mean good grades, LOR and good USMLE scores ...who can interview and not manage to offend the interviewers with militant views or smelly armpits concealed with cheap and MASSIVE cologne ) that wants a career in psychiatry ( or FP, IM, Peds ) who attends SABA will NEVER become impossible. It will never happen.
:lol: That's the funniest thing I've read all day, thanks FLK! :lol:
I was corresponding with a Saba grad who is working in psych at NYU Cornell, so it's doable.
The numbers have shown that psych is getting somewhat more popular for whatever reasons. It's not a 3-alarm red alert situation, and my friend at Cornell says one should just go and get the high board scores regardless so there is never a worry about matching in competitive spots.

Everything that I read says that the psychiatrist of the future will be given even more tools to work with in terms of brain chemistry. But there is a place for someone to listen and give advice and who is better than a doctor? Growing up in rural Missouri my family doc, Dr. Goldberg, was the advisor to everyone in the community. You wouldn't make a major decision without having talked to him about it if it related to your child's education or health. An amazing man...he had pictures of every one of us who he had delivered and knew us all by name and could even show you, your picture. But what is to prevent anyone who likes to work with patients 'intellectually' from doing it? Just tailor your practice and setting to do it. Don't get sucked into the assembly line of medicine that many seem to. Money isn't everything in life but feeling good about yourself and your contribution to society will make you feel rich.
Yeah, that's the way I wanna be...at least right now before the system sucks all my idealism out of me...:lol:
It's not just about "whoever dies with the most toys wins", after all. But I do want to be able to pay for my kids college, which my parents were unable to do for their children. 8)

[Chemist_11]

HI,
looking at trinity college dublin's and the royal college of surgeons ireland, you should be aware that if you are an american, it is extreamly hard to get rotations in the UK, this being due to the fact that the GMC of the UK and Ireland offer first refusal to EU students 100% of the time. Also, if you cant get into an american university, you have no chance of getting into one in the UK, as if you look at the student doctor forums, applicants from the UK can have AAAA at advanced level (which is e.g. biology 75%+, chemistry 75%+, mathematics at 75%+. and 1 other subject.

As for the UK 4 year accelerated programes in the UK, intake is small, and often, places are only given to dentists who wish to persue a career in facial surgery.

Good luck

Daniel

[wolfvgang22]

HI,
looking at trinity college dublin's and the royal college of surgeons ireland, you should be aware that if you are an american, it is extreamly hard to get rotations in the UK, this being due to the fact that the GMC of the UK and Ireland offer first refusal to EU students 100% of the time. Also, if you cant get into an american university, you have no chance of getting into one in the UK, as if you look at the student doctor forums, applicants from the UK can have AAAA at advanced level (which is e.g. biology 75%+, chemistry 75%+, mathematics at 75%+. and 1 other subject.

As for the UK 4 year accelerated programes in the UK, intake is small, and often, places are only given to dentists who wish to persue a career in facial surgery.

Good luck

DanielSome caribbean schools (AUC, SGU, Saba, etc.) already have affiliations in place with clinical rotaton sites in the UK, Dan, so it's not a problem. I think perhaps you misunderstood this thread, posted on the wrong thread, or were unaware of the the aforementioned fact.

[Miklos]

I was corresponding with a Saba grad who is working in psych at NYU Cornell, so it's doable.

In a residency??? (or as an attending???)

Where is this grad? I can't see a Saba grad listed.

http://www.nycornell.org/psychiatry/residency/residents.html

[wolfvgang22]

The individual is listed on the Saba residency/alumni website, I'll send you a PM as TOS prevent me from posting much more here.
Cheers! -W

[Miklos]

The individual is listed on the Saba residency/alumni website, I'll send you a PM as <a href=http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php>TOS</a> prevent me from posting much more here.
Cheers! -W

Note to others. Wolf did provide me with his name and he is in fact listed on the Saba alumni page.

However, there are a couple things one should keep in mind.

1) I'm sure he had good stats.

2) He matched to Yale in 2001. Then only 56.2% of pysch residencies were filled by US Seniors through the NRMP. (This has increased to 63.6% this year.)

3) He didn't match to a PGY1 spot at NY Cornell, he got a child psych fellowship. Generally speaking, child psych is considered wide open. Yes, there is a difference.

Miklos

[wolfvgang22]

The individual is listed on the Saba residency/alumni website, I'll send you a PM as <a href=http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php><a href=http://www.valuemd.com/disclaimer.php>TOS</a></a> prevent me from posting much more here.
Cheers! -W

Note to others. Wolf did provide me with his name and he is in fact listed on the Saba alumni page.

However, there are a couple things one should keep in mind.

1) I'm sure he had good stats.

2) He matched to Yale in 2001. Then only 56.2% of pysch residencies were filled by US Seniors through the NRMP. (This has increased to 63.6% this year.)

3) He didn't match to a PGY1 spot at NY Cornell, he got a child psych fellowship. Generally speaking, child psych is considered wide open. Yes, there is a difference.

MiklosI would be ecstatic to have a number one and do a number two. :D

[neilc]

I would be ecstatic to have a number one and do a number two. :D

doing a number two is strictly agains TOS on this website....sorry, keep it in the bathroom, fella! :P :D